One Day At a Time

jang and dost-mittar

The substitution of `Khuda` with `Allah` in the elctronic media of Pakistan was not only the handiwork of petrodollars but perhaps also the reaction of the Shia theocratic revolution in Iran. The phenomenon showed how effective is the electronic media in changing the culture of the people. I am afraid, a time would come perhaps when the famous couplet of Akbar Allah Abadi would become litteraly true to the hilt: -

Raqibon ne rappat likhwai ja ja ke thane mein
Kih Akbar naam leta he khuda ka is zamane mein

But how paradoxical it may appear the mullah continues to stick to `Namaz`and `Roza`, both of persian origin which, he asserts, are the local versions of the Quranic `Salat` and `Som`. The mullah did not, however, indigenised `Haj`, `Zakat` and above all `Hajre Aswad`. This selectiveness is perhaps is due to mullah`s professional necessity.

Malik99 and Dost-Mittar

``Our society, the way we interact, our language, our culture is not part of that good >old `geography` that you look so longingly at.``

A fair statement.

Is it? Only in the dreams of Malik99 and other Islamists. Geography has not died, and Islam does not have everyone in its grip.

A fairer statement would be that Mr. Malik99 would PREFER to kill geography in favor of Islam. The absurd and relentless Allahization and Ramadanization of Pakistan are the pet projects he and other mis-educated Islamists are engaged in in an effort to realize their dreams. Whether they will completely succeed or not, is anybody`s guess.

ramdan/ramzan issue it of utmost importance, expecially to non-believers as this change is a symbol of imported zealotary funded by 70`s petrodollars and not of ``organic evolution``, and its vetor looks dangerous to non-believers.

malik99:
``and when did ``khuda hafiz`` become part of our ``geography``? I thought it was persian!``
malik saaab, pundit, jungle, etc. are indian words but are now part of the english language. As you said,
``and `geography` keeps changing dost sahib. It changed once again when Muhammad Bin Qasim came to Sindh. It changed when Moghals came and when urdu language - with a heavy influence of persian and arabic started``
When all this happened, urdu, along with many persian, arabic and turkish words, became part of my heritage (as also of bollywood!). But you were wrong about ``geography changing``, what changed was not the geography but the cultural evolution of that particular geography. I can say salaam ailakum and you can say namaste without either of us changing our religions. You are justified in saying that things have changed in Pakistan with a virtual euthanasia to some aspects of your geography`s culture, but this has happily not happened in India, since it is still the birthplace of urdu and a language with which millions of muslims and many non-muslims readily relate; if you dont believe me, ask ghulam ali or mehdi hassan who buys more of their albums with urdu ghazals - indians or pakistanis? I for one proudly claim that urdu is part of my heritage, regardless of its origins.
``Our society, the way we interact, our language, our culture is not part of that good old `geography` that you look so longingly at.``
A fair statement. But does it mean that you now have to look towards arabia? A lot of people abuse Naipaul for wrongly claiming that muslim convert is too eager to give up his own culture and adapt the one belonging to a distant land. Are you saying that he is right?

dost-mittar sahib - for a non-religious person who endlessly lambasts muslims for paying too much attention to the ``rituals`` instead of the ``spirit`` of religion, aren`t you paying an aweful lot attention to the symantecs of whether praying should be called `pooja` or `salaat`? and when did ``khuda hafiz`` become part of our ``geography``? I thought it was persian!

and `geography` keeps changing dost sahib. It changed once again when Muhammad Bin Qasim came to Sindh. It changed when Moghals came and when urdu language - with a heavy influence of persian and arabic started.

At some point, dost sahib, you will have to come to this understanding that while we may have been one people and one `geography` in a distant past, and muslims may have been former hindus, they are not any more. Our society, the way we interact, our language, our culture is not part of that good old `geography` that you look so longingly at. Time has moved on. Greeks and Turks no longer look at each other as same people, even though they were all part of the Greek and then Byzantium empire. They are two different people, with markedly different culture. And they have accepted that. Indians and Pakistanis should accept that too.

It will surely help in moving on.

malik99:
actually, yes, because pooja is very much a part of the vocabulary of your geography, just as I can use khuda haafiz, rab raakha, `khair mangna` and `taaweez` without losing my religion.

dost mittar # 34 writes ``What I find more amusing is the attempt to turn ramzan into ramadhan, namaz into salat, khuda hafiz into allah hafiz``

What I find more amusing (and a bit ironic) is that it is mostly the non-fasting and non-praying people like yourself and hamidm who get into this debate of ramzaan/ramadan, namaz/salaat !

If the people who actually bother to offer prayers start calling it `pooja` instead of `salaat`, would it be easier on your sensitive ears? Just wondering.

kaurasach:
I have a different pov wrt rituals than yours. You are against them if they have lost their original meaning. For me, the original meaning is less significant than the fact that they have become part of our heritage and add some colour to our drab lives. Do we really care why we have pumpkin pie or turkey for thanksgiving, dress up as goblins and witches during halloween, have easter bunny and egg-hunt for easter or santa clause and x-mas tree during x-mas (remember, there are no evergreens in jerusalem!)? Similarly, do we really care why we have lohri or mehndi or ghorhi, etc.? Rituals and traditions evolve, so rakhri and pug-banani may not have the same meaning today that was their original meaning (more likely, new dimensions have been added to the old meaning). There are instances when rituals take an evil turn, as is the case with daaj/dowry in India, but they should be fought against as such just as we should fight against non-ritualistic evils, such as female infanticide.

