Fahrenheit With a Silent H

whoops!!

post 59 was meant for Jang...

hmmm, well the Qur`an STRICTLY condemns those who collect usury, likens it to them waging war against Allah (swt)...so I sincerely doubt that the Prophet (saw) would consider collecting interest as an honest means of living, as you`d originally put.

Khair, I`m not out to judge, to each their own, I only say that in response to your original message regarding the Prophet (saw) and work.

I actually worked for the world`s biggest trust fund company, supervised the team responsible for auditing and reconciling their Cash & Share and Share Trustee accounts...it was interesting stuff, but I thought I`d broaden my horizons by looking into my personal passion. I figure I still have a bit of time before settling down.

But I do totally agree with you that the best way to learn about South Asia would be to actually go there, live it, experience it. Maybe one day insha-Allah...in the mean time, I think I`ll stick to the ``cold-underground graduate school office``... :)

Anyways, good luck with your work...!!

Sadna, I don`t know where you live, but I can assuredly say that the majority of people who went to see the movie in North America was principally due to the HYPE surrounding it. And trust me, there was a LOT of it...

I live in Montreal, a city whose populace is very socially-conscious (the entire province of Quebec seems to be) - there were over 200,000 people for anti-war rallies held regularly during the deep freeze of the winter last year (350,000 in one rally when the weather was -40 degrees celsius, not including the chill factor!!). For a city whose total population is just over 3 million, that`s pretty darn good. The people here are generally anti-imperialists. Even then, there was great hype about the movie, so people flocked to see it.

I think the American public has made it clear what they feel. Despite ALL the pressure to get Bush OUT of office, the entire world asking for it, ALL the documentaries and articles bashing the snot outta him, knowing full well he`s a war-mongeror, a liar, butcher of human lives and the English language, very stupid individual...they still voted him into office. They just don`t care.

His domestic policy is in as much chaos asa his foreign policy. The national debt of the US is over $7.4 trillion. Over a million jobs lost during his time. Yet, evidently, they just don`t care.

So I think your claim that they actually feel something for the Iraqis is invalid. Most people that I`ve met across North America, even when knowing the truth and/or recognizing reality, are simply too busy in their everyday lives in hoarding material wealth and attempting to achieve the American Dream to care about others (Muslims included).

Canadians, as a whole, are generally much better. We proved it by pressuring the govt not to send troops to Iraq, our social welfare system, and never voting those Conservatives/Canadian Alliance from out west...

Not that our troops are of any value anyway... :P

very well-said Malik99, as always...

Harish, I think it`s in Osama`s interests to have Bush in power...a gun-wielding cowboy leading the opposing forces or a manipulative politician...who would you rather face??

besides which, it`s all about the foreign policy. Frankly, there`s not much of a difference between Bush & Kerry. The blind support for their wild ``b@stard`` Zionist child MUST stop, otherwise the greatest war the world has ever seen is not that far ahead...

then again, I suppose the Neo-Cons WANT the War of Armageddon, as they battle the Anti-Christ...and they are opposed by those fighting Dajjal...

#48 by malik99

[....he did not take credit for it in the first video that came out? He did not take credit in the first year; in the second year; in the third year.]

For that matter, even the Jaish-e-Muhammad denied resposibility for the attack on the Indian Parliament in 2001, till US authorities confirmed the fact forcing it to admit its involvement. So what does it prove other than the fact that Osama is not only a bloody terrorist but also a liar par excellence?

[And then just 2 days before the US elections, he comes closest to taking that credit? Was he afraid all these years that if he did take the credit, americans would go hunting for him? (sarcasm intended).]

The intent was clearly to deal a body blow to George Bush`s chances. As the race got closer in the last days before the polls, Kerry was clearly breathing down his neck, and Osama thought with a little help from him, Bush could be vanquished. Unfortunately for him, it didn`t work. Now the Prez will go after him harder, and with CIA reports of him being holed in some urban location in Pakistan, it`s going to get hotter for Pakistan as well.

Re #50 …

… here’s yet another post from a confused member of the psychotic ummah … pointificating the genius of osama … the master chess player of world politics. It reveals ummah’s yearning for leadership … where they’ll settle for any smelly, goat-screwing afghan who knows how to operate a camcorder. Putting osama on a pedestal only shows how low the pedestal is … which is still higher than where the ummah collectively stands.

