One Day At a Time

....... ramadhan (or ramzan, as they used to call it in the good old days) has now been made compulsory for all muslims and non-muslims in saudi arabia .......... that, in itself, wouldn`t be a problem but, under the rules of reciprocity, all hindoos in qatar have to be circumcised and in michigan all muslims have to buy their kids presents and the imams of local masajids have to dress up in a red suit and ride a reindeer on christmas day..........

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=52719&d=11&m=10&y=2004&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom

........... there is no end to the idiocy of the ummah !

Hi T:
Ramzaan and zakat are the two aspects of islam which are admired even by kafirs like me. It`s a wonderful concept and was even more wonderful when it was completely voluntary. As for how the dates are to be determined, this is a minor issue and, though not religious, I do believe in traditions and rituals which add a bit of colour to our lives. What I find more amusing is the attempt to turn ramzan into ramadhan, namaz into salat, khuda hafiz into allah hafiz and changing everything into arabic including people`s names.

Ramzaan Mubaarak
(er. sorry!) Ramadhan Marhabba

drumz:
How`re you doing my friend?
``interestingly, ALL Religious leaders have been free thinkers.``
You are too generous. Why not call them for what they were - tricksters and/or hallucinators. Don`t forget that we have a contemporary model in Sai Baba who has convinced more people -highly educated and ``enlightened``- of his divinity than any of the prophets ever did in his lifetime. Would you call him a free thinker?

Dost: I am well and you sir?

Regarding religious masters. My point was that All religious masters (even sai baba) form their own school of thought. They say that there are as many paths as ther are souls. Religious masters through trial and error find their own path.

All religious masters at one time in their lives begin questioning all they know and then tend to start from scratch and build a new philosophy which better suits their internal system. (note: I am not commenting on how correct they are, im just observing what they do).

This can be compared to their followers who at no time in their lives ever question anything. That is the great paradox.

Sai baba is a charletan in my opinion. There is no such idea in hindusim that shiva has any incarnations and he most certainly has not brought peace to the world unlike the legends surrounding the christ or kalki avatar. That being said, I believe in message and not messenger. Who he is is irrelevent. He does indeed make some very good points in his writings.

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RITUALS

i am scared of all the pak/khalsas who want to clense religions of rituals. rituals is the ONLY important part in a religion, something you can touch and feel and enjoy. you make the religion pure and that is where you get into all kinds of trouble.

i mean can you imagine replacing diwali (mithai, fireworks, new clothes, decorations) with a meditation about poor of the world? as if thats doing some fat good.

i always get a cristmas tree, and light a lamp and agarbathi in front of it every evening and give presents to kids. i like cristmas.

does anyone know a good xmas tree Aarti?

and ramzan on Md Ali Rd/bhindi bazar in mumbai is the better than that in any other country (as veeresh would put it). and it has little to do with god.

drumz,

....... since ylh got married, you are the front-runner ............. the only problem is that my daughters, inspite of mrs hamidm`s best efforts, have turned out to be cynics like me ....... another potential problem: when i asked my older one how she could go through her bank account not even half way into her first semester at college she replied, ``money flies when you are having fun!``............. i love the fact that she has inherited my sense of humor, but i am a little concerned about her picking up my spending habits .........

.... cheers

drumz:
``Sai baba is a charletan in my opinion.``
...and in my opinion, too, as were most others who claimed to be prophets/avtars, etc.

`` There is no such idea in hindusim that shiva has any incarnations and he most certainly has not brought peace to the world unlike the legends surrounding the christ or kalki avatar.``

Sai Baba does not claim to be an incarnation of shiva but of vishnu and vishnu is supposed to reincarnate. The kalki avtar has not taken place yet (unless you believe that Mohammad was kalki!) so we have yet to find out if he will bring any peace. And legends surrounding jesus were about his miracles of healing, same as legends surrounding sai baba.

