Employment Equity in India’s Private Sector

re:#158 by harish_hyd
Yes, it was in Apollo, Chennai. Good to know u are related to the doctor.
Sridhar

#153 MG2

a big ditto.

IITs have done a very good job of conducting affirmative action. one is they dont go overboard in % of seats, and politics is mostly not practiced in admissions. what is more interesting is what they do after admissions.

IITs have two category of students, one is general category, who come thru the joint entrance exam, and second is a mix of reservation seats (also via the JEE but from a separate queue), foreigh nationals, NRIs etc (who dont take the JEE but are admitted on the basis of their O levels or somethng like that.) Students from the second group is given an evaluation test in basic subjects, and based on their performance, they are placed in what is called a ``slow-paced`` program for first two years. In this program, they have to stay back during vacations and put it extra effort to get basics like Physics, Chemistry, Math and English right in a slower paced curriculum. Then they join rest of the class in engineering subjects, where the grading and exit criteria is equal. So, an acknowledgement is made at the start to put in extra effort and such is expected from students as well. This pays off, as at least half of this group of students does very well in general competition at the time of graduation, and overall graduation rate of affirmative action students is not shabby, considering.

Then the lower grade guys can always work on the Arjun Tank at the DRDO ;-)

Medical teaching systems tend to be very political, even without reservations. IMHO, a primary care physician (or a pediatrician) need not be ``Brilliant``, just an honest practitioner. Very few doctors go on to do specialized invasive procedures, and i dont believe that ANY person with poor skills gets to become brain surgeon..training programs will automatically reject these candidates since no practicing surgeon wants to train a duffer.

Me thunks that brahmins have been programmed to think that they are smarter and surely they strive hard to do well and use available support systems. Backward classes OTOH have opposite programming.

While on the topics of caste identities, IMHO Iyengars are more clever and have thinner lips than Iyers. Iyers have more hair, but their women are more passionate :-) All the Tulsi kills passion in Iyengar gals.

#142 by rsridhar

[Which is why the doctor who put a pace-maker near my dad`s heart recently is a Dr Ramachandran (no prize for guessing his caste).]

Hey Sridhar, was it at Apollo, Chennai? If yes, the doctor who operated on your dad happens to be my first cousin. Not that it should of any interest to you or other chowkies, but just curious.

#142 by rsridhar

[Which is why the doctor who put a pace-maker near my dad`s heart recently is a Dr Ramachandran (no prize for guessing his caste).]

Hey Sridhar, was it at Apollo, Chennai? If yes, the doctor who operated on your dad happens to be my first cousin. Not that it should of any interest to you or other chowkies, but just curious.

ballukhan#152
I am not a political economist by training! But here are my opinions on some of your questions.

``1. IS providing for Social Goods the responsibility of the State or the Private Commercial organizations?``

2. Is the Private Sector not discharging its reponsibilities towards the collective by contributing it`s monies so that the State and its Babus can provide the Social Goods in India??``

The private employers as corporate citizens have to act in a responsible manner, including the laws and regulations developed by the state in discharging its social functions.


``3. if the state is unable to utilize all these resources properly to deliver the social goods to the poor and the deprived should she force the private sector to assign its resources (apart from taxes) in order to compensate for its mis-appropriation of the resources??
and, Should the Private Sector be penalized for the failure of the State??``

I have nowhere stated that the state has discharged its functions properly. And I am not asking the private sector to assign any significant resources. I am essentially asking it to take some proactive measures to end systemic barriers, which are eventually going to benefit the private sector as well.

``4. In case the State starts coercing the Private Sector to provide for Social Goods and Services which it is traditionally supposed to provide to the citizens (e.g Infrastucture, Policing, Judiciary, Municipal etc should the State acts as a totalitarian entity and force:
a. Private Construction Companies to lay Roads mandatorily for the community free of cost.
b. Private Transporters to provide Public transport mandatorily.
c. Private Security Companies to do mandatory Policing of the community in place of Police (which gets increasingly assigned to VIP duties).
d. Private Health facilities to provide its facilities to the government .
e. Private Waste Management Companies to provide its vehicles and resources free of cost for municipal purposes.(So that municipal babus can pass their fake bills and channelize the cuts up stream)``

I have not suggested anything remotely similar.


``5. How can Private Organizations protect it`s right to run the business within the framework of the existing acceptable liberal democratic rights for its employees while protecting its own right to manage the company affairs from the overarching totalitarian intents of a malfide government?``

This seems to be a rhetorical question.

masammuthu (various posts)
I would like to state that although I am proposing affirmative actions, my model is not Tamil Nadu. If I understand correctly, the state went far beyond affirmative actions and replaced historical injustices with even a more cruel and unjust system where the doors were almost shut on the best and the brightest on the basis of their being born in particular families. Ostensibly, it has not hurt the state but as someone pointed out, it may be despite and not because such measures.

