Employment Equity in India’s Private Sector

Dost Mittar,
In reply to your following statement:
Netizen#1
``This quota system is a bane of the Indian society.``
I am not recommending a quota system, merely an end to systemic barriers and a better access for the underprivileged sections of the society.

Thats a tricky suggestion. I did read your article where you have given a long list of ``to do`` things. Thats nothing but adding another layer of red-tapism.

I acknowledge your concern for the weaker sections of the society. I too want my fellow Indians to prosper, thats how the entire economy will fluorish. But the approach taken by the Gov. of Maharashtra and suggested by Dr. Singh is not the right one. You must be aware of the bill passed by Maharashtra Gov. which was going to give around 30-40% reservation to the backward class. The industries threatened to pull out of the state. Hence the Go Mah. decided to wait for the centre to pass such a bill.
Hence, it is nothing but a quota system.
I was so puzzled by Dr. Singh asking the industry to fulfill its ``social`` responsibility. I wonder whether he has said the same thing to his cabinet ministers, some of whom are hardcore criminals and others corrupt. Half of Indian MPs are involved in criminal cases. What kind of service (social/educational/sports) are they responsible for? Instead of making fool of himself he should ensure that people get education, health and equal opportunites.
You must have heard of ``Jaisa raja waisi praja``, and look at the political spectrum. Other than the commies and to some extent BJP all other parties are run by families. They allege about nepotism at workplace. What about all these regional parties which are run by particular families like businesses houses.
What capability Sonia had to become Prime Minister. Her only qualification was that she was a widow of Rajiv/daughter-in-law of Indra. Isn`t this nepotism. Laloo gifts his gaddi to Rabri before going to jail. Paswan bringing his brother in the political arena. ...
And these shameless people have got courage to point fingers at others.

This mad scramble for jobs is because there aren`t enough of them. So why doesn`t Singh et al work to bring in more jobs rather than create bloodshed for few of them?

Jai Hind

In reply to #42 Urstruly:
Dude,
It seems your statements about Sikhs are based on your experience with the few Khalistanis still around :)
Sikhs (Punjab) prospered long time ago because of the Green Revolution. Infact a lot of Sikh immigrants from West Punjab are rich landlords in Uttaranchal. They were given large tracts of lands to settle in/around Dehradun after partition.
In bureaucracy and military too they are not behind. It is estimated that they constitute around 10% of the 1 million Indian Army. Infact theirs is the only religion based regiment, the Sikh Regiment. The only Air Field Marshal is a Sikh. They have numerous Param Vir Chakra, the highest gallantry award in the face of the enemy. And if everything goes fine, then the Indian army will have its first Sikh Army Chief sometime in Nov.
There are many Sikhs in bureaucracy too. Navtej Sarna, M.S. Singh ( Election comi.), few of them were Mumbai Police Commisioners ( for a very short time though)...
Hence, even though they constitute 2% they have been successful in many different walks of indian life.

Jai Hind

Ref masanamuthu #49

[Harimau sir,

I think you have a colored idea abt reservation (affirmative action) in TN.. If you observe the medical admission results over the last few years (cutoff marks out of 300), you`ll find that there is no real difference between the OC/BC (99/98 %), a slight difference with the MBC (95/96 %). Even the lowest ranked SC candidate would have scored 270/300 .. i.e. 90%.. which is a relly good score.]

There IS a difference. We have the choice of the State Board, the Central Board, the Senior Cambridge Examinations, etc., so that the student or his parents have a choice of curricula. Most of the Maasanamuthus and Sangilikkaruppans of Tamil Nadu take the State Board knowing it is the easiest.

[All this talk abt the incompetent doctors is BS... reservations are practised only for admissions, and every doctor should come through the rigorous qualifying examinations and residency..]

I suppose that is why Murasoli Maran spent 10 months (and the government`s money) in a hospital in Houston, TX. By the way, his own daughter Anbukkarasi (literally, Love Queen... I keep telling you Chowkies this is the commonest name for females among the Maasanamuthus, this woman would have been named Karuppayee in an earlier generation) is a doctor, so he must have first-hand knowledge about exactly what qualifications are needed to become a doctor in Tamil Nadu. I have no information whether Dr. Love Queen actually graduated first in the University as Lalloo Prasad Yadav`s daughter did in Bihar.

Just last week, Stalin left for the US ostensibly to visit his daughter but also to get a medical check-up, having been rushed a few days earlier to Apollo Hospital in Chennai at 9 pm with chest pains.