+++++++

Romair … evangelicals are all animals … whether christians, muslims, or hari krishnas. It is only a matter of who is let out long enough and allowed to meddle in public affairs. So far US has managed it better than the masses in the land of the pure … although this alone does not constitute praise by any standard.

Mullah’s do condemn non-Muslims to hell … insisting that if Islam is offered to a non-Muslim, who rejects it … he is doomed. This includes Mother Tressa … who will burn in hell for being an infidel b!tch. Furthermore, Quran commanded Muhammad to kill those who rejected his apostleship. All this was confirmed by a web-site managed by … get this … moderate, enlightened Muslims, who want to rise above the cacophony of sectarianism in Islam! I kid you not. And apostasy and jihad doctrines are just a few more cans of worms in ummah`s sac ... although I doubt the christian evangelists will do any better if let out of the churches long enough ...

The intellectual decrepitude of the Muslim fascists on this board (Urstruly and Malik99 and the author of this piece) further persuades me that we have in our midst stone age lunatics with an inferiority complex the size of Texas. Were either of you guys in Amsterdam the day before last?

Urstruly # 50 - based on your analysis it appears that there are two possible explanations for the lack of claiming responsibility on the part of bin Laden after 9/11:

1 - He was responsible for 9/11, but decided to remain quiet about taking responsibility for strategic reasons
2 - He was NOT responsible for 9/11, but decided to remain quiet about taking responsibility for strategic reasons.

which one do you lean towards?

my own analysis of the what ACTUALLY occured on 9/11, as well as the lack of willingness on the part of Bush admin to do a criminal investigation, the muttering of Powell prior to Afghan invasion that ``the evidence we have of linking 9/11 to bin Laden could not stand in the court of law``, the blocking of 9/11 commission by Bush admin, the unwillingness of Bush to testify alone with 9/11 commission, the false pretense of Iraq war, the non-existence of airport videos of the `nineteen` hijackers, the fact that some of the named hijackers are actually alive and well, the supression of any public airing of the contents of blackboxes of the planes, the unexplained mystery that the passenger manifests don`t match the official version about the identity of hijackers, and the list goes on..... makes me think that option 2 is more plausible.

Option 1 requires bin laden to be of extremely sharp wits, and deep knowledge of the western psyche and political undercurrents. However, Robert Frisk, who visited bin Laden in 1999 wrote that bin Laden seemed to be quite oblivious to some of the major political developments in europe and US.

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#50 urstruly

this is one thing i dont get about the ummah. most pious folks seem to consider deciet and lying as immoral and irreligious. ummah reps such as #50 seem to actually praise the conniving manipulations as just politics (while offcourse whining about the same from the banias and the joos).

what makes such moral ambivalence glorious to ummah reps?

malik99

I do not see the point you are trying to make. I think, by not taking credit for 9/11, right away, Osama has politically benefitted immensely. Please keep in mind that Osama`s audiences are not always West and Americans, but the people in Muslim world as well. On one hand he sowed the seeds of doubt in the minds of Muslim world, by not taking credit, which gave way to such theories ( I wont use the word conspiracy theories) as involvement of Jews or even CIA in the 9/11, and on the other hand he was also able to alienate and divide the Western population as well, for whom the oppression of Muslims was a non issue until then. Had Osama took credit right after the 9/11, at the time when whole world was horrified to the tragic death of so many innocent human beings - a tragedy fully exploited by American propaganda machinery now and then - it would have backfired against him. He waited. He waited until USA revealed its true and ugly lawless imperialist face to the world and what America really stands for. He has played his game shrewdly and he has played every politician in the Western world as well. America had a choice to disarm and disable Osama by addressing the very issues he professes. These issues, these grievances of the Muslim world are his weapons of mass destruction, which he uses quite effectively. Instead of disarming him of these WMDs US opted to attest to his claims by becoming heavy handed oppressor and today the rest of the world cannot differentiate, who is worst of two; US or Osama. Whether Osama is right or wrong, the fact remains that he is the best pocker and chess player today.

#48 malik99

brother malik,
what makes OBL credible? is it the 42 papers in reputed refereed journals on civil engineering he published? there are simpler explanations of why he was not fessing up earlier. u see, he was covertly and overtly supported by some regimes in the ummah and he was checking the heat .. now after w talked about ``with us or ..`` and put heat on him, he sings a different tune.

harish # 44 - Not so fast!

