Is Islam Anti-Semitic?

The damage in terms of brainwashing is full and complete as far as this generation and may be the next one is concerned. Hyderabadi drivers to Pastun tribesman voice concern for Palestinians , I wonder how many Arabs cared about the Afghan civil war and its aftermath other than to throw fuel over the smoldering flames.

DUDE GIBRAN

All that we know of the peoples of the Middle east suggests that both ancient jews as well as arabs are semitic. Modern day jews while they may have a greater proportion of european blood in them still celebrate their semitic roots , which is not entirely different from the Arab semitic identity .

Article by Gibran Bham:

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Its like John coming to Peter’s 5 bedroom house, throwing Peter into the wash room, while enjoying the T.V., radio and warm, comfy beds.
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Sometimes it is wise to walk a little in the other party`s mocasins.

Cooler tempers might prevail if an Arab mulls over what he would have done in 1948 if he were a holocaust survivor. Wouldn`t he have done everything in his power to defeat the Arab armies that invaded Israel?

More importantly, an Arab might want to mull over the fact that Palestine was a two-way street at that moment in history. Yes, many a Palestinian ( 0.5 million) fled his ancestral home in the wake of Palestine`s partition. But at least an equal number of Jews got thrown out from Arab countries (from Morocco to Iraq) and even from Iran.

Today, the majority of Jews in Israel are Shephardic Jews most of whom have either lived in Palestine for centuries or are from Arab lands.

In fact, the downfall of the Labor Party in Israel and the rise of the hard line Likud is specifically related to this demographic mix - the better educated Ashkenazic Jews (of Yiddish heritage) yielding to the numerically dominant Shephardic Jews.

Needless to say, these Shephardic Jews have no reason to feel that they owe anything to the Palestinians who had lost their ancestral home. More importantly, the Shephardic Jews have genuine cause to resent the Arab countries that threw them out of their ancestral home in the aftermath of Palestine`s partition.

If an Arab mulls over the facts, I am sure he`ll see how illogical and unreasonable it was for him to denounce the Jewish people.

More importantly, he will realize how unreasonable are those that will not settle for peace for anything less than the Palestinians` right to return to their ancestral land.

One sided blind support for the Arab regimes that have persistently sought Israel`s obliteration right from day one, will not solve the problem.

Israel is a beleagured state. The Arab regimes have been baying for Israel`s blood for a long time. And they have the luxury of doing so because such beligerance does not affect the average Arab in the two dozen Arab states lying between Morocco and Iraq.

Tiny Israel, on the other hand, has been affected to the point where it is really weary to a person. It has a draft in place that affects not just the Israeli men but the women as well. Israelis would like to be left alone in peace because everyone of them has been affected in a way that can be comprehended by only a few of the quarter billion Arabs lying between Morocco and Iraq.

Israel wants real peace - not a tactical truce that would allow the Arab regimes to wait for an opportunity to obliterate Israel from the world map.

There is plenty of blame to go around in Palestine. But the Arab regimes are in no shape to absolve themselves of any blame.

(1) The Arab regimes did the Palestinian Arabs no favor by invading Israel on the morrow of the UN-sanctioned partition.

(2) The Arab regimes did the Palestinian Arabs no favor by failing to establish an independent Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza in the two decades they had till 1967.

(3) The Arab regimes did the Palestinian Arabs no favor by failing to absorb the refugees by giving them citizenship. The Palestinian Arabs were left to fester in refugee camps instead.

(4) The Arab regimes do Palestinian Arabs no favor by backing to the hilt the Palestinian Arabs` demand for the right of return to Israel. Israel has absorbed all the Jews thrown out of Arab lands in the afternmath of the partition of 1948. The Arab regimes would do well to absorb their share of refugees from the partition of Palestine instead of egging them on to stick to their demand for right of return.

Come to think of it, the half million Hindu Sindhis who were driven into exile at India`s partition have a far stronger cause for grievance than the half million Palestinians who went into exile at Palestine`s partition - the Palestinians can easily choose to be be at home in any of the 22 Arab countries who speak the same language as them. Such is not the case with the Hindu Sindhis who were forced into the Diaspora in 1947 and who must live in lands where the Sindhi language can at best try to survive unobtrusively in a non-Sindhi land.

good article. since you mentioned jewish history, you are aware of the persecution they faced and hence you can see where the paranoia for anti-semiticism comes from. needless to say, they attempt to attack anti-jewish criticism in non-violent ways, which gets refered to as zionist conspiracy by anti-semites.

good to see an acknowledgement of the status-quo power of israel and yearning for peace.

re: Gibran

The Israel-Palestinian conflict is perhaps the only time in history when all Muslims and Jews are polarized against each other.

But this polarization was not created by the Arabs alone. Yasser Arafat, for instance, is quite amenable to the idea of a secular Palestinian state in which Jews could become equal citizens, along with Muslims and Christians. Not all Palestinian Arabs want an Islamic Palestinian state.

If you consider the population ratio between Jews and Palestinians, it is adequately clear that a Palestinian state with a Jewish minority is much more practicable than an Israeli state with an Arab majority. Palestinians Arabs far outnumber the Israeli Jews in terms of population. Unlike Hindu-Muslim religious differences, there are very few religious differences between Jews and Muslims. In terms of theology, Judaism and Islam are closer to each other... than to Christianity. Both religions share the same roots -- to the grand patriarch, Hazrat Ibrahim (or Abraham, as the Old Testament refers to him).

There is no reason why both communities can`t coexist peacefully in a democratic, secular state of Palestine.

re: Gibran

This was a nice article. I may also add that Muslims provided a sanctuary to the Jews when they were haunted by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella in Spain. During the Spanish Inquisition, the Catholic Church and King Ferdinand launched a campaign of ethnic and religious cleansing. Moors (Muslims from North Africa) were either burnt at the cross or forced to flee the country. In addition, thousands of women (accused of witchcraft), Protestants and Jews met the same fate. During this period, millions of Jews fled to Muslim lands in North Africa, Middle East and Constantinople.

Even during Prophet Muhammad`s time, Jews and Muslims lived peacefully together when the Prophet migrated from Mecca to Medina. In fact, Prophet Muhammad concluded a treaty with the Jews under the auspices of Charter of Medina. Under this charter, Jews became partners in the Government of Medina and enjoyed religious freedoms.

This Charter stipulated that in the event of war, the Jewish and Muslim tribes would assist each other. Moreover, any tribe that betrayed the City of Medina would be punished according the customs of that time.

During the third battle between Meccans and Medinites, two Jewish tribes violated this Treaty and provided assistance to the Meccans. Despite the betrayal, the Medinites frustrated the Meccan attack. After the Meccan withdrawal, under the agreed Charter of Medina, all male members of the two Jewish tribes were sentenced to death. This sentence was pronounced by the Chief Jewish Representative of Medina.

Apart from a few similar incidents, there was mostly peace between Jews and Muslims until the 20th century. Even during the Crusades, Jews were largely left untouched by both the Muslims and Christians.

Gibran Bham:

I complement you to for raising a voice of sense in this atmosphere of antipathy and irrationalism at the Chowk.

I also complement the two respondents so far. One wishes the sense and understanding evident here can be further developed here and adopted in other discussions in Chowk.

The methodology of this article and exchange is sorely needed in a dozen discussions going on regarding India/Pakistan/Kashmir hornets` nest.