And of course your own Great Intellectual Elder Brother was treated for cancer in the US, MGR underwent treatment in Maryland, and the Fund of Compassion gets his medical check-ups in the US too.

As gujju asked on Chowk once, why can`t all these ardent supporters of affirmative action get treated by the doctors that they have produced?

[reservations are used to boost the chances of a historically underprivileged group of ppl.. to make a level playing field.. Right now we dont have a universal education of the same quality available to all the kids..]

I went to a Tamil-medium ``private`` school where the tuition was all of Rs. 3 a month till the 8th grade and Rs. 7 thereafter. And to ease the burden on large families, the school waived the tuition for the third child if three brothers were in school at the same time. A few years later, the state made secondary education free and paid the school the loss in revenues so the same education I received was available to all and sundry. So stop your baloney about lack of quality education.

The lack of quality education came about because Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion insisted on Tamil medium schools. Private schools went to court defending their right to teach as they saw fit and were upheld. If nothing else, Christian missionary schools could claim minority discrimination. Once people saw how The Fund of Compassion was ``Maasanamuthizing`` the entire education system and the bureaucracy, they realized that their only escape route was to Bombay, Calcutta or Delhi for jobs or outside the country. So most parents put their children in private English-medium schools, the state retaliated by not paying the tuition fee for these kids, the private schools charged an arm and a leg and paid their teachers better, and thus a quality differential developed.

[I just read that TN surpassed Karnataka to be the leading state in getting the most FDI for the last year.. and both the states are heavy promoters of reservation/affirmative action in education...]

That has nothing to do with affirmative action. Tamil Nadu has 260+ engineering colleges and Karnataka has 100+. (No errors in those numbers.) With a large number of code coolies coming out of these colleges, FDI investment will definitely come to these two states and not go to Orissa or Mizoram. Or Kashmir. (Urstruly, go pop an artery).

In case you didn`t know this, Tamil-medium education is NOT the requirement for a call center job.

[The unfortunate result is the hogging of all the benefits by the creamy layer in the underprivileged groups.]

You talk about the ``creamy layer`` of a few Chettiars or Kallans getting the professional education and not the Pallans and Paraiahs. I look at Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion and Murasoli ``Drumbeat`` Maran accumulating more than $2 billion in the last 40 years after being born to devadasi families in remote Tirukkuvalai village in Tanjore district. Well, at least no Pakistani can ask: how about those poor devadasis and the atrocious treatment they receive from uppercastemen?

[Reservations in jobs is not a good idea though.. Jobs need to be earned on merit..]

What? I thought jobs need to be earned on the basis of names like Love Queen and Tamil King, just like professional education is.

[I find your obsession with ``Karunanidhi`` amusing.. ]

On the other hand, I find your voting for him amusing.

[Atleast he can claim to build a casteless, egalitarian society by having relatives in all the castes.]

As a son of devadasi, he wants to improve his gene pool legitimately no matter how much his gene pool has diversified because of illegitimate births! I think we need to run DNA analysis on the Fund of Compassion and his siblings to see if they were all fathered by the same man.

[Infact he has a pakistani relative too.. Murasoli maran`s daughter married a paki. doctor i think.. ]

No chance of that happening without Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion beating the drums about his egalitarianism, like he talked about his Dalit daughter-in-law. There is SOME line that even Karunanidhi won`t cross and that line is marrying a Muslim.

You can google Dr. Anbukkarasi to see who her (current) husband is but I am afraid there being about 10 million Love Queens in Tamil Nadu, Google will be overwhelmed by your search.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ref masanamuthu #49

I do appreciate your sense of humor in choosing your handle on Chowk. It is far more honest than that fraud Soysauce who wouldn`t have been able to identify soysauce if it was poured over his head before he left India and whose preferred food remains goat meat in curry sauce. However, I would like to know the answers to a couple of questions.

1) Your real name is:

a) Tamil Arasan (King)

b) Tamil Kudimagan (Citizen)

c) Tamil Mani (Jewel)

d) Anbarasan (Love King)

e) Nedunchezhiyan.


2) Your father`s name is:

a) Ezhumalai

b) Arumugam

c) Muthukaruppan

d) Ramasami

e) Dandayuthapani.

Thanks. (Grin)

Gandiv#57
Thanks for pointing this out. The following extract relates to sadna`s comments.

sadna#33:
`` The way you and your friends here rail against `banias`, it is surprising to hear you people talking so piously of caste discrimination.``

I remember pointing out to someone at chowk that both Mahatma Gandhi and Prophet Mohammad were banias, one by birth and the other by profession. But `bania` has developed certain other meanings, especially in Pakistan and at chowk where all hindus are called banias. I might have been guilty of using it in that sense. This should be avoided.