I am fully aware of the text of bin Laden`s latest speech. Lets take it for what it is. Doesn`t it occur as odd to you that after 9/11, which should have been his crowning achievement in his war against america, he did not take credit for it in the first video that came out? He did not take credit in the first year; in the second year; in the third year. And then just 2 days before the US elections, he comes closest to taking that credit? Was he afraid all these years that if he did take the credit, americans would go hunting for him? (sarcasm intended).

After Bali bombing, someone took credit for it within the first week. After Tanzania and Kenya bombing, someone took credit in the first few days. Each time there is even a kidnapping in Iraq, someone takes credit right away. You see harish, criminals like to flaunt their skills. If their idea is of recruitment, they want to show the potential recruites ``Look, how successful we are in hitting our enemies``. But yet, strangely enough, bin Laden failed to do that immediately after 9/11!

think about it. you don`t need to be a conspiracy theorist to be curious about these facts.

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#40 by sadna

[` Zionists did the WTC attacks, but WTC attacks happened due to Muslim anger at root cause Palestine. Bin Laden was not responsible because Zionists did it but Muslims and/or Bin Laden did it because of Muslim anger at root cause Palestine and so Bin Laden is our only hope against Zionists and the Great Satan while we ourselves prosper in the Satanic West`]

You forgot to add ``The 9/11 attackers were not Muslims because no true Muslim can commit such a heinous crime``, and/or ``The 9/11 attackers were not Muslims because Islam is a religion of peace and does not permit such deeds``.

OBL is a part of USA`s Plan.

that stupid Moron along with Talibans has hurt Muslim cause more ....then all the ills done by all the muslims put together in their whole history....

More likely he is following an already mapped out plan.....

#26 by malik99

[Now here is the funny thing - as HUGE a `victory` as 9/11 was for bin Laden, he has conspicusouly never uttered the words which said to the effect of ``I take full responsibility of 9/11. I ordered it and here is how I did it``. NEVER! Not ONCE! I challenge you to provide me a sentence which clearly states that. No interpretations. No beating around the bush. No derivations. Simply a statement which clearly indicates that ``I, Osama bin Laden did it.``]

Not so fast buddy. Here are the relevant excerpts from OBL’s speech where he admits that 9/11 was indeed ordered by him.

Transcript of Osama bin Laden’s Speech

Excerpts:

“In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.”

“It never occurred to us that the commander-in-chief of the American armed forces would abandon 50 000 of his citizens in the twin towers to face those great horrors alone, the time when they most needed him.

But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers. We were given three times the period required to execute the operations – All Praise is Due to Allah.”

shujat, while i am sincere in my view that SA studies is a waste of time, i mean no disrespect to you. in fact, most of graduate school is a waste of time. but some degrees at least will give a foot in the door of a potentially rewarding career. just my opinion.

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sshw #36
I don`t pursue studies in Middle East or S. Asian studies as you can prob. guess. :). Sorry for my rather sharp comment, it was not really meant for you personally, but the whole

` Zionists did the WTC attacks, but WTC attacks happened due to Muslim anger at root cause Palestine. Bin Laden was not responsible because Zionists did it but Muslims and/or Bin Laden did it because of Muslim anger at root cause Palestine and so Bin Laden is our only hope against Zionists and the Great Satan while we ourselves prosper in the Satanic West`

line of thinking.

Either WTC attacks were carried out by Muslims angry about root cause Palestine or WTC attacks were carried out by Zionists, not both. Make up your minds people which it is and stop trying to have it both ways.


``A particularly powerful and moving scene is when an elderly Iraqi woman, after her house is totally demolished and family members murdered, is crying, shouting, praying for Allah (SWT)’s retribution on those who have caused so much grief on her and her people. Naturally, there are many of those with “knowledge” bursting out of their cerebral seams that would instantly get on the defensive, condemn her, and belch out the automated line of “Islam means peace” in a self-righteous fashion.``

According to me, Americans whether Muslim or nonMuslim who watched the movie were very moved by the woman`s grief and calamity because their media does not show such scenes ever. They understood exactly her prayers meant because viewers could put themselves in her place, courtesy Moore. (It is like people saying hey bhagwan in Hindi movies but much more tragic, because real).

