How that Other Democracy (India) Differs
Veeresh Malik October 15, 2004
#1 Posted by kaurasach on October 15, 2004 4:48:50 pm
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#2 Posted by kaurasach on October 15, 2004 4:48:50 pm
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#3 Posted by HP on October 15, 2004 10:49:14 pm
“For readers at The Chowk, of topical interest may be a special reference to the Jammu & Kashmir issue, with the role of the National Conference therein. One of the lesser known facts about J&K is that it was amongst the earliest states in India to actually go through with land reforms, way back in 1950, thus making landowners out of tenants and peasants. That this upsets a large number of the Muslim feudals in POK, who view this as a land-grab, could probably explain much of the angst about trying to ``save Kashmir`` that keeps emanating from across the border.”
Veeresh,
You really have to make this point stick. It is just an assertion that has no legs. Let’s look at it this way. I don’t know how you determine feudal. Is it the land holding size or it is just the cultural thing as in feudal culture? No matter how you look at it, the part that eventually became POK, as you call it, was actually the poorest part of the pre 1947 Kashmir. (Whole state was poor then and still is.) What you term feudal, on Pak side of Kashmir, were most likely, some people with really small land holdings and they cannot be called feudal in any form or shape.
Most of the feudal were part of ruling class of Kashmir and were still in the Indian Occupied Kashmir. It was in Sheikh Abdullah’s interest to get rid of them to secure his political future. Did it have any impact on Pakistani side of Kashmir at all? There is no evidence to prove that.
A cursory study would tell that most of the feudal were related to Maharaja and most likely Hindu due to their relationship with the Maharaja. So, Hindu Feudal were probably trying to save their lands when they supported the removal and arrest of Sheikh Abdullah in 1951!
Kashmir issue is not as simple as you make it out to be.
Here is what the Kashmir Chief minister Albion Bannerji, the British-approved Chief Minister of Kashmir, said about Kashmiri Muslims in 1930s. `The large Muslim population,` he said, `is absolutely illiterate, labouring under poverty and very low economic conditions of living in the villages and practically governed like dumb driven cattle.`
Those governing them were Hindu Feudal of Maharaja family.
Some more quotes from Tariq Ali’s book “Bitter Chill of Winter”.
“Non-Muslims in Kashmir were mainly Hindus, dominated by the Pandits, upper-caste Brahmins who looked down on Muslims, Sikhs and low-caste Hindus alike”
“…the Maharaja`s purchase of a Cadillac. When His Highness drove the car to Pehalgam, admiring peasants surrounded it and strewed fresh grass in front of it. The Maharaja acknowledged their presence by letting them touch the car. A few peasants began to cry. `Why are you crying?` asked their ruler. `We are upset,` one of them replied, `because your new animal refuses to eat grass.`”
Here is what Pandit Nehru, himself a Kashmiri (barely though) said about Kashmirs and Punjabis etc.
“Nehru, asked at a dinner the next day how he compared the regions he had visited most recently, replied: `Punjabis are crude, Bengalis are hysterical and the Kashmiris are simply vulgar.`”
Richard Whately put it rightly and I quote for your benefit: “He who is unaware of his ignorance will be only misled by his knowledge.”
Veeresh,
You really have to make this point stick. It is just an assertion that has no legs. Let’s look at it this way. I don’t know how you determine feudal. Is it the land holding size or it is just the cultural thing as in feudal culture? No matter how you look at it, the part that eventually became POK, as you call it, was actually the poorest part of the pre 1947 Kashmir. (Whole state was poor then and still is.) What you term feudal, on Pak side of Kashmir, were most likely, some people with really small land holdings and they cannot be called feudal in any form or shape.
Most of the feudal were part of ruling class of Kashmir and were still in the Indian Occupied Kashmir. It was in Sheikh Abdullah’s interest to get rid of them to secure his political future. Did it have any impact on Pakistani side of Kashmir at all? There is no evidence to prove that.
A cursory study would tell that most of the feudal were related to Maharaja and most likely Hindu due to their relationship with the Maharaja. So, Hindu Feudal were probably trying to save their lands when they supported the removal and arrest of Sheikh Abdullah in 1951!
Kashmir issue is not as simple as you make it out to be.
Here is what the Kashmir Chief minister Albion Bannerji, the British-approved Chief Minister of Kashmir, said about Kashmiri Muslims in 1930s. `The large Muslim population,` he said, `is absolutely illiterate, labouring under poverty and very low economic conditions of living in the villages and practically governed like dumb driven cattle.`
Those governing them were Hindu Feudal of Maharaja family.
Some more quotes from Tariq Ali’s book “Bitter Chill of Winter”.
“Non-Muslims in Kashmir were mainly Hindus, dominated by the Pandits, upper-caste Brahmins who looked down on Muslims, Sikhs and low-caste Hindus alike”
“…the Maharaja`s purchase of a Cadillac. When His Highness drove the car to Pehalgam, admiring peasants surrounded it and strewed fresh grass in front of it. The Maharaja acknowledged their presence by letting them touch the car. A few peasants began to cry. `Why are you crying?` asked their ruler. `We are upset,` one of them replied, `because your new animal refuses to eat grass.`”
Here is what Pandit Nehru, himself a Kashmiri (barely though) said about Kashmirs and Punjabis etc.
“Nehru, asked at a dinner the next day how he compared the regions he had visited most recently, replied: `Punjabis are crude, Bengalis are hysterical and the Kashmiris are simply vulgar.`”
Richard Whately put it rightly and I quote for your benefit: “He who is unaware of his ignorance will be only misled by his knowledge.”
#4 Posted by AhmadBilal on October 15, 2004 10:49:14 pm
A comment about the closing remark:
You can actually dig further into your remark and come to the real conclusion that the big difference between India and the developed countries is the huge proportion of poor people in India. Unless this issue of poverty in the third world is addressed, any comparisons with the developed countries are quite useless.
You can actually dig further into your remark and come to the real conclusion that the big difference between India and the developed countries is the huge proportion of poor people in India. Unless this issue of poverty in the third world is addressed, any comparisons with the developed countries are quite useless.
#5 Posted by nasah on October 16, 2004 7:16:48 am
today in Maha Maha Rashtra -- the election results have turned ``Veer Savarkar`` into a ``Gambheer Savarkar``......
from J&K to Manipur -- the Vultures have been chased away by a lioness and her packs of local lions all across India -- the juveniles MMPs -- Mulayams, Mayawatis and Paswans -- should join the pack......they should be happy -- their STUPID attempts to divide the secular vote failed miserably......
this is India`s Homecoming with a bang...
from J&K to Manipur -- the Vultures have been chased away by a lioness and her packs of local lions all across India -- the juveniles MMPs -- Mulayams, Mayawatis and Paswans -- should join the pack......they should be happy -- their STUPID attempts to divide the secular vote failed miserably......
this is India`s Homecoming with a bang...
#6 Posted by MantoLives on October 16, 2004 7:16:49 am
Well said HP...
Ofcourse to Veeresh who is blinded by delusions of greatness , your logic will not make any sense.
Prepare to be declared an Islamist Pakistani fanatic.
Ofcourse to Veeresh who is blinded by delusions of greatness , your logic will not make any sense.
Prepare to be declared an Islamist Pakistani fanatic.
#7 Posted by MantoLives on October 16, 2004 7:16:49 am
Drivel about how superior, developed, progressive and modern India is by Veeresh...
and the return of the Paki-Basher no1 Sadna on the same day. Brilliant! Though the title betrays a comparison with the US... but it is nothing more than a feel good article by a ``scoundrel`` who as a last resort has sought to make a favorable comparison and contrast with that nation they constantly denounce as ``bankrupt``, ``undemocratic``, ``bigoted`` etc. Surely you don`t need to make comparisons with that country to prove yourself superior...
#8 Posted by Shahid on October 16, 2004 10:59:35 am
Veeresh,
Your article doesn`t say anything and is really a bizarre concoction of disparate thoughts. You title your article: ``How that Other Democracy (India) Differs``. So...how does it differ? It is a title/question, which warrants serious thought of which you have shown none. You then mix in your crock-melange the fact that the United States has a bipolar election process, a business gathering you attended, and a book which was presented to you called ``A Time of Coalitions; Divided we Stand`` (which you found ``highly readable``). Then there is the question of language...whatever do you mean when you write:
``Divided we Stand`` brings out, very evocatively, how India would probably benefit from a multi-dimensional political system, with self-correctives born out of practical compulsions and traditions rather than untested and shallow ideologies.``
I have read this sentence about ten times and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Incoherent writing reflects incoherent thoughts. Take some pride in the quality of what you post...
#9 Posted by rajsinghi1 on October 16, 2004 12:12:49 pm
Veeresh
Following has been written by Shahid, in post#8
Quote:
`` Your article doesn`t say anything and is really a bizarre concoction of disparate thoughts. You title your article: ``How that Other Democracy (India) Differs``. So...how does it differ? It is a title/question, which warrants serious thought of which you have shown none. ``
Actually, this makes quite a bit of sense. Title of the aricle is really catchy and accordingly, one was expecting to see some serious thoughts, comparisons in the article but, as noticed by Shahid, there hardly is any which warrants the title that has been given to the article.
Quote from the article:
`` Anybody who claims to be interested in Indian politics is well advised to read this book if they want to get into the depth of many of the widely held perceptions about Indian politics. ``
This is a very strong statement. One would be bit sceptical about it. Surely, it is not expected that those two gentlemen are the last word on Indian politics...
Following has been written by Shahid, in post#8
Quote:
`` Your article doesn`t say anything and is really a bizarre concoction of disparate thoughts. You title your article: ``How that Other Democracy (India) Differs``. So...how does it differ? It is a title/question, which warrants serious thought of which you have shown none. ``
Actually, this makes quite a bit of sense. Title of the aricle is really catchy and accordingly, one was expecting to see some serious thoughts, comparisons in the article but, as noticed by Shahid, there hardly is any which warrants the title that has been given to the article.
Quote from the article:
`` Anybody who claims to be interested in Indian politics is well advised to read this book if they want to get into the depth of many of the widely held perceptions about Indian politics. ``
This is a very strong statement. One would be bit sceptical about it. Surely, it is not expected that those two gentlemen are the last word on Indian politics...
#10 Posted by Ralph on October 16, 2004 2:48:29 pm
AhmadBilal #3 makes the clearest remark. It does read like a feel-good article (Manto #6).
HP
Tariq Ali acknowledges that the problem of looking down on the other was not one-sided. Muslim League feudals everywhere looked down upon poor Muslims and Hindus. In both cases, this is only a partial explanation of what happened in 1947.
Nasah
Got to say that Sonia HAS silenced her critics, including me. If she actually does turn into a tigress, she may even do India some good.
HP
Tariq Ali acknowledges that the problem of looking down on the other was not one-sided. Muslim League feudals everywhere looked down upon poor Muslims and Hindus. In both cases, this is only a partial explanation of what happened in 1947.
Nasah
Got to say that Sonia HAS silenced her critics, including me. If she actually does turn into a tigress, she may even do India some good.
#11 Posted by nasah on October 16, 2004 4:11:56 pm
``I quiz other Hurriyat leaders about their reluctance to contest elections. ``Why don`t you demonstrate your electoral strength,`` I ask, ``win elections and then refuse to sit in Parliament or government?``
This is only logical, I argue, considering that every time India and Pakistan smoke the peace pipe, the Kashmiri leaders complain that their voices are being ignored. To Syed Ali Shah Geelani, I ask, ``If you don`t fight elections, who will represent the Kashmiris?``
They fear the election would be rigged against them?if only to embarrass them before their people. ``Ask for elections under the UN then,`` I suggest. Geelani seems to agree.
The mainstream Kashmiri politicians are a refreshing change.
I have never supported the democratic aberration of dynastic politics. But meetings with Mehbooba Mufti and Omar Abdullah prompt me to revise my views: they are genial, clear in their views, and don`t duck inconvenient questions.
Lesson No. 6: Hurriyat is divided, DNA works in politics.``
(Pakistani journalist Mariana Baabar after trip to Srinagar)
This is only logical, I argue, considering that every time India and Pakistan smoke the peace pipe, the Kashmiri leaders complain that their voices are being ignored. To Syed Ali Shah Geelani, I ask, ``If you don`t fight elections, who will represent the Kashmiris?``
They fear the election would be rigged against them?if only to embarrass them before their people. ``Ask for elections under the UN then,`` I suggest. Geelani seems to agree.
The mainstream Kashmiri politicians are a refreshing change.
I have never supported the democratic aberration of dynastic politics. But meetings with Mehbooba Mufti and Omar Abdullah prompt me to revise my views: they are genial, clear in their views, and don`t duck inconvenient questions.
