Is Islam Anti-Semitic?

drum
//...Where are the hot spots in extremist Islam? CHECHNYA, PALESTINE, IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN....//

Wrong! Hot spots are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. That`s where lie the jiahd breeding factories - the ground zero of islamic extremism.

Chechnya: The western position is actually favored towards chechens. It`s the russians who are miffed - because the west asks them to talk with chechens.

Palestine: if israeli soldier pumped 20 bullets into a palestine girl - there are also israeli girls who have been blown to pieces by palestine suicide bomber. The match is even here- so the less said, the better. Moreover - the europeans are favored towards palestine, even though US is not. So the ``West`` is not single block on this one.

Afgan: this one is the ``good`` war. Taliban had to be decimated. Afgans just voted in first ever election. Yeah, we know it was flawed.

Iraq: the jury is still out on this one - but this one certainly looks like a ``bad`` war. Again - europeans were against it from the beginning.

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Anycase - if and when the next big terror bang strikes the ``west`` , it may not be by Palis, chechens, iraqis or afganis. You could bet it`s going to be another bunch of Saudis and Pakis.

drumz

``WHere are Extremists most prevelent? ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS in areas where jobs are minimal and hope is lost``

Why are Catholic terrorists not coming out of the slums of Manila, why are Hindu suicide bombers coming out of the slums of Calcutta, why are Buddhist terrorists from Nepal not flying Airplanes into New York?

Hmmm....i wonder why....

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Drum
//Simply because i dont give a sh1t about what most muslims think...//

I thought you did. Otherwise why would this discussion start in the first place??

Anyway - my point was that, those who are giving elaborate excuses for backwardness of muslims should turn their energies inward. Instead of railing against those who point out the obvious flaws - they must spend time to create an awareness about the mindless orthodoxy that is so prevalent among the muslim communities. Saudi Arabia is a good place to start.

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//...Why are you not bringing up the terrorism of the west such as that of america and britain?...//

Because I don`t have to. Westerners themselves are already doing it - millions of british have marched against war in Iraq - Tony Blair is already on the dock for this mis-adventure, he might loose his job for this. At least 50% of the americans think war in iraq has gone horribly wrong - there is a chance that they may give Bush the boot.

If mistakes and mis-adventures were not being punished and corrected, the West wouldn`t be where it is now.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said about muslims - they are frozen in time and slipping back further.

Arjun: The thing here is that I may be against bin laden HOWEVER if you look at a broader context, 9/11 was detined to happen. I am not necessarily glad that innocent people died during the 9/11 attacks however I am glad that for once the real terrorists got a taste of their medicine.

I know a lot of muslims are too scared to say that these days but fukk it. There is no country in the history of the world which has caused more death and destruction then america has. That bin laden or whoever touched america up is simply karma.Infact, if i was living in palestine and i had just seen my family being killed via american made bombs i would probably be a ``terrorist`` too.

I urge u again to name one Muslim hot spot for terrorism which is not economically or politically backward and currupt. Name one.

Ive already shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that these actions done by al Qaeda and others are ECONOMICAL and politcial not religious. That they use the banner of Islam im sure does fool those who arent critical thinkers.

As for your story, there are millions of people just like her who decide to get an education and what not. That may be the better way to go. However, tell that to the father of the 13 year old palestinian girl who was shot up 20 times by some israeli. Tell him to get his kiddies a better education. Sh1t If i was that man i would sign up the next day with hezbollah.

Mohar: In dealing with spirituality, it is best for us to refine ourselves then to waste our time trying to show others the light. I did, when i was muslim, try to spread some tolerance, but the thing though is most muslims are fairly tolerant people (the desis i come accross, i dono much about the saudis). The problem with them and the problem with nearly all religious people is that they do not allow thmselves to think outside of their religion.

Religious people believe there is just one true religion .... and of course it just so happened that they were born into that religion. To argue with a person as breathtakingly stupid as this would make a reasonable person just as foolish.

Why do i not run around to saudi arabia and preach tolerant Islam? Simply because i dont give a sh1t about what most muslims think. If people want to blindly follow some dead man then its upto them.

