Can Pakistan Work?

there are no state organised pogroms in pakistan ..............really that is something we didnt know about what would the Mr. Hoodbhoy call the ethnic cleansing of the AHMEDIA and worse the SHIA communities and the government mum and inability to control attacks on the mosques belonging to shia community then . Well we keep hearing about this in the entire world media seems Mr . Hoodbhoy is unaware of these fact .Plese sir we request u to update yourself about the situation in your country before pointing a fingure at INDIA.

Bengalis (of whatever religion or region, i.e. East or West, Bangladesh or West Bengal) generally refer to most North Indians (notably excluding Punjabis!) as Hindusthanis. That doesn`t stop Indian Bengalis from thinking of themselves as Indians. All communities - religious, ethnic, whatever - think in terms of `us` and `them`. All of us have multiple identities and it`s about time we began to think whether patriotism/nationalism, etc have any meaning really.

137 by dost-mittar

I am thankful to dost-mittar and also `chowk.com` who enabled me to contact a gentleman who belonged to my age and area but to the community which migrated from the area that came to be called West Pakistan after partition of India. I hope this may help me trace out other friends also who belonged to that very category.

Di

Abay, there appears to be confusion between the terms `Hindustani` and `Indian.` The two have never been exact equivalents, the latter being the older and broader name.

The name `Hindustani` was used flexibly. In the linguistic cultural sense it referred specifically to the urdu-based culture of Awadh and nearabouts. Thus, `Hindustani` language was Urdu-Hindi. ``Hindustani` music was the music of north India. `Hindustani` dances` were kathak and other dances of Lucknow/Delhi area, and so on.

That surely doesnt mean that nobody in the south/east/and west thought of himself or herself as Indian. Certainly that`s not the implication for south Indians who had their own fully-developed non-Hindustani languages, and traditions of dance, drama, and music. Before he received revelations in Spain, Iqbal too considered himself everybit Hindustani (Indian in a broader than Punjabi sense).

Jinnah, of course, was keenly aware of his Indian (if `non Hindustani`) heritage. That is why, he did NOT want the name `India` to be given to one of the two entities borne out of India.

Di, TNT messed up many things of history, geography, and culture. `Hindustan` whether used in a narrower or broader sense, was a geographic entity. After partition, it was tried to be given a religious foundation. That doesn`t work quite neatly.

Consider the cruel irony that between the two geographical inheritors of `India,` the one that explicitly rejects the label of `Hindustani` is also the one that has officially adopted Hindustani language and culture as its own.

Very-very mixed up boundaries of language, geography, and religion....

teshah:
I have contacted my friend. His email address is: roshanls@hotmail.com.

He did his matric from Hasan Abdal High School and he will be very happy if you contacted him.
Happy memories!

134 by dost-mittar

Thank you dear. I will wait for your post. I can be contacted direct on my email. My email address is: talawat@hotmail.com. May be internet and chowk do this miracle and `vichhre yaar mila dewe`.

As regards the Punjab and the Unionist Party I am to say that it was actually not a political party in true sense but a trade union of the toady feudals of Punjab. It disappeared as soon as Punjab was politicised by Muslim League, Congress and the Akali Party of Tara singh.

perhaps Faiz wrote this couplet for Pakistan`s imprisoned democracy -- molested, mutilated devastated by Musharraf......and the anxiety it is causing among the Pakistan`s expatriates and home intellectuals.....

Chaman pe ghaarut-e gul cheeN se jaanay keya guzree
Qafas se ho kay saba baar baar guzree hai

last misra a million dollar bund -- what a poetic descripion of becoming anxious and showing anxiety -- Qafas se HO KAY saba baar baar guzri hai.....

.......this is what Dr. Hoodbhoy marvellously written anxious column represents.......anxiety about Pakistan never-ending line of military prophets.....hawking the SAME 50 years old rotten rancid Snake Oil as the yet newest remedy for all Pakistan ills.....

teshah:
shahji, I`ll get back to you after speaking to the said gentleman.

dionysus:
If the unionist leaders approached the British rulers, I doubt if they were representing hindus and sikhs. It is like Ammanullah Khan claiming that he speaks for kashmiris even though no pandit, sikh, dogra or buddhist supports his demands. And I am not sure if many muslims supported them either. The ghadar movement in north america was primarily by panjabis and it never occurred to them that they were fighting for an independent panjab. When the muslim, hindu and sikh panjabis volunteered for Azad Hind Fauj, they did not think that they were fighting for Panjabistan. For that matter, when Iqbal sang about `hindi hain hum watan hai` he wasn`t thinking of Panjab alone.

I agree with you that we panjabis called hindi-speaking people hindustani. But this term denoted a linguistic-ethnic meaning similar to madrasis and bengalis and not a national connotation.
...and now, I better go and deal with all the flak I am getting on my employment equity board from my Indian brethern.

#53 by yasirz

[besides probably half of your army is malnourished and incapable of waging combat...just like the cricket team :)]

Remember, the very same malnourished army took 93,000 able-bodied, virile Paki soldiers prisoners as they were busy raping Bangla women in 1971, and then kicked Paki ass in Kargil forcing Nawaz Sharif to run to Washington to beg Clinton for a reprieve, not to mention the thrashing you guys received in 1948 and 1965 as well.

And the Indian Cricket Team mauled your team in both the test series and one-dayers early this year.

So what are we talking about here?

dost mittar #129

You are being extremely disingenous. I didn`t mention Hindu, Sikh or Muslim leaders of the Unionist party. I mentioned the leaders of the Unionist party, who all wanted an independent Punjab and didn`t give two hoots about Islam, Hinduism or `India`.

Punjabis never considered themselves to be Indian. `Hindustani` meaning Poorbia or Hindi-Urdu speaker was practically an insult among Punjabis. If our forefathers could come back and see modern day Punjabi Khatris calling themselves `Hindustanis` they would die laughing.

121 by dost_mittar

Thank you dear dost_mittar. Sorry, I dont remember any class-fellow Roshan Lal by name and the headmaster in my time in the G.H.S. Campbellpur was a Sikh gentleman, Gill by name. Any how I would love to contact Mr. Roshan Lal if you please give me his address.
May be he remembers me or any one I knew. I, Talawat, was a well-known boy at the school. In 1946 when a compaign was undergoing for the release of Azad Hind Fouj Officers I was in the forefront in getting the school and the whole bazar closed and leading a march with a Muslim League flag in my hand. In the afternoon all the students of the 10th class were made to fall in in the Police Station. Every one who was asked whether he was present in the `Jaloos` said ``No``. I was the only one who said, `` Yes, Iwas present``. In the evening the SHO came to our house in Cambellpur Cantt. riding on a horse. He lectured me for over an hour advising me against such political activity which might ruin my carrear. The next day the Headmaster, Mr. Gill also made me stand up in the class and admonished me against such an activity. But I never listened to them all and at last did get my carrear ruined while in Medical College.
``JanooN meiN jo bhi guzri bakar guzri he, agarchih dil pih kharabi hazzaar guzri he``, Faiz Ahmad Faiz

121 by dost_mittar

Thank you dear dost_mittar. Sorry, I dont remember any class-fellow Roshan Lal by name and the headmaster in my time in the G.H.S. was a Sikh gentleman Gill by name. Any how I would love to contact Mr. Roshan Lal if you please give me his address.

dionysus#127:
I do not know about Sir Sikandar`s approach to the British and you may be more knowlegeable about it. But I noticed that you did not add any hindu-sikh leaders of the unionist party among them. The fact is that Lahore was one of the priamary centres of freedom struggle; Lala Lajpat Rai and Bhagat Singh did not seek a separate Panjab; The Azad Hind Fauj of Subhash Bose was led by the three panjabis, a hindu (Sehgal), a muslim (Shahnawaz Khan) and a sikh (Dhillon).

sac #20 Roger`s `scientific` prognostications for India aren`t too bright either.

How does India stack up to China, for adventurous investors?

It doesn’t. India is a hopeless case. I still wouldn’t put any money in India. There’s always the occasional great success story, but the Indian government is hopeless. The infrastructure is a disaster. India talks a good game but not with my money. In China, I could use my mobile phone all over the country. In India, you have to buy a separate mobile phone in each city. And those guys claim to be the great IT leaders of the world. If you walk into the shops in India, you see computers that are three years behind what you would get in New York. Most phones there don’t work at all. It is a bureaucratic and chauvinistic nightmare. I went there very optimistic. But the reality close to the ground was not with my money. And the country, of course, is going to split up. It is not a real country. The English mushed it together in 1947 in a panic and the borders of India as we know it will not survive.


The regional tensions just can’t be tamed?

There are different religions, different languages, different everything. I mean, it is not a country. Not a logical country, anyway. Those tensions will come to the fore and something will happen. Now if you can find a good Indian company, this doesn’t mean you won’t make a fortune. England has been in decline for 80 years. A lot of people have still made a lot of money there—in stocks and otherwise too. So don’t get me wrong. But I only have so much time. If I found a good trader, I might do something in India, but otherwise I’ll skip India.



http://www.weedenco.com/welling/archive/li/v05i15lilogo.asp

#121 ``As far as I am aware, there was no significant movement to split Panjab from the rest of the subcontinent in the last century, except the Khalistan movement. ``

You have made this totally false statemant many times. Sardar Sikandar`s and Malik Khizar`s Unionist Party was a supporter of a united independent Punjab. They approached British leaders, including Churchill, about it and Malik Khizar believed he would get an independent Punjab almost to the end.

Punjab has not ever been a part of `India`. Historically, for Punjabis `Hindustanis` (indians) to the East and `Kandharis` (pathans) to the West were always the alien and foreign `other`. You can find many references in Punjabi literature that substantiate this.