As nakhok has correctly pointed, the path to reconciliations has to be paved by understanding each other and acting to right the wrongs that were commited at the spur of the moment or at the instance of the deluded leaderships who acted for their own gains and egos.

Article by Gibran Barham:

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They conveniently conclude that Islam will never tolerate a Jewish state and therefore, peace is impossible with the Arabs.
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The israelis are not unaware of judgemental and cruel Koranic ``revealations`` like:

``Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.`` -- 5:51

``Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made your religion a jest and a pasttime.`` -- 5:57

``The Jews say: `God`s hand is chained.` May their own hands be chained! May they be cursed for what they say!`` -- 5:64

``Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued.`` -- 9:29

``The Jews call `Uzayr-a son of God`, and the Christinas call `Christ the Son Of God`. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are decluded away from the Truth. `` -- 9:30

An overwhelming majority of the Jews in Israel have encountered not just discrimination but even genocide. It is not unreasonable for the Israelis to vow, ``Never Again`` because they remember only too well not only the 20th century concentration camps but also the collective punishment meted out to the Jews in 7th century Arabia when the entire menfolk of a tribe (yes, all 800 of them!) were beheaded and all the women and girls were sold into slavery.

Article by Gibran Bham

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In reality, the conflict between the Muslims and Jews did not commence till the 20th century
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There are some who would argue, with a lot of justification, that Arab-Jew conflict goes way back to the time of Abraham and his sons Isaac and Ishmael. The conflict of interest between Abraham`s wife(Sarah) and the mistress(Hagar) never provided an environment to make it easy for Isaac and Ishmael to feel that they belonged to the same family even during Abraham`s lifetime:

http://www.torah.org/projects/genesis/topic6.html

excerpts:

..... God promised Abraham that his own progeny would inherit him. However, he did not promise that Sarah would necessarily be the mother of his child. And so, when it appeared that Sarah would remain barren, she offered to give her servant Hagar to Abraham with the understanding that the child of their union would be considered as Sarah`s and that Hagar would still remain as Sarah`s servant. .....

..... However once Hagar conceived she became contemptuous of Sarah who took forceful steps to put Hagar in her place, whereupon Hagar fled do the desert. .....

..... An angel of God spoke to Sarah, promising her a son for ``He has heard your suffering.`` At the same time Hagar was instructed to return and submit to her mistress.

When Sarah gave birth to Isaac it was clear that only Isaac would inherit his father. After the weaning party for Isaac, Ishmael scoffed. And Sarah once again complained to Abraham and demanded that Ishmael be driven away. Abraham was disturbed, but upon God`s intervention he heeded Sarah and sent Hagar and Ishmael away.

Once again an angel of God spoke to Hagar promising her that Ishmael would become ``a great nation.``

In both instances Sarah had good cause for being disturbed. First Hagar was given to Abraham with the understanding that their offspring would be Sarah`s child to reared under her guidance. Once Hagar disdained Sarah and her position, Sarah realized that it would be impossible for her to raise Ishmael--who at that point was thought to be Abraham`s successor--thus throwing into jeopardy the whole future of Abraham`s mission.

In the second instance when it was already clear that Isaac was Abraham`s true seed, Sarah had a new concern. Ishmael was a scoffer. He was sure to be a negative influence on Isaac in his delicate and crucial formative years. And so, Sarah demanded that Ishmael be banished from their home. Abraham was at first reluctant, but eventually complied with God`s admonition to heed Sarah`s warning.

God ordered Abraham to abandon his son, Ishmael, and Ishmael`s mother, Hagar, in a desolate desert. God also ordered Abraham to ``sacrifice`` his other son, Isaac, by cutting his throat with a knife.

Well, we have all heard that Abraham went ahead and complied with both the orders. And, fortunately, it was an era of miracles. Bizarre as they were, both incidents mercifully had happy endings.

But this is the 21st century - a century in which God is helping those that help themselves instead of trusting in miracles. In fact, a modern day Abraham would most certainly face prosecution for heeding illegal orders, even if they are from God.

We need to revel in the brotherhood/sisterhood of all of mankind. To that end, we need to abandon our contempt for the ``Golden Calf`` of other cultures. The need of the century is to abandon the ``My Prophet/God is bigger than your Prophet/God`` approach to our quest for spiritual fulfillment.

More than Abraham, we need to celebrate the Eve of Africa whose fossilized remains point to a common ancestor for all of mankind. Harmony will rein not when all admirers of Abraham can get together under a single tent, but when no ``infidel`` is excluded either from such exercises in harmonious coexistence.

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Gibran,

A very good-natured article...I apreciate it.

Anti-semitism (not to imply it`s worse than any other form of racism) is not a facet of Islam...one need not go through the varied and complex relations between Jews and Muslims throughout the ages...not all rosey but perhaps for the most part better than worse.

Rather, anti-semitism is a hallmark of modern Islamism, and anti-semitism is often a clumsy attempt at being anti-zionist. It`s very common to hear a fanatic claim that they have no problems with Jews or the Judaic faith (which is perhaps the only other faith Islam recognizes as valid as-is), but in fact the state of Israel. Of course, then they start going on rants about Jews control the world, and all that crap.

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I had a chat with a client of my brothers....a real buhdbhoodarr zionist. His whole thing was that he wants Israel to be left alone. I explained that that would be impossible so long as the Israeli army occupies the west bank and gaza....so long as that occupation exists, it is nigh impossible for any kind of peace partner to emerge. His response was that they should move to other states, those lands are Jewish lands. By what right, I demanded to know. Historically, it`s Jewish lands was the response. In essence, he was arguing for the ``right of return`` for all Jews who were expelled thousands of years ago, but completely ruled out any such right for Palestinians who were expelled just decades ago. And this kind of fanatical attitude is mainstream in American/Israeli politics.

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nakhok,

“Cooler tempers might prevail if an Arab mulls over what he would have done in 1948 if he were a holocaust survivor.”

The holocaust should mean squat to the Arabs. That was a problem from Europe. It must not, and should not, be used as a means to solicit sympathy for unrelated causes.

Buying land and tending to it does not imply statehood. By declaring an independent state, there was a serious breech of trust on the part of the Zionists. Of course, one could also argue that since at the time the land was controlled by the Brits, it should be the brits that be the focus of rage, not Israel. They simply went to the proper power brokers. I would tend to agree with that point of view….


”More importantly, an Arab might want to mull over the fact that Palestine was a two-way street at that moment in history. Yes, many a Palestinian ( 0.5 million) fled his ancestral home in the wake of Palestine`s partition. But at least an equal number of Jews got thrown out from Arab countries (from Morocco to Iraq) and even from Iran.”

Very true, and a good point. I’m uncertain if the numbers are comparable, nor how many of the Jews migrated willfully, however by no means was all of the modern exodus to Israel willing. Needless to say, it is very easy to offer such Jews a “right to return”. It would probably not be sincere, however the fact is, Israel has been shipping in Jews by the plane and boat load…literally. There is no Jewish refugee problem. There is a Jewish settlement problem and a Palestinian refugee problem.

“Needless to say, these Shephardic Jews have no reason to feel that they owe anything to the Palestinians who had lost their ancestral home.”

Ahh…two wrongs making a right…

“More importantly, the Shephardic Jews have genuine cause to resent the Arab countries that threw them out of their ancestral home in the aftermath of Palestine`s partition.”