Michael Moore`s movie was seen by 10s of millions of Americans - so many wouldn`t have gone to see it if a majority hadn`t been empathetic towards Iraqis` predicament. But here you are making that one scene a reason to feel sorry for yourself, it is hard to understand why except a highly developed sense of victimhood.

Anyway.

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hamidm #27: ``i think evangelical christians are obnoxious people who, under the right (or wrong) circumstances can be just as dangerous as the islamic suiciders and homiciders ............. the difference is that there are 250 million ``normal`` people to keep these 50 million or so looneys in check``

Thanks for the honest reply.

I have to disagree with one point you mentioned. I don`t think it is a ratio of 50 million to 250 million. According to CNN, 33% to 40% of the registered voters in the USA are now Christian Evangelists. They are probably the largest single united voting block in the USA. Nearly all of them vote for Bush (other than Mel Gibson, who is Australian). This is a far far higher ratio than the unconditional votebase of the MMA maulvis (which is less than 10%). It is even higher than the votebase of BJP`s voters (which sits between 20 and 30%)

The Christian Evangelists have a stricter interpretation of their Shariah than Muslim maulvis. According to them, if you don`t consider Jesus to be your savior, you are going to hell. While Muslim Shariah interpreters don`t condemn everyone to hell.

According to surveys, Bush loses to Kerry, in a landslide, in any Western country of the world. Except in the USA. Where it is a dead heat, despite the fact that Bush has screwed up everythign that he could screw up in the world. The USA populace is not happy with how he is handling the economy or foreign policy. Yet he is neck and neck, with Kerry.

The reason is simple. Bush is the chief Christian Evangelist. All the Christian Evangelists unconditionally vote for Bush. Because they consider him the savior. And they, then, go on to support anything he does, including Iraq. Bush could thus run the USA and the world into the ground, but 33% of the USA will continue to vote for him.

This is why, in any poll, every single state, under the new Mason Dixon line (barring an odd Florida or two, which can go either way) is almost always completely Republican. Geographically that is more than half of the USA. The Democrat guy could be a Roosevelt, but he still cannot get the vote of the Christian Evangelists in the South. Hence the Democrat can only fight for the remaining 66% or less of the USA vote.

The USA`s voting pattern is more religious now than Pakistan`s. And Bush has placed himself perfectly, for that. He maybe stupid personally, but he is shrewd politically. Had he not invaded Iraq, he would have been an easy winner. And had a Republican of more capability been running, he would have won easily also.

Based on this, I cannot figure out, why you (someone who hates religion and condemns the Evangelists to hell) support the removal of Saddam - the most secular leader in the history of Arabistan. And one of the only ones who actually did bomb the maulvis and madrassahs. And why you support Bush - the chief of the, ``obnoxious people who, under the right (or wrong) circumstances can be just as dangerous as the islamic suiciders and homiciders.``

Bush is only going to create more and more Evangelists, because they form the core of his votebase. If Kerry does not win this election, the Democrats will have their work cut out for them in the future, because every Republican candidate will not be a dimwit like Bush, and US will be out of Iraq by the next election. The Republicans will thus not have anything dragging them down. And the Evangelists can, now, almost by themselves, put the Republican in the White House. Other than California and New York, the Democrats are out of touch with the increasingly religious nature of the US politics.

shujat

i sell my wares in the market place and get money in return, some of it i invest and get interest, divident and (sometimes) capital gains.

as i get older, inshallah, dividents will get taxed @ 10% in future. i also pray that interest also gets taxed at a lower rate.

so brother, please join me selling your wares in the market place, and dont waste any further time in that cold-underground graduate school office. if you are really interested in south asian studies, take a year off, live there on your own money or wages, and you will learn far more.

i certainly hope Sadna and Jang do something for a living other than posting on chowk.com!! :)

so Sadna, what exactly do you do for a living, if you don`t mind me asking?

Malik99 makes excellent points in this post and 34...

Some people talk of freedom of speech, yet act as if freedom of speech is only for those who broadcast CNN-type material. Anyone who contradicts their one-dimensional thinking pattern, they label them as lunatics, backwards, fundamentalists, etc.

Why??

If anything, I think THAT precisely is backwards and improper thinking. The irony is that the guilty ones fall prey to their own hypocritical traps.