Lesson No. 6: Hurriyat is divided, DNA works in politics.``
(Pakistani journalist Mariana Baabar after trip to Srinagar)
#12 Posted by mohar11 on October 16, 2004 7:46:08 pm
10
//...If she actually does turn into a tigress, she may even do India some good. ..//
Hold your horses there ..... these so-called tigers, tigresses, lions, lionesses have never done any good anywhere - let alone in India.
Anything good that has ever come out of Indian democracy in last 55 odd years was actually done by folks who acted and worked more like ants ( use some other ``lowly`` animal/pest, if you will ). They are Rao and Manmohan Singh - folks who had no pretentions of being declared after those royal beasts, the attributes of which we are so fond of bestowing on all sorts of characters, otherwise called ``leaders`` in modern India.
Isn`t Bal Thackeray called the Tiger of Bombay .... or some sh!t like that??
To do India some good, all that ``tigress`` sonia has to do is to keep her bu!tt out of gov`t affairs .... so that the little mouse named Manmohan Singh(to complete the irony, the mouse is actually named after the Lion) can get some good jobs done.
//...If she actually does turn into a tigress, she may even do India some good. ..//
Hold your horses there ..... these so-called tigers, tigresses, lions, lionesses have never done any good anywhere - let alone in India.
Anything good that has ever come out of Indian democracy in last 55 odd years was actually done by folks who acted and worked more like ants ( use some other ``lowly`` animal/pest, if you will ). They are Rao and Manmohan Singh - folks who had no pretentions of being declared after those royal beasts, the attributes of which we are so fond of bestowing on all sorts of characters, otherwise called ``leaders`` in modern India.
Isn`t Bal Thackeray called the Tiger of Bombay .... or some sh!t like that??
To do India some good, all that ``tigress`` sonia has to do is to keep her bu!tt out of gov`t affairs .... so that the little mouse named Manmohan Singh(to complete the irony, the mouse is actually named after the Lion) can get some good jobs done.
#13 Posted by harimau on October 16, 2004 10:05:54 pm
Ref Ralph #10
[Nasah
Got to say that Sonia HAS silenced her critics, including me. If she actually does turn into a tigress, she may even do India some good. ]
Why expend some brainpower in thinking if ine can listen to sound bites from talking heads?
Congress actually lost 6.9% of the popular vote compared to the 1999 elections. BJP lost 1.3% but lost only one seat; Congress went from 75 seats to 68 seats. Sharad Pawar`s NCP went from 68 to 71 but lost 4.35% in popular vote. Shiv Sena gained 2.11% though it lost 7 seats. Congress has the most popular vote at 20.26% followed by Shiv Sena at 19.49%. With 18.20% for the NCP and 13.2% for the BJP, it is obvious that the winners won and the losers lost because of the first-past-the-post electoral system and everybody retained his party`s strongholds and not because it proportionately represents the wishes of the populace.
However, all of this is irrelevant for people like you and nasah. This is the month where we have groups of people going around the streets singing bhajans much like people going carolling during Christmas. People like you need to re-write all the bhajans and substitute Sonia for Durga and Indira for her vehicle the lion (I know you guys you used to call Indira Gandhi the Durga but mercifully she is dead, thank God, so you can now sing Sonia`s praises and after all Sonia is riding on Indira`s name). Singing such bhajans in front of Sonia`s house might give you some personal satisfaction.... you may not be allowed for security reasons to get closer to her butt to kiss it.
[Nasah
Got to say that Sonia HAS silenced her critics, including me. If she actually does turn into a tigress, she may even do India some good. ]
Why expend some brainpower in thinking if ine can listen to sound bites from talking heads?
Congress actually lost 6.9% of the popular vote compared to the 1999 elections. BJP lost 1.3% but lost only one seat; Congress went from 75 seats to 68 seats. Sharad Pawar`s NCP went from 68 to 71 but lost 4.35% in popular vote. Shiv Sena gained 2.11% though it lost 7 seats. Congress has the most popular vote at 20.26% followed by Shiv Sena at 19.49%. With 18.20% for the NCP and 13.2% for the BJP, it is obvious that the winners won and the losers lost because of the first-past-the-post electoral system and everybody retained his party`s strongholds and not because it proportionately represents the wishes of the populace.
However, all of this is irrelevant for people like you and nasah. This is the month where we have groups of people going around the streets singing bhajans much like people going carolling during Christmas. People like you need to re-write all the bhajans and substitute Sonia for Durga and Indira for her vehicle the lion (I know you guys you used to call Indira Gandhi the Durga but mercifully she is dead, thank God, so you can now sing Sonia`s praises and after all Sonia is riding on Indira`s name). Singing such bhajans in front of Sonia`s house might give you some personal satisfaction.... you may not be allowed for security reasons to get closer to her butt to kiss it.
#14 Posted by dost_mittar on October 17, 2004 6:29:04 am
Veeresh:
The good thing about the rise of the regional parties is that India is finally becoming a true federation, where the Centre cannot always dictate its will and has to respond to regional aspirations. The flip side is that with one or more provinces facing elections every year, the federal govt. is almost always functioning in an electoral mode which makes it difficult to take difficult decisions, which sometimes require short time pain for long term gain.
About Kashmir, I tend to agree with HP. I suspect that most of the landlords were not Kashmiris (of either Bhatt or Butt variety!) but dogras, i.e., belonging to the Maharaja`s clan. So, the muslims only gained from land reforms. As for POK, any dogra landlords presumably were thrown out/left and so were no threat to anyone. Though I disagree with him regarding that being the cause for the removal of Sheikh Abdullah. He was removed by his friend Nehru who had no sympathy for any landlord regardless of his religion.
harimou:
Statistics notwithstanding, this has to be treated as a big defeat for the BJP-Sena combine. With the NCP-Congress govt.`s dismal performance and the huge dissatisfaction of the people with it, the election should have been a walk-in for the opposition. So, this election should be considered more as a vote against the BJP-Sena than a vote for the govt.
And you could be a bit more generous towards Sonia. Though no tigress, she certainly seems to have developed a halo around her since her `raajya-tyaag` and handing over the `kharhaaon` to Manmohan Singh. I cant help thinking how her name would almost certainly have been in mud if she had chosen to be the PM herself. Reunciation pays in the `hindooland`.
The good thing about the rise of the regional parties is that India is finally becoming a true federation, where the Centre cannot always dictate its will and has to respond to regional aspirations. The flip side is that with one or more provinces facing elections every year, the federal govt. is almost always functioning in an electoral mode which makes it difficult to take difficult decisions, which sometimes require short time pain for long term gain.
About Kashmir, I tend to agree with HP. I suspect that most of the landlords were not Kashmiris (of either Bhatt or Butt variety!) but dogras, i.e., belonging to the Maharaja`s clan. So, the muslims only gained from land reforms. As for POK, any dogra landlords presumably were thrown out/left and so were no threat to anyone. Though I disagree with him regarding that being the cause for the removal of Sheikh Abdullah. He was removed by his friend Nehru who had no sympathy for any landlord regardless of his religion.
harimou:
Statistics notwithstanding, this has to be treated as a big defeat for the BJP-Sena combine. With the NCP-Congress govt.`s dismal performance and the huge dissatisfaction of the people with it, the election should have been a walk-in for the opposition. So, this election should be considered more as a vote against the BJP-Sena than a vote for the govt.
And you could be a bit more generous towards Sonia. Though no tigress, she certainly seems to have developed a halo around her since her `raajya-tyaag` and handing over the `kharhaaon` to Manmohan Singh. I cant help thinking how her name would almost certainly have been in mud if she had chosen to be the PM herself. Reunciation pays in the `hindooland`.
#15 Posted by nasah on October 17, 2004 7:53:33 am
harimau miaN -- that`s indeed a great spin -- congratulations -- I agree with your assessment -- in every win there is defeat for the winner......the Sena.....:-)
#16 Posted by Romair on October 17, 2004 9:08:56 am
Vereesh/HP/dost-mittar: ``That this upsets a large number of the Muslim feudals in POK, who view this as a land-grab, could probably explain much of the angst about trying to ``save Kashmir`` that keeps emanating from across the border``
Vereesh, for heavens sake, have a heart. I am almost to the point where I will stop reading anything you write, about Pakistan. If you were just a normal Indian with his/her biases, I could understand. But, I believe, you are actually a journalist. If this is what the journalists in India are taught, about Pakistan, then Bhagwan save us.
For starters, have you ever been to POK? Do you know anything about the people, villages, social customs of the area? If not, then don`t you think it is a good idea to follow the rule: ``It is better to remain quite and have everyone think one is a fool, then to open one`s mouth and remove all doubt.``
What HP has written about POK is basically correct. POK (or Azad Kashmir as Kashmiris call it) is the most feudal-less area of Pakistan. It has no feudals (thank God). My extended family is probably about as close to a feudal as you will find there. And I am sitting in North America. If I had enough land in Kashmir, I would be sitting on my land holdings there, not in a apartment in cold North America.
On my last trip to Pakistan, the PM of Kashmir visited us. He travels with a a smaller entorouge than the average Pakistani Provincial Assembly member. And owns less land than your average Pakistani Brigadier. Pakstani Kashmir consisted of poor people in 47. Anyone who was (is) anybody migrated to Punjab or to Bradford and Birmingham. That is one of the reasons I grew up in Islamabad and not in Muzzafarabad.
The only, ``land`` that individuals from Kashmir got was due to military service, under the British, or due to evacuee property, in 1947. And they took that land in Pakistan`s four provinces, not in Kashmir, since land in Pakistan was worth a lot more. And the extent of that land was generally one acre or a few, ``murabbas.`` ``Feudals`` tend to have land in the thousands of acres; not one acre sizes.
But just to keep things honest, can you name one prominent Pakistani feudal from Kashmir (other than me). And can you name one prominent Pakistani fedual politician from POK? If not, then can I kindly request you to do your research on Pakistan properly, before providing us with information............
P.S. Afer reading this, I am seriously doubting whether the Islamabad-Lahore motorway was built by Indian Army Engineering corps, and Pak-Suzuki is actually headquartered in Amritsar..........You had me going on that for a while. Just goes to show, one should stop, when one is ahead........
Vereesh, for heavens sake, have a heart. I am almost to the point where I will stop reading anything you write, about Pakistan. If you were just a normal Indian with his/her biases, I could understand. But, I believe, you are actually a journalist. If this is what the journalists in India are taught, about Pakistan, then Bhagwan save us.
For starters, have you ever been to POK? Do you know anything about the people, villages, social customs of the area? If not, then don`t you think it is a good idea to follow the rule: ``It is better to remain quite and have everyone think one is a fool, then to open one`s mouth and remove all doubt.``
What HP has written about POK is basically correct. POK (or Azad Kashmir as Kashmiris call it) is the most feudal-less area of Pakistan. It has no feudals (thank God). My extended family is probably about as close to a feudal as you will find there. And I am sitting in North America. If I had enough land in Kashmir, I would be sitting on my land holdings there, not in a apartment in cold North America.
On my last trip to Pakistan, the PM of Kashmir visited us. He travels with a a smaller entorouge than the average Pakistani Provincial Assembly member. And owns less land than your average Pakistani Brigadier. Pakstani Kashmir consisted of poor people in 47. Anyone who was (is) anybody migrated to Punjab or to Bradford and Birmingham. That is one of the reasons I grew up in Islamabad and not in Muzzafarabad.
The only, ``land`` that individuals from Kashmir got was due to military service, under the British, or due to evacuee property, in 1947. And they took that land in Pakistan`s four provinces, not in Kashmir, since land in Pakistan was worth a lot more. And the extent of that land was generally one acre or a few, ``murabbas.`` ``Feudals`` tend to have land in the thousands of acres; not one acre sizes.
But just to keep things honest, can you name one prominent Pakistani feudal from Kashmir (other than me). And can you name one prominent Pakistani fedual politician from POK? If not, then can I kindly request you to do your research on Pakistan properly, before providing us with information............
P.S. Afer reading this, I am seriously doubting whether the Islamabad-Lahore motorway was built by Indian Army Engineering corps, and Pak-Suzuki is actually headquartered in Amritsar..........You had me going on that for a while. Just goes to show, one should stop, when one is ahead........
#17 Posted by yogiraj on October 17, 2004 9:34:37 am
``#14 by dost-mittar on October 17, 2004 6:29am PT``
Dost,,
It was hight of Durga Pooja when Sikhs , Yes Sardars.. Your Born love, killed two small girls and a son... and two unsuspecting adults. None.. None were either Sardar or Muslims (Both you love so much). I must completely agree only Sadrdars and Muslims (your new found love) are who can claim to be honest, true, Blah.. Blah.. Blahh...Seculars can on;y be Serds or ...
It was far to many years ago. It was Durga Puja in Kolkatta. I saw it personally.