I generally agree with the rest of your post. This article may be considered a step-up from your suggestionthat `` 3) legislate aggressively against discrimination by employers to the extent of making it a general social and political cause of `equality of opportunity`.``

rajsinghi#55:
``Can you tell us anytime in the history of independent India when it did not have economic relations with the rest of the world?``

Rather than answering your question, let me concede the point and let you remain under the illusion that India was indeed integrated to the world economy all along!

``While at it, do tell us, how there is full privatisation, which you are recommending for India, in the so called capitalist country US when only recently, US govt has pumped billions of dollars in US airlines after 9/11? US is not alone but other developed economies too have done the same.``

By privatisation I mean that the govt. should leave commercial enterprise in the private sector AS FAR AS POSSIBLE. In Canada, all attempts by the federal govt. to prop up first the Canadian Airlines and then Air Canada failed. Finally, Air Canada has come out of the bankruptcy proceedings only when airline employees and others were prepared to accept the pain. I know. My Air Canada shares are worthless now. I am not too sure how successful the US attempt at bailing out some airlines will be. On the other hand, US West and other budget airlines are showing how to make a profit without govt. subsidies. Back in India, Jet Airways, Sahara and Air Deccan are making money while providing better service than Indian Airlines which I believe still receives govt. subsidies. And Air India, which used to make huge profits while private, now is in such bad shape that no one is willing to bid for it despite its monopoly over lucrative routes. Can you imagine any private airline diverting from commercial traffic to take religious pilgrims subsidised by the govt.?

``When are we/you willing to come to the real world? That is, if we are willing to. How Canada and many European countries are egaltarian? While at it, do give names also of those many countries, as this will make things more easy.``

Almost all european countries, even post-thatcher Britain, are egalitarian to some extent, since they use their taxes and expenditures to provide a safety net to the poor.

Re, the European Commissioner, an egalitarian society need not be secular. In fact, islamic sharia too has seeds of an egalitarian society.

ankit#56:
You may be a part of an India which has moved beyond divisions of caste, religion and region. But this is still a small, though growing, part of the whole country. Caste sways a massive control on the masses, this is why the caste-based parties are so successful and this is why caste plays such a dominant role in the distribution of tickets by the mainline parties.

Dost Mittar

Post#45

Quote:

`` I am content with the general meaning of globalisation which means that India is integrated witht the rest of the world in terms of economics. ``

I had left the matter and said so too...but, when I see feeble attempts and supposed definitions like these, one has to say, either be honest enough to take things through or leave it when opportunity is given or is there..

Can you tell us anytime in the history of independent India when it did not have economic relations with the rest of the world? What do you mean by integrated? Was India not importing or exporting and doing both in all these years? How or when India has been isolated from rest of the world, even when one takes into consideration the period when US had put sanctions? Has India`s economy been isolated from rest of the economy of the wrold? If it has, how so?

While at it, do tell us, how there is full privatisation, which you are recommending for India, in the so called capitalist country US when only recently, US govt has pumped billions of dollars in US airlines after 9/11? US is not alone but other developed economies too have done the same.

Quote:

`` Canada and many european countries may be considered as egalitarian societies, despite a flourishing free enterprise. ``

When are we/you willing to come to the real world? That is, if we are willing to. How Canada and many European countries are egaltarian? While at it, do give names also of those many countries, as this will make things more easy.

Oh, by the way, tomorrow, there is some election/s on some European Commissoner who has said words to the effect...Womens` place is in the kitchen, refugees belong to camps and some more like that. European Commission has not withdrawn his canditature and inspite of all the uproar, that candidate too has not withdrawn himself and nor has he apologised, as such...So your telling us which are those many egaltarian countries would assist in understanding things better...

Do you know that attempts are being made to throw in Christianity in the Constitution of Europe? Does that smack of egaltarian society/country? Sure, it has not so far as there is fight going on but, ........

This whole plan is nothing but a truckload of sh!t....I am sorry DM sahab, but it is.

I dont know the caste of most of my friends and I dont want to know. And for God`s sake, at least in the younger generation of India there is not grand conspiracy against the so called backward castes. So for a start the buddhe log of India should stop putting their hateful baggage of the caste system on the younger generation.

The only people I can identify with some semblance of caste are those who came to the our institute through the quota. It so happened that there was really a large gap between the academic performance between the quota ppl and others. And guess what, most quota ppl are from very well to do families. In fact they could afford all the costly engineering books since they got book grants in addition to exemptions from fees; I regularly borrowed it from one of those people.