It`s sad.

hamidm writes ``whereas in islam the line between the lunatic fringe and the so-called ``mainstream`` is very blurred .......... malik99 is a good example``

hamidm sahb - why is Malik99 a lunatic in your eyes? Is it because he does not regurgitate the State and Defence department doled out talking points?

You are the perfect product of a media that dishes out sound-bites and information on the ``need to know`` basis. bin Laden`s speech is cut and only relevant paragrpahs are published. Why? Is it because there is a fear that people might read the whole speech and end up using their own mind to understand the context?

arjun - you write ``OH SHUT UP ALREADY...``

very apt response on your part. very fitting too. and very much in line with the way Bush admin has conducted its business - that is, trounce anyone who dares to articulate a dissenting opinion. Shut anyone who might dare to think outside of the cocophony that Bush admin has created.

Jang, if I may inquire, what exactly do you do for a living?

Also, where are you located?

I do agree in the general sense of your question of people earning an honest living as per the example of Muhammad (SAW).

and fair point about Jesus (AS)...as far as my understanding is, the Qur`an often refers to him as MaseeH `Isa ibn Mariam, and various forms of that complete title at different times. He was the Messiah sent to Bani Isra`il, as promised beforehand, whom the majority of his people rejected. Of course, as part of the very essential Islamic beliefs is to accept all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah and not to make distinction between them.

It`s interesting to compare how the Jewish rabbis at the time of `Isa (as) deviated the people from the truth...just like today, the common mullah does, and gives the legitimate ulema and scholars of Islam a bad name through bad association.

also, it`s interesting to contrast the difference in the situation of `Isa (as) with the next Messiah (as prophecised in Deuteronomy and other parts of the Bible), Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw)...how the sahabas (RA) stuck with him through thick and thin, respected him and defended him with their lives...

Jang, if I may inquire, what exactly do you do for a living?

Also, where are you located?

I do agree in the general sense of your question of people earning an honest living as per the example of Muhammad (SAW).

and fair point about Jesus (AS)...as far as my understanding is, the Qur`an often refers to him as MaseeH `Isa ibn Mariam, and various forms of that complete title at different times. He was the Messiah sent to Bani Isra`il, as promised beforehand, whom the majority of his people rejected. Of course, as part of the very essential Islamic beliefs is to accept all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah and not to make distinction between them.

It`s interesting to compare how the Jewish rabbis at the time of `Isa (as) deviated the people from the truth...just like today, the common mullah does, and gives the legitimate ulema and scholars of Islam a bad name through bad association.

also, it`s interesting to contrast the difference in the situation of `Isa (as) with the next Messiah (as prophecised in Deuteronomy and other parts of the Bible), Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw)...how the sahabas (RA) stuck with him through thick and thin, respected him and defended him with their lives...

good point Malik99

jang
There is hope. Bin Laden has vowed to ruin the US`s economy. That will tank Canada`s economy too. When that happens there will be no money to fund Middle Eastern and Asian studies and people will be forced to earn an honest living(herding elk or trapping beaver perhaps).

#23 sadna

what is really scary is people in canada are doing graduate school research in whining. so now every person who does not want to make an honest living can join a program in south asian or middle eastern studies and research the root causes scientifically and perfect ways of art of whining..all at the expense of canadian taxpayer.

why cant pople earn an honest living following the example of the holy prophet?

and dont muslims believe that jesus was a prophet and a saviour? maybe not the last..

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romair,

..... here is an equally honest answer : i think evangelical christians are obnoxious people who, under the right (or wrong) circumstances can be just as dangerous as the islamic suiciders and homiciders ............. the difference is that there are 250 million ``normal`` people to keep these 50 million or so looneys in check whereas in islam the line between the lunatic fringe and the so-called ``mainstream`` is very blurred .......... malik99 is a good example .....

............ geerally speaking, on a sunny day when there is no war going on in your backyard, evangelical christians are horribly self-righteous people with peaked looks who go around shoving their dead god in your face and making a nuisance out of themselves ....... they are almost as bad as the tableegis, except that they use deodrant and don`t smell as bad ........... but other than that, they are insufferable and, i might add, can pose a major threat to your health if armed and bothered ! .........

arjun # 25 says ``all this begs the question: If the bush administration is lying and OBL is abe lincoln in a turban, isn`t that all the more reason to trust bin laden when he says he ordered the 9/11 attacks? ``

AHA! Excellent question!