151 arjun_m
I dont think training for entrepreneurship is more involved than higher secondary curricullum of Biology and Mathematics, but obviously we have a difference of opinion there.And that too when most of the people do end up doing miscellaneous entrepreneurial ventures.Not just to the scale of launching Wipro,Infosys,Microsoft, but probably opening a chai shop, running a transport business,dairy farm or even running an auto.
As for everyone running their own business,obviously that aint possible nor desirable.But those who are, they perhaps can do it in a better way.Market will take care of any oveflow.
Also, peole from communities and tribes that are traditionally engaged in some business,will be able to handle it better.As of now, if there is any imbalance, it is towards more opportunities to provide goods and services in terms of variety and quality than their are people providing them.Moreover, there are probably a lot of export opportunities that can be tapped by existing small scale industries.Carpets was an example given earlier on this board.
Making training available for entrepreneurship is fine,but I think it has to be as much a viable career option for an undergraduate as any other,in terms of the education provided.Not like a last resort.

``Reservations based on social strata are as important as those based on economic strata. ``

I agree with Mahesh on this. Oppressed people should be given an opportunity, but at the same time, this should not result in the oppression of other communities who are perceived to be the oppressors. Case in point TN reservations, where the Brahmins are now in a disadvantageous position unfairly.

We cannot ignore the historical injustices. Still there are places in India where the SC/ST/BC people are not treated fairly. Situation is lot better in the cities. If we want India to progress as a country everyone in the country should have the opportunity at better life. Merit must be given a priority in the positions of responsibility, but at the same time there are definitely positions where you do not need a very bright person.

Example a pilot selection should be definitely selected on the basis of merit, but at the same time a person sitting in the ticket counter need not be a genius. After a generation it is not difficult to see the sons and daughters of the person sitting at the ticket counter becoming a pilot.

Hopefully in another 30 years the politicians stop talking about the reservations.

If DM is a political economist then can he answer these questions:

1. IS providing for Social Goods the responsibility of the State or the Private Commercial organizations?
2. Is the Private Sector not discharging its reponsibilities towards the collective by contributing it`s monies so that the State and its Babus can provide the Social Goods in India??
3. if the state is unable to utilize all these resources properly to deliver the social goods to the poor and the deprived should she force the private sector to assign its resources (apart from taxes) in order to compensate for its mis-appropriation of the resources??
and, Should the Private Sector be penalized for the failure of the State??

4. In case the State starts coercing the Private Sector to provide for Social Goods and Services which it is traditionally supposed to provide to the citizens (e.g Infrastucture, Policing, Judiciary, Municipal etc should the State acts as a totalitarian entity and force:
a. Private Construction Companies to lay Roads mandatorily for the community free of cost.
b. Private Transporters to provide Public transport mandatorily.
c. Private Security Companies to do mandatory Policing of the community in place of Police (which gets increasingly assigned to VIP duties).
d. Private Health facilities to provide its facilities to the government .
e. Private Waste Management Companies to provide its vehicles and resources free of cost for municipal purposes.(So that municipal babus can pass their fake bills and channelize the cuts up stream)

5. How can Private Organizations protect it`s right to run the business within the framework of the existing acceptable liberal democratic rights for its employees while protecting its own right to manage the company affairs from the overarching totalitarian intents of a malfide government?

Reservations based on social strata are as important as those based on economic strata.

A poor brahmin has the support system of his relatives and role models he can look up to succeed well. The lower castes don`t. The intrinsic belief in one self exists in upper castes because they have many role models to inspire them. This is not so among lower castes who have told and time again that they are not equal to brahmins/forward castes in intellect.

I agree with Maasanamuthu`s #146, in general. But it is kind of frustrating to see non-deserving candidates making use of the reservations for backward castes.

I think that reservations should be only in educational sector and all facilities should be accorded to BCs/SCs/STs to do well in school/college. Beyond that it should be purely merit based. No incompetent person should ever be placed in a position of responsibility where he can affect the lives of other people. Doctors figure in the top position in the list of professionals with responsibility.

If the medical system in Tamil Nadu is doing well it is inspite of the reservations.