Yup. But the fact is, these Arab regimes were no less accommodating to the Palestinians. This is a classic subterfuge of the anti-Palestine camp…they mistakenly identify only two parties…Arabs and Jews. The fact is, the treatment Israel mets out to Palestinians is independent of the relationship between Arab states and Israel. And it is to the treatment of the Palestinians that Israel is being rightly condemned and criticized for.


“One sided blind support for the Arab regimes that have persistently sought Israel`s obliteration right from day one, will not solve the problem.”

I don’t think that remains the stated objective of most Arab regimes. Even Saudi has offered to recognize Israel if it moves back to it’s 1968 borders…but if anything, such offers are dismissed. Wrongly, imho.

”Israel is a beleagured state.”

No it’s not. It was a beleaguered state. Now it’s a protected one.

”Tiny Israel, on the other hand, has been affected to the point where it is really weary to a person.”

Not because of it’s relations with Arab neigbours…but because of it’s policies in the West bank and gaza. Remember: three parties, not two.

”Israel wants real peace - not a tactical truce that would allow the Arab regimes to wait for an opportunity to obliterate Israel from the world map.”

Again, this is just a paranoid view that is designed to give Israel a cart blanche in it’s affairs with other Arab states and in the occupied territories. Fact is, aside from Syria and Iran, everyone else is pretty much fed up with Palestine. Israel has been exposed as a dog, and continues to be reviled…but then their army isn’t the best way to win “hearts and minds” throughout the middle east. But then, the Israelis really don’t care.
to absolve themselves of any blame.

”The Arab regimes did the Palestinian Arabs no favor by invading Israel on the morrow of the UN-sanctioned partition.”

The UN? Make up your mind. Either the UN is to be respected or it’s to be ignored (as Israel does with the gazillions of resolutions against it). Fact is, the Arab states did what any state would do if a group of people bought land, and then declared it as an independent state. What would the Israelis do to any Palestinian body that would ‘declare’ a state (UN backed no less) in the west bank and Gaza without their approval?

”The Arab regimes did the Palestinian Arabs no favor by failing to establish an independent Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza in the two decades they had till 1967.”

Very true. Of course, if they would have won the point would be moot…but then, might doesn’t make right either.

”The Arab regimes did the Palestinian Arabs no favor by failing to absorb the refugees by giving them citizenship.”

Actually, they did and are. The minute these Palestinians are absorbed, they loose any hope of “right of return”. They have been evicted from their homes, and want to go back. Arab states have absorbed many Palestinians. They could absorb them all. But the fact is, the refugee problem is Israel’s creation, and it’s hers to fix. If you want to demand similar for the Jews expelled, I would support that as well.

“The Arab regimes do Palestinian Arabs no favor by backing to the hilt the Palestinian Arabs` demand for the right of return to Israel. Israel has absorbed all the Jews thrown out of Arab lands in the afternmath of the partition of 1948.”

Unh…that was the whole idea behind Israel…as a homeland for all the Jews. Palestine is for the Arabs who occupied the land these Jews migrated to prior to being expelled.


”Come to think of it, the half million Hindu Sindhis who were driven into exile at India`s partition have a far stronger cause for grievance than the half million Palestinians who went into exile at Palestine`s partition”

Are you kidding? India’s partition (pick any region) is a much more important issue than Palestine ever could be. Why does it get so much attention? Well for one, it highlights and exemplifies an ongoing injustice. Second, it affects a very strategically important region of the world. Third, for Muslims and Jews and Chirstiance, there is a holy city in the country – one the Israelis refuse to have setup as a Vatican-like city. Foruth, and often overlooked, is the fact that many Evengelical Christians think a state of Israel is a necessary precondition for the arrival of Christ.

Other than that, it’s a low-intensity and fairly modest crisis compared to, say, Rawanda, Darfur, Chechnya, etc.

How can Islam be anti-Semitic? Merriam-Webster defines ``Semite`` as

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Main Entry: Sem·ite
Pronunciation: `se-``mIt, esp British `sE-``mIt
Function: noun
Etymology: French sémite, from Semitic Shem, from Late Latin, from Greek SEm, from Hebrew ShEm
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples
2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language

1Se·mit·ic
Pronunciation: s&-`mi-tik also -`me-
Function: adjective
Etymology: German semitisch, from Semit, Semite Semite, probably from New Latin Semita, from Late Latin Semitic Shem
1 : of, relating to, or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic

Funnily enough, the same M-W defines `anti-semitic` thus

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an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: ``an-ti-`se-m&-``ti-z&m, ``an-``tI-
Function: noun
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

Like Dharam-paaji said, ``English is a very funny language``.

Nice read, BTW.

Mitran said:
``DUDE GIBRAN
All that we know of the peoples of the Middle east suggests that both ancient jews as well as arabs are semitic. Modern day jews while they may have a greater proportion of european blood in them still celebrate their semitic roots , which is not entirely different from the Arab semitic identity . ``

So I think you are trying to say that Arab anti-semitism is an oxy-moron (sort of like Islamic terrorism, because the root of the word Islam is peace - so peace and terrorism cannot go side by side)
But though Arabs are also Semites, the use of the term anti-Semitic generally refers to the discrimination/prejudice towards the Jewish people - so the topic is basically, are Muslims fundamentally anti-Semitic? can they ever accept peace? The article also discusses historical truths and battles some misconceptions.

Bham

The link given below is worth reading. There are ceratainly negative aspertions about the non-Muslims in the scripture.

The Quran states that ``Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.`` (III - The house of Imran 67)``. This is while Islam accepts the Judism prophets and Torah.

``Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures`` (XCVIII: The Proof: 6-7).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_anti-Semitism

NHK

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I only want to comment on the title of the essay. The essay itself is irrelevant to me. Jewish immigrants to europe in medieval and pre-medieval times were differentin in skin,hair and eye color from the caucasians, slavs and aryans already inhabiting the eastern,centeral and north-eastern part of the continent. These europeans distinguished the in-coming Jews from themselves by classifying them as ``Semites``, which by the way is the group of races in which anthropologists put the descendants of ``Sem or Sam- Son of Noah``. Hence the people living in the arabian peninsula, iraq,jordan,syria,lebanon and surrounding arab states are all ``Semites``. Palestinians, which are fighting for freedom from Israel are also ``Semites``. The term ``Anti-Semitism`` refers to persecution of jews in continental europe or places where jews are strictly distinguishable on racial basis. So being anti-jewish is not being ``anti-semite``. Second point is that perhaps no muslim is ``anti-jewish``, what muslims all around the world vehemently oppose is ``Zionism``, and being ``anti-zionist`` is not being``anti-jewish`` because many jews are also ``anti-zionist``.
Let`s start using correct terminology and free ourselves from cliches, which are obsolete now.