Every single day I wait from B like you to.... well oppo. The girls age was three and five.. So much for your Serd B business. Please send me a URL where B like you oppolog...
If Serds murdered Hindus, it was OK. Root cause. When Hindoos kill Serds.. Well... SOB.
Do you know my own G got killed by your ..
Go and put your knees down. In front of Urs and FV.
And pay taxes to country called Canada and Pakistan. You are not wanted here.
Thanks but no thanks
Dost,,
It was hight of Durga Pooja when Sikhs , Yes Sardars.. Your Born love, killed two small girls and a son... and two unsuspecting adults. None.. None were either Sardar or Muslims (Both you love so much). I must completely agree only Sadrdars and Muslims (your new found love) are who can claim to be honest, true, Blah.. Blah.. Blahh...Seculars can on;y be Serds or ...
It was far to many years ago. It was Durga Puja in Kolkatta. I saw it personally.
Every single day I wait from B like you to.... well oppo. The girls age was three and five.. So much for your Serd B business. Please send me a URL where B like you oppolog...
If Serds murdered Hindus, it was OK. Root cause. When Hindoos kill Serds.. Well... SOB.
Do you know my own G got killed by your ..
Go and put your knees down. In front of Urs and FV.
And pay taxes to country called Canada and Pakistan. You are not wanted here.
Thanks but no thanks
#18 Posted by veeresh on October 17, 2004 9:44:52 am
Kaurasach/02 - democracy is democracy, and bought for hooch or spin, or otherwise, valuable.
ahmedbilal/03 - I agree that comparisons are not very apt when quantifiable poverty varies so drastically. Having said that, you can not deny the fact that India is one of the few countries in the world where the votes from the poor now count.
HP/04, dm/14, romair/16 - I said ``Muslim feudals``. I did not say ``Kashmir feudals``. I stand by what I said, in Punjabi and English.
rajsinghi/09 - this was a very brief book review, to get into detail you may wish to read the book itself? As for the authors, well, they were the only ones who got the results of the last general Election correct, so I guess that gives them some validation?
Mantolives/06 & 07 - why me?
ahmedbilal/03 - I agree that comparisons are not very apt when quantifiable poverty varies so drastically. Having said that, you can not deny the fact that India is one of the few countries in the world where the votes from the poor now count.
HP/04, dm/14, romair/16 - I said ``Muslim feudals``. I did not say ``Kashmir feudals``. I stand by what I said, in Punjabi and English.
rajsinghi/09 - this was a very brief book review, to get into detail you may wish to read the book itself? As for the authors, well, they were the only ones who got the results of the last general Election correct, so I guess that gives them some validation?
Mantolives/06 & 07 - why me?
#19 Posted by ahmedmadani on October 17, 2004 12:31:40 pm
Ref#13,14... Interesting comments by both and different viewpoints looking at same data.
My feeling is both are right in some way. My favourite female relative in India married a maratha brahmin and then I started looking at newspapers and little drawing my own conclusions.
All India politics is caste calculus more and more. ( it may change with time as people become urbanised and vertical and horizontal integration taking placein castes due to illness of love, marriage and garbage valgur ( though have not seen any if correct- have not seen any movies in decades- physical ailments, some may think mental ailments) ). So getting victory is fine tuning this caste equations if flexible little stretching little here and there matching boundary conditions. Some places basic caste equations remain but boundary conditions are undefined are part of unknown where dramatic upsets can occur. It appears that Congress was at this game best for first forty years as it was nonidealogical and *oppositions was lost as they did not believe in caste centricness of elections (* that is political romanticism related to idealogy of left or right and religious leaning organizations) or were theoretical scientists trying for ideal solutions. My feeling is in this game parties can make recover small tactical mistakes but if they make stategis caste mistakes in selection they they have made blunders, wrong caste candidate will loose.
With time others learned to play same games. That had advantage in sense even small marginalised castes can demand attention. As all contenstants began to put demografic candidates it was hard for all. Before Congress had edge of putting caste candidates others followed same way and put Congress in congress and excelled in states like UP, Bihar etc.
This lead of major castes people joining different parties as in Maratha state. From news in times of India many candidates were ready for any party if they get ticket. It appears that due to that Bjp lost upper caste character but became vehicle for lowermiddle caste aspirations and this has damaging effect as antiupper class combination under congress leadership collapsed for ever. This slow disintegrating fact and time will be required for four cycles ( 4X4=16, 4=no of elections and 4= time period of normal assembly time). Small castes got benefit as candidates from all parties ( with dominant caste membership) have to appease small castes if they want to get elected. So they have to look after these peoples interests. Dominence of one caste is had as like in Eastern Punjab ( India) Dalit are more marginalised than say in Bihar and tension is more higher amoung Jath Sikhs and other backward Sikh castes. So india case more number of castes is better than less.
In maratha state last time 156 maratha caste members in 288 numbers. This dominat caste is in trouble as backwards will not be too happy too long taking symbolic left overs. Its over long term loosing game for maratha caste people and only one has to see how gracefully they will accept demographic democratic outcome. In sense politics will become much like usa , both parties are same for majority. One thing for sure the close results shows long term democratic ethos increments and less marginalization of minor castes.
One can not say much uness one can give caste numbers of elected members and how dominant maratha caste did ( parties do not count). If the number is decreased then there that process has started if not its stalled but over long time they will go near demographic democratic averages -thanks to british system of democracy of direct presentation not republic style in as in us of america. If somebody from india throws light with numbers can help.
Harrymau Iyer suggest site about india music , its great thanks for that. ( much contribution by Parrakar), It helped me lost to understand theory of indian music to some extent. Then he gave comment by some won challenging god to show more than he has proposed. He was extraordinary person. I looked in number of notes available, combinations possible nCr, rejecting impossible sequense of nates understood by simple calculation the brilliance.
My general policy is not to criticize Kafirs ( nonmuslims). I do that I do not know much about kafirs and we have lots of problems ( you can name it) in Muslim Ummah. We should criticize ourself and refrain from criticizing Kafirs. They can manage their house we need to manage ours. Self criticism is useful other way is useless and illogical.
so in that tradition Mr. Iyer told us story of Civil engineer Hindu how could not name euation of caternary. ( Mr. Iyer , too much to ask for young man as engineers limit is sin and cosin but Cosh sinh is like amature facing Kumble in form on mat). We muslims also can match in that. When I was working in Hospatality business i had some times chance to ask questions to mechanical engineers . My favourite was as follows. `` I am not engineer but want know some little about engg. Tell me what are units of pressure ? Answer was pounds/sqare feet. What are units of height of water? answer was feet , very good. They I will ask tell me how pressure is meaured in height? NED grads as well as us trained engineers were at loss.( no affront to engineers)
Conclusions: we have sufficient educated fools. We do not have to say they are on otherside of border.
My feeling is both are right in some way. My favourite female relative in India married a maratha brahmin and then I started looking at newspapers and little drawing my own conclusions.
All India politics is caste calculus more and more. ( it may change with time as people become urbanised and vertical and horizontal integration taking placein castes due to illness of love, marriage and garbage valgur ( though have not seen any if correct- have not seen any movies in decades- physical ailments, some may think mental ailments) ). So getting victory is fine tuning this caste equations if flexible little stretching little here and there matching boundary conditions. Some places basic caste equations remain but boundary conditions are undefined are part of unknown where dramatic upsets can occur. It appears that Congress was at this game best for first forty years as it was nonidealogical and *oppositions was lost as they did not believe in caste centricness of elections (* that is political romanticism related to idealogy of left or right and religious leaning organizations) or were theoretical scientists trying for ideal solutions. My feeling is in this game parties can make recover small tactical mistakes but if they make stategis caste mistakes in selection they they have made blunders, wrong caste candidate will loose.
With time others learned to play same games. That had advantage in sense even small marginalised castes can demand attention. As all contenstants began to put demografic candidates it was hard for all. Before Congress had edge of putting caste candidates others followed same way and put Congress in congress and excelled in states like UP, Bihar etc.
This lead of major castes people joining different parties as in Maratha state. From news in times of India many candidates were ready for any party if they get ticket. It appears that due to that Bjp lost upper caste character but became vehicle for lowermiddle caste aspirations and this has damaging effect as antiupper class combination under congress leadership collapsed for ever. This slow disintegrating fact and time will be required for four cycles ( 4X4=16, 4=no of elections and 4= time period of normal assembly time). Small castes got benefit as candidates from all parties ( with dominant caste membership) have to appease small castes if they want to get elected. So they have to look after these peoples interests. Dominence of one caste is had as like in Eastern Punjab ( India) Dalit are more marginalised than say in Bihar and tension is more higher amoung Jath Sikhs and other backward Sikh castes. So india case more number of castes is better than less.
In maratha state last time 156 maratha caste members in 288 numbers. This dominat caste is in trouble as backwards will not be too happy too long taking symbolic left overs. Its over long term loosing game for maratha caste people and only one has to see how gracefully they will accept demographic democratic outcome. In sense politics will become much like usa , both parties are same for majority. One thing for sure the close results shows long term democratic ethos increments and less marginalization of minor castes.
One can not say much uness one can give caste numbers of elected members and how dominant maratha caste did ( parties do not count). If the number is decreased then there that process has started if not its stalled but over long time they will go near demographic democratic averages -thanks to british system of democracy of direct presentation not republic style in as in us of america. If somebody from india throws light with numbers can help.
Harrymau Iyer suggest site about india music , its great thanks for that. ( much contribution by Parrakar), It helped me lost to understand theory of indian music to some extent. Then he gave comment by some won challenging god to show more than he has proposed. He was extraordinary person. I looked in number of notes available, combinations possible nCr, rejecting impossible sequense of nates understood by simple calculation the brilliance.
My general policy is not to criticize Kafirs ( nonmuslims). I do that I do not know much about kafirs and we have lots of problems ( you can name it) in Muslim Ummah. We should criticize ourself and refrain from criticizing Kafirs. They can manage their house we need to manage ours. Self criticism is useful other way is useless and illogical.
so in that tradition Mr. Iyer told us story of Civil engineer Hindu how could not name euation of caternary. ( Mr. Iyer , too much to ask for young man as engineers limit is sin and cosin but Cosh sinh is like amature facing Kumble in form on mat). We muslims also can match in that. When I was working in Hospatality business i had some times chance to ask questions to mechanical engineers . My favourite was as follows. `` I am not engineer but want know some little about engg. Tell me what are units of pressure ? Answer was pounds/sqare feet. What are units of height of water? answer was feet , very good. They I will ask tell me how pressure is meaured in height? NED grads as well as us trained engineers were at loss.( no affront to engineers)
Conclusions: we have sufficient educated fools. We do not have to say they are on otherside of border.
#20 Posted by harimau on October 17, 2004 5:23:43 pm
Ref dost-mittar #14
[harimou:
Statistics notwithstanding, this has to be treated as a big defeat for the BJP-Sena combine. With the NCP-Congress govt.`s dismal performance and the huge dissatisfaction of the people with it, the election should have been a walk-in for the opposition. So, this election should be considered more as a vote against the BJP-Sena than a vote for the govt.
And you could be a bit more generous towards Sonia. Though no tigress, she certainly seems to have developed a halo around her since her `raajya-tyaag` and handing over the `kharhaaon` to Manmohan Singh. I cant help thinking how her name would almost certainly have been in mud if she had chosen to be the PM herself. Reunciation pays in the `hindooland`.]
Didn`t pay in her supposed home state of UP where the Congress did not win one lousy seat out of 12 contested.
All polls suggested a hung assembly, not a victory for Shiv Sena. Enough rebels from Shiv Sena, BJP, Congress, NCP stood for election as Independents to split the vote. Cong-NCP combine just squeaked in with 143 out of 288 seats. They have one Independent supporting them. Who sre they going to elect Speaker of the Assembly - a Shiv Sena man so that they could retain a one-vote majority or one of their own?
I don`t intend to be any more generous to Sonia. She is already living rent-free, doesn`t pay any telephone bills, sitting on the Rs. 1,000 crore Indira Gandhi Foundation for Blah Blah Blah, has her retarded son AND daughter in the running for Prime Ministership in the future, etc., etc., etc. Enough is enough.
[harimou:
Statistics notwithstanding, this has to be treated as a big defeat for the BJP-Sena combine. With the NCP-Congress govt.`s dismal performance and the huge dissatisfaction of the people with it, the election should have been a walk-in for the opposition. So, this election should be considered more as a vote against the BJP-Sena than a vote for the govt.
And you could be a bit more generous towards Sonia. Though no tigress, she certainly seems to have developed a halo around her since her `raajya-tyaag` and handing over the `kharhaaon` to Manmohan Singh. I cant help thinking how her name would almost certainly have been in mud if she had chosen to be the PM herself. Reunciation pays in the `hindooland`.]