#116 by teshah on October 23, 2004 5:44pm PT

Dear Teshah:

Your interact is a breath of fresh air here at Chowk, in otherwise vengeful interactions on India-Pakistan issues. Your generation lived in peace and amity, my generation fed the younger generation on hateful messages, and as a result some of our younger generation is mired in hateful hysteria on both side of the border. Before your generation part, we owe to chronolize the memories, good, bad and ugly. I am very keen to know such anecdotes from Pakistan side of the border. I met in Silicon Valley, an elderly gentleman in his 80s, who had migrated from Hydrabad to Karachi. He became as leading lawyer and also was Professor and taught law at Univ. of Karachi. It was amazing to see sparkle in his eyes and voice when he was narrating his childhood experiences in Hydrabad. He is fondly known in Silicon Valley`s Pakistani community as Professor sahib. There was a touch of sadness in his voice when he described the current state of Pakistan as a betrayal of the original vision.

I hope you will share more incidences of this kind from your lives journey.

Anil

Thank you echoboom for your kind words.

---

dost_mittar


Events in history are hardly ever due to a single causative stimulus. It is a combination of factors that become a process and precipitate an event. This is true as much of the Moplah revolts as of any other occurence anywhere anytime.

Religion, I observed very early on, plays a divisive role in society, and as such its influence in exacerbating and overlaying tensions due to quite different causes can neither be underestimated nor discounted.

I do not know whether Dr. Pannikar is a Marxist or not -- my habit is to take every thought served up to me with a pinch of salt, no matter who the author is.

---

Harimau

I am in the knowledge that forced conversions have always been attempted, and carried out by adherents of different religions. Such conversions are a loathsome practice, whosoever practices them.

I have always held, and do hold, that belief (religion) is an entirely individual matter and society and the state as the formation that society creates to order itself, should have absolutely nothing to do with belief (religion).

It has happened in the past, and it is quite likely to happen again, that certain sections within a larger society can become homogenous, cohesive and powerful enough to run a parallel ``state`` within a state. The tribal areas in the northwest of Pakistan are one such example, where the writ of the Pakistan government is enforced only when the people of that area are preceived to be acting against the interests of the government by the government of the day.

---

The advent of Islam in India and its influence on Indian society, is itself the subject of a very vast study.

The first contacts of Islam with India were probably through the newly converted Arab traders, who used to stop by at South Indian ports on their voyages to Indonesia and Mallacca.

It is interesting to note that the better know Sufis, such as Ali Hajweri, Moinuddin Chisti, Fareeduddin Masud Ganj Shakar, Nizamuddin Auliya, Sharfuddin Boo Ali Qalandar, Osman Al Marwandi (Lal ShahBaz Qalandar) etc. etc., are all to be found in the northwesterly parts of India, and their coming to India dates far later than the Arab invasion and conquest of Sindh etc., by Mohammad bin Qasim.

After the death of the Prophet of Islam in AD 632, very soon the Byzantine and Persian empires were conquered. The claim that Islam had become Imperial soon after the demise of its Prophet holds plenty of water.

A certain school of historians justifies or explains the Arab invasion of Sindh with various versions of a story about atrocities perpetrated by Raja Dahir`s officials on the crew(s) of a boat(s) carrying Muslim pilgrims. W`Allah Aalim! But Empire has its own logic and internal dynamism, expansion and constant hegemonization being key components of that dynamism. The Eastward and Westward thrusts of the Islamic Empire merely illustrate that.
The state of Hajjaj bin Yousaf`s suzerainty at the time that the Arab invasion of Sindh occurred required new sources of revenue, and Sindh, seemed what we in Urdu call a ``Tarr Nawalah.`` -- an easy bite to be gobbled up.

The question, however, remains that there were substantial conversions to Islam in the wake of the Arab conquest. Some of them, undoubtedly, may have been under duress or fear.

But let us not forget that the religion of the ruling blocs of the time espoused an elaborate exclusivist caste system. Islam, it would seem, presented an alternate to those exclude from social acceptance.

When Mahmad of Ghazni (or Ghazna) invaded India, there already were Musulmaans there, though the ruler of the Punjab was Jaipal. Mahmud may have been a very good general and administrator, but he is remembered justly as a vandal and a plunderer by history, and his repeated invasions were merely so many pillaging forays, no more, no less.

Siddiqua Haqnawaa

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Hey - all you guys posting your cra@ppy urdu/hindi/vernacular poems - Would you mind putting a English translation - so that rest of us can understand what`s going on here .... please ???

dost-mitter sahib -- meiN Adha Hindu hooN -- magar subzee naheeN khataa....:-)

teshah#116
Voh bhooli daastaaN lo phir yaad aa gayee
Nazar ke saamnay ghataa si chhaa gayee!

That was truly touching, shahji! I must have passed near your place on my way from Taxila to Peshawar earlier this year. Your post is a pointer to one of the great ``What ifs`` of history. Hopefully, the borders will once again become open with people free to meet and greet old friends.
A gentleman I know in Ottawa is of your age and from your area and might have gone to the same high school. His name is Roshan Lal. If you know him, I would be glad to get him in touch with you. He once told me the story of how his headmaster, a muslim, treated him with special affection for being a bright student and he, in turn, used to tutor the headmaster`s son.

SameerJB:
``I am of the opinion that locals had no love, yearning or desire to be part of a big because being part of the big one throughout long history (under Guptas, Mauryas, Scythians, Bactrians, Parthians and then Muslims did them no god). They accepted to be part of big with no fond memories of any of the above.``

You may be right from a historical perspective. But I think that the anti-colonial movement did unite Punjabis with Bengalis and others; of course it also gave rise to the concepts of the hindu and muslim nationhoods. As far as I am aware, there was no significant movement to split Panjab from the rest of the subcontinent in the last century, except the Khalistan movement. You reminded me of those who claim that the separatist movement in Kashmir is about Kashmiriyat even though it is supported only by the people of one faith.

nasah:
Thank you, bhaijaan. If I am the doosri aankh, then you must be the pehli. But then, you have already been tagged ``aadha hindu``, and I a cultural muslim. Both rightly so:-).

``#116 by teshah on October 23, 2004 5:44pm PT
99 by dost_mittar

Oh my dear dost_mittar you touched my heart when you mentioned the ‘enemy’ that once was.``(tshah)

dost-mitter is one of those Hindus about whom some one in old India had said -- Hindu hai ek aankh mussalman doosree

tshah your tribute to dost touched MY heart.....as well

in the same veins tshah sahib -- let me recite to you a couplet of mine:

-- Dair ko Hindu kee, mssjid ko mussalmaN kee talaash
-- Kho gaiee iss khoj meiN insaaN ko insaaN kee talaash

dost-mittar:

You are right, that is why I carefully used the term ``monumental temples`` like Somnath, Ram Mandir and like those in Tamil Nadu. Of course there were worship places for Hindus but they mostly tended to local needs. The worshippers themselves sometime torn down old one to build a new one, sometime on top of old one and other times at a new place. The holyness of temple in temple traditions (post Vedic and post Epic) which originated in, I believe, in central and south India did not arrive in Punjab, NWFP and Afghanistan for some reason. History does record a temple in Multan where diwali celebration is supposed to have originated. Additionally moumental temples require servicing, which is only available in decent size cities. In Punjab, NWFP and Afghanistan, other than Lahore, Multan and Kandhar, no major cities existed to afford servicing a large size temple. Villages do not need big mosques, temples or gurdwaras.

re: teshah

That was a moving piece and in itself a tribute to your friends from pre-Independent days. Many people have resorted to writing about these experiences, which is sort of therapeutic from the feeling of recording the feelings of long lost friends. There is a shopkeeper of sweets in London, who has been doing Punjabi poety with half of his poems mention the name of his childhood friend Mohan somewhere in Indian Punjab. All Punjabi radio stations in London love him and give him free and live air time to read out his poems. His name is Akhtar something...

re: creation of Pakistan or partition of british Indian empire

There are really four or five factors one can concentrate in this respect. They are: TNT, ML, Jinnah, British and locals. Different people order them differently based on their own reading and interest. Most Indians put TNT and Jinnah above the rest. Yasser (MAntolives) gives most credit to Jinnah. Official Pakistani ideology also puts TNT very high along with Jinnah followed by ML. Some well educated people give credit to British for wanting to do a favor to the area providing them with soldiers, remaining loyal and also belonging to one of the middle eastern based sister religion. The old leftists and commies credit it to feudals who saw more safety of their dominance under Pakistan than socialistic Nehru dominated Congress.

I am of the opinion that locals had no love, yearning or desire to be part of a big because being part of the big one throughout long history (under Guptas, Mauryas, Scythians, Bactrians, Parthians and then Muslims did them no god). They accepted to be part of big with no fond memories of any of the above. The five most famous people in Punjab to this day (among intellectuals) are: Pouros, Ranjit Singh, Dullabhatti, Ahmed Khan Kharal and Waris Shah). Notice none of them represents any of the major empire. To them, smaller was the better option and Pakistan was not exactly what they had in mind but at least it was smaller with hope for more power to ethnicities. TNT was only a factor in Muslim minority areas during municipal and other elections before 1946 referendum type elections. Muslim majority regions currently in Pakistan did not buy TNT and TNT remained to the east of Jamuna river.

Basically, the frontier and tribal mentality of these people, fighting and compromising within local environment for centuries, remaining outside power corridors throughout history of empires finally won the day.

SameerJB:
Good observations!
It is ironic that the descendants of those who suffered most of the atrocities are now the defendants of the perpetrators while the descendants of those who escaped the worst atrocities, including Panjabi Hindus and Sikhs, claim to be the worst victims.
I am not sure that there were no temples or monastries in Panjab at the time of the invasions. When I travelled in himachal pradesh last year I was struck by the number of old temples there. Remember, this is an area of old panjab which remained relatively unaffected by invasions and remained more or less completely hindu throughout the muslim rule. My hunch (no more!) is that North India was largely shaivite at that time. The muslims referred to the temples generally as `shivalas`. Most of the old temples in the north are dedicated to shiva or various forms of his shakti, including the famous temple of vaishno devi near Jammu. Incidentally, the famous Ketas Raj in Chakwal is also dedicated to Shiva. And the Kashmiri pandits are also shaivites and meat eaters.