There is a sufi saying ``the river leads to the ocean, do not confuse the river for the ocean.`` Religion MAY lead to the absolute, that doesnt make religion absolute though. Because i recognise that notion, i dont waste my time trying to preserve or purify an inherently curruptING system.

Now, dont cloudy up the issue by bringing up who the financers of these ``jihads`` are. Where are the hot spots in extremist Islam? CHECHNYA, PALESTINE, IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN. Hmmmm. Not try and connect the dots and find out why is it that extremists are prevelent here and not elsewhere? U think the economy and politics have anything to do with it?

And i do ask you again sir, Why are you not bringing up the terrorism of the west such as that of america and britain? Is their terrorism okay because they are white, or because they are christian or is it okay because they confuse us by calling their terrorism ``war``?

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Perhaps what is required to be done is to draw a distinction between Islam, one of the 5 major world religions, and Islamism, a political doctrine subscribed to a very miniscule minority of Muslims.

Arjun: The best thing someone of a lesser mind should do is never address me with their paki vs india and Hindu vs Muslim crap. The vast majority of the people on his site are of a lesser mind so they blindly end up supporting the nation they were born into or the religion they were born into. This requires no thinking. You guys are blind robots.

And no im not a jihadi apologist. In fact I bet i can argue both yours and his points better then you guys can. Your just baised robots. If you were born in pakistan you would be supporting islam.

And who says india is poorer then pakistan? Thats nonsense. Why do these mullahs have such a strong hold on poor pakistani`s? THINK ABOUT IT. The current government does nothing for pakistani children. The mullahs give them an education (be it a very biased and ignorant one).

Terrorists are and have always been born as a DIRECT result of POVERTY (be it percieved or actual). You are correct that suadis are well off. Ill also add that most suicide bombers in the occupied territories are well off. That does NOT negate the fact that they believe they are fighting for a people who are oppressed.

``THE BATTLE OF THE POOR IS TERRORISM, The Battle of the rich is war``

By the way: How do you arrive at the figures for terrorist per capita? Are the americans not terrorists? Are the bristish not terrorists? Or are all terrorists actions limited to Muslims?

drum
//...Spain was not the only advanced muslim nation. Baghdad, Mali, Sufi India etc were ripe with scientific study and Islamic pluralism.But all that sh1t is discarded because it doesnt support your view point that islam is intolerant//

Take it easy man - I didn`t intend to discard anything. You have a good point. Baghdad, Mali(???), Sufism were/are shining examples of tolerant islam. Another example in present times is Islam/muslims in Indonesia, even though things are changing rapidly there , for the worst. Arabized Islam creeping into that country.

So instead of discarding these examples - I am actually encouraged by it. Because, it gives a frame of reference .... it may also give a platform to those would be reformers to reform islam and bring it back to the days of Spain, Baghdad, Mali, Sufism.

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//...This poverty creates the ATMOSPHERE for bin ladens etc to exist....//

Really? I thought bin laden is from billionaire family .... and from a country(saudi Arabia) whose per capita income at one point was higher than US. Come on - this theory of ``Poverty breeds islamic terrorism`` has been proved to be cr@p long time ago. In fact it is the opposite - islamic terrorism has been bred, fed, produced by the riches of Arab world, Saudis in particular.

And anycase - this is exactly what I am talking about. Excuses and more excuses. Instead of railing against ``ivory tower scholars`` for speaking the truth - you should be out there doing something else.

I mean, instead of laying this Baghda/Mali/Sufism sugar-candy on me - why don`t you spread it out in front of muslims at large??? Forget the silly ``ivory tower scholars`` - If you think Islam was tolerant/pluralistic at one point of time then why don`t spread that message loud and clear among muslim communities?? ........ Why don`t you call a town-hall meeting in Saudi Arabia and tell them - ``Folks, this is what we had at one point of time -remember Spain?? Now, Let`s go back to that, Let`s go back pluralism and modernity ... Kafirs are Allah`s children too ... Let women drive ... Let others pray their gods while they are in Saudi land ... Let`s go back to Sufism``.