Didn`t pay in her supposed home state of UP where the Congress did not win one lousy seat out of 12 contested.
All polls suggested a hung assembly, not a victory for Shiv Sena. Enough rebels from Shiv Sena, BJP, Congress, NCP stood for election as Independents to split the vote. Cong-NCP combine just squeaked in with 143 out of 288 seats. They have one Independent supporting them. Who sre they going to elect Speaker of the Assembly - a Shiv Sena man so that they could retain a one-vote majority or one of their own?
I don`t intend to be any more generous to Sonia. She is already living rent-free, doesn`t pay any telephone bills, sitting on the Rs. 1,000 crore Indira Gandhi Foundation for Blah Blah Blah, has her retarded son AND daughter in the running for Prime Ministership in the future, etc., etc., etc. Enough is enough.
#21 Posted by nasah on October 17, 2004 7:08:34 pm
The Divided and Defeated BJP Should Expect More Shocks.
By Tushar-Tukoji
NEW DELHI, October 18: The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) probably got over the shock of its electoral defeat in Maharashtra by the evening of October 16, but more shocks appear to be in store for the party in the next two years.
First it would be Bihar, then Jharkhand and Haryana, and then West Bengal and Kerala when these states elect their assemblies.
If the BJP could not do well in its safest state, Maharashtra, it has little or no chance of doing any better in the other five, especially the last two where the BJP has never been a force.
By most reckoning, the Congress-NCP government in Maharashtra had faced the polls with a great deal of trepidation, what with problems ranging from farmers’ suicide to messy finances and drought. The Democratic Front government in the state, said many poll pundits, had little chance of retaining power. Some even went to the extent of saying that the Maharashtra polls would mark the beginning of the end of the Congress in the state as well its rule at the center.
But what happened, instead, was that in Maharashtra the BJP and its regional twin, the Shiv Sena, have lost many ‘bastions’ to the ‘pseudo-secular’ forces and the leaderships of both the BJP and the Shiv Sena face a scale of rebellion that may soon result in splits in their respective parties.
Should that happen, rebuilding a strong support base would be quite difficult because the ‘saffron’ brigade’s hold in the urban middle class Maharashtrians has also slipped.
The Shiv Sena started as a ‘Hindu’ party with a very narrow aim of ‘protecting’ Mumbai (then Bombay) from non-Maharashtrians and minorities. It later spread to the rest of the state to acquire the tones of a regional party.
But the just concluded assembly polls show that the Shiv Sena support has shrunk considerably and the party does not know whether to project itself as a regional party serving narrow chauvinistic ends or an exclusive and stronger Hindutva force.
The roar of the once unchallenged ‘tiger’ of Shiv Sena and its supremo, Bal Thakeray, has become so feeble that even his own family members do not seem to be scared of it.
The aftermath of Maharashtra looks terrible from the BJP perspective. It has set off both an identity and a leadership crisis in this self-styled ‘party of governance’, also known as ‘the party with a difference’ which is veering towards ‘party with differences’.
Since its ‘unexpected’ defeat in the Lok Sabha polls this past summer, the BJP has adopted a welter of tactics to win back the voters. It began with disrupting parliament, session by session, protesting against ‘tainted ministers’.
This is an issue, which should have won the party wide support and caused endless troubles to the newly installed UPA government. But the public reaction was one of dismay with the BJP for showing callous disregard to parliament.
The more keen watchers of the political scene also noticed that the tainted ministers’ issue smacked of hypocrisy by the BJP since it had never shown the slightest hesitation in hugging ‘tainted’ men and women.
Even when it became as clear as daylight, the BJP continued to flog the ‘foreign origin’ issue and heap abuses on the Congress president, Sonia Gandhi, who had, in fact, enhanced her stature in the public eye after the Lok Sabha poll by an act of unparalleled ‘sacrifice’ in Indian politics — turning down the opportunity to sit in the country’s most important chair.
What the BJP refused to see was that the insults it kept heaping on Sonia Gandhi were taken as signs of vulgarity by the masses who had for whatever reason reposed their faith in her.
She might not be accepted as a great figure in Indian politics but the kind of following that she has in the country does not permit of indecent personal attacks on her………
A ‘national’ level political party has to win over voters with positive messages of plausible content. Spewing vitriol in public is against ‘Indian culture’, something that the BJP allegedly espouses.
By Tushar-Tukoji
NEW DELHI, October 18: The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) probably got over the shock of its electoral defeat in Maharashtra by the evening of October 16, but more shocks appear to be in store for the party in the next two years.
First it would be Bihar, then Jharkhand and Haryana, and then West Bengal and Kerala when these states elect their assemblies.
If the BJP could not do well in its safest state, Maharashtra, it has little or no chance of doing any better in the other five, especially the last two where the BJP has never been a force.
By most reckoning, the Congress-NCP government in Maharashtra had faced the polls with a great deal of trepidation, what with problems ranging from farmers’ suicide to messy finances and drought. The Democratic Front government in the state, said many poll pundits, had little chance of retaining power. Some even went to the extent of saying that the Maharashtra polls would mark the beginning of the end of the Congress in the state as well its rule at the center.
But what happened, instead, was that in Maharashtra the BJP and its regional twin, the Shiv Sena, have lost many ‘bastions’ to the ‘pseudo-secular’ forces and the leaderships of both the BJP and the Shiv Sena face a scale of rebellion that may soon result in splits in their respective parties.
Should that happen, rebuilding a strong support base would be quite difficult because the ‘saffron’ brigade’s hold in the urban middle class Maharashtrians has also slipped.
The Shiv Sena started as a ‘Hindu’ party with a very narrow aim of ‘protecting’ Mumbai (then Bombay) from non-Maharashtrians and minorities. It later spread to the rest of the state to acquire the tones of a regional party.
But the just concluded assembly polls show that the Shiv Sena support has shrunk considerably and the party does not know whether to project itself as a regional party serving narrow chauvinistic ends or an exclusive and stronger Hindutva force.
The roar of the once unchallenged ‘tiger’ of Shiv Sena and its supremo, Bal Thakeray, has become so feeble that even his own family members do not seem to be scared of it.
The aftermath of Maharashtra looks terrible from the BJP perspective. It has set off both an identity and a leadership crisis in this self-styled ‘party of governance’, also known as ‘the party with a difference’ which is veering towards ‘party with differences’.
Since its ‘unexpected’ defeat in the Lok Sabha polls this past summer, the BJP has adopted a welter of tactics to win back the voters. It began with disrupting parliament, session by session, protesting against ‘tainted ministers’.
This is an issue, which should have won the party wide support and caused endless troubles to the newly installed UPA government. But the public reaction was one of dismay with the BJP for showing callous disregard to parliament.
The more keen watchers of the political scene also noticed that the tainted ministers’ issue smacked of hypocrisy by the BJP since it had never shown the slightest hesitation in hugging ‘tainted’ men and women.
Even when it became as clear as daylight, the BJP continued to flog the ‘foreign origin’ issue and heap abuses on the Congress president, Sonia Gandhi, who had, in fact, enhanced her stature in the public eye after the Lok Sabha poll by an act of unparalleled ‘sacrifice’ in Indian politics — turning down the opportunity to sit in the country’s most important chair.
What the BJP refused to see was that the insults it kept heaping on Sonia Gandhi were taken as signs of vulgarity by the masses who had for whatever reason reposed their faith in her.
She might not be accepted as a great figure in Indian politics but the kind of following that she has in the country does not permit of indecent personal attacks on her………
A ‘national’ level political party has to win over voters with positive messages of plausible content. Spewing vitriol in public is against ‘Indian culture’, something that the BJP allegedly espouses.
#22 Posted by mohar11 on October 17, 2004 7:08:34 pm
veeresh
//... why me? ..//
Well - then who else? You went to pakistan and refused to sing the ``love`` song - remember?? You looked under wrong stones, my friend. So now you are tagged for life - learn to live with it :)))
//... why me? ..//
Well - then who else? You went to pakistan and refused to sing the ``love`` song - remember?? You looked under wrong stones, my friend. So now you are tagged for life - learn to live with it :)))
#23 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on October 17, 2004 11:08:19 pm
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#24 Posted by harish_hyd on October 18, 2004 6:03:57 am
#7 by Mantolives
[Ofcourse to Veeresh who is blinded by delusions of greatness , your logic will not make any sense.]
Just as you are blinded by delusions of the greatness of that TNTist Jinnah? Well, well, we are all blind some way or the other. Just that we refuse to acknowledge our blindness.
[Ofcourse to Veeresh who is blinded by delusions of greatness , your logic will not make any sense.]
Just as you are blinded by delusions of the greatness of that TNTist Jinnah? Well, well, we are all blind some way or the other. Just that we refuse to acknowledge our blindness.
#25 Posted by saint on October 18, 2004 6:03:57 am
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#26 Posted by mumbaikar on October 18, 2004 7:49:13 am
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#27 Posted by mumbaikar on October 18, 2004 7:49:13 am
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#28 Posted by arjun_m on October 18, 2004 7:49:14 am
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#29 Posted by jang on October 18, 2004 11:04:06 am
this gottobe good news for the ghatis. they will have pawar the strong-man sitting in centre and being remote control for the state. he is bound to bring-in much development moolah for the state. bal thakre is jumping mad and has already blamed muslims and backward castes. his ``khokha`` calculation went wrong. he sold tickets to some of the shivsena safe seats for large khokhas, thinking he will need that in post-election horse-trading. but now out of power, he does not need the money, so at least he is fiscally shrewd. considering anti-incumbancy wave, this is indeed a big win for congress/ncp no matter what the popular vote says.
#30 Posted by mohar11 on October 18, 2004 11:04:06 am
How that other democracy differs? Well - more I see of american democracy, the more it resembles (to me) the cr@p we call democracy in India. Actually in some ways the Indian affairs looks better than what I see in US these days.
I mean - irregularities in voter registration, non-standard voting methods, vote fraud, voter intimidation - these are supposed to be stuff right out of Indian elections, right?? But now we see it all right here in US - the greatest democracy on the face of the planet!!! What`s up with the hundred different methods of voting - can`t americans all have same type of voting machines - like they do in India??
And then what`s up with this media partisanship? Sinclair running anti-kerry films all over the place? I mean why should it matter to sinclair if bush wins or kerry wins? And then we have Michel moore trying to run his anti-bush sh!t on pay-for-view and geting turned down by the TV stations??? ....... Indian media is probably the cr@ppiest in entire democratic world - but I haven`t seen this level of partisanship there.....and Indians fight bitter elections all the time.
The most bizzare of all is this : any country who has gone through the most horrible terrorist attack in human history would actually strive to bury the hatchets and band together and take on the enemy with a single-mided focus. One would certainly expect the Americans to do so. One would expect americans to show the rest of the world (as they do many other aspects of life ) how to rise to the occassion and how to handle things in the best possible manner. One thing we all expect from americans is that when the crunch comes, these folks stand up and do the right thing.
But what we see these days is completely out of whack. The level of partisanship is unprecedented. The quality of politics is at the lowest level. Catholics have declared that vote for Kerry is a ``sin``!! All sorts of religious dogma is on the rise. Cheney says vote for kerry is a vote for terrorists!! Democrats bleating that Cheney`s daughter is gay!!
And in the mean time - everybody have forgotten the fact the real enemy is still living in suburbs of Karachi, planing his next big attack. Ameicans have completely lost their balance, to say the least. For 50% of them Kerry is the enemy, for other 50% it`s bush. The fact is - it`s neither of these two. It`s Osama bin Laden and his band and they are still alive!! But nobody seem to care!!
I mean - fractitious and bitterly divided that the Indians are - even they don`t stoop to this level of partisanship when the crunch comes. Remember Kargil? The way the entire nation stood together to fight the paki terrorists!!
So what`s going on here?
I mean - irregularities in voter registration, non-standard voting methods, vote fraud, voter intimidation - these are supposed to be stuff right out of Indian elections, right?? But now we see it all right here in US - the greatest democracy on the face of the planet!!! What`s up with the hundred different methods of voting - can`t americans all have same type of voting machines - like they do in India??
And then what`s up with this media partisanship? Sinclair running anti-kerry films all over the place? I mean why should it matter to sinclair if bush wins or kerry wins? And then we have Michel moore trying to run his anti-bush sh!t on pay-for-view and geting turned down by the TV stations??? ....... Indian media is probably the cr@ppiest in entire democratic world - but I haven`t seen this level of partisanship there.....and Indians fight bitter elections all the time.
The most bizzare of all is this : any country who has gone through the most horrible terrorist attack in human history would actually strive to bury the hatchets and band together and take on the enemy with a single-mided focus. One would certainly expect the Americans to do so. One would expect americans to show the rest of the world (as they do many other aspects of life ) how to rise to the occassion and how to handle things in the best possible manner. One thing we all expect from americans is that when the crunch comes, these folks stand up and do the right thing.