Haji004

Jews must laugh their heads off whenever they come across sophomoric pedantry like this article. The fact of the matter is that they are in the process of establishing an empire that spans from Nile to the Eupherates. This is an ideal or an objective that they have inscribed on the front door of the Kenesset building which keeps on reminding their leaders and politicians as to why they were sent there. United States has the same objective but for different reasons, otherwise, it is a matter of three months for US to establish a two state system in the Palestine but that would kill the original objective, now wouldn`t it. That is the reason US torpedoes down each and every effort for peace from international community as well as some superficial efforts by themselves buying Israel more time to expel natives from their lands. It will keep on happening until this objective is met. That is the reason US will never leave Iraq unless of course a humiliating defeat is handed over to it by Iraqis. But that will not stop it from re-occupying Iraq at a later date. Evangalical Chritians in US are praying their hearts out so that the biblcal prophecy could become true. Jews are working hard to turn their prophecies untrue according to which they can never have a state of their own. It is because of these two hate filled, outdated, and simply stupid ideologies and religions that the whole region (and now globally) there is blood shed everywhere (also a part of prophecy). Guess what? these people are quite happy that the part of prophecy that the whole region will be in turmoil has also come true. They will keep it in turmoil until Jesus Christ is descended upon them for their salvation. This must be some kind of cruel and ugly joke that their god has played on them. A simple question is why would jesus christ come for the salvation of these people who have given a bloodbath to the whole region; killed innocent children, women, old and sick indiscriminately; raped them; tortured them; expelled them from their lands and turned their lives into living hell. Either their god is unjust and cruel or he is plain stupid who has no idea to whom he should bestow his salvation. While the adherents of these hateful ideologies do it in their religious fervor and in hope of salvation they blame Islam of being intolerant. Its a cruel joke.

haji004,

Dispel the aryan myth that they inhabited north-central asian region.
The word Arya has Sanskrut origins and it belongs to Indian civilization.

The identity-less german nomads fantacized about the superiority of their race and silently appropriated the word from Indian literature, during british mis-rule in India.

The process of appropriation of treasures of world wasn`t limited to land and loot. This instance was nothing but Cultural Theft.

The british themselves took pride in having german roots (they call themselves overrun by anglo-saxons) until Hitler threatened to turn on them.

``Arya`` and ``Swastik`` belongs to India and the barbarians have no right over it.

this is utterly confusing.

born-agains and their leader from texas claims divine inspiration for their policies. so do the al-sauds. so do the zionist. so do the tora-borans and hamas and hizbollah. they pretty much agree that its the same god that is inspiring each of the chosen peoples.

now while some of them can be simultaneously be right, all of them cannot be. the god must be going crazy with these conflicting demands.

i know its a political problem and not religious, but urstruly keeps confusing me.

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semantically -- Islam itself is a semitic religion -- could it be against itself -- not improbable....Militant Judiasm is virulently antisemitic -- it is antiarab..

....orthodoxy in Islam is a gift from its mother relgion Judiasm....

Wonder why Parsis (the orginal inhabitants of Persia, today`s Iran) had to leave if Muslims were so to tolerant.
Parsis landed in India(Gujarat to be precise) with a story that Muslims persecuted them and asked them to either embrace Islam or Death.

May be Islam means peace, but only for Muslims, not for jahiliyas.

Gibran,

Although I found the article fascinating and concomitant, I do have a problem with the title however. You didn`t answer your question whether ``Islam`` is anti-Semitic or not. Of course it is obvious that Islam is NOT anti-Semitic given the Semitic hyperbole that is prevalent in Islam`s structure. But your article intends to drill the point home that Islam is not anti-Jewish (while making Semitic synonymous with Jews and exclusively with Jews). One does not need to sift through the ambivalent contemporary Muslim attitudes towards Jews to notice that ``Islamism`` is in complete contradistinction. After all, ``anti-Semitic`` jargon began with Christianity`s consequential and perfidious break with 1st century Judaism. To demonstrate the prevarication of contemporary Muslim thought, I think you could have provided some Qu`ranic verses to give substance to your article. Nevertheless, the links were helpful and purvey.

--Ibn

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#Vertex

Do you write for Chowk ? I like the way you approach an argument.

#15 by haji004

[Second point is that perhaps no muslim is ``anti-jewish``, what muslims all around the world vehemently oppose is ``Zionism``, and being ``anti-zionist`` is not being``anti-jewish`` because many jews are also ``anti-zionist``]

Oh! So Daniel Pearl was a Zionist?

#11 vertex
Over the last 4 years I have slowly come to a place where I think the existence of Israel is a huge mistake. It`s not an easy position for me to be in given that I have many good Israeli friends. That said, the stance that it is somehow virtuous that the Palestinians have not been absorbed into other countries is a bit like the old adage about destroying something in order to save it. Palestinians are as much resourceful as Israelis and it`s enormous crime that they have not been allowed to live their lives in peace.

Arjun:

``religion gets defined by the actions of the majority of it`s practitioners....A majority of muslims DO believe in the ``protocols of the elders of zion``...Pakistani newspaper editorials regularly quote that forgery or use references to it...``

Oh bologna!

#30 by Mordant_Muslim
//..Oh bologna! ..//

Not it`s not. Arjun is right. Islam (or any other ideology/religion) is defined by the way it is practiced.

Majority of muslims in arab and wannabe-arab countries(like pakistan) believe Islam is the only way. They hate kafirs. They have been yearning for the day when the mythical past glory will come back and islam will lord over everybody else in the world. Their fascist fantasies are no secret at all.

But of course - it will remain fantasy.

Is Islam Anti-Semitic?

Of course! Atually Islam is anti-any-other-religion. One of the major trait of Islam as practiced widely today is - ``my way or the highway``. The concept of kufr is very strong and widely accepted and practiced.

mohar 11

however your insight, and expansive over generalization about the ``other`` side in such matters does not seem to be any different than the people you are talking about .

Mohar11

We can`t really be sure about the `majority.` Majority of Muslims may or not be followers of Islam.

However the `majority among the Muslims who speak up` does meet your description. And they are the only people who do and should count.

Mohar11

We can`t really be sure about the `majority.` Majority of Muslims may or not be followers of Islam.

However the `majority among the Muslims who speak up` does meet your description. And they are the only people who do and should count.

#35 by Ralph
//...Majority of Muslims may or not be followers of Islam...//

I think you may have to reconsider this statement. To suggest that Majority of muslims may NOT be followers of Islam - could be considered almost bordering on blasphemy.

Regarding ``majority among the Muslims who speak up`` - well, I am not sure we should be doing such hair-splitting at this point of time.

#33 by nina7
//...expansive over generalization about the ``other`` side...//

May be I am over-generalizing. But until I see some signs of alternative voices strong enough and loud enough and in large numbers .... trying to beat a separate/moderate path for vast multitudes for muslims .... trying to lead them out the current darkness of extreme orthodoxy .... I am inclined to stick with the generalization.

Until such time when an enlightened leadership emerges to reform islam and muslims, it would be a mistake to accord benefit of doubt to folks who have historically, consistently accepted and practiced orthodoxy, isolationism and exteremist ideologies bordering on fascism. They have either actively participated in propagating such extremism around the world ... or have condoned such practices under all sorts excuses.

Time for any further excuses has run out. Time to reform is ... now!!!

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Hmmmmm...Mordant Muslim wasting his time with a bunch of pakistan-obsessed lunatics. ha! ha!

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#41
//...jews are less than 15 million in world population in 3000 yr history. why ?
why they don`t grow ? It is beyond my understanding...//

Well - may be because jews don`t breed like rabbits ...... May be because they don`t go around ``harvesting`` souls ..... May be they don`t have delusions about taking over the world and making everybody else a dhimmi.

May be they choose quality over quantity.