Now here is the funny thing - as HUGE a `victory` as 9/11 was for bin Laden, he has conspicusouly never uttered the words which said to the effect of ``I take full responsibility of 9/11. I ordered it and here is how I did it``. NEVER! Not ONCE! I challenge you to provide me a sentence which clearly states that. No interpretations. No beating around the bush. No derivations. Simply a statement which clearly indicates that ``I, Osama bin Laden did it.``

Strangely enough, he has used ample words and frequent times to applaud 9/11. But you see Arjun, applauding an action is not the same as taking responsiblity for that action.

And then, just to protect american public from the sights and sounds of bin Laden, the US media selectively releases the parts and passeges of bin laden`s statements - with good measure of stretch of imagination thrown in the translation. Never a full statement text. Wonder why?

Anyways, i think you are beginning to ask the right questions. Pretty soon you will realize that just because US government said so, does not mean that IT IS SO!

Peace!

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One root cause(among others) is that many `Muslims` feel themselves disadvantaged by the global capitalist economies and global influence of advanced countries. What should by moral right be theirs(ie., the whole world) is in the hands of the US and the Western countries.

So deeply is this `injustice` felt that the atrocities of Saddam or the Taliban never registered on the injustice scale, but the headscarf rule in France did. And a country chock full of free Muslims who had full sovereignty over their own affairs, their own taxes, their own land and resources for 57 years like Pakistan is still citing `root cause` for its own bad choices and for the condition of its population. Then what hope for other Muslim countries who never even got a fair chance because the West was playing its post-colonial games with them?

Except for Indian Muslims(and no doubt many others who are not raised that way) the ordinary response from an `Islam in danger`-raised Muslim in ANY disagreement is that he/she will immediately position himself/herself as a victim. If that does not work, he/she will position the disagreement as `Islam in danger`. To bring this sort of `I am your victim, you owe me` type of `aggression` into EVERY Muslim-nonMuslim interaction is fundamentally dishonest and politically self-defeating beyond a point(refer sovereign Muslim country cited above).

Thus for example the Palestine issue has just become a dishonest intellectually-lazy excuse for bad choices of Muslims 1000s of miles away. What is the reason for Bin Laden`s close associates to get support from Pakistanis and their government when these associates have a strongly anti-Shia agenda and have no hesitation in attacking Pakistan`s and Afghanistan`s own Shias ? Same `root cause Palestine`? That cannot be cited as the reason for Bin Laden`s anti-Iran Saudi-funded associates to apostatise and murder Shias because Iran supports the Palestinians too! So who should be urged to look for root cause to spare certified victim Muslims the blame for those attacks - in the official oppressor list only hindoos remain. And that is exactly what Pakistani ministers do after every Shia attack, ie, blame the Indians.

Simply because genuine political causes exist, can mass murderers like Bin Laden be so unthinkingly ceded the right to represent these causes ?

For nonMuslims to address genuine issues hurting `victim mindset` Muslims can be difficult if such Muslims feel justice means dominance over nonMuslims, not equality with nonMuslims. If such victimhood is to become an entrenched tradition, it will continue until Muslims rule the world as a Khilafat, which means it will continue forever.

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hamidm: A question, for which I am hoping you can supply an honest reply.

What is your view of Christian Evangelists?

Their motto is that anyone who does not consider Jesus to be his/her savior is going to hell. Based on this, you and I are going to hell...........

For the interactors who have pounced on Shujaat for this very well written and very logical piece, all i have to say to you is this:

You continue to give benefit of doubt to the proven cheaters, and liars, and stealers. This is PROVEN. Its in front of you - no WMDs, no link to al-qaeda, NOTHING! The rationale for killing 100,000 iraqis and 1200 americans was FALSE! UN says that. Other world agencies say that. For GOD`s SAKE, US ITSELF says that!!! Yet, you continue to parrott the lines of that even these theives and LIARS have disowned. Shame on you, the educated non-thinking slaves who try to pretend to be intellectuals.

If your wives had cheated on you this much or lied this many times, you would have divorced them long time ago. YET, you display a divinely patience and understanding and spirit of forgiveness for these thugs. You pounce at anyone who dares to remind you of the deceit and thuggery of this administration.

