How that Other Democracy (India) Differs

veeresh
//... why me? ..//

Well - then who else? You went to pakistan and refused to sing the ``love`` song - remember?? You looked under wrong stones, my friend. So now you are tagged for life - learn to live with it :)))

The Divided and Defeated BJP Should Expect More Shocks.
By Tushar-Tukoji

NEW DELHI, October 18: The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) probably got over the shock of its electoral defeat in Maharashtra by the evening of October 16, but more shocks appear to be in store for the party in the next two years.

First it would be Bihar, then Jharkhand and Haryana, and then West Bengal and Kerala when these states elect their assemblies.

If the BJP could not do well in its safest state, Maharashtra, it has little or no chance of doing any better in the other five, especially the last two where the BJP has never been a force.

By most reckoning, the Congress-NCP government in Maharashtra had faced the polls with a great deal of trepidation, what with problems ranging from farmers’ suicide to messy finances and drought. The Democratic Front government in the state, said many poll pundits, had little chance of retaining power. Some even went to the extent of saying that the Maharashtra polls would mark the beginning of the end of the Congress in the state as well its rule at the center.

But what happened, instead, was that in Maharashtra the BJP and its regional twin, the Shiv Sena, have lost many ‘bastions’ to the ‘pseudo-secular’ forces and the leaderships of both the BJP and the Shiv Sena face a scale of rebellion that may soon result in splits in their respective parties.

Should that happen, rebuilding a strong support base would be quite difficult because the ‘saffron’ brigade’s hold in the urban middle class Maharashtrians has also slipped.

The Shiv Sena started as a ‘Hindu’ party with a very narrow aim of ‘protecting’ Mumbai (then Bombay) from non-Maharashtrians and minorities. It later spread to the rest of the state to acquire the tones of a regional party.

But the just concluded assembly polls show that the Shiv Sena support has shrunk considerably and the party does not know whether to project itself as a regional party serving narrow chauvinistic ends or an exclusive and stronger Hindutva force.

The roar of the once unchallenged ‘tiger’ of Shiv Sena and its supremo, Bal Thakeray, has become so feeble that even his own family members do not seem to be scared of it.

The aftermath of Maharashtra looks terrible from the BJP perspective. It has set off both an identity and a leadership crisis in this self-styled ‘party of governance’, also known as ‘the party with a difference’ which is veering towards ‘party with differences’.

Since its ‘unexpected’ defeat in the Lok Sabha polls this past summer, the BJP has adopted a welter of tactics to win back the voters. It began with disrupting parliament, session by session, protesting against ‘tainted ministers’.

This is an issue, which should have won the party wide support and caused endless troubles to the newly installed UPA government. But the public reaction was one of dismay with the BJP for showing callous disregard to parliament.

The more keen watchers of the political scene also noticed that the tainted ministers’ issue smacked of hypocrisy by the BJP since it had never shown the slightest hesitation in hugging ‘tainted’ men and women.

Even when it became as clear as daylight, the BJP continued to flog the ‘foreign origin’ issue and heap abuses on the Congress president, Sonia Gandhi, who had, in fact, enhanced her stature in the public eye after the Lok Sabha poll by an act of unparalleled ‘sacrifice’ in Indian politics — turning down the opportunity to sit in the country’s most important chair.

What the BJP refused to see was that the insults it kept heaping on Sonia Gandhi were taken as signs of vulgarity by the masses who had for whatever reason reposed their faith in her.

She might not be accepted as a great figure in Indian politics but the kind of following that she has in the country does not permit of indecent personal attacks on her………

A ‘national’ level political party has to win over voters with positive messages of plausible content. Spewing vitriol in public is against ‘Indian culture’, something that the BJP allegedly espouses.

Ref dost-mittar #14

[harimou:
Statistics notwithstanding, this has to be treated as a big defeat for the BJP-Sena combine. With the NCP-Congress govt.`s dismal performance and the huge dissatisfaction of the people with it, the election should have been a walk-in for the opposition. So, this election should be considered more as a vote against the BJP-Sena than a vote for the govt.
And you could be a bit more generous towards Sonia. Though no tigress, she certainly seems to have developed a halo around her since her `raajya-tyaag` and handing over the `kharhaaon` to Manmohan Singh. I cant help thinking how her name would almost certainly have been in mud if she had chosen to be the PM herself. Reunciation pays in the `hindooland`.]