``Majority of muslims in arab and wannabe-arab countries(like pakistan) believe Islam is the only way. They hate kafirs. They have been yearning for the day when the mythical past glory will come back and islam will lord over everybody else in the world. Their fascist fantasies are no secret at all.``

That`s a broad assumption to make, mohar. It would take a whole article to respond to adequately. Though I can say this. The problem with that assumption is that it generalizes over a 1400 year span. A large emphasis that no sociologist nor ethnographer would sift through. Furthermore, your description would infer that all Muslims adhere to a homogeneous form of Islam. Not only is that false but it completely misses the point and jejunely believes that every divergent sect in Islam carries out the same teleological aspiration. I find that hard to swallow.

--Ibn

Mohar: The problem with your idea that Islam is defined by what its practitioners believe is that your opinion of Islam is relative to the time ur analyzing it. If you were looking at spain 500 years ago what inferences would u make on Islam? Would they be diametrically opposed to your current posts?

Lets face it, the Quran and the Torah are not the deepest books ever written. Take the good, leave the bad and move on... It is useless to warp ur logic to make the quran and the hadis out to be some sort of magnificent examples of free thinking righteousness and wisdom. They may have been righteous and wise for the simple people they were revealed to but the WISER muslims need to stop defending every ``questionable`` thing contained in them.

GROW UP, be a man or a woman and admit to urself that these are just books, letters on pages and they are NOT perfect. Stop wasting ur time defending these books like u wrote them. And stop letting ur fear of hell cloud the truth within.

That being said I know too many educated muslims who believe that whenever they sneeze its because of the jews. And I also know too many similarities between Israel and hitlers germany. The problem here is not religion or polytricks, Its that people love to blindly follow the religion or political ideas of their mommies and daddies.

Of course most of you will need probably 14,000 more lifetimes before you actually abondon these silly azz systems and start thinking for yourselves.

43
//....That`s a broad assumption to make...//

May be. But at this point, I willing to take that risk. May be that`s what it needs to force people like you to move your collective lazy-a$$es and do some reform from inside and do some critical thinking ...... instead of crying foul everytime someone gave you a whiff of the mess that`s festering under the carpet for so long. This is something you folks should have done by yourselves anyaway .... years ago.

Painted with the broad brush - you would have then no place to hide - no more excuses to give .... may be that will give you guys a kickstart to get going to clean up the mess.

So the over-generalization may not be a bad thing after all, at least in this case.

#44
//...Would they be diametrically opposed to your current posts? ..//

Sure. From what I have read in Chowk - Islam in Spain was moderate and progressive. If that is true and if we consider Spain in isolation ( because during the same period of time, islam as practiced elsewhere probably was not that progressive) then of course, Islam will come out in a different light.

I mean - this is a no-brainer. This is true for other religions too. There were periods when christianity was full of sh!t - inquistions, pogroms, violent campaigns to convert people and what not. ..... But today it`s vastly different. The difference is entirely because of the way the christians practiced their beliefs then and they way they practice it now.

Mohar: Im trying hard to suppress my arrogance here but Im shocked that these dudes havent destroyed your arguments yet.

Christianity is infact theologically more exclusive then islam and has been responsible for far more destruction/death etc...

I am quite shocked at how DIFFICULT it is for a lot of you to argue against fundamentalist Islam. This should be a very quick very easy debate but fools cant stop muddying up the topic.

drum
//....Christianity is infact theologically more exclusive then islam and has been responsible for far more destruction/death etc....//

Exactly my point. And yet, as matters stand today - christianity is one of the most peace-loving religions ... progressive, accommodating, charitable. Christian-majority nations are advanced, developed, secular, minority-friendly where freedom rules and basic human rights are well-protected.

Why? Because the way majority of christians behave - the way they understand the basics of religion and spirituality - they way they conduct their societies - the way they have built some of the most advanced nations and civilizations in the history of the mankind - their enormous contributions towards science, arts, culture - their contributions towards progress of humanity in general - both in terms of men and material.

So how did this happen? How did christians who are ``theologically more exclusive and responsible for far more destruction/death`` reach where they are today? How did they transform themselves from the dark ages to being the beacon of light?

++++

As for the rest of your post - it wasn`t clear at all .... something about difficulty in arguing against fundamentalist Islam.

Mohar: Ur selectively picking and choosing from history those incidences which support your preconcieved notions (this iz not scientific).

READ about Islamic history. You are conveniently refering to ur views on modern day islam an extrapolating them upon Islam as a whole. Spain was not the only advanced muslim nation. Baghdad, Mali, Sufi India etc were ripe with scientific study and Islamic pluralism. But all that sh1t is discarded because it doesnt support your view point that islam is intolerant.

Now Let me ask you WHY did the islamic world change. Why did baghdad of 500 years ago be baghdad of today? Which one represents Islam? Why? Ill Give u a hint. This sh1t has less to do with religion and more to do with politics and the economy.

It disgusts me to see all these ivory tower ``scholars`` chastise those who literally have nothing. Is the ``islamic world`` not spiritually refined enuff for you? Perhaps that because mufukkas are living largely in poverty. WHen ur azz doesnt have food to eat, you arent really concerned with theology. Put on the thinking caps, This poverty creates the ATMOSPHERE for bin ladens etc to exist.

WHere are Extremists most prevelent? ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS in areas where jobs are minimal and hope is lost. Perhaps if you took off your blinders youd se what is glaringly obvious.

Oh by the way. I almost threw up when i read your last post. Do you actually believe what you wrote or are u someones nickname? Christiajnity is one of the most peaceloving nations? And how did the mighty christians get all the funds to be able to waste their time on silly issues such as spirituality?

MERCANTILSIM, IMPERIALISM and COLONIALISM.

``Divide, conqure, pillage and rape / and a lil bit of slavery is what made America great``

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drum
//...Spain was not the only advanced muslim nation. Baghdad, Mali, Sufi India etc were ripe with scientific study and Islamic pluralism.But all that sh1t is discarded because it doesnt support your view point that islam is intolerant//

Take it easy man - I didn`t intend to discard anything. You have a good point. Baghdad, Mali(???), Sufism were/are shining examples of tolerant islam. Another example in present times is Islam/muslims in Indonesia, even though things are changing rapidly there , for the worst. Arabized Islam creeping into that country.

So instead of discarding these examples - I am actually encouraged by it. Because, it gives a frame of reference .... it may also give a platform to those would be reformers to reform islam and bring it back to the days of Spain, Baghdad, Mali, Sufism.

+++
//...This poverty creates the ATMOSPHERE for bin ladens etc to exist....//

Really? I thought bin laden is from billionaire family .... and from a country(saudi Arabia) whose per capita income at one point was higher than US. Come on - this theory of ``Poverty breeds islamic terrorism`` has been proved to be cr@p long time ago. In fact it is the opposite - islamic terrorism has been bred, fed, produced by the riches of Arab world, Saudis in particular.

And anycase - this is exactly what I am talking about. Excuses and more excuses. Instead of railing against ``ivory tower scholars`` for speaking the truth - you should be out there doing something else.