Your education has turned you into mechanical robots, with no rationalization and no rational thinking.

ascribe blame to those who publicly accept it.
osama has been on tv repeatedly but most recently openly admitting that he was proud of the WTC attacks and that he wants the american people to realize that their fate lies in thier hands and they sudnt trust bush or kerry.
unfortunately the american people panic easily and will choose to take the shortcut the cowards way out the expected route and do something utterly crazy by re-electing bush? i heard someone on fox say its likely as american people usualyl go with what they already know when theyre panicked.
God help us if hes re-elected...but if kerry does win, ill be pleasantly surprised and partially happy.

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the amazing root cause.

some of us look at the totality of what communities offer to this humanity.

some communities defend themselves vigorously, using whatever method they can while offering humanity developments in the fields of democracy, falafel, particle physics, desert agricuture, anti-balistic missile batteries, medicine, chemistry, security fences, voice over IP and symphony orchestra.

others while haphazardly defending something abstract contribure developments in whining, slavery, demolition, and outdated jurisprudence.

i think the support for root cause will dramatically increase with higher contributions.

I wonder if you can dig up favoribility rating of the Bush administration in the same countries?

You can keep harping on the rhetoric that Israel is not to blame, and it is the Saudis, the Iranians, the Pakistanis, and the rest of the darn Muslim world that is to blame. And somebody will come around and tell you that you`re full of shit and that it is rather the other way around, ad nauseum.

The fact is that Zionist movement does factor into geopolitics, and so does Saudi movement [Wahabism], and so does the United States for supporting both of these countires and others. Another fact is that the world is hurtling toward a major global conflict and it would be prudent to examine all aspect of this conflict. Now Moore, having become such a huge force in the American mainstream, should have highlighted other important aspects, such as the Zionist movement, so that the American people get a balanced view.

Osama IS guilty as charged - he has said so himself. If his behavior is akin to cancer, then you cannot ignore the causes - that is if you`re really intereted in resolving this major conflict facing the world today.

Thank you Pi for understanding my point.

9/11 was not a cause...it`s part of the series of effects. People, at least here in North America, didn`t bother asking why would someone want to do this, who is benefitting from this, etc. Basic questions that anyone would ask after any crime occured. So why not in this case?

To beat the criminal you have to understand him. Basic criminology.

I think everyone has the right to agree or respectfully disagree. But I don`t think we have to be immature and sarcastic.

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//...MY point was that yes, that ``country of 4 million people`` and anyone belonging to that ideology DOES have the primary role in world terrorism ...//

Yes sir - we get your point. It`s the Zionist ideology that`s responsible. It`s their fault - They made Osama do it. Osama should NOT be blamed for what happened on 9/11.

Is this correct - or I am mis-quoting you again?

arjun,

....... you are being too harsh ..... it being the month of ramadhan it is particularly difficult for the ummah to think on an empty stomach - not that they do a very good job the rest of the year ............ but what really scares the bejesus out of me is the fact that the author appears to be a young man born and raised in canada ......... i would like to think that hockey and food withdrawal is responsible for this inane canuck rant ........

Hi everyone,

thank you all for reading/responding to the article.

what I find ``unfreaking unbelievable`` is that the cynicism that is plaguing people`s minds is hitting almost-delusional levels. Out of the entire article, one sentence/paragraph is targetted and assumptive statements are made.

``The second criticism was the absence of the most important player in the grand scheme of events: Israel. There is no doubt that the Zionist movement occupies a primary role in the WTC attacks, international anti-American sentiment, terrorism, and plunging the entire world into the chaotic time that we live in. Such a major character being excluded from the movie is simply unfair. ``

For those of you who made statements for me, PLEASE explain how or where you read me making claims of a number of certain people being absent??

Yes, there are numerous loopholes (and if people wish, I can post some of it up).

However, MY point was not that. MY point was that yes, that ``country of 4 million people`` and anyone belonging to that ideology DOES have the primary role in world terrorism - including 9/11. It is their consistent terrorism that have spurred an outgrowth of extremism throughout the world, and the main victims - as always - are us common people.

So please, as much as I do appreciate the feedback (even criticism), I do not like being misquoted or accused of making comments that I haven`t made.