Didn`t pay in her supposed home state of UP where the Congress did not win one lousy seat out of 12 contested.

All polls suggested a hung assembly, not a victory for Shiv Sena. Enough rebels from Shiv Sena, BJP, Congress, NCP stood for election as Independents to split the vote. Cong-NCP combine just squeaked in with 143 out of 288 seats. They have one Independent supporting them. Who sre they going to elect Speaker of the Assembly - a Shiv Sena man so that they could retain a one-vote majority or one of their own?

I don`t intend to be any more generous to Sonia. She is already living rent-free, doesn`t pay any telephone bills, sitting on the Rs. 1,000 crore Indira Gandhi Foundation for Blah Blah Blah, has her retarded son AND daughter in the running for Prime Ministership in the future, etc., etc., etc. Enough is enough.

Ref#13,14... Interesting comments by both and different viewpoints looking at same data.
My feeling is both are right in some way. My favourite female relative in India married a maratha brahmin and then I started looking at newspapers and little drawing my own conclusions.
All India politics is caste calculus more and more. ( it may change with time as people become urbanised and vertical and horizontal integration taking placein castes due to illness of love, marriage and garbage valgur ( though have not seen any if correct- have not seen any movies in decades- physical ailments, some may think mental ailments) ). So getting victory is fine tuning this caste equations if flexible little stretching little here and there matching boundary conditions. Some places basic caste equations remain but boundary conditions are undefined are part of unknown where dramatic upsets can occur. It appears that Congress was at this game best for first forty years as it was nonidealogical and *oppositions was lost as they did not believe in caste centricness of elections (* that is political romanticism related to idealogy of left or right and religious leaning organizations) or were theoretical scientists trying for ideal solutions. My feeling is in this game parties can make recover small tactical mistakes but if they make stategis caste mistakes in selection they they have made blunders, wrong caste candidate will loose.
With time others learned to play same games. That had advantage in sense even small marginalised castes can demand attention. As all contenstants began to put demografic candidates it was hard for all. Before Congress had edge of putting caste candidates others followed same way and put Congress in congress and excelled in states like UP, Bihar etc.
This lead of major castes people joining different parties as in Maratha state. From news in times of India many candidates were ready for any party if they get ticket. It appears that due to that Bjp lost upper caste character but became vehicle for lowermiddle caste aspirations and this has damaging effect as antiupper class combination under congress leadership collapsed for ever. This slow disintegrating fact and time will be required for four cycles ( 4X4=16, 4=no of elections and 4= time period of normal assembly time). Small castes got benefit as candidates from all parties ( with dominant caste membership) have to appease small castes if they want to get elected. So they have to look after these peoples interests. Dominence of one caste is had as like in Eastern Punjab ( India) Dalit are more marginalised than say in Bihar and tension is more higher amoung Jath Sikhs and other backward Sikh castes. So india case more number of castes is better than less.
In maratha state last time 156 maratha caste members in 288 numbers. This dominat caste is in trouble as backwards will not be too happy too long taking symbolic left overs. Its over long term loosing game for maratha caste people and only one has to see how gracefully they will accept demographic democratic outcome. In sense politics will become much like usa , both parties are same for majority. One thing for sure the close results shows long term democratic ethos increments and less marginalization of minor castes.
One can not say much uness one can give caste numbers of elected members and how dominant maratha caste did ( parties do not count). If the number is decreased then there that process has started if not its stalled but over long time they will go near demographic democratic averages -thanks to british system of democracy of direct presentation not republic style in as in us of america. If somebody from india throws light with numbers can help.

Harrymau Iyer suggest site about india music , its great thanks for that. ( much contribution by Parrakar), It helped me lost to understand theory of indian music to some extent. Then he gave comment by some won challenging god to show more than he has proposed. He was extraordinary person. I looked in number of notes available, combinations possible nCr, rejecting impossible sequense of nates understood by simple calculation the brilliance.