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#146 by masanamuthu
I agree with u that the poor people need govt support. Even in USA, which is a free-market economy, social security net is wide. However, where i disagree with u is that any special previleges should be given to anyone on the basis of caste just because of some past injustices. This concept is very wrong.
I was not trying to prove that one caste is better than the other. Somehow the very fact that people in India are dividied into castes is repugnant to me. I believe that the only people who need affirmative action in India are the poor (which includes people from all castes). Your Dravidian parties started out in the 60s to create an egalitarian society but have only made caste a more permanent feature today.
Sridhar

re:#147 by arjun_m
I meant skills that the rural masses could employ for earning a living. Things like carpentery, handicrafts, pottery etc etc.
It is still true that Indian lives in its villages and revival of local skills and making them remunerative will help the poor masses come out of their poverty.
How do we do it? I have no clue.
Sridhar

#143 sridhar
``India must have technical institutions where employment or skill-oriented courese are conducted``
#147 ``arjun_m``
``Uh-huh....And how do you do that? By churning out more MBAs? Exactly what skills make you more likely to be self-employed?``

I would like a more radical change.Skill craft orientation can begin at a very basic,even the primary level in schools.With some formal training, students ,at even the undergraduate level,can become proficient in their chosen skill.Even in the urban areas there are many skills that are in high demand among the upper class and the higher middle class- like candle making,glass painting ,catering etc.Since it is difficult to find intructors for all these skills, it can be done through a workshop approach in schools once a week.
In the rural and the suburban areas, such teaching should go on in the local languages, so that more and more people see a value in education.
More important than these skills is ``teaching`` entrepreneurship.And yes, it can be taught to a certain extent.Basic things like how to procure loans,prepare project reports,facilities provided by government ,import/export regulations and likewise can be a part of the higher secondary curricullum.It should be made as integral a part of the curricullum as History,Geography,civics etc. Not everybody would become an entrepreneur,but people would be better equipped to do so.

rsridhar:

`` did my MD Pediatrics from ICH, Egmore, Madras (i got the seat thr` a highly competetive All India Medical Entrance Exam) and my 2 years there were a revelation to me.
I saw how the caste-based selection system had played havoc with merit. The brightest jewel were still from the so called ``Forward Caste``. Less than 5% of seats are reserved for them, so they have got to bee good. Rest of the crowd was pathetic. There were many who just wanted a degree so they can practice medicine. Standards in that hospital were abysmal (even by Indian standards). Most people who get emplyoed as ``Assistants`` were political appointees with abysmal knowledge of Medicine. ..``

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Good to know you belong to the group of ``brightest jewels``.. I`m happy for that.. But if the medical system is so bad in TN as you suggest after so many years of reservation and deniying meritocracy, either all the kids and infants should be dying or suffer from all sorts of diseases.. But I think nothing like that is happening and the health indicators in TN are as good or infact better than the rest of the country....

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``Which is why the doctor who put a pace-maker near my dad`s heart recently is a Dr Ramachandran (no prize for guessing his caste)``
``Years ago, my friend from Madras migrated to Delhi and got selected to one of the medical schools there (the selection to medical seats is merit based there though there is a reserved quota for ST/ST but the percentage is 15% or so). He was brilliant. He was also a brahmin Iyer boy..``

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I think you don`t have to quote so many examples to say that ``iyers/Brahmins`` are special and intellectually superior.. :-).. No complaints there.. I have a big circle of friends from all stripes and know for that as a fact, though I`ve come across some very dumb brahmins..(maybe they`re those dark ``thenkalai`` folks from the lower castes who got drafted by ramanuja as brahmins).. :-) ..

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``People who are talented find a way of being creative and succeed in life. ``

-right.. but ``talent`` is a different beast to different ppl.. A first generation learner with his/her illiterate/just-high-school educated parents from a rural school without any private tuitions scoring 80%.. in my ranking would rate way higher than the kids with well educated parents/ancestors, their relatives in well off positions, a few in UK/US studying in PSBB scoring 95%.. The kids who fall in the later category might get disheartened..(it`s unfortunate).. but they have all the support systems in the world to lift them up while the kids in the first category badly need the govt. (thru its reservation/affirmative action) policies to lift them up..

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To the Learned Brahmins on this Board

Thank you so much for your illuminating observations against reservations. For generations we have been privileged to clean your latrines, carry your blessed droppings on our heads, burn your illustrious remains in the cremation grounds, clean your streets of the polluted remains of dead beasts. We have been careful to stay out of your way while you walked lest our polluting shadows fell on your sacred selves (in some parts of this great country of ours, I heard, our brethren had to tie brooms to their backsides to wipe away their polluting footprints. But we were smarter in this illustrious land of the Tamils; we just stayed away from streets frequented by your exalted selves).
This happy state of affairs would continued forever had it not been for some of our young hotheads who have grown fat feeding on the crumbs of your leftovers. Imagine! They want to be treated like human beings, fools that they are! In some eating houses, they actually want to drink out of steel tumblers, instead of coconut shells/broken pots. Ai-ai-yo! And now they want to sit at the same tables as your venerable selves. The presumptousness of it all! Ah truly, `tis the dark age of Kaliyuga.