I mean, instead of laying this Baghda/Mali/Sufism sugar-candy on me - why don`t you spread it out in front of muslims at large??? Forget the silly ``ivory tower scholars`` - If you think Islam was tolerant/pluralistic at one point of time then why don`t spread that message loud and clear among muslim communities?? ........ Why don`t you call a town-hall meeting in Saudi Arabia and tell them - ``Folks, this is what we had at one point of time -remember Spain?? Now, Let`s go back to that, Let`s go back pluralism and modernity ... Kafirs are Allah`s children too ... Let women drive ... Let others pray their gods while they are in Saudi land ... Let`s go back to Sufism``.

And then come back and tell me how that meeting went. If you can come back at all, in one piece.

Arjun: The best thing someone of a lesser mind should do is never address me with their paki vs india and Hindu vs Muslim crap. The vast majority of the people on his site are of a lesser mind so they blindly end up supporting the nation they were born into or the religion they were born into. This requires no thinking. You guys are blind robots.

And no im not a jihadi apologist. In fact I bet i can argue both yours and his points better then you guys can. Your just baised robots. If you were born in pakistan you would be supporting islam.

And who says india is poorer then pakistan? Thats nonsense. Why do these mullahs have such a strong hold on poor pakistani`s? THINK ABOUT IT. The current government does nothing for pakistani children. The mullahs give them an education (be it a very biased and ignorant one).

Terrorists are and have always been born as a DIRECT result of POVERTY (be it percieved or actual). You are correct that suadis are well off. Ill also add that most suicide bombers in the occupied territories are well off. That does NOT negate the fact that they believe they are fighting for a people who are oppressed.

``THE BATTLE OF THE POOR IS TERRORISM, The Battle of the rich is war``

By the way: How do you arrive at the figures for terrorist per capita? Are the americans not terrorists? Are the bristish not terrorists? Or are all terrorists actions limited to Muslims?

Perhaps what is required to be done is to draw a distinction between Islam, one of the 5 major world religions, and Islamism, a political doctrine subscribed to a very miniscule minority of Muslims.

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Mohar: In dealing with spirituality, it is best for us to refine ourselves then to waste our time trying to show others the light. I did, when i was muslim, try to spread some tolerance, but the thing though is most muslims are fairly tolerant people (the desis i come accross, i dono much about the saudis). The problem with them and the problem with nearly all religious people is that they do not allow thmselves to think outside of their religion.

Religious people believe there is just one true religion .... and of course it just so happened that they were born into that religion. To argue with a person as breathtakingly stupid as this would make a reasonable person just as foolish.

Why do i not run around to saudi arabia and preach tolerant Islam? Simply because i dont give a sh1t about what most muslims think. If people want to blindly follow some dead man then its upto them.

There is a sufi saying ``the river leads to the ocean, do not confuse the river for the ocean.`` Religion MAY lead to the absolute, that doesnt make religion absolute though. Because i recognise that notion, i dont waste my time trying to preserve or purify an inherently curruptING system.

Now, dont cloudy up the issue by bringing up who the financers of these ``jihads`` are. Where are the hot spots in extremist Islam? CHECHNYA, PALESTINE, IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN. Hmmmm. Not try and connect the dots and find out why is it that extremists are prevelent here and not elsewhere? U think the economy and politics have anything to do with it?

And i do ask you again sir, Why are you not bringing up the terrorism of the west such as that of america and britain? Is their terrorism okay because they are white, or because they are christian or is it okay because they confuse us by calling their terrorism ``war``?

Arjun: The thing here is that I may be against bin laden HOWEVER if you look at a broader context, 9/11 was detined to happen. I am not necessarily glad that innocent people died during the 9/11 attacks however I am glad that for once the real terrorists got a taste of their medicine.

I know a lot of muslims are too scared to say that these days but fukk it. There is no country in the history of the world which has caused more death and destruction then america has. That bin laden or whoever touched america up is simply karma.Infact, if i was living in palestine and i had just seen my family being killed via american made bombs i would probably be a ``terrorist`` too.

I urge u again to name one Muslim hot spot for terrorism which is not economically or politically backward and currupt. Name one.

Ive already shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that these actions done by al Qaeda and others are ECONOMICAL and politcial not religious. That they use the banner of Islam im sure does fool those who arent critical thinkers.

As for your story, there are millions of people just like her who decide to get an education and what not. That may be the better way to go. However, tell that to the father of the 13 year old palestinian girl who was shot up 20 times by some israeli. Tell him to get his kiddies a better education. Sh1t If i was that man i would sign up the next day with hezbollah.

Drum
//Simply because i dont give a sh1t about what most muslims think...//

I thought you did. Otherwise why would this discussion start in the first place??

Anyway - my point was that, those who are giving elaborate excuses for backwardness of muslims should turn their energies inward. Instead of railing against those who point out the obvious flaws - they must spend time to create an awareness about the mindless orthodoxy that is so prevalent among the muslim communities. Saudi Arabia is a good place to start.

+++
//...Why are you not bringing up the terrorism of the west such as that of america and britain?...//

Because I don`t have to. Westerners themselves are already doing it - millions of british have marched against war in Iraq - Tony Blair is already on the dock for this mis-adventure, he might loose his job for this. At least 50% of the americans think war in iraq has gone horribly wrong - there is a chance that they may give Bush the boot.

If mistakes and mis-adventures were not being punished and corrected, the West wouldn`t be where it is now.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said about muslims - they are frozen in time and slipping back further.

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drumz

``WHere are Extremists most prevelent? ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS in areas where jobs are minimal and hope is lost``

Why are Catholic terrorists not coming out of the slums of Manila, why are Hindu suicide bombers coming out of the slums of Calcutta, why are Buddhist terrorists from Nepal not flying Airplanes into New York?

Hmmm....i wonder why....

drum
//...Where are the hot spots in extremist Islam? CHECHNYA, PALESTINE, IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN....//

Wrong! Hot spots are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. That`s where lie the jiahd breeding factories - the ground zero of islamic extremism.

Chechnya: The western position is actually favored towards chechens. It`s the russians who are miffed - because the west asks them to talk with chechens.

Palestine: if israeli soldier pumped 20 bullets into a palestine girl - there are also israeli girls who have been blown to pieces by palestine suicide bomber. The match is even here- so the less said, the better. Moreover - the europeans are favored towards palestine, even though US is not. So the ``West`` is not single block on this one.

Afgan: this one is the ``good`` war. Taliban had to be decimated. Afgans just voted in first ever election. Yeah, we know it was flawed.

Iraq: the jury is still out on this one - but this one certainly looks like a ``bad`` war. Again - europeans were against it from the beginning.

+++++

Anycase - if and when the next big terror bang strikes the ``west`` , it may not be by Palis, chechens, iraqis or afganis. You could bet it`s going to be another bunch of Saudis and Pakis.

Mohar: PALESTINE and Israel are an even match? ARE YOU KIDDING ME????? Tanks vs stones is even? Just look at the number of people who are dead from both sides.

Afghanistan is a good war? They had mock elections in which 15 candidtates dropped out. The nation has no governemnt and no order outside of kabul and more opium production now then when the taliban was in power.

Iraq: No one would dream of justifying this war. Its all about the OIL.

Saudis and pakis have the money and a political agenda. I do not doubt that some of them are stupid enuff to actually believe that what they are doing is Islamic. You guys do make a good point on that. However, These guys wouldnt have any clout in the Islamic world if It were as financially stable as the west.

(((((((((((((((The rhetoric they spew is considered agreeable by some only because of the current political and economic backwardness of the muslim world.))))))))))))))))