But what we see these days is completely out of whack. The level of partisanship is unprecedented. The quality of politics is at the lowest level. Catholics have declared that vote for Kerry is a ``sin``!! All sorts of religious dogma is on the rise. Cheney says vote for kerry is a vote for terrorists!! Democrats bleating that Cheney`s daughter is gay!!
And in the mean time - everybody have forgotten the fact the real enemy is still living in suburbs of Karachi, planing his next big attack. Ameicans have completely lost their balance, to say the least. For 50% of them Kerry is the enemy, for other 50% it`s bush. The fact is - it`s neither of these two. It`s Osama bin Laden and his band and they are still alive!! But nobody seem to care!!
I mean - fractitious and bitterly divided that the Indians are - even they don`t stoop to this level of partisanship when the crunch comes. Remember Kargil? The way the entire nation stood together to fight the paki terrorists!!
So what`s going on here?
#31 Posted by nikki7777 on October 18, 2004 11:04:07 am
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#32 Posted by arjun_m on October 18, 2004 12:35:09 pm
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#33 Posted by harimau on October 18, 2004 10:30:25 pm
Ref mumbaikar #26
You quoted
[Making sense of Maharashtra election —V Krishna Ananth
......The task ahead is, however, not as simple as what has been accomplished. It is imperative for the Congress and the NCP leaders to consolidate upon this victory and commit themselves to this tradition — of social transformation and cooperatives — rather than persist with the attitude during the recent years when they allowed these institutions to sink. If the institutions sink any further their own parties will be decimated in Maharashtra. The Maharashtra experience can also help the Congress reinvent itself elsewhere.
VK Ananth, a former affiliate of The Hindu, is now a freelance writer]
Social transformation and cooperatives means that the government will buy khadi (handwoven) garments that has no market because Mahatma Gandhi wanted us to wear khadi. That means subsidizing dinosaurs who need to die out and would have no chance of survival against modern mills. Gandhi was against the dumping of cloth made in the mills of Lancashire. Right now, the mills in Lancashire have been shuttered and a few function as museums. But does anybody care to think through the consequences of subsidizing dinosaurs? No. The foremost among these are articulate idiots who write for ``The Anti-Hindu`` or ``The Times of India`` and newspapers like that quoting Gandhi and ``Gram (village) Raj``.
Manmohan Singh the Neutered has promised to turn Bombay in to Shanghai. Ha, ha, ha. In Shanghai, the Chinese cleared out the slums with 3 days` notice and no compensation. In Bombay, the Mee Mumbaikar group is demanding title for the slums that they occupy illegally on government land. They will get it; if they don`t, they will at least be allowed to remain unmolested for the next 10,000 years until Bombay chokes on its own garbage. I had to run away from that city after 3 days; I was getting sick.
Shanghai? They would be turning Bombay into Laloo Prsad Yadav`s version of some small village in Bihar. The other city builders who have reduced Calcutta to the world`s largest garbage dump, namely, the CPI(M), will happily assist.
You quoted
[Making sense of Maharashtra election —V Krishna Ananth
......The task ahead is, however, not as simple as what has been accomplished. It is imperative for the Congress and the NCP leaders to consolidate upon this victory and commit themselves to this tradition — of social transformation and cooperatives — rather than persist with the attitude during the recent years when they allowed these institutions to sink. If the institutions sink any further their own parties will be decimated in Maharashtra. The Maharashtra experience can also help the Congress reinvent itself elsewhere.
VK Ananth, a former affiliate of The Hindu, is now a freelance writer]
Social transformation and cooperatives means that the government will buy khadi (handwoven) garments that has no market because Mahatma Gandhi wanted us to wear khadi. That means subsidizing dinosaurs who need to die out and would have no chance of survival against modern mills. Gandhi was against the dumping of cloth made in the mills of Lancashire. Right now, the mills in Lancashire have been shuttered and a few function as museums. But does anybody care to think through the consequences of subsidizing dinosaurs? No. The foremost among these are articulate idiots who write for ``The Anti-Hindu`` or ``The Times of India`` and newspapers like that quoting Gandhi and ``Gram (village) Raj``.
Manmohan Singh the Neutered has promised to turn Bombay in to Shanghai. Ha, ha, ha. In Shanghai, the Chinese cleared out the slums with 3 days` notice and no compensation. In Bombay, the Mee Mumbaikar group is demanding title for the slums that they occupy illegally on government land. They will get it; if they don`t, they will at least be allowed to remain unmolested for the next 10,000 years until Bombay chokes on its own garbage. I had to run away from that city after 3 days; I was getting sick.
Shanghai? They would be turning Bombay into Laloo Prsad Yadav`s version of some small village in Bihar. The other city builders who have reduced Calcutta to the world`s largest garbage dump, namely, the CPI(M), will happily assist.
#34 Posted by harimau on October 18, 2004 10:30:25 pm
To add to my previous post, any politician advocating free electricity for anybody should be given a jolt of free electricity at 22,000 volts.
#35 Posted by harimau on October 18, 2004 10:30:25 pm
#32 by arjun_m #32
[Another good thing about the sena`s loss is that it will bring out into the open, the infighting between Raj and Uddhav...blood should flow on the streets outside matoshree...they`re both goondas..]
But even before that Pawar and Sonia are fighting it out for which party will get the CM`s job. Sonia claims that with the support of CPI(M) and Independents, she has 74 seats and so the larger number of members in the Assembly. Of course Pawar`s NCP has more seats than Sonia`s Congress and he is asking for the CM`s job for his own party. What is going to happen, no matter who gets the CM`s job, is that the CPI(M) with 3 (yes, that is THREE) seats will have the government by the ba!!s and will squeeze hard. Just like they did in the Planning Commission fiasco.
What we need is to ban anti-National parties such as the Congress, the CPI(M), etc., for the next 100 years if you want India to advance. And immediately abolish quotas for OBCs, BCs, SC/ST.... they take away any chance for merit to be considered in selection of people for jobs. With the result that air force fighters costing $50-$100 million apiece are falling out of the sky because of poor maintenance.
[Another good thing about the sena`s loss is that it will bring out into the open, the infighting between Raj and Uddhav...blood should flow on the streets outside matoshree...they`re both goondas..]
But even before that Pawar and Sonia are fighting it out for which party will get the CM`s job. Sonia claims that with the support of CPI(M) and Independents, she has 74 seats and so the larger number of members in the Assembly. Of course Pawar`s NCP has more seats than Sonia`s Congress and he is asking for the CM`s job for his own party. What is going to happen, no matter who gets the CM`s job, is that the CPI(M) with 3 (yes, that is THREE) seats will have the government by the ba!!s and will squeeze hard. Just like they did in the Planning Commission fiasco.
What we need is to ban anti-National parties such as the Congress, the CPI(M), etc., for the next 100 years if you want India to advance. And immediately abolish quotas for OBCs, BCs, SC/ST.... they take away any chance for merit to be considered in selection of people for jobs. With the result that air force fighters costing $50-$100 million apiece are falling out of the sky because of poor maintenance.
#36 Posted by nasah on October 18, 2004 10:30:25 pm
``The lower caste hindus and muslims together constitute 65% of the electorate in any Indian state.``
``hindus and muslims together`` -- what a delicious syrupy phrase indeed -- read it after a long long time -- good to know that they are still together -- thank you saint baba -- God bless you...u r indeed a Saint.......:-)
``hindus and muslims together`` -- what a delicious syrupy phrase indeed -- read it after a long long time -- good to know that they are still together -- thank you saint baba -- God bless you...u r indeed a Saint.......:-)
#37 Posted by saint on October 19, 2004 7:44:01 am
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#38 Posted by jang on October 19, 2004 8:06:18 am
harimau various
i think sonia-pawar duking it out is normal politics as it should be. udhav-raj thakre stuff is pure mughal .. considering shivsena makes a big deal of gandhi-family hereditary gaddi it gets really rich.
you got to give some credit so the ghati politicians (and all the congress and ncp are mostly upper-cast marathas), they have been pretty good over last 40 yrs in comparison to other states in one single indicator (besides gdp-fdi-literacy and all other crap stats). you will rarely see a ghati slumming it out in other states. only ghatis in other states are babus in employ of previous princely outfits such as hydrabad nizam, arcot guy, scindias and holkars and gaikawad principalities etc. so, that means all the maratha politicians were more or less able to find gainful employment to their constituents, who share the barren deccan plateu with andhras and tamils and kannadas. go to any construction site, and you see telanganas slumming-it. tamil brahmins slum it in every govt colony anywhere in india. mallu nurses and typist stink-up offices from abudhabi to ahmedabad with coconut oil and then there are the bhaiyyas and bengalis..
ghatis seem plain happy to do their amature plays, keep bothering FV with supersize ganapatis, and play carrom and bridge in their own homeland.
i think sonia-pawar duking it out is normal politics as it should be. udhav-raj thakre stuff is pure mughal .. considering shivsena makes a big deal of gandhi-family hereditary gaddi it gets really rich.
you got to give some credit so the ghati politicians (and all the congress and ncp are mostly upper-cast marathas), they have been pretty good over last 40 yrs in comparison to other states in one single indicator (besides gdp-fdi-literacy and all other crap stats). you will rarely see a ghati slumming it out in other states. only ghatis in other states are babus in employ of previous princely outfits such as hydrabad nizam, arcot guy, scindias and holkars and gaikawad principalities etc. so, that means all the maratha politicians were more or less able to find gainful employment to their constituents, who share the barren deccan plateu with andhras and tamils and kannadas. go to any construction site, and you see telanganas slumming-it. tamil brahmins slum it in every govt colony anywhere in india. mallu nurses and typist stink-up offices from abudhabi to ahmedabad with coconut oil and then there are the bhaiyyas and bengalis..
ghatis seem plain happy to do their amature plays, keep bothering FV with supersize ganapatis, and play carrom and bridge in their own homeland.
#39 Posted by Urstruly on October 19, 2004 9:59:34 am
My deepest condolences to my Indian brothers for the great loss of their beloved Robin Hood aka Veerapan shaheed. May his soul rest in peace and may Almight give you patience and guide you thru this time of test.
#40 Posted by kaurasach on October 19, 2004 10:15:07 am
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#41 Posted by harimau on October 19, 2004 5:11:12 pm
Ref jang #38
[you got to give some credit so the ghati politicians (and all the congress and ncp are mostly upper-cast marathas), they have been pretty good over last 40 yrs in comparison to other states in one single indicator (besides gdp-fdi-literacy and all other crap stats). you will rarely see a ghati slumming it out in other states. only ghatis in other states are babus in employ of previous princely outfits such as hydrabad nizam, arcot guy, scindias and holkars and gaikawad principalities etc. so, that means all the maratha politicians were more or less able to find gainful employment to their constituents, who share the barren deccan plateu with andhras and tamils and kannadas. go to any construction site, and you see telanganas slumming-it. tamil brahmins slum it in every govt colony anywhere in india. mallu nurses and typist stink-up offices from abudhabi to ahmedabad with coconut oil and then there are the bhaiyyas and bengalis..]
Well, don`t give too much credit to the ghati politicians for this. It is just that the ghati naturally doesn`t want to leave his home state because he may actually have to learn another language. I personally know of a ghati MTech from IIT-Bombay who ``returned home`` to Pune after one-and-a-half years in Ahmedabad, Gujarat! No, not after the recent riots but 25 years ago!
On the other hand, the politicians of Maharashtra have managed to empty the coffers of the state and plunge the state into debt. They also have the fiasco of Dabhol to be proud of.
While the other states export their surplus labor, we in Tamil Nadu import surplus politicians from other states. We have had a Malayali as our Chief Minister (MGR) and currently have a Kannadiga (Jayalalitha) as one. We of course have had Telugu-speaking chief ministers too. All of these folks represent themselves as the ``true representatives`` of Tamil heritage and the Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu actually believe them. The current entrant into the race is the actor (can the word be used to describe his on-screen activities?) Rajnikanth, who used to be a bus conductor in Karnataka and whose last name is Gaikwad. His competitor is another actor named Vijaykanth who is a Gounder (the Gowda of Karnataka) by caste. Which means that we may soon have two Kannadigas duking it out for chief ministership in Tamil Nadu both claiming to be the real Tamilian. That perhaps explains why the only sensible people in Tamil Nadu, the Tamil Brahmins, have been leaving the state in droves. Only the crazy survive in a madhouse.
By the way, we have had ghatis in Tamil Nadu for close to four centuries. Shivaji`s brother`s sons moved south, captured the throne of Tanjore and were ruling there till they were deposed by the British. So not only were ghatis babus, they were also kings.
[ghatis seem plain happy to do their amature plays, keep bothering FV with supersize ganapatis, and play carrom and bridge in their own homeland.]