Yes, people were not very religious but I think that this was true of all of India before the advent of Islam. Faith was an individual matter and people probably changed religions much like they change political parties. I suspect that the situation was like the old japanese joke about the number of buddhists and christians adding up to 150% of the population.

siddiqua#109:
I am not very knowledgeable about the mopla rebellion/riots. But Mr. Pannikar`s description sounds suspiciously like the typical Marxist historian`s approach. These historians discount the influence of religion as a motivating factor, overlook the obvious and try to find the root cause in class struggle. My own humble opinion is that it is generally not a matter of one or the other but a multiplicity of factors operating at any given time, with religion, economics and politics all playing their roles.

Incidentally, the first communal riots in India took place in the late 19th century after the hindu and muslim nationalism sfirst reared their (ugly?) heads.

99 by dost_mittar

Oh my dear dost_mittar you touched my heart when you mentioned the ‘enemy’ that once was. I quote you: -

“P.S. I am writing this to you because you belong to an earlier generation which presumably had the actual experience of living with the `enemy` and know that he was not as big a monster as he is sometimes made out to be in the textbooks now found in many of your schools``.

This reminds me of Ghalib’s famous couplet: -

Kalkutta ka jo zikr kia tu ne hamnasheen
Ik teer mere seena pih mara kih haae haae
You asked me how were those ‘enemies’ who might have been my class fellows in the pre-partition days.
Dear Mittar (How I wish you were one), I am 74 now but I still remember my Hindu and Sikh class-fellows with whom I studied over 60 years ago, first in the Sanatan Dharam High School, Jand, District Cambellpur upto 7th and then in Government High School, Campbellpur (Now Attock City), upto 10th which I cleared in 1946. In the morning school prayer in the Hindu school we used to sing Bhajan ‘Jagdeesh hare, Jagdeesh hare, nirbal ke puran pukar rahe’ and saluted our teachers with ‘OM’ in typical Hindu fashion. It was a predominantly Muslim area but nobody ever objected to our studying in a Hindu School and adopting Hindu culture. These were the most beautiful days of my boyhood. In that S.D. High School, Jand, I had a class fellow named Gian Chand. We loved each other so much that I used to weep when I missed to see him due to closure of the school. Gian usually reached school first in the morning and when he would see me coming he would run for about a furlong to greet me with a ‘japhi’. What an innocent and pure love it was between a Hindu and a Muslim boy no body could imagine today. Gian chand migrated to India on partition and joined Indian Army. We exchanged correspondence for some time, but a crisis that overwhelmed my life for some time made me forget everything, even Gian, my beloved friend. I had also good Hindu and Sikh friends at the G.H.S., Campbellpur but lost contact with all of them. At this fag end of my life I would love to have contact with any of them. I tried to get a visa for India but failed. I was born in a part of India which later came to be renamed as Pakistan, read ‘Mother India’ by Minu Massani in Matric and sang the ‘Tarana’ of Iqbal ‘ Hindi hein ham watan he Hindostan hamara, ham bulbulein hein iski yih gulsitan hamara’. But what a pity I could not get a visa to visit India, which was once my “Motherland” and now “Grandmotherland” or “Sub-continent”. What a play of words but how it separated the loved ones never to see each other again, perhaps.

Ref Siddiqua #109

[The Moplah revolts have been characterized as ``communal violence`` by some, but they need to be examined more deeply than they have been. They were in the nature of spontaneous uprisings of the havenots against the haves, it being being an accident of birth that the majorities of the havenots and haves were also divided on religious lines.

And we are to presume that the thousands of Hindus who were converted to Islam and ate dishes of cooked to beef to seal their conversion did so voluntarily when they saw the correctness of the socio-economic beliefs of the proletariat. The fact that their family members had their throats slit or were raped had no impact at all on them. We are to presume further that the same ideological fervor motivates the killing of Hindus in Kerala today.

[Interesting details can be found in article by Dr. K. N. Pannikar......]

I was going to write that one of the interesting details about Dr. KN Panikkar`s life would be that he got his PhD in History at Jawaharlal Nehru University. Unfortunately, Google didn`t provide an answer in my limited search. However, the jackpot that I found was that KN Panikkar was Professor of History at JNU. Now, why am I NOT surprised?

For those who want to know more about self-loathing Hindus who are wringing their hands that they didn`t have enough females in their families to offer to the Islamic thugs for rape, here is what else I found on Googling KN Panikkar. I think it is rather funny.

[http://www.mumbai-central.com/nukkad/dec2002/msg00215.html



Top: nukkad: archive: Thread Index

echoboom #110

Good to see you welcome a new entrant.

Mr. Jinnah would have been proud of you. You are an unabased admirer of Urstruly. You have sung praises of every half-baked Islamist on Chowk. You find western education to be a curse for the Islamic world. You have abused Muslim women for their `liberal views.`

``Islam khatre mai hai,`` and ``Pakistan Khatre mai hai`` have been your pet songs. It will be interesting to see how long this age-old strategy will continue to work for you.

The mass scale conversion to Islam was a synergy affair between Islamic Empires, ground made fertile by the jizya and other advantages for convertng and Sufis. Sufis came on the heels of and with the invaders. They settled in the conquered territories with the blessings and support of the invaders-rulers. Out of thousands of Sufis, just like pirs of today, most were nothing but ascetics, monastics, mystics, half naked dervishes along with crooked, cunning, selfish and cheat Sufis. Thanks to the work of few - mostly literary and theoretical - Sufism and Sufis get good marks in history of subcontinent. The biggest proof of synergy is total failure of proselytizing efforts for almost 200 years preceeding the invasion of Mahmud Ghaznavi. These efforts were mostly done by preachers from Ismaili and Shia branches of Islam, originating from Multan which was under Arabs for 200 years prior to invasion of Mahmud Ghaznavi. People of the region would not accept the conservative, dry, tasteless and rituals heavy in unintelligible language against their fun loving, jovial, liberal and non-religious nature.

The teachings of brotherly love and peace were necessary for conversions and they favored the minority converts much more than the majority non-Muslims. Who benefits more if 90 are non-Muslims and 10 are Muslims out of 100 in an isolated environment with little protection for the minority from rulers?

re: Gandiv post

While most of your post is true except the spin on the description by using word Hindu for the victims. The population of the area comprising Pakistan was mostly non-religious and irreligious for most of history until Sikhs coalesced and fought for and later in the last 100-200 years both Muslims and Hindus also made religion most important part of their identity.
It is lot better and objective to call the victims as locals and non-Muslims than Hindus, given the current definition and political implications of one nation concept in subcontinent.

While Raja Jaipal and Raja Dahir were no doubt Hindus, but most of the population hardly did anything religious. The caste system was negligible and irrelevent, men drank, women danced and mixed with men freely and all ate meat. All the demolition of temples took place in current India because there were no monumental temples in Punjab and Sindh except of course if you consider Somnath at the southern tip of Sindh. People did not take religion as important as today and easily converted to Hinduism, then to Buddhism, back to Hinduism, to Islam, to Sikhism and to Christianity in the last.

There were no towns or cities dominated by either Brahmins or Untouchables - Shudras. Tribalism, local culture and politics dominated the minds of people. The words Tamil, Gujratis or Bengalis did not appear in Punjabi, Pashtun or Sindhi literature before or after Islamic invasions.

However, calling these people Hindu brings a kind of bonding, angry feelings and victimization by current Hindus of Tamil Nadu as well as Bengalis and takes the victimization and sufferings away from people who actually suffered but are no longer Hindus. It also makes India as the sole inheritor of all the history of sufferings, victimization and civilization which produce beautiful cultures from Indic civilizations as our languages represent.

The fact of the matter is that most people were perfectly happy and satisfied with local culture without the theology and phhilosophy of any religion. Please note that I have great respect for the philosophical basis of Hinduism (minus caste system and vegetarianism) and actually consider it superior to Islamic philosophy for the reasons that it has the input of countless people spread over centuries or millenia than one man devising philosophy and codes of living for the rest of human history everywhere, in addition to relying and respecting on psyche of human mind much more than submission as is the case with middle eastern religions.

Just because the current breed of Pakistani Muslims disown this painful history in favor of the history of invaders - rulers for the religious reason does not mean that India and Hindus rightfully own it. They can sympathize with it but can`t own it. Similarly the demolition of temples in central and south India and other vagaries of Islamic rule there are rightfully owned by the Indians and Pakistanis should not own Babri Masjid type issues. The forefathers of Pakistanis neither demolished Ram temple or any other temple and they did not erect Babri Mosque on top of ruins.

Manto,

Your Country is there to stay. When you lied, we made two out of one. Bangladesh.

Why should we want any part of it?? Keep it buddy. No matter what.

We do Hav FV and Dost who you like. Let her write what are driving rights in Saudi. All her oppolo... like Dost.. and others will go sleeping.....


There are NO rights for a woman. NONE.

DOST????? write trave...?? Go Saudi Born liar.

Born bull sh?? My Mother just happened to be at Durdga Puja in Kolkatta. Go and lick shoes if sardars. They killed my mother??

Could you ever explain. Never. All you do is for Muslims...

Yogiraj

# 101 dost_mittar

The Moplah revolts have been characterized as ``communal violence`` by some, but they need to be examined more deeply than they have been. They were in the nature of spontaneous uprisings of the havenots against the haves, it being being an accident of birth that the majorities of the havenots and haves were also divided on religious lines.

These outbreaks were not confined to the 1920-21 occurence. In fact, between 1836 and 1921, there were many such outbreaks, which the British labeled as ``Moplah outrages``. Apart from the 1921 outbreak, almost all were limited in scope and extent. The 1921 outbreak was a major conflict, where according to official figures there were 3,989 casualties and 45,404 surrendered/arrested.

Interesting details can be found in article by Dr. K. N. Pannikar at
www.e-malabar.net/kerala/revolts.htm from which the following quote has been taken.