And then come back and tell me how that meeting went. If you can come back at all, in one piece.

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Mohar: Ur selectively picking and choosing from history those incidences which support your preconcieved notions (this iz not scientific).

READ about Islamic history. You are conveniently refering to ur views on modern day islam an extrapolating them upon Islam as a whole. Spain was not the only advanced muslim nation. Baghdad, Mali, Sufi India etc were ripe with scientific study and Islamic pluralism. But all that sh1t is discarded because it doesnt support your view point that islam is intolerant.

Now Let me ask you WHY did the islamic world change. Why did baghdad of 500 years ago be baghdad of today? Which one represents Islam? Why? Ill Give u a hint. This sh1t has less to do with religion and more to do with politics and the economy.

It disgusts me to see all these ivory tower ``scholars`` chastise those who literally have nothing. Is the ``islamic world`` not spiritually refined enuff for you? Perhaps that because mufukkas are living largely in poverty. WHen ur azz doesnt have food to eat, you arent really concerned with theology. Put on the thinking caps, This poverty creates the ATMOSPHERE for bin ladens etc to exist.

WHere are Extremists most prevelent? ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS in areas where jobs are minimal and hope is lost. Perhaps if you took off your blinders youd se what is glaringly obvious.

Oh by the way. I almost threw up when i read your last post. Do you actually believe what you wrote or are u someones nickname? Christiajnity is one of the most peaceloving nations? And how did the mighty christians get all the funds to be able to waste their time on silly issues such as spirituality?

MERCANTILSIM, IMPERIALISM and COLONIALISM.

``Divide, conqure, pillage and rape / and a lil bit of slavery is what made America great``

drum
//....Christianity is infact theologically more exclusive then islam and has been responsible for far more destruction/death etc....//

Exactly my point. And yet, as matters stand today - christianity is one of the most peace-loving religions ... progressive, accommodating, charitable. Christian-majority nations are advanced, developed, secular, minority-friendly where freedom rules and basic human rights are well-protected.

Why? Because the way majority of christians behave - the way they understand the basics of religion and spirituality - they way they conduct their societies - the way they have built some of the most advanced nations and civilizations in the history of the mankind - their enormous contributions towards science, arts, culture - their contributions towards progress of humanity in general - both in terms of men and material.

So how did this happen? How did christians who are ``theologically more exclusive and responsible for far more destruction/death`` reach where they are today? How did they transform themselves from the dark ages to being the beacon of light?

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As for the rest of your post - it wasn`t clear at all .... something about difficulty in arguing against fundamentalist Islam.

Mohar: Im trying hard to suppress my arrogance here but Im shocked that these dudes havent destroyed your arguments yet.

Christianity is infact theologically more exclusive then islam and has been responsible for far more destruction/death etc...

I am quite shocked at how DIFFICULT it is for a lot of you to argue against fundamentalist Islam. This should be a very quick very easy debate but fools cant stop muddying up the topic.

#44
//...Would they be diametrically opposed to your current posts? ..//

Sure. From what I have read in Chowk - Islam in Spain was moderate and progressive. If that is true and if we consider Spain in isolation ( because during the same period of time, islam as practiced elsewhere probably was not that progressive) then of course, Islam will come out in a different light.

I mean - this is a no-brainer. This is true for other religions too. There were periods when christianity was full of sh!t - inquistions, pogroms, violent campaigns to convert people and what not. ..... But today it`s vastly different. The difference is entirely because of the way the christians practiced their beliefs then and they way they practice it now.

43
//....That`s a broad assumption to make...//

May be. But at this point, I willing to take that risk. May be that`s what it needs to force people like you to move your collective lazy-a$$es and do some reform from inside and do some critical thinking ...... instead of crying foul everytime someone gave you a whiff of the mess that`s festering under the carpet for so long. This is something you folks should have done by yourselves anyaway .... years ago.

Painted with the broad brush - you would have then no place to hide - no more excuses to give .... may be that will give you guys a kickstart to get going to clean up the mess.

So the over-generalization may not be a bad thing after all, at least in this case.