My general policy is not to criticize Kafirs ( nonmuslims). I do that I do not know much about kafirs and we have lots of problems ( you can name it) in Muslim Ummah. We should criticize ourself and refrain from criticizing Kafirs. They can manage their house we need to manage ours. Self criticism is useful other way is useless and illogical.

so in that tradition Mr. Iyer told us story of Civil engineer Hindu how could not name euation of caternary. ( Mr. Iyer , too much to ask for young man as engineers limit is sin and cosin but Cosh sinh is like amature facing Kumble in form on mat). We muslims also can match in that. When I was working in Hospatality business i had some times chance to ask questions to mechanical engineers . My favourite was as follows. `` I am not engineer but want know some little about engg. Tell me what are units of pressure ? Answer was pounds/sqare feet. What are units of height of water? answer was feet , very good. They I will ask tell me how pressure is meaured in height? NED grads as well as us trained engineers were at loss.( no affront to engineers)
Conclusions: we have sufficient educated fools. We do not have to say they are on otherside of border.

Kaurasach/02 - democracy is democracy, and bought for hooch or spin, or otherwise, valuable.

ahmedbilal/03 - I agree that comparisons are not very apt when quantifiable poverty varies so drastically. Having said that, you can not deny the fact that India is one of the few countries in the world where the votes from the poor now count.

HP/04, dm/14, romair/16 - I said ``Muslim feudals``. I did not say ``Kashmir feudals``. I stand by what I said, in Punjabi and English.

rajsinghi/09 - this was a very brief book review, to get into detail you may wish to read the book itself? As for the authors, well, they were the only ones who got the results of the last general Election correct, so I guess that gives them some validation?

Mantolives/06 & 07 - why me?

``#14 by dost-mittar on October 17, 2004 6:29am PT``

Dost,,

It was hight of Durga Pooja when Sikhs , Yes Sardars.. Your Born love, killed two small girls and a son... and two unsuspecting adults. None.. None were either Sardar or Muslims (Both you love so much). I must completely agree only Sadrdars and Muslims (your new found love) are who can claim to be honest, true, Blah.. Blah.. Blahh...Seculars can on;y be Serds or ...

It was far to many years ago. It was Durga Puja in Kolkatta. I saw it personally.

Every single day I wait from B like you to.... well oppo. The girls age was three and five.. So much for your Serd B business. Please send me a URL where B like you oppolog...

If Serds murdered Hindus, it was OK. Root cause. When Hindoos kill Serds.. Well... SOB.

Do you know my own G got killed by your ..

Go and put your knees down. In front of Urs and FV.

And pay taxes to country called Canada and Pakistan. You are not wanted here.

Thanks but no thanks

Vereesh/HP/dost-mittar: ``That this upsets a large number of the Muslim feudals in POK, who view this as a land-grab, could probably explain much of the angst about trying to ``save Kashmir`` that keeps emanating from across the border``

Vereesh, for heavens sake, have a heart. I am almost to the point where I will stop reading anything you write, about Pakistan. If you were just a normal Indian with his/her biases, I could understand. But, I believe, you are actually a journalist. If this is what the journalists in India are taught, about Pakistan, then Bhagwan save us.

For starters, have you ever been to POK? Do you know anything about the people, villages, social customs of the area? If not, then don`t you think it is a good idea to follow the rule: ``It is better to remain quite and have everyone think one is a fool, then to open one`s mouth and remove all doubt.``

What HP has written about POK is basically correct. POK (or Azad Kashmir as Kashmiris call it) is the most feudal-less area of Pakistan. It has no feudals (thank God). My extended family is probably about as close to a feudal as you will find there. And I am sitting in North America. If I had enough land in Kashmir, I would be sitting on my land holdings there, not in a apartment in cold North America.

On my last trip to Pakistan, the PM of Kashmir visited us. He travels with a a smaller entorouge than the average Pakistani Provincial Assembly member. And owns less land than your average Pakistani Brigadier. Pakstani Kashmir consisted of poor people in 47. Anyone who was (is) anybody migrated to Punjab or to Bradford and Birmingham. That is one of the reasons I grew up in Islamabad and not in Muzzafarabad.