``The influence of agrarian grievances in shaping the nature of rebel activity was quite clear. The reaction of the Pukkottur Mappilas, when the rebellion broke out on the 20th August, is a good example. Although disturbed by the desecration of the mosque at Tirurangadi, the Mappilas of Pukkottur chose to proceed to Nilambur where their landlord resided. Moreover, they did not harm anybody on the way. Even in the landlord`s family they did not injure any one; their sole aim appeared to be the destruction of land records.``

Siddiqua:

True to your profile announcement, You did conquer CHOWK.

Welcome Siddiqua. Your arrival has checked the stalemate here. Now only a cursory visitor to the front-page articles, I intend to visit more often now just to read your posts and those of a handful others here. The rest I never read anymore because:
`` MeiN jaantaa hooN kyaa voh likhaiN gey javaab meiN``.

CHOWK is really an ``akhhaRRA`` where the umpires too get ,sometimes, excited. They, pretending to be friends, hold your hands in a firm grip while Islam, muslim and Pakistan bashers are having a field-day pummelling you.

What they know not (or perhaps do and are fifth-columnists) is that they are heating, tempering, and annealing the steely-resolve of a nation to get back on its feet again.

The miasma emanating from the rot of colonialism and westernism has been identified. Even the ``educated`` ones know how they were duped by the western ``education``.

Gulaa tO ghoont diyaa ahl-e madressa* ney tiraa
kahaaN sey aaey sadaa ``La ila ha il al-Allah``

* the westernised schooling.

Welcome again.

P.S: Your reply to Ijaz-Gul about profile was apt. Please retain full ``anonymity``. It is not wise to exchange e-mails. There are a few pathological junkies and losers here who try to establish contacts outside this cyberspace. Shun them.

re:#107 by jang
Sufism did not come with the muslim invaders of the subcontinent. It was the result of centuries of interaction between Islam and Hindusim, a kind of moderating influence of the latter on the former. Methinks Sufi thought in Islam is the best thing that could have happened. Rumi and Omar Khayyam (yes, he too was a sufi, believe it or not!) wrote inspiring verses.
Sridhar

re: Dost-Mittar # 101

Bravo! I agree with the last sentence of your post! That my friend is the unsaid truth and till that change happens, nothing progressive will materialize in Pakistan. The rot in Pakistan started because there was no political plurality left in this nation after 1947 and more so after 1956, when the Objectives Resolution was passed.

Ciao

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#105 Gandiv

what you wrote (quoted) is about temple distruction, killings and mayhem. this does not mean that islamic conversions did not happen via the sufis.

Ralph,

A little correction: Islam didn`t come spreading light through Sufis, in fact, Sufis were the product of Hindu-Muslim confluence mainly orginated from the undivided Punjab.

Islam was and is a politico-religous doctrine which declines equal status for different religous faiths. Some might argue Islam is peaceful and advocates tolerance of other religions; but then the tolerance was paid for by non-muslims through Jijiya-tax (an amount paid by non-muslim populace to muslim ruler for allowing them to keep their faith).

Irrespective of what the muslim tolerance means, the extreme jehadi starins have always managed to control the ruling elites and dictate their policies.

Regarding peaceful arrival into Indian subcontinent, here are some figures that any historian would agree:
**************************************************************************

The world famous historian, Will Durant has written in his Story of Civilisation that ``the Mohammedan conquest of India was probably the bloodiest story in history``.

India before the advent of Islamic imperialism was not exactly a zone of peace. There were plenty of wars fought by Hindu princes. But in all their wars, the Hindus had observed some time-honoured conventions sanctioned by the Sastras. The Brahmins and the Bhikshus were never molested. The cows were never killed. The temples were never touched. The chastity of women was never violated. The non-combatants were never killed or captured. A human habitation was never attacked unless it was a fort. The civil population was never plundered. War booty was an unknown item in the calculations of conquerors. The martial classes who clashed, mostly in open spaces, had a code of honor. Sacrifice of honor for victory or material gain was deemed as worse than death.

Islamic imperialism came with a different code--the Sunnah of the Prophet. It required its warriors to fall upon the helpless civil population after a decisive victory had been won on the battlefield. It required them to sack and burn down villages and towns after the defenders had died fighting or had fled. The cows, the Brahmins, and the Bhikshus invited their special attention in mass murders of non-combatants. The temples and monasteries were their special targets in an orgy of pillage and arson. Those whom they did not kill, they captured and sold as slaves. The magnitude of the booty looted even from the bodies of the dead, was a measure of the success of a military mission. And they did all this as mujahids (holy warriors) and ghazls (kafir-killers) in the service of Allah and his Last Prophet.

Hindus found it very hard to understand the psychology of this new invader. For the first time in their history, Hindus were witnessing a scene which was described by Kanhadade Prabandha (1456 AD) in the following words


``The conquering army burnt villages, devastated the land, plundered people`s wealth, took Brahmins and children and women of all classes captive, flogged with thongs of raw hide, carried a moving prison with it, and converted the prisoners into obsequious Turks.``

That was written in remembrance of Alauddin Khalji`s invasion of Gujarat in the year l298 AD. But the gruesome game had started three centuries earlier when Mahmud Ghaznavi had vowed to invade India every year in order to destroy idolatry, kill the kafirs, capture prisoners of war, and plunder vast wealth for which India was well-known.

---

MAHMUD AND MASOOD GHAZNAVI

In 1000 AD Mahmud defeated Raja Jaipal, a scion of the Hindu Shahiya dynasty of Kabul. This dynasty had been for long the doorkeeper of India in the Northwest. Mahmud collected 250,000 dinars as indemnity. That perhaps was normal business of an empire builder. But in 1004 AD he stormed Bhatiya and plundered the place. He stayed there for some time to convert the Hindus to Islam with the help of mullahs he had brought with him.

In 1008 AD he captured Nagarkot (Kangra). The loot amounted to 70,000,000 dirhams in coins and 700,400 mans of gold and silver, besides plenty of precious stones and embroidered cloths. In 1011 AD he plundered Thanesar which was undefended, destroyed many temples, and broke a large number of idols. The chief idol, that of Chakraswamin, was taken to Ghazni and thrown into the public square for defilement under the feet of the faithful. According to Tarikh-i-Yamini of Utbi, Mahmud`s secretary,

``The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously [at Thanesar] that the stream was discolored, notwithstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise he to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims.``

In 1013 AD Mahmud advanced against Nandana where the Shahiya king, Anandapal, had established his new capital. The Hindus fought very hard but lost. Again, the temples were destroyed, and innocent citizens slaughtered. Utbi provides an account of the plunder and the prisoners of war


``The Sultan returned in the rear of immense booty, and slaves were so plentiful that they became very cheap and men of respectability in their native land were degraded by becoming slaves of common shopkeepers. But this is the goodness of Allah, who bestows honor on his own religion and degrades infidelity.``

The road was now clear for an assault on the heartland of Hindustan. In December 1018 AD Mahmud crossed the Yamuna, collected 1,000,000 dirhams from Baran (Bulandshahar), and marched to Mahaban in Mathura district. Utbi records


``The infidels...deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed.``

Mathura was the next victim. Mahmud seized five gold idols weighing 89,300 missals and 200 silver idols. According to Utbi, ``The Sultan gave orders that all the temples should be burnt with naptha and fire, and levelled with the ground.`` The pillage of the city continued for 20 days. Mahmud now turned towards Kanauj which had been the seat of several Hindu dynasties. Utbi continues

``In Kanauj there were nearly ten thousand temples... Many of the inhabitants of the place fled in consequence of witnessing the fate of their deaf and dumb idols. Those who did not fly were put to death. The Sultan gave his soldiers leave to plunder and take prisoners.``

The Brahmins of Munj, which was attacked next, fought to the last man after throwing their wives and children into fire. The fate of Asi was sealed when its ruler took fright and fled. According to Utbi, ``.... the Sultan ordered that his five forts should be demolished from their foundations, the inhabitants buried in their ruins, and the soldiers of the garrison plundered, slain and captured``.

Shrawa, the next important place to be invaded, met the same fate. Utbi concludes



``The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshipers of sun and fire. The friends of Allah searched the bodies of the slain for three days in order to obtain booty...The booty amounted in gold and silver, rubies and pearls nearly to three hundred thousand dirhams, and the number of prisoners may be conceived from the fact that each was sold for two to ten dirhams. These were afterwards taken to Ghazni and merchants came from distant cities to purchase them, so that the countries of Mawaraun-Nahr, Iraq and Khurasan were filled with them, and the fair and the dark, the rich and the poor, were commingled in one common slavery.``

Mahmud`s sack of Somnath is too well-known to be retold here. What needs emphasizing is that the fragments of the famous Sivalinga were carried to Ghazni. Some of them were turned into steps of the Jama Masjid in that city. The rest were sent to Mecca, Medina, and Baghdad to be desecrated in the same manner.

Mahmud`s son Masud tried to follow in the footsteps of his father. In 1037 AD he succeeded in sacking the fort of Hansi which was defended very bravely by the Hindus. The Tarikh-us-Subuktigin records

``The Brahmins and other high ranking men were slain, and their women and children were carried away captive, and all the treasure which was found was distributed among the army.``

Masud could not repeat the performance due to his preoccupations elsewhere.

---

MUHAMMAD GHORI AND HIS LEUTENANTS

Invasion of India by Islamic imperialism was renewed by Muhmmad Ghori in the last quarter of the 12th century. After Prithiviraj Chauhan had been defeated in 1192 AD, Ghori took Ajmer by assault.

According the Taj-ul-Ma`sir of Hasan Nizami, ``While the Sultan remained at Ajmer, he destroyed the pillars and foundations of the idol temples and built in their stead mosques and colleges and precepts of Islam, and the customs of the law were divulged and established.``

Next year he defeated Jayachandra of Kanauj. A general massacre, rapine, and pillage followed. The Gahadvad treasuries at Asni and Varanasi were plundered. Hasan Nizami rejoices that ``in Benares which is the centre of the country of Hind, they destroyed one thousand temples and raised mosques on their foundations``.