My take on sikhs leaving their symbols is different, even though those symbols have become somewhat archaic now. At an individual level you have made a choice and it is quite clear from your posts that this has in no way diluted your religious identity. But if it happens at a large scale, it can have serious consequences. Regardless of all the progress that has been made in the last century in breaking sikhism`s umbilical cord with hinduism, it is still too early to say that the process is irreversible. As you come from a village background, you are perhaps more aware than me that at the village level there is very little to distinguish between panjabi hindus and sikhs on a daily basis - they all go to the same gurudwara, celebrate the same festivals like baisakhi, diwali, lohri, gurpurb, etc. and share many of the same rituals. The turban and the kesh is really what gives the sikhs their distinctive identity. If those symbols go, the sikh identity may suffer over the long run. This is something that should equally worry the hindus and panjabis, if not Indians. If sikhs start giving up these symbols en mass, it is only a matter of time that another Bbindranwale will appear on the scene to take drastic measures to preserve that identity. And that wont be in anyone`s interest.

drumz:
You make some valid points and have obviously read Sai Baba which I haven`t.
No, I didn`t imply that Sai Baba is the prophet descending from the clouds prophesied in islam. As I said, he is truly a charlatan, although, it is possible that when so many people start believing in a person, the person himself might start having delusions about himself (I would suggest you read R.K. Narayan`s `Guide` - the book, not the film!.
And I dont think that any hindu suspected him of heresy because that concept itself is alien to that religion.

Dost: I actually can produce numerous quotations of sai Babas when he claims to be greater then Rama and Krishna. In 1963 he reffered to himself as an incarnation of shiva (and shakti) who as u know are not known to incarnate (vishnu is only). That is what led many traditional hindus to suspect him of heresy. He actually was exposed also in the early 1970`s for foundling young men in an attempt to raise their kundalini during medition (I have their statements as well).

Sai baba is not jesus as he didnt descend from the clouds as per prophecy. Dude also speaks of non attachement yet from what i know rides around in luxuerious cars. Regardless, his writings can be quite deep.

Regarding miracles, Im sure we know of numerous martial artists who can break cement blocks with the edge of their hands or even their foreheads using chi energy. Can this not be claimed as miraculous? A holy person who can holy his breath for 4 mins or who can reduce his heart beat to almost 2 bps can be considered a miracle worker as well. The human being is capable of many feats.

kaurasach: You make very valid points. I will say this though. Hindus undertsand human nature. They have made the vedas for she who sees god philosophically. They have made the gita for she who sees god literally. They have made idols for those who see god physically. They have the rituals of holi for those who will see god ritually.

The mindset which cannot see past the rituals will be there even if rituals are removed. Look at guru nanak or buddhas example. They removed the caste system or organized rituals and look what seeped into their faiths.

Hamidm: I dono if i should be more shocked at Ylh getting married or for him being in competition with me. Anyways as long as they are cynics like you and cannot type a paragraph without using the elipses four times, im sold. I just hope they arent as religious as u.

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drumz:
``Sai baba is a charletan in my opinion.``
...and in my opinion, too, as were most others who claimed to be prophets/avtars, etc.

`` There is no such idea in hindusim that shiva has any incarnations and he most certainly has not brought peace to the world unlike the legends surrounding the christ or kalki avatar.``

Sai Baba does not claim to be an incarnation of shiva but of vishnu and vishnu is supposed to reincarnate. The kalki avtar has not taken place yet (unless you believe that Mohammad was kalki!) so we have yet to find out if he will bring any peace. And legends surrounding jesus were about his miracles of healing, same as legends surrounding sai baba.

``That being said, I believe in message and not messenger. Who he is is irrelevent. He does indeed make some very good points in his writings.``
Agreed! Some of my best friends are sai followers and I say that without any negative connotations. I haven`t read his writings but his followers do seem to imbibe a very high sense of secular community service, which I admire.

kaurasach:
Rituals don`t kill anyone, at least not humans, which is more than one can say of ideologies.
```saas graas simro...`` (against the ritualistic 5 times)``
...but isn`t that part of gurbani, as is ``saas saas japiye gobind``? Fortunately, however, gurbani does not need to be taken literally, especially since most of it is the works of saints and sufis and not of god himself.

drumz,

....... since ylh got married, you are the front-runner ............. the only problem is that my daughters, inspite of mrs hamidm`s best efforts, have turned out to be cynics like me ....... another potential problem: when i asked my older one how she could go through her bank account not even half way into her first semester at college she replied, ``money flies when you are having fun!``............. i love the fact that she has inherited my sense of humor, but i am a little concerned about her picking up my spending habits .........

.... cheers

RITUALS

i am scared of all the pak/khalsas who want to clense religions of rituals. rituals is the ONLY important part in a religion, something you can touch and feel and enjoy. you make the religion pure and that is where you get into all kinds of trouble.

i mean can you imagine replacing diwali (mithai, fireworks, new clothes, decorations) with a meditation about poor of the world? as if thats doing some fat good.

i always get a cristmas tree, and light a lamp and agarbathi in front of it every evening and give presents to kids. i like cristmas.

does anyone know a good xmas tree Aarti?

and ramzan on Md Ali Rd/bhindi bazar in mumbai is the better than that in any other country (as veeresh would put it). and it has little to do with god.