The only, ``land`` that individuals from Kashmir got was due to military service, under the British, or due to evacuee property, in 1947. And they took that land in Pakistan`s four provinces, not in Kashmir, since land in Pakistan was worth a lot more. And the extent of that land was generally one acre or a few, ``murabbas.`` ``Feudals`` tend to have land in the thousands of acres; not one acre sizes.

But just to keep things honest, can you name one prominent Pakistani feudal from Kashmir (other than me). And can you name one prominent Pakistani fedual politician from POK? If not, then can I kindly request you to do your research on Pakistan properly, before providing us with information............

P.S. Afer reading this, I am seriously doubting whether the Islamabad-Lahore motorway was built by Indian Army Engineering corps, and Pak-Suzuki is actually headquartered in Amritsar..........You had me going on that for a while. Just goes to show, one should stop, when one is ahead........

harimau miaN -- that`s indeed a great spin -- congratulations -- I agree with your assessment -- in every win there is defeat for the winner......the Sena.....:-)

Veeresh:
The good thing about the rise of the regional parties is that India is finally becoming a true federation, where the Centre cannot always dictate its will and has to respond to regional aspirations. The flip side is that with one or more provinces facing elections every year, the federal govt. is almost always functioning in an electoral mode which makes it difficult to take difficult decisions, which sometimes require short time pain for long term gain.

About Kashmir, I tend to agree with HP. I suspect that most of the landlords were not Kashmiris (of either Bhatt or Butt variety!) but dogras, i.e., belonging to the Maharaja`s clan. So, the muslims only gained from land reforms. As for POK, any dogra landlords presumably were thrown out/left and so were no threat to anyone. Though I disagree with him regarding that being the cause for the removal of Sheikh Abdullah. He was removed by his friend Nehru who had no sympathy for any landlord regardless of his religion.

harimou:
Statistics notwithstanding, this has to be treated as a big defeat for the BJP-Sena combine. With the NCP-Congress govt.`s dismal performance and the huge dissatisfaction of the people with it, the election should have been a walk-in for the opposition. So, this election should be considered more as a vote against the BJP-Sena than a vote for the govt.
And you could be a bit more generous towards Sonia. Though no tigress, she certainly seems to have developed a halo around her since her `raajya-tyaag` and handing over the `kharhaaon` to Manmohan Singh. I cant help thinking how her name would almost certainly have been in mud if she had chosen to be the PM herself. Reunciation pays in the `hindooland`.

Ref Ralph #10

[Nasah

Got to say that Sonia HAS silenced her critics, including me. If she actually does turn into a tigress, she may even do India some good. ]

Why expend some brainpower in thinking if ine can listen to sound bites from talking heads?

Congress actually lost 6.9% of the popular vote compared to the 1999 elections. BJP lost 1.3% but lost only one seat; Congress went from 75 seats to 68 seats. Sharad Pawar`s NCP went from 68 to 71 but lost 4.35% in popular vote. Shiv Sena gained 2.11% though it lost 7 seats. Congress has the most popular vote at 20.26% followed by Shiv Sena at 19.49%. With 18.20% for the NCP and 13.2% for the BJP, it is obvious that the winners won and the losers lost because of the first-past-the-post electoral system and everybody retained his party`s strongholds and not because it proportionately represents the wishes of the populace.

However, all of this is irrelevant for people like you and nasah. This is the month where we have groups of people going around the streets singing bhajans much like people going carolling during Christmas. People like you need to re-write all the bhajans and substitute Sonia for Durga and Indira for her vehicle the lion (I know you guys you used to call Indira Gandhi the Durga but mercifully she is dead, thank God, so you can now sing Sonia`s praises and after all Sonia is riding on Indira`s name). Singing such bhajans in front of Sonia`s house might give you some personal satisfaction.... you may not be allowed for security reasons to get closer to her butt to kiss it.

10
//...If she actually does turn into a tigress, she may even do India some good. ..//

Hold your horses there ..... these so-called tigers, tigresses, lions, lionesses have never done any good anywhere - let alone in India.