According to Kamil-ut-Tawarikh of Ibn Asir, ``The slaughter of Hindus (at Varanasi) was immense; none were spared except women and children, and the carnage of men went on until the earth was weary.``

The women and children were spared so that they could be enslaved and sold all over the Islamic world. It may be added that the Buddhist complex at Sarnath was sacked at this time, and the Bhikshus were slaughtered.

Ghori`s lieutenant Qutbuddin Aibak was also busy meanwhile. Hasan Nizami writes that after the suppression of a Hindu revolt at Kol (modern day Aligarh) in 1193 AD, Aibak raised ``three bastions as high as heaven with their heads, and their carcases became food for beasts of prey. The tract was freed from idols and idol worship and the foundations of infidelism were destroyed.``

In 1194 AD Aibak destroyed 27 Hindu temples at Delhi and built the Quwwat-ul-lslam mosque with their debris. According to Nizami, Aibak ``adorned it with the stones and gold obtained from the temples which had been demolished by elephants``.

In 1195 AD the Mher tribe of Ajmer rose in revolt, and the Chaulukyas of Gujarat came to their assistance. Aibak had to invite reinforcements from Ghazni before he could meet the challenge. In 1196 AD he advanced against Anahilwar Patan, the capital of Gujarat. Nizami writes that after Raja Karan was defeated and forced to flee, ``fifty thousand infidels were dispatched to hell by the sword`` and ``more than twenty thousand slaves, and cattle beyond all calculation fell into the hands of the victors``.

The city was sacked, its temples demolished, and its palaces plundered. On his return to Ajmer, Aibak destroyed the Sanskrit College of Visaladeva, and laid the foundations of a mosque which came to be known as `Adhai Din ka Jhompada`.

Conquest of Kalinjar in 1202 AD was Aibak`s crowning achievement. Nizami concludes

``The temples were converted into mosques... Fifty thousand men came under the collar of slavery and the plain became black as pitch with Hindus.``

A free-lance adventurer, Muhammad Bakhtyar Khalji, was moving further east. In 1200 AD he sacked the undefended university town of Odantpuri in Bihar and massacred the Buddhist monks in the monasteries. In 1202 AD he took Nadiya by surprise. Badauni records in his Muntakhab-ut-Tawarikh that ``property and booty beyond computation fell into the hands of the Muslims and Muhammad Bakhtyar having destroyed the places of worship and idol temples of the infidels founded mosques and Khanqahs``.

---

THE SLAVE (MAMLUK) SULTANS

Shamsuddin Iltutmish who succeeded Aibak at Delhi invaded Malwa in 1234 AD. He destroyed an ancient temple at Vidisha. Badauni reports in his `Muntakhab-ut-Tawarikh`


``Having destroyed the idol temple of Ujjain which had been built six hundred years previously, and was called Mahakal, he levelled it to its foundations, and threw down the image of Rai Vikramajit from whom the Hindus reckon their era, and brought certain images of cast molten brass and placed them on the ground in front of the doors of mosques of old Delhi, and ordered the people of trample them under foot.``

Muslim power in India suffered a serious setback after Iltutmish. Balkan had to battle against a revival of Hindu power. The Katehar Rajputs of what came to be known as Rohilkhand in later history, had so far refused to submit to Islamic imperialism. Balkan led an expedition across the Ganges in 1254 AD. According to Badauni,

``In two days after leaving Delhi, he arrived in the midst of the territory of Katihar and put to death every male, even those of eight years of age, and bound the women.``

But in spite of such wanton cruelty, Muslim power continued to decline till the Khaljis revived it after 1290 AD.

---

THE KHALJIS

Jalaluddin Khalji led an expedition to Ranthambhor in 1291 AD. On the way he destroyed Hindu temples at Chain. The broken idols were sent to Delhi to be spread before the gates of the Jama Masjid. His nephew Alauddin led an expedition to Vidisha in 1292 AD. According to Badauni in Muntakhab-ut-Tawarikh, Alauddin ``brought much booty to the Sultan and the idol which was the object of worship of the Hindus, he caused to be cast in front of the Badaun gate to be trampled upon by the people. The services of Alauddin were highly appreciated, the jagir of Oudh (or Avadh - Central U.P.) also was added to his other estates.``

Alauddin became Sultan in 1296 AD after murdering his uncle and father-in-law, Jalaluddin. In 1298 AD he equipped an expedition to Gujarat under his generals Ulugh Khan and Nusrat Khan. The invaders plundered the ports of Surat and Cambay. The temple of Somnath, which had been rebuilt by the Hindus, was plundered and the idol taken to Delhi for being trodden upon by the Muslims. The whole region was subjected to fire and sword, and Hindus were slaughtered en masse. Kampala Devi, the queen of Gujarat, was captured along with the royal treasury, brought to Delhi and forced into Alauddin`s harem. The doings of the Malik Naib during his expedition to South India in 1310-1311 AD have already mentioned in earlier parts.

---

THE TUGHLAQS

Muslim power again suffered a setback after the death of Alauddin Khalji in 1316 AD. But it was soon revived by the Tughlaqs. By now most of the famous temples over the length and breadth of the Islamic occupation in India had been demolished, except in Orissa and Rajasthan which had retained their independence. By now most of the rich treasuries had been plundered and shared between the Islamic state and its swordsmen. Firuz Shah Tughlaq led an expedition to Orissa in 1360 AD. He destroyed the temple of Jagannath at Puri, and desecrated many other Hindu shrines. According to `Sirat-i-Firoz Shahi` which he himself wrote or dictated,

``Allah who is the only true God and has no other emanation, endowed the king of Islam with the strength to destroy this ancient shrine on the eastern sea-coast and to plunge it into the sea, and after its destruction he ordered the image of Jagannath to be perforated, and disgraced it by casting it down on the ground. They dug out other idols which were worshipped by the polytheists in the kingdom of Jajnagar and overthrew them as they did the image of Jagannath, for being laid in front of the mosques along the path of the Sunnis and the way of the `musallis` (Muslim congregation for namaz) and stretched them in front of the portals of every mosque, so that the body and sides of the images might be trampled at the time of ascent and descent, entrance and exit, by the shoes on the feet of the Muslims.``

After the sack of the temples in Orissa, Firoz Shah Tughlaq attacked an island on the sea-coast where ``nearly 100,000 men of Jajnagar had taken refuge with their women, children, kinsmen and relations``. The swordsmen of Islam turned ``the island into a basin of blood by the massacre of the unbelievers``.

A worse fate overtook the Hindu women. Sirat-i-Firuz Shahs records

``Women with babies and pregnant ladies were haltered, manacled, fettered and enchained, and pressed as slaves into service in the house of every soldier.``

Still more horrible scenes were enacted by Firuz Shah Tughlaq at Nagarkot (Kangra) where he sacked the shrine of Jvalamukhi. Firishta records that the Sultan ``broke the idols of Jvalamukhi, mixed their fragments with the flesh of cows and hung them in nose bags round the necks of Brahmins. He sent the principal idol as trophy to Medina.``

---

THE PROVINCIAL MUSLIM SATRAPS

In 1931 AD the Muslims of Gujarat complained to Nasiruddin Muhammad, the Tughlaq Sultan of Delhi, that the local governor, Kurhat-ul-Mulk, was practising tolerance towards the Hindus. The Sultan immediately appointed Muzzaffar Khan as the new Governor. He became independent after the death of the Delhi Sultan and assumed the title of Muzzaffar Shah in 1392 AD. Next year he led an expidition to Somnath and sacked the temple which the Hindus had built once again. He killed many Hindus to chastise them for this ``impudence,`` and raised a mosque on the site of the ancient temple. The Hindus, however, restarted restoring the temple soon after. In 1401 AD Muzaffar came back with a huge army. He again killed many Hindus, demolished the temple once more, and erected another mosque.

Muzaffar was succeeded by his grandson, Ahmad Shah, in 1411 AD. Three years later Ahmad appointed a special darogah to destroy all temples throughout Gujarat. In 1415 AD Ahmad invaded Sidhpur where he destroyed the images in Rudramahalaya, and converted the grand temple into a mosque. Sidhpur was renamed Sayyadpur.

Mahmud Begrha who became the Sultan of Gujarat in 1458 AD was the worst fanatic of this dynasty. One of his vassals was the Mandalika of Junagadh who had never withheld the regular tribute. Yet in 1469 AD Mahmud invaded Junagadh. In reply to the Mandalika`s protests, Mahmud said that he was not interested in money as much as in the spread of Islam. The Mandalika was forcibly converted to Islam and Junagadh was renamed Mustafabad. In 1472 AD Mahmud attacked Dwarka, destroyed the local temples, and plundered the city. Raja Jaya Singh, the ruler of Champaner, and his minister were murdered by Mahmud in cold blood for refusing to embrace Islam after they had been defeated and their country pillaged and plundered. Champaner was renamed Mahmudabad.

Mahmud Khalji of Malwa (1436-69 AD) also destroyed Hindu temples and built mosques on their sites. He heaped many more insults on the Hindus. Ilyas Shah of Bengal (1339-1379 AD) invaded Nepal and destroyed the temple of Svayambhunath at Kathmandu. He also invaded Orissa, demolished many temples, and plundered many places. The Bahmani sultans of Gulbarga and Bidar considered it meritorious to kill a hundred thousand Hindu men, women, and children every year. They demolished and desecrated temples all over South India.