The playhouses in Bombay do a terrific job. FV is reconciled to the fact that she will have to live with the elephant-faced god all her life. On another board, someone described Allah as not being like humans, etc., etc., etc. I think Ganesh fits the bill of description of Allah to a T. Once Muslims see how non-human-like Ganesh`s head is, they may understand that this is indeed what the Koran has been attempting to describe as Allah and we will all have peace in South Asia. Any effort by the ghatis to spread the cult of Ganesh is therefore to be welcomed.
Ghatis are also hardworking. Unlike that poisonous group called Bongs who ought to be bombed back to the Stone Age or handed over to Bangladesh to form Greater Bangistan which will take them back to the Stone Age too but unfortunately with far less bloodshed.
[you got to give some credit so the ghati politicians (and all the congress and ncp are mostly upper-cast marathas), they have been pretty good over last 40 yrs in comparison to other states in one single indicator (besides gdp-fdi-literacy and all other crap stats). you will rarely see a ghati slumming it out in other states. only ghatis in other states are babus in employ of previous princely outfits such as hydrabad nizam, arcot guy, scindias and holkars and gaikawad principalities etc. so, that means all the maratha politicians were more or less able to find gainful employment to their constituents, who share the barren deccan plateu with andhras and tamils and kannadas. go to any construction site, and you see telanganas slumming-it. tamil brahmins slum it in every govt colony anywhere in india. mallu nurses and typist stink-up offices from abudhabi to ahmedabad with coconut oil and then there are the bhaiyyas and bengalis..]
Well, don`t give too much credit to the ghati politicians for this. It is just that the ghati naturally doesn`t want to leave his home state because he may actually have to learn another language. I personally know of a ghati MTech from IIT-Bombay who ``returned home`` to Pune after one-and-a-half years in Ahmedabad, Gujarat! No, not after the recent riots but 25 years ago!
On the other hand, the politicians of Maharashtra have managed to empty the coffers of the state and plunge the state into debt. They also have the fiasco of Dabhol to be proud of.
While the other states export their surplus labor, we in Tamil Nadu import surplus politicians from other states. We have had a Malayali as our Chief Minister (MGR) and currently have a Kannadiga (Jayalalitha) as one. We of course have had Telugu-speaking chief ministers too. All of these folks represent themselves as the ``true representatives`` of Tamil heritage and the Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu actually believe them. The current entrant into the race is the actor (can the word be used to describe his on-screen activities?) Rajnikanth, who used to be a bus conductor in Karnataka and whose last name is Gaikwad. His competitor is another actor named Vijaykanth who is a Gounder (the Gowda of Karnataka) by caste. Which means that we may soon have two Kannadigas duking it out for chief ministership in Tamil Nadu both claiming to be the real Tamilian. That perhaps explains why the only sensible people in Tamil Nadu, the Tamil Brahmins, have been leaving the state in droves. Only the crazy survive in a madhouse.
By the way, we have had ghatis in Tamil Nadu for close to four centuries. Shivaji`s brother`s sons moved south, captured the throne of Tanjore and were ruling there till they were deposed by the British. So not only were ghatis babus, they were also kings.
[ghatis seem plain happy to do their amature plays, keep bothering FV with supersize ganapatis, and play carrom and bridge in their own homeland.]
The playhouses in Bombay do a terrific job. FV is reconciled to the fact that she will have to live with the elephant-faced god all her life. On another board, someone described Allah as not being like humans, etc., etc., etc. I think Ganesh fits the bill of description of Allah to a T. Once Muslims see how non-human-like Ganesh`s head is, they may understand that this is indeed what the Koran has been attempting to describe as Allah and we will all have peace in South Asia. Any effort by the ghatis to spread the cult of Ganesh is therefore to be welcomed.
Ghatis are also hardworking. Unlike that poisonous group called Bongs who ought to be bombed back to the Stone Age or handed over to Bangladesh to form Greater Bangistan which will take them back to the Stone Age too but unfortunately with far less bloodshed.
#42 Posted by arjun_m on October 19, 2004 8:15:42 pm
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#43 Posted by dost_mittar on October 20, 2004 7:59:16 am
arjun_m:
``tendulkar, madhuri, nutan and tanuja....only thing redeeming ghatis... `
...but they haven`t left their mumbai, except maduhri who still has one leg in Mumbai. How about giving Arun Netravalli and Guru Deshpande, or even Rajnikant as examples?
harimou:
Should Rajnikant Gaikwad be considered a Kannadiga or a ghati?
``tendulkar, madhuri, nutan and tanuja....only thing redeeming ghatis... `
...but they haven`t left their mumbai, except maduhri who still has one leg in Mumbai. How about giving Arun Netravalli and Guru Deshpande, or even Rajnikant as examples?
harimou:
Should Rajnikant Gaikwad be considered a Kannadiga or a ghati?
#44 Posted by mumbaikar on October 20, 2004 10:02:20 am
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#45 Posted by harimau on October 20, 2004 10:02:20 am
Ref dost-mittar #43
[harimou:
Should Rajnikant Gaikwad be considered a Kannadiga or a ghati?]
His admirers have put up a website. Here is the URL
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/9480/rajni/
The biography states, ``Rajnikanth was born Shivaji Rao Gaekwad on December 12, 1949 in Karnataka.`` That name alone ought to make him a ghati except that he probably doesn`t even come from the border area of Belgaum but his family had moved farther South much earlier. So he speaks Kannada at home and doesn`t want to talk about his heritage too much, even though all that one needs in the Land of The Maasanamuthus for a political career is acting credits in several movies.
Can you send us a keshadhari Sikh please? We would happily elect him Chief Minister in Tamil Nadu. Do you think Daler Mehndi would be interested?
[harimou:
Should Rajnikant Gaikwad be considered a Kannadiga or a ghati?]
His admirers have put up a website. Here is the URL
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/9480/rajni/
The biography states, ``Rajnikanth was born Shivaji Rao Gaekwad on December 12, 1949 in Karnataka.`` That name alone ought to make him a ghati except that he probably doesn`t even come from the border area of Belgaum but his family had moved farther South much earlier. So he speaks Kannada at home and doesn`t want to talk about his heritage too much, even though all that one needs in the Land of The Maasanamuthus for a political career is acting credits in several movies.
Can you send us a keshadhari Sikh please? We would happily elect him Chief Minister in Tamil Nadu. Do you think Daler Mehndi would be interested?
#46 Posted by nikki7777 on October 20, 2004 10:02:20 am
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#47 Posted by Modern_Dharma on October 20, 2004 11:47:34 am
Yogiraj
I sympathize with your loss, and understand your rage. Nevertheless, with a little calm thinking, you could yourself see that your opinions in # 17 are plain shameful.
Many Sikhs too have major grievances with the Indian government. Yet, in their public lives, most of them have put that burden aside. Their pain has not disappeared. Only, they have decided to deal with it in the privacy of their hearts.
In our foolishness, we burnt ourselves once. In our anger, should we stoke the fire so we may be burnt completely? I hope you will take these words in the right spirit. I know, when one is very angry, the last thing one wants to hear is someone else moralize. But there is no other choice if we don`t want to further damage ourselves. Best regards.
I sympathize with your loss, and understand your rage. Nevertheless, with a little calm thinking, you could yourself see that your opinions in # 17 are plain shameful.
Many Sikhs too have major grievances with the Indian government. Yet, in their public lives, most of them have put that burden aside. Their pain has not disappeared. Only, they have decided to deal with it in the privacy of their hearts.
In our foolishness, we burnt ourselves once. In our anger, should we stoke the fire so we may be burnt completely? I hope you will take these words in the right spirit. I know, when one is very angry, the last thing one wants to hear is someone else moralize. But there is no other choice if we don`t want to further damage ourselves. Best regards.
#48 Posted by jang on October 20, 2004 12:34:12 pm
mumbaikar
maratha is a high caste, eqivalent of surajvanshi rajput and thakurs of up. it does not get a backward caste certificate. it is not a ``babu`` high caste like the kayasthas or brahmins. based on my knowledge there are some marathas more maratha than others, and belong to an original clan of 96 families, perhaps migrated from rajputana. they tend to marry in their own clan as is evident from matrimonials. perhaps there are some ``kurmi (peasant)`` marathas, kind of not belonging to the 96 clan, who may be more of OBCs.
sushilkumar shinde is a BC, Pramod Mahajan and Gopi Munde (BJP) are OBC and related by marriage, Bal Thakre is a Kayastha, pawars-deshmukhs are marathas and antuley is muslim. brahmins are mostly absent in politics, though congress did have a brahmin politician called vasant sathe (union minister) sometime back.
Desh Deshpande is kannadiga. Kulkarni and Deshpande are common brhmin names in border reagions. So, while Mamata Kulkarni is ghati, Desh is not.
love this caste stuff.
maratha is a high caste, eqivalent of surajvanshi rajput and thakurs of up. it does not get a backward caste certificate. it is not a ``babu`` high caste like the kayasthas or brahmins. based on my knowledge there are some marathas more maratha than others, and belong to an original clan of 96 families, perhaps migrated from rajputana. they tend to marry in their own clan as is evident from matrimonials. perhaps there are some ``kurmi (peasant)`` marathas, kind of not belonging to the 96 clan, who may be more of OBCs.
sushilkumar shinde is a BC, Pramod Mahajan and Gopi Munde (BJP) are OBC and related by marriage, Bal Thakre is a Kayastha, pawars-deshmukhs are marathas and antuley is muslim. brahmins are mostly absent in politics, though congress did have a brahmin politician called vasant sathe (union minister) sometime back.
Desh Deshpande is kannadiga. Kulkarni and Deshpande are common brhmin names in border reagions. So, while Mamata Kulkarni is ghati, Desh is not.
love this caste stuff.
#49 Posted by harimau on October 20, 2004 6:34:08 pm
Ref nikki7777 #44
[I`m mourning the death of Veerappan.He had balls.Plenty, for an Indian who usually walks around with only one.Pity.]
You are mourning the death of someone who killed about 120 persons (policemen, forestry officers, but primarily innocent villagers and tribals), who cut down the few remaining old-growth sandalwood trees and sold them to politician-crooks, and who killed wildlife such as elephants?
Pray tell us, whom else do you admire? The politicians who supported Veerappan? Those who helped him escape from jail in 1986 when he had been arrested by the Karnataka police?
Where does Veluppillai Prabhakaran of Sri Lanka stand in your estimation? How about Osama bin Laden?
[I`m mourning the death of Veerappan.He had balls.Plenty, for an Indian who usually walks around with only one.Pity.]
You are mourning the death of someone who killed about 120 persons (policemen, forestry officers, but primarily innocent villagers and tribals), who cut down the few remaining old-growth sandalwood trees and sold them to politician-crooks, and who killed wildlife such as elephants?
Pray tell us, whom else do you admire? The politicians who supported Veerappan? Those who helped him escape from jail in 1986 when he had been arrested by the Karnataka police?
Where does Veluppillai Prabhakaran of Sri Lanka stand in your estimation? How about Osama bin Laden?
#50 Posted by mumbaikar on October 20, 2004 6:34:09 pm
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#51 Posted by arjun_m on October 20, 2004 9:34:32 pm
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#52 Posted by dost_mittar on October 21, 2004 5:57:12 am
mumbaikar/jang:
Are you sure Mahajan is brahmin/obc? Mahajan in north india means a trader/bania and this is what the north indian mahajans are considered. And btw the bjp was for long considered to be a party of banias. I doubt also that chavan is a brahmin name; I thought that it was a maharashtrian version of chauhan, the famous rajput caste.
It is strange how the influence of brahmins in maharashtra has declined. There was a time that they led the nation - gokhale, tilak, savarkar, dange, etc. covered the entire spectrum of political thought from far right to far left. These days, they are influential only in classical music, which does not depend upon people`s votes.
Are you sure Mahajan is brahmin/obc? Mahajan in north india means a trader/bania and this is what the north indian mahajans are considered. And btw the bjp was for long considered to be a party of banias. I doubt also that chavan is a brahmin name; I thought that it was a maharashtrian version of chauhan, the famous rajput caste.
It is strange how the influence of brahmins in maharashtra has declined. There was a time that they led the nation - gokhale, tilak, savarkar, dange, etc. covered the entire spectrum of political thought from far right to far left. These days, they are influential only in classical music, which does not depend upon people`s votes.
#53 Posted by Layman on October 21, 2004 6:19:23 am
#45 harimau:
What do you say about Karnataka, where the Chief Minister, one Mr Dharam Singh, is a northie settled for a couple of generations in Karnataka.