Evidently, it`s something anyone can be guilty of, it doesn`t really matter whether you`re ``born in Canada or Jedda``...

thank you,

Shujaat

//...There is no doubt that the Zionist movement occupies a primary role in the WTC attacks, international anti-American sentiment, terrorism, and plunging the entire world into the chaotic time that we live in. Such a major character being excluded from the movie is simply unfair....//

My initial reaction was the same as others that this is yet another attempt to lay the blame on the Zionist movement... even after Bin Laden admits to the guilt yet again in his latest production. There is no doubt that Bin Laden did this....

But, I`m inclined to give Shujaat a benefit of the doubt in that what he means is an indirect involvement as apposed to a direct one. Israeli-Palestinian conflict is indeed one of the primary motivators that drive people like Bin Laden and his ilk; the atrocities committed by both sides on each other keep adding fuel to the fire. I believe it indeed contributed, albeit indirectly, to the 9/11 events...

A great [objective] film maker that Moore is, he certainly left out that aspect of the current global morass from his documentary. Just remember that one of the primary motivators for Moore is money. Do you think he had little trouble selling his movie in the US the way it was? He would have faced gargantuan roadblocks selling it if he had depicted the Jews in a negative light.

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//...I have two principal criticisms regarding the movie. The first is that instead of questioning who exactly perpetrated the WTC attack, ...//

Shujjat Mian - didn`t you see the new film that came out this saturday? It was the latest release from `Bin Laden House of Horrors` production ...... you know, the outfit that specializes in this new genre of films: reality TV style documentary films with a dash of subtle horror which intends to send powerful messages to americans, zionists and assorted kufrs around the world. This was released just in time for the Halloween !!!

So watch that tape ..... yeah - bin laden films usually go directly to tape :) .... it is running all over the place - even on CNN. And this tape explains ``who exactly perpetrated the WTC attack``.

Actually the tape seems to indicate that Bin Laden himself did the WTC attack ... but even then, you will like it - because here is one guy who can finally break the back of Zionist Movement - which plays ``primary`` roles in all the terrorism and violence.

And if you are a paki - you will be doubly proud, because this world famous film was produced entirely in pakistan. Yep - this one is totally indigenous , true blue paki product - One that has taken world by storm and has the ability to influence the election results of the only superpower and thereby can change the history of the world. You pakis must be elated.

++++

[ Gawd - what`s wrong with these people? Still confused about who exactly perpetrated the WTC attack?? Still tilting at zionist wind-mills ? Un-freaking-believable!!! ]

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`` who exactly perpetrated the WTC attack, ..``

This is a very valid question.....!!

So far the official explanations have too many loop holes.....

Aw common don`t fell for the conspiracy theory.......But still there are many many...

Unanswered.... valid questions...?

.... here we go again !

........ another piece of unadulterated doo by a member of the delusional ummah which refuses to come to grips with reality ....... and it doesn`t really matter if you are born in canada or jeddah - the disease is equally debilitaing

``The first is that instead of questioning who exactly perpetrated the WTC attack, ``

Oh, please enlighten us! We poor ignorant were told they were Arabs. What insights you have big guy that is any different than what we poor ignorant know? We will trust you!

“Israel. There is no doubt that the Zionist movement occupies a primary role in the WTC attacks,”

Here you go! Israel it is! So those crashed into WTC were Israeli and Zionist! Thanks for the information. I am willing to give up all my news sources, if you start a blog with the “right” info about rest of the world affairs.

You saw the documentary, wrote the whole review, reality is: you did not get it. I guess you need to go back and see the documentary again to get a grip on what issues Moore is addressing!

This applies to you buddy!

``Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.`` - Groucho Marx

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``The first is that instead of questioning who exactly perpetrated the WTC attack, Moore went along with the American government’s official explanation. ``

so who do you think who did 9/11 -- the Jews? -- or the CIA?.....

apparently u wrote this convoluted prose before that mass murderer in Golden Garb admitted his guilt on the recent tape -- and asked Americans to re-elect the MORON -- George Bush.....

///....There is no doubt that the Zionist movement occupies a primary role in the WTC attacks, international anti-American sentiment, terrorism, .... plunging the entire world into the chaotic time that we live in..//

You nailed it man - it`s all a zionist conspiracy. Yep - these jews play a ``primary`` role in all that is wrong in the world today - the terrorsm and violence ..... it`s all because of that tiny piece of country with 4 million people and another few million of their supporters in US.