---

AMlR TIMUR

The climax came during the invasion of Timur in 1399 AD. He starts by quoting the Quran in his Tuzk-i-Timuri

``O Prophet, make war upon the infidels and unbelievers, and treat them severely.``

He continues

``My great object in invading Hindustan had been to wage a religious war against the infidel Hindus...[so that] the army of Islam might gain something by plundering the wealth and valuables of the Hindus.`` To start with he stormed the fort of Kator on the border of Kashmir. He ordered his soldiers ``to kill all the men, to make prisoners of women and children, and to plunder and lay waste all their property``. Next, he ``directed towers to be built on the mountain of the skulls of those obstinate unbelievers``. Soon after, he laid siege to Bhatnir defended by Rajputs. They surrendered after some fight, and were pardoned. But Islam did not bind Timur to keep his word given to the ``unbelievers``. His Tuzk-i-Timuri records


``In a short space of time all the people in the fort were put to the sword, and in the course of one hour the heads of 10,000 infidels were cut off. The sword of Islam was washed in the blood of the infidels, and all the goods and effects, the treasure and the grain which for many a long year had been stored in the fort became the spoil of my soldiers. They set fire to the houses and reduced them to ashes, and they razed the buildings and the fort to the ground.``

At Sarsuti, the next city to be sacked, ``all these infidel Hindus were slain, their wives and children were made prisoners and their property and goods became the spoil of the victors``. Timur was now moving through (modern day) Haryana, the land of the Jats. He directed his soldiers to ``plunder and destroy and kill every one whom they met``. And so the soldiers ``plundered every village, killed the men, and carried a number of Hindu prisoners, both male and female``.

Loni which was captured before he arrived at Delhi was predominantly a Hindu town. But some Muslim inhabitants were also taken prisoners. Timur ordered that ``the Musulman prisoners should be separated and saved, but the infidels should all be dispatched to hell with the proselytizing sword``.

By now Timur had captured 100,000 Hindus. As he prepared for battle against the Tughlaq army after crossing the Yamuna, his Amirs advised him ``that on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolators and enemies of Islam at liberty``. Therefore, ``no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword``.

Tuzk-i-Timuri continues


``I proclaimed throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners should put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. One hundred thousand infidels, impious idolators, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiruddin Umar, a counselor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives.``

The Tughlaq army was defeated in the battle that ensued next day. Timur entered Delhi and learnt that a ``great number of Hindus with their wives and children, and goods and valuables, had come into the city from all the country round``.

He directed his soldiers to seize these Hindus and their property. Tuzk-i-Timuri concludes


``Many of them (Hindus) drew their swords and resisted...The flames of strife were thus lighted and spread through the whole city from Jahanpanah and Siri to Old Delhi, burning up all it reached. The Hindus set fire to their houses with their own hands, burned their wives and children in them and rushed into the fight and were killed...On that day, Thursday, and all the night of Friday, nearly 15,000 Turks were engaged in slaying, plundering and destroying. When morning broke on Friday, all my army ...went off to the city and thought of nothing but killing, plundering and making prisoners....The following day, Saturday the 17th, all passed in the same way, and the spoil was so great.that each man secured from fifty to a hundred prisoners, men, women, and children. There was no man who took less than twenty. The other booty was immense in rubies, diamonds, garnets, pearls, and other gems and jewels; ashrafis, tankas of gold and silver of the celebrated Alai coinage

vessels of gold and silver; and brocades and silks of great value. Gold and silver ornaments of Hindu women were obtained in such quantities as to exceed all account. Excepting the quarter of the Saiyids, the Ulama and the other Musulmans, the whole city was sacked.``

---

Destruction of Hindu Temples - Aurangzeb

Background

Islamic literary sources provide far more extensive evidence of temple destruction by the Muslim invaders of India in medieval times. They also cover a large area, from Sinkiang and Transoxiana in the North to Tamil Nadu in the South, and from Siestan province of present day Iran in the West to Assam in the East. This vast area, which was long the cradle of hindu culture, came to be littered with the ruins of temples and monasteries, belonging to all schools of Santana Dharma - Baudhha, Jaina, Shaiva, Sakta, Vaishnava, and the rest. Archeological explorations and excavations in modern times have proved unmistakably that most of the mosques, mazars, ziarats and dargahs which were built in this area, stood on the sites of and were made from the materials of deliberately demolished Hindu monuments.

Hundreds of medieval muslim historians who flourished in India and elsewhere in the world of Islam, have written detailed accounts of what their heroes did in various parts of the extensive Hindu homeland as they were invaded one after another. It is alear from the literary evidence collected alone that all Muslim rulers destroyed or desecrated Hindu temples whenever and whereever they could. Archeological evidence from various Muslim monuments, particularly mosques and dargahs, not only confirms the literary evidence but also adds the names of some Muslim rulers whom Muslim historians have failed to credit with this pious performance.

Some of the literary evidence of temple destruction during Aurangzeb`s rule is listed below.

[Emphasis mine.]

---

1. ``Mir`at-i-Alam`` by Bakhtawar Khan

The author was a nobleman of Aurangzeb`s court. He died in AD 1684. the history ascribed to him was really compiled by Muhammad Baqa of Saharanpur who gave the name of his friend as its author. Baqa was a prolific writer who was invited by Bakhtawar Khan to Aurangzeb`s court and given a respectable rank. He died in AD 1683.

Excerpts:

Muhiyu`d-Din Muhammad Aurangzeb `Alamgir Padshah Ghazi (1658-1707) General Order

`` ...Hindu writers have been entirely excluded from holding public offices, and ALL THE WORSHIPPING PLACES OF THE INFIDELS AND GREAT TEMPLES of these infamous people HAVE BEEN THROWN DOWN AND DESTROYED in a manner which excites astonishment at the successful completion of so difficult a task. His Majesty personally teaches the sacred kalima to many infidels with success. ... All mosques in the empire are repaired at public expense...``

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2. ``Alamgir-Nama`` by Mirza Muhammad Kazim

This work, written in AD 1688 contains a history of the first ten years of Aurangzeb`s reign.

Excerpts:

Muhiyu`d-Din Muhammad Aurangzeb `Alamgir Padshah Ghazi (1658-1707) Palamau (Bihar)

`` ...In 1661 Aurangzeb in his zeal to uphold the law of Islam sent orders to his viceroy in Bihar, Daud Khan, to conquer Palamau. In the military operations that followed MANY TEMPLES WERE DESTROYED...``

Koch Bihar (Bengal)

`` ...Towards the end of the same year when Mir Jumla made a war on the Raja of Kuch Bihar, the MUGHALS DESTROYED MANY TEMPLES during the course of their operations. IDOLS WERE BROKEN AND SOME TEMPLES WERE CONVERTED INTO MOSQUES. ...``

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3. ``Mas`ir-i-`Alamgiri`` by Saqi Must`ad Khan

The author completed this history in 1710 at the behest of Inayatu``llah Khan Kashmiri, Aurangzeb`s last secretary and favorite disciple in state policy and religiosity. The materials which Must`ad Khan used in this history of Aurangzeb`s reign came mostly from the State archives.

Excerpts:

Muhiyu`d-Din Muhammad Aurangzeb `Alamgir Padshah Ghazi (1658-1707) General Order

``...The Lord Cherisher of the faith learnt that in the provinces of Tatta, Multan, and especially at Benaras, the Brahmin misbelievers used to teach their false books in their established schools, and that admirers and students both Hindu and Muslim, used to come from great distances to these misguided men in order to acquire this vile learning. His majesty, eager to establish Islam, issues orders to the governors of all the provinces TO DEMOLISH THE SCHOOLS AND TEMPLES OF THE INFIDELS and with utmost urgency put down the teaching and the public practice of the religion of these misbelievers...``

Varanasi (Uttar Pradesh)

`` ...It was reported that, according to the Emperor`s command, his officers HAD DEMOLISHED THE TEMPLE OF VISHWANATH AT KASHI. ...`` Mathura (Uttar Pradesh)

`` ... During this month of Ramzan abounding in miracles, the Emperor as the promoter of justice and overthrower of mischief, as the knower of truth and destroyer of oppression, as the zephyr of the garden of victory and the reviver of the faith of the Prophet, ISSUED ORDERS FOR THE DEMOLITION OF THE TEMPLE SITUATED IN MATHURA< FAMOUS AS THE DEHRA OF KESHO RAI. In the short time by the great exertions of his officers the DESTRUCTION OF THIS STRONG FOUNDATION OF INFIDELITY WAS ACCOMPLISHED< AND ON ITS SITE A LOFTY MOSQUE WAS BUILT at the expenditure of a large sum...``

`` ...Praised be the August God of the faith of Islam, that in the auspicious reign of this DESTROYER OF INFIDELITY AND TURBULENCE, such a wonderful and seemingly impossible work was successfully accomplished. On seeing this instance of strength of the Emperor`s faith and the grandeur of his devotion to God, the proud Rajas were stifled and in amazement they stood like images facing the wall. THE IDOLS, LARGE AND SMALL< SET WITH COSTLY JEWELS WHIC HAD BEEN SET UP IN THE TEMPLE WERE BROUGHT TO AGRA< AND BURIED UNDER THE STEPS OF THE MOSQUE OF BEGUM SAHIB, IN ORDER TO BE CONTINUALLY TRODDEN UPON. The name of Mathura was changed to Islamabad. ...``

Khandela (Rajasthan)

`` ... Darab Khan who had been sent with a strong force to punish the Rajputs of Khandela and TO DEMOLISH THE GREAT TEMPLE OF THE PLACE, attacked on March 8th/Safar 5th, and slew the three hundred and odd men who made a bold defence, not one of them escaping alive. THE TEMPLES OF KHANDELA AND SANULA AND ALL OTHER TEMPLES IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD WERE DEMOLISHED ...``

Jodhpur (Rajasthan)

`` ... On 24th Rabi S. (Sunday, May 25th), Khan Jahan Bahadur came from Jodhpur, AFTER DEMOLISHING THE TEMPLES and bringing with himself some cart-loads of idols, and had audience of the Emperor, who higly praised him and ordered that the idols, which were mostly jewelled, golden, silver, bronze, copper, or stone, should be cast in the yard (jilaukhanah) of the Court AND UNDER THE STEPS OF THE JAMA MOSQUE, TO BE TRODDEN UPON...``

Udaipur (Rajasthan)