``That being said, I believe in message and not messenger. Who he is is irrelevent. He does indeed make some very good points in his writings.``
Agreed! Some of my best friends are sai followers and I say that without any negative connotations. I haven`t read his writings but his followers do seem to imbibe a very high sense of secular community service, which I admire.

kaurasach:
Rituals don`t kill anyone, at least not humans, which is more than one can say of ideologies.
```saas graas simro...`` (against the ritualistic 5 times)``
...but isn`t that part of gurbani, as is ``saas saas japiye gobind``? Fortunately, however, gurbani does not need to be taken literally, especially since most of it is the works of saints and sufis and not of god himself.

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kaurasach: You make very valid points. I will say this though. Hindus undertsand human nature. They have made the vedas for she who sees god philosophically. They have made the gita for she who sees god literally. They have made idols for those who see god physically. They have the rituals of holi for those who will see god ritually.

The mindset which cannot see past the rituals will be there even if rituals are removed. Look at guru nanak or buddhas example. They removed the caste system or organized rituals and look what seeped into their faiths.

Hamidm: I dono if i should be more shocked at Ylh getting married or for him being in competition with me. Anyways as long as they are cynics like you and cannot type a paragraph without using the elipses four times, im sold. I just hope they arent as religious as u.

Dost: I actually can produce numerous quotations of sai Babas when he claims to be greater then Rama and Krishna. In 1963 he reffered to himself as an incarnation of shiva (and shakti) who as u know are not known to incarnate (vishnu is only). That is what led many traditional hindus to suspect him of heresy. He actually was exposed also in the early 1970`s for foundling young men in an attempt to raise their kundalini during medition (I have their statements as well).

Sai baba is not jesus as he didnt descend from the clouds as per prophecy. Dude also speaks of non attachement yet from what i know rides around in luxuerious cars. Regardless, his writings can be quite deep.

Regarding miracles, Im sure we know of numerous martial artists who can break cement blocks with the edge of their hands or even their foreheads using chi energy. Can this not be claimed as miraculous? A holy person who can holy his breath for 4 mins or who can reduce his heart beat to almost 2 bps can be considered a miracle worker as well. The human being is capable of many feats.

kaurasach:
I have a different pov wrt rituals than yours. You are against them if they have lost their original meaning. For me, the original meaning is less significant than the fact that they have become part of our heritage and add some colour to our drab lives. Do we really care why we have pumpkin pie or turkey for thanksgiving, dress up as goblins and witches during halloween, have easter bunny and egg-hunt for easter or santa clause and x-mas tree during x-mas (remember, there are no evergreens in jerusalem!)? Similarly, do we really care why we have lohri or mehndi or ghorhi, etc.? Rituals and traditions evolve, so rakhri and pug-banani may not have the same meaning today that was their original meaning (more likely, new dimensions have been added to the old meaning). There are instances when rituals take an evil turn, as is the case with daaj/dowry in India, but they should be fought against as such just as we should fight against non-ritualistic evils, such as female infanticide.

My take on sikhs leaving their symbols is different, even though those symbols have become somewhat archaic now. At an individual level you have made a choice and it is quite clear from your posts that this has in no way diluted your religious identity. But if it happens at a large scale, it can have serious consequences. Regardless of all the progress that has been made in the last century in breaking sikhism`s umbilical cord with hinduism, it is still too early to say that the process is irreversible. As you come from a village background, you are perhaps more aware than me that at the village level there is very little to distinguish between panjabi hindus and sikhs on a daily basis - they all go to the same gurudwara, celebrate the same festivals like baisakhi, diwali, lohri, gurpurb, etc. and share many of the same rituals. The turban and the kesh is really what gives the sikhs their distinctive identity. If those symbols go, the sikh identity may suffer over the long run. This is something that should equally worry the hindus and panjabis, if not Indians. If sikhs start giving up these symbols en mass, it is only a matter of time that another Bbindranwale will appear on the scene to take drastic measures to preserve that identity. And that wont be in anyone`s interest.

drumz:
You make some valid points and have obviously read Sai Baba which I haven`t.
No, I didn`t imply that Sai Baba is the prophet descending from the clouds prophesied in islam. As I said, he is truly a charlatan, although, it is possible that when so many people start believing in a person, the person himself might start having delusions about himself (I would suggest you read R.K. Narayan`s `Guide` - the book, not the film!.
And I dont think that any hindu suspected him of heresy because that concept itself is alien to that religion.

dost mittar # 34 writes ``What I find more amusing is the attempt to turn ramzan into ramadhan, namaz into salat, khuda hafiz into allah hafiz``

What I find more amusing (and a bit ironic) is that it is mostly the non-fasting and non-praying people like yourself and hamidm who get into this debate of ramzaan/ramadan, namaz/salaat !

If the people who actually bother to offer prayers start calling it `pooja` instead of `salaat`, would it be easier on your sensitive ears? Just wondering.

malik99:
actually, yes, because pooja is very much a part of the vocabulary of your geography, just as I can use khuda haafiz, rab raakha, `khair mangna` and `taaweez` without losing my religion.