One point I would like to highlight is the number of Christian chief ministers (current and ex) in states where they are a minority:
Kerala (A K Antony), Goa (several), Andhra Pradesh (Y Rajashekar Reddy), MP (Ajit Jogi), Orissa (Giridhar Gamang), not to mention Mizoram, Nagaland and some other North Eastern states where Christianity has become the majority religion. Also unconfirmed reports have it that former PM Rajiv Gandhi converted to Christianity... but with Raul and Bianca Gandhi, we will have a Christian PM for sure.
What do you say about Karnataka, where the Chief Minister, one Mr Dharam Singh, is a northie settled for a couple of generations in Karnataka.
One point I would like to highlight is the number of Christian chief ministers (current and ex) in states where they are a minority:
Kerala (A K Antony), Goa (several), Andhra Pradesh (Y Rajashekar Reddy), MP (Ajit Jogi), Orissa (Giridhar Gamang), not to mention Mizoram, Nagaland and some other North Eastern states where Christianity has become the majority religion. Also unconfirmed reports have it that former PM Rajiv Gandhi converted to Christianity... but with Raul and Bianca Gandhi, we will have a Christian PM for sure.
#54 Posted by Layman on October 21, 2004 6:19:23 am
jang #48:
``sushilkumar shinde is a BC,...``
You got this one wrong. Sushilkumar Shinde is a Dalit. After the recent Maharashtra elections, he was teary-eyed about how despite being a Dalit he was able to get elected for the fourth successive term from a general (not a reserved) constituency.
He is one of the few Dalits who became chief ministers.
``sushilkumar shinde is a BC,...``
You got this one wrong. Sushilkumar Shinde is a Dalit. After the recent Maharashtra elections, he was teary-eyed about how despite being a Dalit he was able to get elected for the fourth successive term from a general (not a reserved) constituency.
He is one of the few Dalits who became chief ministers.
#55 Posted by nikki7777 on October 21, 2004 8:03:34 am
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#56 Posted by harimau on October 21, 2004 9:22:29 am
[How that Other Democracy (India) Differs]
We buy our minority votes.
Today, ``The Anti-Hindu`` reported that -- not content with removing the restrictions that one must earn less income than would require one to pay income tax in India (meaning, one must be less than upwardly mobile) and that the Haj subsidy would be available only once in a lifetime to any person -- Manmohan Singh the Neutered has announced that 10,000 more Haj pilgrims have applied for and will be granted the subsidy. He also admitted that the vast majority would be travelling on Saudia, thus subsidizing a foreign airline.
Where are people like Master Tara Singh when we need them?
We buy our minority votes.
Today, ``The Anti-Hindu`` reported that -- not content with removing the restrictions that one must earn less income than would require one to pay income tax in India (meaning, one must be less than upwardly mobile) and that the Haj subsidy would be available only once in a lifetime to any person -- Manmohan Singh the Neutered has announced that 10,000 more Haj pilgrims have applied for and will be granted the subsidy. He also admitted that the vast majority would be travelling on Saudia, thus subsidizing a foreign airline.
Where are people like Master Tara Singh when we need them?
#57 Posted by nikki7777 on October 21, 2004 9:22:29 am
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#58 Posted by harimau on October 21, 2004 9:22:32 am
Ref nikki7777 #55
[#49 by harimau on October 20, 2004 6:34pm PT
STOP being such an old and frustrated `pappan`...... ]
You are wrong. I am delighted that Veerappan was killed under a brahmin chief minister. Nobody else would have the ba!!s, no matter what you say about the Maravans and Kallans.
[#49 by harimau on October 20, 2004 6:34pm PT
STOP being such an old and frustrated `pappan`...... ]
You are wrong. I am delighted that Veerappan was killed under a brahmin chief minister. Nobody else would have the ba!!s, no matter what you say about the Maravans and Kallans.
#59 Posted by harimau on October 21, 2004 9:22:32 am
Ref Layman #54
[#45 harimau:
What do you say about Karnataka, where the Chief Minister, one Mr Dharam Singh, is a northie settled for a couple of generations in Karnataka.
One point I would like to highlight is the number of Christian chief ministers (current and ex) in states where they are a minority:]
You are missing the point. In a country where the states are organized across linguistic boundaries, Tamil Nadu elects non-Tamil natives. No example you have given is similar.
[#45 harimau:
What do you say about Karnataka, where the Chief Minister, one Mr Dharam Singh, is a northie settled for a couple of generations in Karnataka.
One point I would like to highlight is the number of Christian chief ministers (current and ex) in states where they are a minority:]
You are missing the point. In a country where the states are organized across linguistic boundaries, Tamil Nadu elects non-Tamil natives. No example you have given is similar.
#60 Posted by jang on October 21, 2004 9:22:33 am
layman,
BC is just a govt designation of dalit (i believe he is a ``chamar`` caste). i know a lawyer who practiced in sholapur courts where shinde was a bailif.
Chavans are indeed Chauhans and very maratha.
Scindias are originally Shindes, and are marathas (although Sushilkumar is not, since many casts do share last names). M. Joshi is very much a brahmin and owned some kind of a techincal training institute which trained turners-fitters and lathe workers.
Mahajans are i believe untrained village priests (i.e. not studied the vedas-puranas-sanskrit etc. and are illiterate) for smaller deity temples, and also practice exorcism (like Ojhas)etc. There are Mahajans who are not OBC, but pramod is. BJP second tier leadership has a lot of OBCs, Uma Bharati, Narendra Modi, Gopinath Munde, Mahajan.
Bal Thakre is a CKP (which is Kyastha in north like our own Saxena) and they are traditionaly Scribes (hence have names like Chitnis meaning Secretary), and were big in civil services of the sundry nijams and maratha princes. However, Shivsena is not a caste organization and is full of agris, kolis, and many belonging to caste of Pathare (also known as Mumbaikar since they are the original landowners in mumbai) such as Navalkar, Parvatkar etc.
Sometimes Marathas are confused to be not high caste, becuase brahmins may refuse to eat from marathas, since marathas eat meat. Also, I am not sure if the Thread-Ceremony (initiation into studenthood) is practiced by Marathas of maharashtra. But according to Govt of india, they are high caste (not underprivilaged).
Brahmins of Maharastra lost their political clout after ``GandhiVadh``, as it was ascribed to brahmins since Godse was one; indeed many brahmin families in maharashtra faced rioting and persecution after gandhis death. Post indipendence politics has a long shadow of gandhi and his dhoti-tails were caught by smart politicians to gain in politics. Brahmins (esp Nagpur and Pune) were also big on the RSS which was more-or-less banned by Nehru. This may explain some reasons for lack of Brahmins in Politics in Maharashtra. Although, i dont agree that Brahmins were big in pre-independence politics in the same vein as Jinha, or Azad or Patel or Bose. They were mostly into social reforms such as widow-remarriage, womens education, land-reform (vinoba bhave) and writing (press) than fighting congress elections with Jinha.
BC is just a govt designation of dalit (i believe he is a ``chamar`` caste). i know a lawyer who practiced in sholapur courts where shinde was a bailif.
Chavans are indeed Chauhans and very maratha.
Scindias are originally Shindes, and are marathas (although Sushilkumar is not, since many casts do share last names). M. Joshi is very much a brahmin and owned some kind of a techincal training institute which trained turners-fitters and lathe workers.
Mahajans are i believe untrained village priests (i.e. not studied the vedas-puranas-sanskrit etc. and are illiterate) for smaller deity temples, and also practice exorcism (like Ojhas)etc. There are Mahajans who are not OBC, but pramod is. BJP second tier leadership has a lot of OBCs, Uma Bharati, Narendra Modi, Gopinath Munde, Mahajan.
Bal Thakre is a CKP (which is Kyastha in north like our own Saxena) and they are traditionaly Scribes (hence have names like Chitnis meaning Secretary), and were big in civil services of the sundry nijams and maratha princes. However, Shivsena is not a caste organization and is full of agris, kolis, and many belonging to caste of Pathare (also known as Mumbaikar since they are the original landowners in mumbai) such as Navalkar, Parvatkar etc.
Sometimes Marathas are confused to be not high caste, becuase brahmins may refuse to eat from marathas, since marathas eat meat. Also, I am not sure if the Thread-Ceremony (initiation into studenthood) is practiced by Marathas of maharashtra. But according to Govt of india, they are high caste (not underprivilaged).
Brahmins of Maharastra lost their political clout after ``GandhiVadh``, as it was ascribed to brahmins since Godse was one; indeed many brahmin families in maharashtra faced rioting and persecution after gandhis death. Post indipendence politics has a long shadow of gandhi and his dhoti-tails were caught by smart politicians to gain in politics. Brahmins (esp Nagpur and Pune) were also big on the RSS which was more-or-less banned by Nehru. This may explain some reasons for lack of Brahmins in Politics in Maharashtra. Although, i dont agree that Brahmins were big in pre-independence politics in the same vein as Jinha, or Azad or Patel or Bose. They were mostly into social reforms such as widow-remarriage, womens education, land-reform (vinoba bhave) and writing (press) than fighting congress elections with Jinha.
#61 Posted by nikki7777 on October 21, 2004 10:28:18 am
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#62 Posted by mohar11 on October 21, 2004 10:35:59 am
harimau
//.In a country where the states are organized across linguistic boundaries, Tamil Nadu elects non-Tamil natives...//
That`s no big deal. What amazes me is the fact that tamils who are so touchy about their language, almost worship these folks (MGR, Jaya, Rajnikanth, Khoosboo etc...) who are not even tamilians to start with. What gives?
//.In a country where the states are organized across linguistic boundaries, Tamil Nadu elects non-Tamil natives...//
That`s no big deal. What amazes me is the fact that tamils who are so touchy about their language, almost worship these folks (MGR, Jaya, Rajnikanth, Khoosboo etc...) who are not even tamilians to start with. What gives?
#63 Posted by nikki7777 on October 21, 2004 11:24:31 am
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#64 Posted by dost_mittar on October 21, 2004 2:50:09 pm
nikki7777:
Are you sure you are an ABCD? You are desi alright and might even be accepted as confused but it is hard to believe that you were born and brought up in America.
Are you sure you are an ABCD? You are desi alright and might even be accepted as confused but it is hard to believe that you were born and brought up in America.
#65 Posted by harimau on October 21, 2004 6:51:21 pm
Ref nikki7777 #63
[//.In a country where the states are organized across linguistic boundaries, Tamil Nadu elects non-Tamil natives...//
................Good question.I have thought about it myself.I guess these and other non-tamils who are born there or get a chance to live or work there end up becoming more `tamil` than the tamils and actually stick their necks out to do something for them.They do in fact also enrich themselves in the process but that`s quite fair too.It is fascinating to watch non-tamil tamilians actually fighting for the cause more than the natives.Even Periyar who started the dravidian movement is from karnataka and Karunanidhi roots are in the telugu speaking peoples.]
What cause? These are just thugs who just pick up an emotional issue. After telling people that Hindi is being imposed on Tamil Nadu and that he would resist it to death, Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion quietly enrolled his grand-nephew Dayanidhi Maran (30 years ago) in Hindi classes. When asked why he sent Dayanidhi to negotiate with Sonia Gandhi on the electoral alliance, he coolly replied that it is because Dayanidhi could converse with the Northerners in Hindi. After the elctions, Dayanidhi got the plum job in the cabinet.
The actor Vijaykanth asked one question: if all of these guys such the DMK, the PMK, the MDMK, the Congress, etc., were so concerned about the plight of the farmers of the Cauvery delta who were denied their riparian rights by Karnataka, why they did not demand the Water Resources Ministry instead of IT & Telecommunications, Surface Transport, Shipping, etc.?
The reply was swift: Vijaykanth`s latest movie was prevented from being screened by the thugs of PMK. The producer had to go begging to Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion.
[//.In a country where the states are organized across linguistic boundaries, Tamil Nadu elects non-Tamil natives...//
................Good question.I have thought about it myself.I guess these and other non-tamils who are born there or get a chance to live or work there end up becoming more `tamil` than the tamils and actually stick their necks out to do something for them.They do in fact also enrich themselves in the process but that`s quite fair too.It is fascinating to watch non-tamil tamilians actually fighting for the cause more than the natives.Even Periyar who started the dravidian movement is from karnataka and Karunanidhi roots are in the telugu speaking peoples.]
What cause? These are just thugs who just pick up an emotional issue. After telling people that Hindi is being imposed on Tamil Nadu and that he would resist it to death, Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion quietly enrolled his grand-nephew Dayanidhi Maran (30 years ago) in Hindi classes. When asked why he sent Dayanidhi to negotiate with Sonia Gandhi on the electoral alliance, he coolly replied that it is because Dayanidhi could converse with the Northerners in Hindi. After the elctions, Dayanidhi got the plum job in the cabinet.
The actor Vijaykanth asked one question: if all of these guys such the DMK, the PMK, the MDMK, the Congress, etc., were so concerned about the plight of the farmers of the Cauvery delta who were denied their riparian rights by Karnataka, why they did not demand the Water Resources Ministry instead of IT & Telecommunications, Surface Transport, Shipping, etc.?