`` ... Ruhullah Khan and Ekkataz Khan WENT TO DEMOLISH THE GREAT TEMPLE in front of the Rana`s palace, which was one of the rarest buildings of the age and the chief cause of the destruction of the life and property of the despised worshippers. Twenty `machator` Rajputs who were sitting in the Temple vowed to give up their lives; first one of them came out to fight, killed some and was them himself slain, then came out another and so on, until every one of the twenty perished, after killing a large number of the imperialists including the trusted slave Ikhlas. The Temple was found empty. THE HEWERS BROKE THE IMAGES. ...``

`` ...On Saturday, the 24th January, 1680 (2nd Muharram), the Emperor went to view lake Udaisagar, constructed by the Rana, AND ORDERED ALL THE THREE TEMPLES ON ITS BANKS TO BE DEMOLISHED. ...``

`` ...On the 29th January/7th Muharram, Hasan Ali Khan brought to the Emperor twenty camel-loads of tents and other things captured from the Rana`s Palace and REPORTED THAT ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-TWO OTHER TEMPLES IN THE ENVIRONS OF UDAIPUR HAD BEEN DESTROYED. The Khan received the title of Bahadur Alamgirshahi...``

Amber (Rajasthan)

``... Abu Turab, who had been SENT TO DEMOLISH THE TEMPLES of AMBER, returned to the Court on Tuesday August 10th (Rajab 24th), and reported that HE HAD PULLED DOWN SIXTY-SIX TEMPLES. ...``

Bijapur (Karnataka)

`` ... Hamiduddin Khan Bahadur WHO HAD GONE TO DEMOLISH A TEMPLE AND BUILD A MOSQUE (IN ITS PLACE) in Bijapur, having excellently carried his orders, came to court and gained praise and the post of darogha of gusulkhanah, which brought him near the Emperor`s person...``

General Text

``...LARGE NUMBERS OF PLACES OF WORSHIP OF THE INFIDELS AND GREAT TEMPLES OF THESE WICKED PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THROWN DOWN AND DESOLATED. Men who can see only the outside of things are filled with wonder at the successful accomplishment of such a seemingly difficult task. AND ON THE SITES OF THE TEMPLES LOFTY MOSQUES HAVE BEEN BUILT...``

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4. ``Akhbarat``

These were reports from different provinces compiled in the reign of Aurangzeb.

Excerpts:

Muhiyu`d-Din Muhammad Aurangzeb `Alamgir Padshah Ghazi (1658-1707)

Mathura (Uttar Pradesh)

`` ... The emporer learning that in the temple of Keshav Rai at Mathura there was a stone railing presented by Dara Shikoh, remarked, `In the Muslim faith it is a sin even to look at a temple, and this Dara Shikoh had restored a railing in a temple. This fact is not creditable to the Muhammadans. REMOVE THE RAILING.` By his order Abdun Nabi Khan (the faujdar of Mathura) REMOVED IT...``

Ujjain (Madhya Pradesh)

`` ... News came from Malwa that Wazir Khan had sent Gada Beg, a slave, with 400 troopers, TO DESTROY ALL TEMPLES AROUND UJJAIN... A Rawat of the place resisted and slew Gada Beg with 121 of his men...``

Aurangabad (Maharashtra)

``...... The Emperor learnt from a secret news writer of Delhi that in Jaisinghpura Bairagis used to worship idols, and that the Censor on hearing of it had gone there, arrested Sri Krishna Bairagis and taken him with 15 idols away to his house; then the Rajputs had assembled, flocked to the Censor`s house, wounded three footmen of the Censor and tried to seize the Censor himself; so that the latter set the Bairagis free and sent the copper idols to the local subahdar ...``

Pandharpur (Maharashtra)

``... The Emperor, summoning Muhammad Khalil and Khidmat Rai, the darogha of hatchet-men .... ORDERED THEM TO DEMOLISH THE TEMPLE OF PANDHARPUR, and to take the butchers of the camp there AND SLAUGHTER COWS IN THE TEMPLE ... It was done...``

On Way to the Deccan

`` ... When the war with the Rajputs was over, Aurangzeb decided to leave for the Deccan. His march seems to have been marked with A DESTRUCTION TO MANY TEMPLES on the way. On May 21, 1681, the superintendent of the labourers WAS ORDERED TO DESTROY ALL THE TEMPLES on the route...``

Lakheri ( ? - means the place is not traceable today )

`` ... On 27 Sept., 1681, the emperor issued orders FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLES at Lakheri...``

Rasulpur( ? )

``... About this time, April 14, 1692, orders were issued to the provincial governor and the district faujdar TO DEMOLISH THE TEMPLES at Rasulpur...``

Sheogaon ( ? )

`` ... Sankar, a messenger, was sent TO DEMOLISH A TEMPLE near Sheogaon..``

Ajmer (Rajasthan)

``... Bijai Singh and several other Hindus were reported to be carrying on public worship of idols in a temple in the neighborhood of Ajmer. On 23 June, 1694, THE GOVERNER OF AJMER WAS ORDERED TO DESTROY THE TEMPLE and stop the public adoration of idol worship there...``

Wakenkhera ( ? )

`` ... The TEMPLE OF WAKENKHERA IN THE FORT WAS DEMOLISHED ON 2 MARCH, 1705. ...``

Bhagwant Garh (Rajasthan)

``... The newswriter of Ranthambore REPORTED THE DESTRUCTION OF A TEMPLE IN PARGANAH BHAGWANT GARH. Gaj Singh Gor had repaired the temple and made some additions thereto...``

Malpura (Rajasthan)

`` ... Royal orders FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF TEMPLES IN MALPURA TODA were received and the officers were assigned for this work...``

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5. ``Fathiyya-i-`Ibriyya``

This is a diary of Mir Jumla`s campaigns in Kuch Bihar and Assam. ``By looting,`` writes Jadunath Sarkar, ``the temples of the South and hunting out buried treasures, Mir Jumla amassed a vast fortune. The huge Hindu idols of copper were brought away in large numbers to be melted and cast into cannon. ...``

Excerpts:

Muhiyu`d-Din Muhammad Aurangzeb `Alamgir Padshah Ghazi (AD 1658-1707)

Koch Bihar (Bengal)

`` ... Mir Jumla made his way into Kuch Bihar by an obscure and neglected highway. .... In six days the Mughal Army reached the capital (19th December) which had been deserted by the Rajah and his people in terror. The name of the town was changed to Alamgirnagar; the muslim call to prayer, so long forbidden in the city, was chanted from the lofty roof of the palace, and a mosque was built by DEMOLISHING THE PRINCIPLE TEMPLE...``

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6. ``Kalimat-i-Tayyibat`` by `Inayatullah

This is a collection of letters and orders of Aurangzeb compiled by `Inayatullah in AD 1719 and covers the years 1699-1704 of Aurangzeb`s reign.

Muhiyu`d-Din Muhammad Aurangzeb `Alamgir Padshah Ghazi (AD 1658-1707)

Somnath (Gujarat)

``... The TEMPLE OF SOMNATH WAS DEMOLISHED early in my reign and idol worship (there) put down. It is not known what the state of things there is at present. If the idolators have again taken to the worship of images at the place, THEN DESTROY THE TEMPLE IN SUCH A WAY THAT NO TRACE OF THE BUILDING MAY BE LEFT, and also expel them (the worshippers) from the place. ...``

Satara (Maharashtra)

``... The village of Sattara near Aurangabad was my hunting ground. Here on the top of the hill, STOOD A TEMPLE WITH AN IMAGE OF KHANDE RAI. BY GOD`S GRACE I DEMOLISHED IT, AND FORBADE THE TEMPLE DANCERS (muralis) to ply their shameful profession...``

General Observation ``... THE DEMOLITION OF A TEMPLE IS POSSIBLE AT ANY TIME, as it cannot walk away from its place. ...``

Sirhind (Punjab)

``... In a small village in the sarkar of Sirhind, A SIKH TEMPLE WAS DEMOLISHED AND CONVERTED INTO A MOSQUE. An imam was appointed who was subsequently killed. ...``

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7. ``Ganj-i-Arshadi``

It is a contemporary account of the destruction of Hindu temples at Varanasi in the reign of Aurangzeb.

Excerpts:

Muhiyu`d-Din Muhammad Aurangzeb `Alamgir Padshah Ghazi (AD 1658-1707)

Varanasi (Uttar Pradesh)

``... The infidels demolished a mosque that was under construction and wounded the artisans. When the news reached Shah Yasin, he came to Banaras from Mandyawa and collecting the Muslim weavers, DEMOLISHED THE BIG TEMPLE. A Sayyid who was an artisan by profession agreed with one Abdul Rasul to build a mosque at Banaras and accordingly the foundation was laid. Near the place there was a temple and many houses belonging to it were in the occupation of the Rajputs. The infidels decided that the construction of a mosque in the locality was not proper and that it should be razed to the ground. At night the walls of the mosque were found demolished. next day the wall was rebuilt but it was again destroyed. This happened three or four times. At last the Sayyid his himself in the corner. With the advent of night the infidels came to achieve their nefarious purpose. When Abdul Rasul gave the alarm, the infidels began to fight and the Sayyid was wounded by the Rajputs. In the meantime, the Musalman residents of the neighborhood arrived at the spot and the infidels took to their heels. The wounded muslims were taken to Shah Yasin who determined to vindicate the cause of Islam. When he came to the mosque, people collected from the neighborhood. the civil officers were outwardly inclined to side with the saint, but in reality they were afraid of the Royal displeasure on the account of the Raja, who was a courtier of the Emperor and had built the temple (near which the mosque was under construction). Shah Yasin, however, took up the sword and started for Jihad. The civil officers sent him a message that such a grave step should not be taken without the Emperor`s permission. Shah Yasin, paying no heed, sallied forth till he reached Bazar Chau Khamba through a fusillade of stones ...... THE DOORS (OF TEMPLES) WERE FORCED OPEN AND THE IDOLS THROWN DOWN. THE WEAVERS AND OTHER MUSALMANS DEMOLISHED ABOUT 500 TEMPLES. They desired to destroy the temple of Beni Madho, but as lanes were barricaded, they desisted from going further....``

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8. ``Kalimat-i-Aurangzeb`` by `Inayatullah

This is another compilation of letters and orders by `Inayatu`llah covering the years 1703-06 of Aurangzeb`s reign.