Very important point here. This pint establishes that the root is not religious but an economic/political one.

Mohar: Should muslims work to end the absolute idiocy prevelent in the muslim world? I would certainly agree. Now i dont see at all the comparison between the west and Islam. The west has caused far more destruction and genocide in the world (its not even close). By the way im just shooting the breeze with you guys. Most of the ``anti Islamic`` opinions are true in spirit, they just arent being said in an objective manner.

Arjun: You could turn the argument around but it would do u no good because whatever Islam has done is not even close to what the west has done. America was certainly asking for it. Look at its foriegn policy. Micronesia is prolly the only country america hasnt gangraped in the past 50 years..... Saudi arabia is not a muslim hot spot for terrorism. they just finance the terrorism because they align themselves with oppressed muslims just like you being a hindu/indian align yourself with hindus and indians. Muslim hot spots for terrorism are chechnya, palestine, iraq and afghanistan (((POVERTY))).

Bin laden USEs Islam to suit his political agenda. Anyone who has studied war In an Islamic context would know this but this is chowk, the place where no one bothers studying other religions. By the way I dont say this as a muslim apologist, im saying it as an objective student of religion. Read up on how war is suppose to be fought in an Islamic way and you will see that none of these insurgents and ``holy warriors`` are fighting an Islamic war. They are using islam to suit their needs. Your point about gujrat was a good one. The point I made earlier was intentionally a very emotional one. Would joining a terrorist unit be a wise thing to do? likely not, yet i can certainly undertsand if the father of the girl would consider it.

Brucelee: If we really go deep into Catholic terrorism my argument would be too easily won. Now I am not up to par with my south asian politics but i am aware of the marxist rebellions in nepal which are largely economically based. There are also what 30 million separatist movements in the whole of india, many of which represent the economically downtrodden. Go to the slums of jamaica, haiti, somalia, nigeria, brazil. what are the common denominators? POVERTY and gangs, terrorism and lawlessness.

Drumz

Why is there not a religious component in those terrorist movements?

DRUMZ

here is how it works (keep the bong aside to read this). you get terrrorism when hopeless folks are given false hope by afeem of religion or communism. is that right? there are other ways, just because they are harder to find does not mean we should pander to simple-minded and childish religious packaging of terrorism.

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this is a very interesting pertinent article -- the Europeanization of Islam thru training of New Eujropean Imams by EU governments.....an auspicious beginning for a new reformed entity -- Western Islam...sorry that the article is a little long but highly significant and worth reading in full.

Europe Struggling to Train New Breed of Muslim Clerics
By ELAINE SCIOLINO

Published: October 18, 2004


T.-LÉGER-DE-FOUGERET, France, Oct. 13 - On a wooded hillside in deepest rural Burgundy sits a modest 19th-century chateau with a daunting mission: the training of imams to minister to the Muslims of Europe.

Here, for $3,200 a year, about 150 French and foreign students study and live in a damp, dilapidated former corporate summer resort with a tiny library, few computers, no television and no cellphone reception.

The goal of the European Institute for Human Sciences, as the coeducational school is known, is an urgent one shared by political leaders and intelligence and law enforcement authorities across the Continent.

They believe that the growing Muslim population of Europe must stanch the migration of Muslim clerics who often are self-appointed, unfamiliar with the West, beholden to foreign interests and in the most extreme cases, full of hate and capable of terrorist acts. To that end, they say, a homegrown breed of imams must be created.

``We are here to create modern imams who will respond to the needs of our Muslims in France and in Europe,`` said Zuhair Mahmood, the Iraqi-born director of the school who trained as a nuclear scientist and helped found it 12 years ago. ``We need more mosques for the faithful and that means more imams.``

The perceived threat is so great that a number of European governments closely monitor the activities and sermons of their Muslim clerics.

France has expelled more than dozen Muslim clerics for violations of human rights or public order since 2001, most recently Abdelkader Bouziane, an Algerian-born imam and father of 16 who asserts that the Koran permits men to beat unfaithful wives.

In Italy last November, the Interior Ministry expelled a Senegalese-born imam after he called for suicide bombings and declared a ``blood pact`` with Osama bin Laden.
On Friday, Britain decided to charge a militant Muslim cleric, Abu Hamza al-Masri, a former nightclub bouncer who has supported Osama bin Laden, with terrorism offenses, stalling an American effort to extradite him to the United States.

But creating an army of learned, law-abiding, Europeanized imams is not easy. State involvement in religion in the Arab world is commonplace, but in Europe a government role can be seen as a violation of privacy and human rights.

Spain`s interior minister, José Antonio Alonso, set off a firestorm of criticism in May when he proposed the creation of a mandatory registry of clerics and places of worship and the monitoring of sermons.

The Netherlands is experimenting tentatively with required government-financed programs to teach imams ``courses of integration`` about newer Dutch values, including a greater acceptance of euthanasia and drug use.

Under new regulations in Britain, Muslim imams and other ``ministers of religion`` wishing to enter Britain to work must show a basic command of English.
Islam does not require its prayer leaders to have a formal degree of learning in religion. An imam does not have to be an Islamic scholar but can be anyone that a community of believers appoints.

``In Italy,`` said Omar Danilo Speranza, president of the Association of Italian Muslims, an umbrella group, ``even a butcher can call himself an imam.``
Mr. Speranza said his organization will begin certifying imams it believes are competent, that is, those ``who have a reading of the Koran that is more peaceful, more oriented towards love.``

But for many Muslim communities in Europe, personal and ethnic ties with their imam are often more important than an outside seal of approval.

``The idea of producing imams is still controversial,`` said James P. Piscatori, an American who is a professor of Islamic politics at Oxford University. ``On the one hand, you want your own imams because the imported ones are seen as conveyor belts for bad ideas. On the other hand, the communities say, `Who are you to tell us who our imam should be or how he should be trained?` ``

Perhaps the biggest obstacle to creating the profession here in Europe is money: it is hard to make a living as an imam.

``An imam is not an official position; it`s poorly paid and there`s no security,`` said Olivier Roy, the French scholar on Islam. ``Why should a bright young French or British boy spend five years studying Islam only to find that there`s no real job, that the community just wants someone to lead the prayers and conduct weddings and funerals?``

Indeed, among the graduates of the institute in Burgundy are would-be teachers and counselors, but very few imams. Many students come only for the two-year Arabic-language program. Last year, only one graduate became a bona fide imam with a job in a mosque.

``I did business-marketing at home and that`s all about how you sell your product and my product is Islam,`` said Fahimul Anam, a 31-year-old Briton born in Bangladesh who dreams of work in education management. ``I don`t necessarily feel I have to become an imam to do that.``

Complicating matters is that the French government regards the Union of Islamic Organizations, the movement that runs the Burgundy school, as well as branches in Wales and in a suburb of Paris, as potentially dangerous.

The organization derives its inspiration from the banned Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, emphasizes personal purification and grass-roots proselytizing and aims to influence all aspects of a Muslim`s life. Mr. Mahmood, the director, made headlines eight years ago when he won a lawsuit requiring the local high school in the nearby town of Château-Chinon to allow his two daughters to cover their hair in class.