Anything good that has ever come out of Indian democracy in last 55 odd years was actually done by folks who acted and worked more like ants ( use some other ``lowly`` animal/pest, if you will ). They are Rao and Manmohan Singh - folks who had no pretentions of being declared after those royal beasts, the attributes of which we are so fond of bestowing on all sorts of characters, otherwise called ``leaders`` in modern India.

Isn`t Bal Thackeray called the Tiger of Bombay .... or some sh!t like that??

To do India some good, all that ``tigress`` sonia has to do is to keep her bu!tt out of gov`t affairs .... so that the little mouse named Manmohan Singh(to complete the irony, the mouse is actually named after the Lion) can get some good jobs done.

``I quiz other Hurriyat leaders about their reluctance to contest elections. ``Why don`t you demonstrate your electoral strength,`` I ask, ``win elections and then refuse to sit in Parliament or government?``

This is only logical, I argue, considering that every time India and Pakistan smoke the peace pipe, the Kashmiri leaders complain that their voices are being ignored. To Syed Ali Shah Geelani, I ask, ``If you don`t fight elections, who will represent the Kashmiris?``

They fear the election would be rigged against them?if only to embarrass them before their people. ``Ask for elections under the UN then,`` I suggest. Geelani seems to agree.

The mainstream Kashmiri politicians are a refreshing change.

I have never supported the democratic aberration of dynastic politics. But meetings with Mehbooba Mufti and Omar Abdullah prompt me to revise my views: they are genial, clear in their views, and don`t duck inconvenient questions.

Lesson No. 6: Hurriyat is divided, DNA works in politics.``
(Pakistani journalist Mariana Baabar after trip to Srinagar)

AhmadBilal #3 makes the clearest remark. It does read like a feel-good article (Manto #6).

HP

Tariq Ali acknowledges that the problem of looking down on the other was not one-sided. Muslim League feudals everywhere looked down upon poor Muslims and Hindus. In both cases, this is only a partial explanation of what happened in 1947.


Nasah

Got to say that Sonia HAS silenced her critics, including me. If she actually does turn into a tigress, she may even do India some good.

Veeresh

Following has been written by Shahid, in post#8

Quote:

`` Your article doesn`t say anything and is really a bizarre concoction of disparate thoughts. You title your article: ``How that Other Democracy (India) Differs``. So...how does it differ? It is a title/question, which warrants serious thought of which you have shown none. ``

Actually, this makes quite a bit of sense. Title of the aricle is really catchy and accordingly, one was expecting to see some serious thoughts, comparisons in the article but, as noticed by Shahid, there hardly is any which warrants the title that has been given to the article.

Quote from the article:

`` Anybody who claims to be interested in Indian politics is well advised to read this book if they want to get into the depth of many of the widely held perceptions about Indian politics. ``

This is a very strong statement. One would be bit sceptical about it. Surely, it is not expected that those two gentlemen are the last word on Indian politics...

Veeresh,
Your article doesn`t say anything and is really a bizarre concoction of disparate thoughts. You title your article: ``How that Other Democracy (India) Differs``. So...how does it differ? It is a title/question, which warrants serious thought of which you have shown none. You then mix in your crock-melange the fact that the United States has a bipolar election process, a business gathering you attended, and a book which was presented to you called ``A Time of Coalitions; Divided we Stand`` (which you found ``highly readable``). Then there is the question of language...whatever do you mean when you write:

``Divided we Stand`` brings out, very evocatively, how India would probably benefit from a multi-dimensional political system, with self-correctives born out of practical compulsions and traditions rather than untested and shallow ideologies.``

I have read this sentence about ten times and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Incoherent writing reflects incoherent thoughts. Take some pride in the quality of what you post...

Drivel about how superior, developed, progressive and modern India is by Veeresh...
and the return of the Paki-Basher no1 Sadna on the same day. Brilliant! Though the title betrays a comparison with the US... but it is nothing more than a feel good article by a ``scoundrel`` who as a last resort has sought to make a favorable comparison and contrast with that nation they constantly denounce as ``bankrupt``, ``undemocratic``, ``bigoted`` etc. Surely you don`t need to make comparisons with that country to prove yourself superior...