The reply was swift: Vijaykanth`s latest movie was prevented from being screened by the thugs of PMK. The producer had to go begging to Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion.
#66 Posted by harimau on October 21, 2004 6:51:21 pm
Ref mohar11 #62
[harimau
//.In a country where the states are organized across linguistic boundaries, Tamil Nadu elects non-Tamil natives...//
That`s no big deal. What amazes me is the fact that tamils who are so touchy about their language, almost worship these folks (MGR, Jaya, Rajnikanth, Khoosboo etc...) who are not even tamilians to start with. What gives?]
It IS a big deal. Has a Tamil been elected even dogcatcher in Calcutta, Delhi, Lucknow, Bhopal or Jaipur? On the other hand the highest elected position in Tamil Nadu is open to anyone claiming to be the saviour of the Tamil language. The latest is where Manmohan Singh the Neutered has declared Tamil to be a Classical Language to propitiate Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion. The most that would come out of this would be expenditure of some Rs. 25 crores to establish chairs in Tamil Studies in a few Indian universities. You can be sure they would all be in Tamil Nadu though Soysauce is ecstatic at the news believing that Panjab University will be opening a Department of Tamil tomorrow. However, what is not known to the public is that Dayanidhi Maran, Doctor Artist Leader`s nephew`s son and the Central minister for IT, has been putting pressure on Reliance to hand over at least one of their fiber cables in Tamil Nadu free to his family`s cable TV venture and has succeeded.
So, what started in 1950 will continue. At that time, the DMK used the movies to brainwash the public. But then, you could watch a movie for only 3 hours a day but with TV you could brainwash the brain-dead 24 hours a day. Which is the goal behind starting Sun-TV, K-TV, Sun News Network and Sumangali Cable Vision.
Notice how anyone connected with the DMK or the ADMK or their current potential rivals such as Rajnikanth or Vijaykanth are all connected with the movie industry.
Compared to this, the average Bhagwan Das of UP elects one Amitabh Bachchhan or one Jaya Prada as MP. The illiterate UP peasant shows more brains than the ``educated`` Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu.
What is frightening is that the Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu are code coolies to the world.
[harimau
//.In a country where the states are organized across linguistic boundaries, Tamil Nadu elects non-Tamil natives...//
That`s no big deal. What amazes me is the fact that tamils who are so touchy about their language, almost worship these folks (MGR, Jaya, Rajnikanth, Khoosboo etc...) who are not even tamilians to start with. What gives?]
It IS a big deal. Has a Tamil been elected even dogcatcher in Calcutta, Delhi, Lucknow, Bhopal or Jaipur? On the other hand the highest elected position in Tamil Nadu is open to anyone claiming to be the saviour of the Tamil language. The latest is where Manmohan Singh the Neutered has declared Tamil to be a Classical Language to propitiate Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion. The most that would come out of this would be expenditure of some Rs. 25 crores to establish chairs in Tamil Studies in a few Indian universities. You can be sure they would all be in Tamil Nadu though Soysauce is ecstatic at the news believing that Panjab University will be opening a Department of Tamil tomorrow. However, what is not known to the public is that Dayanidhi Maran, Doctor Artist Leader`s nephew`s son and the Central minister for IT, has been putting pressure on Reliance to hand over at least one of their fiber cables in Tamil Nadu free to his family`s cable TV venture and has succeeded.
So, what started in 1950 will continue. At that time, the DMK used the movies to brainwash the public. But then, you could watch a movie for only 3 hours a day but with TV you could brainwash the brain-dead 24 hours a day. Which is the goal behind starting Sun-TV, K-TV, Sun News Network and Sumangali Cable Vision.
Notice how anyone connected with the DMK or the ADMK or their current potential rivals such as Rajnikanth or Vijaykanth are all connected with the movie industry.
Compared to this, the average Bhagwan Das of UP elects one Amitabh Bachchhan or one Jaya Prada as MP. The illiterate UP peasant shows more brains than the ``educated`` Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu.
What is frightening is that the Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu are code coolies to the world.
#67 Posted by harimau on October 21, 2004 6:51:21 pm
Ref nikki7777 #56
[To the troll `harimau` or `harimau` the bourgeoise
Veerappan remains hero to poor
By Sunil Raman
.......When asked if Veerappan helped her financially, a couple of women joined her to say that they got nothing from Veerappan.
Where were the people who were allegedly helped by him, I asked. There were none there. Then the old woman said: ``He did not give me any money but I know he was fighting for poor people.``
....Most of the people I talked to said Veerappan never killed a poor man. His fight was against the police and government, they would say.]
Out of 121 persone listed by name in the local Tamil newspaper, 77 belonged not to the police but to the general public.
But then, after kidnapping Nagappa, a former minister from Karnataka, Veerappan claimed that he would release him provided Karnataka released Cauvery water to Tamil Nadu. This was given prominent publicity in the press but everybody knew that this was just a diversion tactic. On the other hand, Soysauce and his band of illiterate mufukkas believe this crap. As exemplified by the perception that he fought for the Tamils.
One guy had the correct view on this. He wrote asking when a political party would run Veerappan`s wife as a candidate for elected office. (For those who miss the connection, the wife of one Venkatesan, a rowdy wanted in several murder cases who was shot dead by the police about 16 months ago, was selected by Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion to run for Parliament. The woman got elected an MP. The suggestion was made that she should be made a minister in the Central cabinet because Tamil women were under-represented in the cabinet. Of course they are, the ministerial posts all having gone to Doctor Artist Leader`s family.)
Veerappan has been buried, not cremated. Time for you to return to Dharmapuri district and start a political party standing next to Veerappan`s grave. Before some Maasanamuthu decides to do it.
[To the troll `harimau` or `harimau` the bourgeoise
Veerappan remains hero to poor
By Sunil Raman
.......When asked if Veerappan helped her financially, a couple of women joined her to say that they got nothing from Veerappan.
Where were the people who were allegedly helped by him, I asked. There were none there. Then the old woman said: ``He did not give me any money but I know he was fighting for poor people.``
....Most of the people I talked to said Veerappan never killed a poor man. His fight was against the police and government, they would say.]
Out of 121 persone listed by name in the local Tamil newspaper, 77 belonged not to the police but to the general public.
But then, after kidnapping Nagappa, a former minister from Karnataka, Veerappan claimed that he would release him provided Karnataka released Cauvery water to Tamil Nadu. This was given prominent publicity in the press but everybody knew that this was just a diversion tactic. On the other hand, Soysauce and his band of illiterate mufukkas believe this crap. As exemplified by the perception that he fought for the Tamils.
One guy had the correct view on this. He wrote asking when a political party would run Veerappan`s wife as a candidate for elected office. (For those who miss the connection, the wife of one Venkatesan, a rowdy wanted in several murder cases who was shot dead by the police about 16 months ago, was selected by Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion to run for Parliament. The woman got elected an MP. The suggestion was made that she should be made a minister in the Central cabinet because Tamil women were under-represented in the cabinet. Of course they are, the ministerial posts all having gone to Doctor Artist Leader`s family.)
Veerappan has been buried, not cremated. Time for you to return to Dharmapuri district and start a political party standing next to Veerappan`s grave. Before some Maasanamuthu decides to do it.
#68 Posted by mohar11 on October 21, 2004 9:44:34 pm
harimau
//...What is frightening is that the Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu are code coolies to the world....//
Well - there is nothing ``frightening`` about that, but I agree it`s sure weird as hell. I never quite figured it out during my two years in Madras.
There was this guy in my company in Madras, who was educated in BITS, pillany and yet would go on and on aginst hindi. There was yet another guy who was my roommate for a few months in Raleigh,NC. He stopped speaking to me after I made a comment about Karunanidhi for trying to make tamil mandatory and English optional in primary schools all over tamilnad.
I mean this guy was in US earning big money just because he has learnt good english early on .... and yet he supports the jack-a$$ plan to reduce the role of english and increase the role of tamil in school education. I mean what good would that bring to any student? I even gave him the example of West bengal - how bongs have screwed themsleves up royally with exactly the same kind mindless stupidity.
This language-chauvinism apart, I still find Maasanamuthu better than Bagwan Das of UP ...or Partho Biswas of Bengal ...or Rajeev Ranjan from Bihar.
//...What is frightening is that the Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu are code coolies to the world....//
Well - there is nothing ``frightening`` about that, but I agree it`s sure weird as hell. I never quite figured it out during my two years in Madras.
There was this guy in my company in Madras, who was educated in BITS, pillany and yet would go on and on aginst hindi. There was yet another guy who was my roommate for a few months in Raleigh,NC. He stopped speaking to me after I made a comment about Karunanidhi for trying to make tamil mandatory and English optional in primary schools all over tamilnad.
I mean this guy was in US earning big money just because he has learnt good english early on .... and yet he supports the jack-a$$ plan to reduce the role of english and increase the role of tamil in school education. I mean what good would that bring to any student? I even gave him the example of West bengal - how bongs have screwed themsleves up royally with exactly the same kind mindless stupidity.
This language-chauvinism apart, I still find Maasanamuthu better than Bagwan Das of UP ...or Partho Biswas of Bengal ...or Rajeev Ranjan from Bihar.
#69 Posted by mumbaikar on October 23, 2004 7:39:14 am
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#70 Posted by irumpu on July 16, 2008 9:40:09 pm
Re: # 68
This interacts shows the arrogance of many Hindians and their hatred for Tamils. Here is an excerpt from a commentary published in the popular Tamil internet monthly Tamil Tribune.
"I live in Chennai and I can attest to the arrogance of Hindi speakers at work place, streets and stores. With the rise of information technology (IT) industry in Tamilnadu, there is an inflow of out-of-staters into Tamilnadu for work. At work, at internal meetings, Hindi speakers sometimes converse in Hindi among themselves leaving others to wonder what they are saying. It is unprofessional and impolite to have their own clique conversations at meetings. More than once the lead project engineer had to ask them to keep their conversations at business meeting in English. You will never see Telugus or Punjabis or Bengalis talking among themselves in their mother tongue at business meetings. (I am not referring to people chatting at the office outside of a business meeting. I have no problem with that.)
While other language groups living in Tamil Nadu obtain a working knowledge of Tamil to interact with people in day-to-day life, most Hindi speakers I know do not learn Hindi even after living here for years. They expect everyone to know Hindi. They do not even speak in English unless the other party refuses to respond in Hindi. Hindi speakers have the arrogance of talking to taxi drivers, bus conductors and hotel staff in Hindi and get annoyed if they do not understand or refuse to respond in Hindi. I have never seen a Bengali or a Maharashtrian attempting to speak to a taxi driver in his/her language.
Hindi speakers own a number of stores in Chennai. I have noticed that they speak to their Tamil employees in Hindi. I have not seen any other people using their language to converse with their Tamil employees. If a Tamil owns a shop in New Delhi or Mumbai he/she would talk to the employees in the local language, never in Tamil, unless the employee knows Tamil.
S. Krishnaswamy Iyengar
May 20, 2008"
This interacts shows the arrogance of many Hindians and their hatred for Tamils. Here is an excerpt from a commentary published in the popular Tamil internet monthly Tamil Tribune.
"I live in Chennai and I can attest to the arrogance of Hindi speakers at work place, streets and stores. With the rise of information technology (IT) industry in Tamilnadu, there is an inflow of out-of-staters into Tamilnadu for work. At work, at internal meetings, Hindi speakers sometimes converse in Hindi among themselves leaving others to wonder what they are saying. It is unprofessional and impolite to have their own clique conversations at meetings. More than once the lead project engineer had to ask them to keep their conversations at business meeting in English. You will never see Telugus or Punjabis or Bengalis talking among themselves in their mother tongue at business meetings. (I am not referring to people chatting at the office outside of a business meeting. I have no problem with that.)
While other language groups living in Tamil Nadu obtain a working knowledge of Tamil to interact with people in day-to-day life, most Hindi speakers I know do not learn Hindi even after living here for years. They expect everyone to know Hindi. They do not even speak in English unless the other party refuses to respond in Hindi. Hindi speakers have the arrogance of talking to taxi drivers, bus conductors and hotel staff in Hindi and get annoyed if they do not understand or refuse to respond in Hindi. I have never seen a Bengali or a Maharashtrian attempting to speak to a taxi driver in his/her language.
Hindi speakers own a number of stores in Chennai. I have noticed that they speak to their Tamil employees in Hindi. I have not seen any other people using their language to converse with their Tamil employees. If a Tamil owns a shop in New Delhi or Mumbai he/she would talk to the employees in the local language, never in Tamil, unless the employee knows Tamil.
S. Krishnaswamy Iyengar
May 20, 2008"
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