Last March, 100 followers of the far right-wing National Front party staged a demonstration in the town demanding that the Burgundy school be closed, calling it a hotbed of extremism that was producing Europe`s ``future political-religious agitators.``
In west London, the Muslim College, financed by a Libyan foundation connected to the government, similarly turns out students who have studied Arabic and Islamic studies but few imams.

``If the authorities would pay them, they`d all become imams,`` said Zaki Badawi, its Egyptian director. ``They find temptation elsewhere.``

Rivalries within Muslim communities have made it more difficult to forge a common approach to imams.

Since its founding in 1998, the Islamic University of Rotterdam claims to have trained about 20 practicing imams, according to Gokcekus Ertogrul, the university`s secretary general.
But in recent years, according to some scholars, the university has increasingly been financed and come under the influence of an Islamic movement in Turkey, and has been criticized for losing its Dutch character.

``Much of what they say about their students is not true,`` said Johan Hendrik Meuleman, a fellow at Oxford University`s Center for Islamic Studies who was once a volunteer lecturer at the university. ``Volunteers like me didn`t accept the takeover from Turkey.``
Mr. Ertogrul fiercely denies the charges.

In 2001, Mr. Meuleman helped create the Islamic University of Europe outside of Rotterdam, intended to train Muslim chaplains for hospitals, prisons and the military and perhaps a small number of imams.

Using municipal financing, Mr. Meuleman already has given Dutch language training and a course in Dutch culture to a group of imams living and working in The Hague.
Another problem in training imams inside Europe is deciding who is qualified to do it. Dalil Boubakeur, the director of the main mosque of Paris, and president of a French nationwide Islamic council sanctioned by the state, is proud of his fledgling imam-training school.

``We are forming a cadre of imams who speak French and can relate to the young Muslims of France,`` Mr. Boubakeur said.

But both the mosque and the school are financed by the Algerian government, and that makes them suspect in the minds of some experts.

``It is not a real school,`` said Mr. Roy, perhaps France`s most respected scholar of Islam. ``It is just a tool of Boubakeur`s power.``

Meanwhile, Mr. Boubakeur criticized the school in Burgundy because it teaches all its courses in Arabic, not French, and he has branded its parent organization ``fundamentalist.``
Among the imams who have done their studies in Europe, there are different assessments about how the programs have worked.

Vicente Motta al-Faro, 29, a Spanish convert to Islam and the sole graduate of the Burgundy school last year, could not find a job as an imam and is about to start a job teaching Islamic culture at a center in Valencia. Becoming an imam, he said, ``depends on which Muslim community has money, which few have.``

Chedli Meskini, by contrast, a 38-year-old Tunisian-born French citizen who completed a four-year course at the school in 1997, was luckier. He landed a full-time job at a mosque in Le Havre, where he preaches in both French and Arabic.

``These days, imams are in hot demand,`` he said. ``And to find an Arabic and French-speaking imam, well, I don`t want to say it like this, but they need people like me.``
Mr. Meskini`s salary: $8.90 an hour, less than France`s minimum wage.

Bruce: there isnt a religious compnent to them. And what is your point and how does that refute my statement that terrorism is directly related to poverty? Or is religious terrorism cuter then secular terrorism to you?

Jang: the ganja is the only thing which is making everyone posts here appear deeper.... Why do you assume that terrorism starts when hopeless people are given false hopes? Maybe it begins when they lose paticnet with non violence. There are indeed other ways but I can name you 7 countries america has recently fukked up and I can also inform you that their answer to america was to do nothing. It is about time someone hit up the US.

I stated: WAR is the terrorism of the upper classes. I suppose though its not as bad as the terrorism of the poor....

Arjun: ``What makes ``I feel your pain`` transcend national boundaries? Islam``

Um Wrong. Dont miss the forest for the trees. The problem here is not religion, its that people are too weak to stand up for themselves so they ALIGN themselves with larger groups of equally stupid people. The problem here is human weakness and need for social affiliation. Take Islam out of the picture and wars would be fought for ethnic, cultural, lingusitic, racial or nationalistic reasons. ((((((((by the way, NO ONE has ever countered that point to me))))))))).....How many expatriots of a country send money oversees to fund liberation movements? Im sure the IRA and the Sri lankan Tigers are down.

Also, refrain from personal judgements on my character. Ive probably debated against more muslims and mullahs then all of you guys combined. I was speakin against the taliban back in 95. And no i dont support the pakistani governemnt, bla bla bla. I can basically argue your position or that of the Muslims. Ill debate against you guys because basically anyone can argue against bin laden these days.

I dont Support the jihadis, I stated that america was getting what it deserved. Whoever the ``terrorist`` is is irrelevent to me. Further, im not sure how this position conflicts with my assertion that bin laden and his ilk have a fools understanding of Islam.

Afghanistan is a mess. America did not fullfil any of its promises there. There is no order in the country outside of kabul. Warlords own most of the nation.

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DRUMZ

``I dont Support the jihadis, I stated that america was getting what it deserved.``

So you are proposing that along the lines of Karma we can deduce a righteousness to the act of 9/11.

Can we further explore this concept of Karmic retribution?

If Pakistan suffered a loss of life in a terrorist attack on the scale of 9/11, would it be a righteous act due to the ``bad karma`` accumulated by the state of Pakistan say, over the Bangladesh genocide?

Replace ``India`` for ``Pakistan`` regarding its own moral transgressions.

Or has enough bad karma been built up yet?

Who judges the karmic levels of retribution?

Why leave it at that. Are Muslims in Gujarat responsible and culpable for the crimes of Muslim invaders/emperors in India in the past?

Surely there is some Karmic dissonance that requires straightening out there on the basis of your 9/11 Justification theory?

Why stop at Muslims in Gujarat? Why are YOU not guilty because of the Armenian genocide of Christians by Turkish Muslim militias in the last century?

What about the annihilation of indigenous people in North America? As a Canadian citizen will you agree with the righteousness of an act that kills you and your family because you are the member of a society that has historically exterminated large numbers of Native Americans?

Should African-Americans be allowed to kill white people in recompense for the horrors of slavery? The hundreds of thousands of Africans who died on the slave ships and were dumped in the sea? The number of dead is unknowable.

JUST TELL ME THIS

Are you prepared to have you and your family made targets on the basis of the 9/11 Karmic Justification theory that can be applied to other countries/races/religions?

If you say to me, ``Yes, as a North American/Canadian/Muslim I do not mind if me or my family are slaughtered by psychopaths in retribution for the naughtiness of my religious/national ancestors, that is fine by me, bring it on`` then I concede your point.

If not then I would like to ask you why not? The Twin Tower people deserved it, according to you, because they were culpable indirectly by being in the USA, the source of all evil in the world (according to you and lots of others)

What do you say, DRUMZ?

DRUMZ

Why are poor Catholics/Hindus/Buddhists not flying planes into America yet rich Saudi Muslims are doing so?

Answer the question. I am genuinely seeking your wisdom on this.

#69 by DRUMZ on October 18, 2004 10:30pm PT

Coming to human pain- only liberal individual rights can ensure that every one`s pain is respected- most of the people in the world who claim to practice the `true` faith are infact devil`s companion.

BruceLee,

``If you say to me, ``Yes, as a North American/Canadian/Muslim I do not mind if me or my family are slaughtered by psychopaths in retribution for the naughtiness of my religious/national ancestors, that is fine by me, bring it on`` then I concede your point.``

Spinning the same old arguments, I see...y