In essence this quota system is nothing but a mechanism for the worthless politicians of our country to put a lid on their immense failure to provide a credible educational and social system. It does little good for anyone except those thugs who want to creat a vote bank.

DM sahab! You dont need to do these cheap things; you are not into electoral politics, are you?

dost-mittar,

Some of the comments attributed to me aren`t really mine!
Please check your replies when you post back.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Urstruly#42:
Muslims are at present excluded from the caste-based reservations.
It is erroneous to presume that muslims are a homogeneous group. Ismailis, bohra, memons, ashrafs, etc. are at par with the upper caste hindus and sometimes even better. I dont think that the muslims in south india, maharashtra or gujarat are particularly disadvantaged (economically speaking!). The major problem is in UP and other urdu-speaking areas where the salaried/professional class migrated to Pakistan and what is left are primarily aritsans and unskilled, uneducated muslims. I would be in favour of including these groups among the other backward caste category.

rajsinghi#45:
``I did ask in my post what do you mean by globalisation, and complete privatisation?``
I am content with the general meaning of globalisation which means that India is integrated witht the rest of the world in terms of economics.

``But then, like any other good intention/idea has some lacunae which some exploit for their own benefit that does not mean idea is not to be executed/implemented. So in principle, yes``
All one can do when developing a program is to design it in such a way as to minimise the unintended abuses, knowing fully well that some abuses will take place in any event.

kaurasach#46:
`` ``Egalitarian`` - words like these are found in socialist and communist literatures and ideologies. In real and natural world, there is no such thing.``

Actually, there is. Canada and many european countries may be considered as egalitarian societies, despite a flourishing free enterprise.

``Many refugees that came from W Punjab - penniless and destitutes have triumphed and surpassed the natives in E Punjab. They did not ask for or recieve any special treatment. ..A penniless illegal Chinese triumphs while a black with aid never succeeds.``

This is because both these groups have/had a strong culture of education and enterprise. We are talking about an underclass where this culture has yet to take roots.

``Blacks have not been successful despite aids because they are now addicted to begging.``
All studies show that blacks have made significant progress since the 1964 Affirmative Action Act passed by the US Congress.

Some of my responses vanished when I tried to post them due to server problems. I`ll try to recreate them:
Gandiv#29:
``By the same logic, since Muslims ruled for half a millenium there should be non-muslim reservation in cultural heritage and preservation as non-muslims were the ones who suffered the most.``

That disadvantage to non-muslims disappeared after almost 60 years of rule in which the majority is overwhelming non-muslim.

``You cannot afford to snatch a bread from the hard wroking call-center employee and gift it to union leaders on the name of equity. It has to be earned the hard way.``

For all we know, the union leader too could be from upper castes. As far as I know, the primary qualification for a call centre employee is the ability to communicate in good english; this is what should come first.

`` The way you and your friends here rail against `banias`, it is surprising to hear you people talking so piously of caste discrimination.``

I remember pointing out to someone at chowk that both Mahatma Gandhi and Prophet Mohammad were banias, one by birth and the other by profession. But `bania` has developed certain other meanings, especially in Pakistan and at chowk where all hindus are called banias. I might have been guilty of using it in that sense. This should be avoided.

I generally agree with the rest of your post. This article may be considered a step-up from your suggestionthat `` 3) legislate aggressively against discrimination by employers to the extent of making it a general social and political cause of `equality of opportunity`.``

``Nepotism would work only at the highest level for e.g. Dhirbhai hiring his two sons.``
I am not sure that this is the case. It works at all levels. Even someone recruiting a clerk could give preference to some 2nd cousin.

``1.) what are traditional recruitment methods? I will point you the same method used in western countries.``

An example of a traditional/informal method is someone on the inside telling someone on the outside about a vacant job and the job being filled without anyone else knowing about it. And yes, the same happens in the western countries as well.

``2.) What are formal methods?``
I will not insult you by answering this question.

``3.) What is ``discrimination penalty``?``
When an employer/recruiter is willing to hire a less competent worker because of a person`s race, religion, gender, caste, etc., he is in fact paying a penalty for his prejudices.

``4.) What do you mean by ``greater efficiencies``? A company being efficient in its output or being efficient in hiring SBCs/OBCs?``
The former.

Romair$35:
``Private enterprise, in any country, has to be allowed to operate freely. At least in terms of hiring and firing. ``
In most countries, employers are not allowed to operate completely freely, at least in matters of hiring and working conditions.