Muhiyu`d-Din Muhammad Aurangzeb `Alamgir Padshah Ghazi (AD 1658-1707) Maharashtra

``...The houses of this country (Maharashtra) are exceedingly strong and built solely of stone and iron. The hatchet-men of the Govt. in the course of my marching do not get sufficient strength and power (i.e. time) TO DESTROY AND RAZE THE TEMPLES OF THE INFIDELS that meet the eye on the way. You should appoint an orthodox inspector (darogha) who may afterwards DESTROY THEM AT LEISURE AND DIG UP THEIR FOUNDATIONS...``

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9. ``Muraq`at-i-Abu`I Hasan`` by Maulana Abu`l Hasan

This is a collection of records and documents compiled by (the above named author) one of Aurangzeb`s officers in Bengal and Orissa during AD 1655-67.

Excerpts:

Muhiyu`d-Din Muhammad Aurangzeb `Alamgir Padshah Ghazi (AD 1658-1707)

Bengal and Orissa

``...Order issued on all faujdars of thanas, civil officers (mutasaddis), agents of jagirdars, kroris, and amlas from Katak to Medinipur on the frontier of Orissa

- The imperial paymaster Asad Khan has sent a letter written by order of the Emperor, to say, that the Emperor learning from the newsletters of the province of Orissa that at the village of Tilkuti in Medinipur a temple has been (newly) built, HAS ISSUED HIS AUGUST MANDATE FOR ITS DESTRUCTION, and THE DESTRUCTION OF ALL TEMPLES BUILT ANYWHERE IN THIS PROVINCE BY THE WORTHLESS INFIDELS. Therefore, you are commanded with extreme urgency that immediately on the receipt of this letter YOU SHOULD DESTROY THE ABOVE MENTIONED TEMPLES. EVERY IDOL-HOUSE BUILT DURING THE LAST 10 or 12 YEARS, WHETHER WITH BRICK OR CLAY, SHOULD BE DEMOLISHED WITHOUT DELAY. ALSO, DO NOT ALLOW THE CRUSHED HINDUS AND DESPICABLE INFIDELS TO REPAIR THEIR OLD TEMPLES. REPORTS OF THE DESTRUCTION OF TEMPLES SHOULD BE SENT TO THE COURT UNDER THE SEAL OF THE QAZIS and attested by PIOUS SHAIKHS...``

10. ``Futuhat-i-Alamgiri`` by Ishwardas Nagar

The author was a Brahman from Gujarat, born around AD 1654. Till the age of thirty he was in the service of the Chief Qazi of the empire under Aurangzeb. Later on, he took up a post under Shujat Khan, the governor of Gujarat, who appointed him Amin in the pargana of Jodhpur. His history covers almost half a century of Aurangzeb`s reign, from 1657 to 1700. There is nothing in his style which may mark him out as a Hindu.

Excerpts:

Muhiyu`d-Din Muhammad Aurangzeb `Alamgir Padshah Ghazi (AD 1658-1707)

Mathura (Uttar Pradesh)

`` ... When the imperial army was encamping at Mathura, a holy city of the Hindus, the state of affairs with regard to temples of Mathura was brought to the notice of His Majesty. Thus, HE ORDERED THE FAUJDAR OF THE CITY, ABDUL NABI KHAN, TO RAZE TO THE GROUND EVERY TEMPLE AND TO CONSTRUCT BIG MOSQUES (over their demolished sites)...``

Udaipur (Rajasthan)

``... The Emperor, within a short time, reached Udaipur AND DESTROYED THE GATE OF DEHBARI, THE PALACES OF RANA AND THE TEMPLES OF UDAIPUR. Apart from it, the trees of his gardens were also destroyed...``

Siddiqua #100

The partition of the country in 1947 was a major event. It became possible because a large number of factors came together. As such, neither Mr. Jinnah was omnipotent, nor can Pakistan be described as just a product of religious hatred. No doubt, Jinnah was very smart, and the Pakistan movement deftly played the card of religious hatred to the hilt, but neither of these two considerations alone, or even together, could have led to the division. The prominence given to these two factors by Pakistanis and Indians appears to be the consequence of the tragic genocidal aftermath of the partition, and the very quick ascent of Islamic thakaydarri mentality in Pakistani civil/military discourse, post 1960s.

For me, this viewpoint became easier to accept when I considered that even someone like Faiz left for Pakistan. Perhaps the great man had many moments of repentance, but he did leave. And he could not lave left because he was swept off his feet by Mr. Jinnah or out of religous bigotry. The same was the case with many other progressives and leftists who decided to emigrate to Pakistan at that time.


In the north, where Musulmaans came as conquerors, and in the south, where they came mainly as traders.

True, but on chowk we are not given to making fine grained statements. For Muslims, Islam came in peace spreading light, through Sufis; for Hindus, it came on the horseback brandishing bloodied sword :)

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100
//...That Pakistan is a product of religious ``hatred`` has not been establlished so far...//

Well - there has to be some kind of hatred there. Otherwise people just don`t wake up one fine morning and want to create a new country. Jinna, Eqbal and the gang would have something going in their heads - right?

[Hope this don`t start another round on Jinnah :) The bullsh!t from YLH is going to kill me this time]

``The history of communal violence in India, communal violence meaning civil strife between Hindus and Muslims is fairly recent. So far as I know, the first recorded such incident took place in 1929. [I`m open to correction, as always.``]

Agreed, although sporadic riots (like mopla riots in the south in the 20s) did take place. In fact, this is what I was hinting at when I said in my post ``I am writing this to you because you belong to an earlier generation which presumably had the actual experience of living with the `enemy` and know that he was not as big a monster as he is sometimes made out to be in the textbooks now found in many of your schools``. Especially in Panjab, the two communities had lived a peaceful, if not always brotherly, coexistence.

The point I was driving at, is that if the hindus and sikhs had stayed on in Panjab, they would have continued to coexist peacefully and the newly imported parties of political islam would not have found a fertile soil for their growth. Can you imagine the passage of the objective resolution in the presence of an influential hindu-sikh body, Jinnah or no Jinnah? It is worth recalling that the only EFFective opposition to the resolution came from East Pakistan which at that time still had an influential hindu population. Once the Objective Resolution was passed, it was inevitable that the sharia courts, the huddood and blasphemy laws would follow. And if the civil society in Pakistan is indeed against political islam, and I am not certain that it is, it has to work towards the abrogation of the objective resolution which is perhaps the major cause of the ascendancy of the mullah-philosophy both within and without the MMA.

#98 ijaz_gul

I am just me, as defined in my profile. And thank you for your kind words.

__


#99 dost_mittar

That Pakistan is a product of religious ``hatred`` has not been establlished so far. If you have in mind the communal riots that preceeded and accompanied the partition, they were an engineered phenomenon, and self-serving criminals from either side were responsible for them, not the two major communities of British India as self-conscious collectives.

Yes, I use the term self-serving criminals advisedly, with full responsibility. And yes, the communal carnage did serve as a catalyst for the British to hasten their exit. This violence was a trap designed for the British, and they fell for it hook, line and sinker.

The history of communal violence in India, communal violence meaning civil strife between Hindus and Muslims is fairly recent. So far as I know, the first recorded such incident took place in 1929. [I`m open to correction, as always.] The first Shia-Sunni violence took place in 1936.

Hindus and Musulmaans had co-existed peacefully in the sub-continent for centuriies. In the north, where Musulmaans came as conquerors, and in the south, where they came mainly as traders. Even in the days of such barbaric rulers as Alla`aldin Khilji [aka Alla`aldin Jahaansoz] and such bigoted misanthropes as Aurangzaib, communal violence doesn`t seemed to have reared its ugly head.

It is an interesting fact that apart from the All India Muslim League, most of the Muslim parties in India - chief among them the Jama`at Islami and the Jamiat Ulemai Hind, were against the concept and creatiion of Pakistan.

Even more interesting is their migration to Pakistan after partition, and arrogating to themselves the thaykaydaari of Islam here.

Sociologists, historians, political scientists and a host of other different whatnots have been engaged in hair-splitting about Pakistan`s dilemma for over half-a-century now. For a simple person like me, things are rather simple and quite self-evident.

The mullah has arrogated to himself the right to decide how I should behave, and how the society I live and work in should order itself.

So far as Islam, the Prophet of Islam and the Qura`an is concerned, NO ONE has this right.

teshah#90:
Pakistan could have become all that you say it could if it had retained its original inhabitants regardless of their religious identities. When a nation starts out with religious hatred, the fervour that accompanies that process is not easy to overcome. So, when the ``main enemy` was removed, new enemies came in, in the form of ahmedis, shias, christians, etc.
I think that your president is the first Pakistani leader who is trying to reverse this process and reduce the role of religion in society, even though he sometimes makes tactical compromises with the very forces he considers dangerous. He deserves your support despite the fact that he usurped power through illegitimate means and continues to use illegitimate means to stay in power. If he doesn`t succeed, twaada, saada, sab da rab raakha!
P.S. I am writing this to you because you belong to an earlier generation which presumably had the actual experience of living with the `enemy` and know that he was not as big a monster as he is sometimes made out to be in the textbooks now found in many of your schools.

HEx#78

[Pakistani Army has just one mandate: defense]

There is no such mandate. Pakistani army has always created its own mandate as it thought fit. Its policy with respect to both, India and Pakistani people, has never been of defense.

Ralph

The fact that very little is known about Dr. Mubarak Ali is just a manifestation of the stranglehold that the so-called Islamists have on the mass media in Pakistan.

Of late, the English press in Pakistan has off and on been asking him to review books, and he has been getting some sunshine. Otherwise, apart from people who already subscribe to a certain worldview, he was little known in Pakistan.

Running a search on google, and www.alltheweb.com, with the exact phrase box checked on the latter might yield some paydirt. You might not see the checkbox on allthe web, in that case click the customize preferences link.