``So let higher education be completely free for poor students and then let the market decide whom it wants to hire and not hire.``

College education has been practically free in India. But the main (not all!) beneficiaries are uppercaste people from lower middle class families which place a high value on education and had friends/relatives with some ``approach``.

anil#37:
What you suggest is complementary, not a substitute, for what I am proposing.

``Personally, I think you have misused the word ``Equity``. In capitalism this term carries an element of risk whenever deployed and not security or safety as that the term ``Job`` implies.``

Are you still into stocks, anilji?

rahul_capri#40:
You make some valid observations. Creamy layer is unavoidable. This has happened in the US wrt blacks as well as women. Come to think of it, at the time of independence, all we had was a creamy layer even among the uppercastes. So, one might suggest that creamy layer is the first step towards general advancement. Although, it would be nicer if a way could be found to avoid the ``creamy layers`` from benefitting from the programs meant for the underprivileged.

To Urstruly,

Unless India shows at least 16% Muslim participation (currently less than 3%) in beareaucracy

Here you go, truly secular islamic and marxist heartburn!

Similarly, Sikhs only made it when they migrated and gave up all the hope in being partners in government and beaureaucracy etc

You claim to know India better than the Indians, don`t you? Not only your statement sucks due to the pathetic tone and substance, you can`t even spell it right!

I am sorry to say this but situation of minority participation is markedly worst than that in a state like Paksitan which came into being purely on ideological grounds.

Thats why you better rot in the land of pure carrying uncle sam`s baggage and gloat over the bakshish-powered economy.

Remeber Pakistani economy is running up becuase of Afghanistan, the day US pulls out from A`stan, you`re back in the boulevard. So better bend down well!

Ref dost-mittar #27

[veeresh#5

``b) Are you able to decipher castes and communities and religions from South Indian names, for example, or from East Indian names for that matter?``

Yes, in many but not all cases. But then, I would guess that East Indians and Soth Indians may have a better idea. Our harimou can recognize a person`s caste even from his nick:). ]

You give me way too much credit.

There was this thug who was attempting to extort Rs. 12,000 for ``feeding the fisherfolk`` of Chennai from us. His name was, get this, Jawaharlal Nehru. Not Jawahar, not Jawaharlal.

Two days ago, a policeman was arrested for getting a co-worker pregnant who committed suicide when he refused to marry her. His name -- only name -- was Iyer! A strange case where someone used a higher caste`s surname when you need to be an OBC to get a job with the police force!

Our own Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion named his son Stalin. How does one deduce caste from such a name? The Fund of Compassion (Karunanidhi) himself is reported to have changed his name from Dakshinamurthy. I presume Karunanidhi is less Sanskritik than Dakshinamurthy.

The estimable Stalin advised the Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu in a recent speech to give their children Tamil names. A sardonic letter writer suggested that people of Tamil Nadu should name their children Khrushchev, Putin and similar purely Tamil names. This seems to have been put into effect more than two decades ago as the newspapers reported that a criminal arrested in some robbery was named Kosygin!

Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion`s grand-nephew Dayanidhi Maran has named his children Karan and Divya. From my recollection of Mahabharata and Ramayana, I presume Karan is really Karna, the first son of Kunti; on the other hand Kara was a demon slain by Rama and it is entirely possible that Dayanidhi Maran overruled his wife and named his son after the demon, much like an earlier generation of Maasanamuthus used to pay EV Ramaswamy Naicker good money and have him name their children Ravana, Surpanakha, etc., to identify more closely with the Dravidian heritage represented by Ravana and to deny any association with the Aryan Rama.

And of course we now have a slew Tamil Manis, Tamil Kings, Love Kings, Love Queens, Tamil Citizens, etc., who can be anything like Reddy, Chetty, Gounder, Mudaliar, Naicker, Kallan, Thevar, etc.

And these guys, who used to have names like Amavasi (Amavasya - New Moon) are naming their daughters Poornima (Full Moon)! Is there any rhyme or reason to this? And to confuse the issue, I now see Vidya, Lavanya, Akshaya, Ramya, etc., as the names of the children of Maasanamuthus and Sangilikkaruppans. Just check out any school or college roster in Chennai or read newsmagazine articles interviewing them.

As my friend Ramesh once remarked to me, he and I have the only caste-neutral names in all of Tamil Nadu. So, you can`t even tell my caste from my given name! We even have Christians with our two names!

We live in strange times! We do need caste certificates from government officials to identify our castes.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts