Yasser Arafat

u all can babble whatever u want to about Arafat in posts after posts of over analized Evangelico-Zionist inanities -- but here is what one -- who really counts -- a new generation Palestinian has to say about Mr. Arafat:

`Yasser Arafat equals Palestine,`` said 19-year-old Suleiman Abu Shoker.``......Period

Sattar,

It is a sad day when I have to side with Malik99 against you... and perhaps it is indicative of the malaise that has gripped the Ahmaddiya community which had forfeit its rights in the country that this community had fought to create, perhaps playing a more leading role than other Islamic sects...

Leaving is no option... and Yasser Arafat was the best the Palestinians had... let me say this... it is only because of Arafat that there is a palestine and a legal framework on the map... had he given up... and left as you suggest ... there would be Palestine... only Israel...

-YLH

#63 fuzair

Right.

Good causes all. Begaar. Haris in Sindh, muza`aras in Punjab, Sarhad and Balochistan. Bhatta workers. Christians all over Pakistan, Hindus all over Pakistan. Ahmadis/Qadyanis all over Pakistan, and soon to join this group, Shias all over Pakistan. Women in Pakistan in general. Yes, karo-kari too, which isn`t confined to Sindh only, but is also practiced with the same religious zeal and fervour in the Punjab, Sarhad and Balochistan, albeit under different names.

Forget about the Kashmiris and Palestinians, stick closer to home.

How about attempting to devise some antidote to the institutionalized corruption that is being practiced in Pakistan by the military since 1958?

How about attempting to devise an educational system that fosters learning and does not produce formatted floppies instead of educated, aware and responsible humans?

How about attempting to instil sincerety to their calling in at least among two professions, the judiciary and the journalists in Pakistan?

How about . . .

Isn`t this darn list getting a bit too long for comfort?


Siddiqua Haqnawaa

HP #75 Since you are getting high on money, perhaps you could pass some of that good stuff around (just like folks getting high on other stuff pass the joint around). :-)

As for the figures of war dead in 1973, neither you nor I was there to do the body count. We have to go by what is generally accepted as being the facts of what happened. But then, neither you nor I was there to do a body count on ANY war, so by this reasoning all wars have been fake wars.

Also, my basic point was that why would Israel and Egypt go through all this trouble of faking a war just to maintain that ersatz diplomatic protocol you came up with that countries need to recognize their respective statehoods before they can negotiate.

Sattar2 # 71 - Following are the phrases you have used in your one single post regarding me:

``your intellectual constipation``

``you are a bigger fool``

``Yours is indeed a sub-intelligent, knee-jerk reaction.``

``hot-blooded jihadi``

Sattar sahib, why are you getting all defensive?! I am on YOUR side. Remember? I agreed fully with your suggestion that palestinians should pack their bags and leave. I even did not argue with YOUR interpretation of Quranic verses either. In fact, I marvel at your simple and clear thinking. Why didn`t this idea hit kashmiris, iraqis, chechens, filipino muslims, thai muslims, bsonians?!! Your idea that, when faced with oppression Muslims should pack their bags and leave, is simply brilliant.

All I did was to extrapolate that idea and suggested that we apply it to qadiyanis in Pakistan. They have been complaining for a while about oppression. But they are still there, organizing and fighting Muslim majority`s oppression. But no sooner did i suggest YOUR idea for YOUR community, you go all bonkers on me.

Thats not fair sattar sahib. That only shows the cute bigotry and hatred you harbor for muslims. Thats all. But still, I like your idea.

Malik …

As I have shown, Quran recommends migration when one is faced with insurmountable oppression. This instruction is supported by common sense as well. It is pointless for one to live helplessly under oppression … while refusing to migrate. Such stubbornness gives rise to desperation, perpetuates the cycle of misery and violence, and degenerates into a suicide bomber’s mindset. Does any of this ring a bell?

Migration under such circumstances is one of the most endearing action in the sight of Allah (according to Quran, if you care to follow it). It gives a person the opportunity to better his life, the lives of his family members, and more. It also allows a person, a community, to take their cause to another region, to a different platform, to a higher level … from where they can better struggle for their cause.

Migration of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) perfectly illustrates this. Allah Almighty strengthened his cause, and granted him peace, security, and a community of faithful companions. This allowed the dear Prophet (pbuh) to build a community along principles of justice and civility, and to take his mission to the next level. None of this would have been possible if Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions had refused to leave their homes, and instead chosen to live under perpetual oppression and suffering.

Sahib … I am citing and trying to explain Allah’s commandment here. Don’t continue to be a stubborn jihadi. Instead, try to appreciate the wisdom and the truth of this divine guidance. More later.

#70
tahmed,

I know some concepts appear strange to many people. People dying in a war have never stopped power games. That’s never been a consideration for any thing. Especially military- they know they are going to die and their families get compensated.
I think 10000 or 3000 or grossly exaggerated figures. They came right out of the Egyptian and Israel propaganda offices. Why should I or any body believe those numbers?

Anyway, nowadays only smell of money intoxicates me and that keeps coming so instead of coke I am mostly high on money!

What is the Indian to Pakistani ratio of people posting on this thread?

Malik (60):

I’ll try to unplug your intellectual constipation by stating that … the option of migrating from the land of oppression … applies to Ahmadi Muslims also. I hope you feel better now. If you conclude that by making such a suggestion, I support oppression … of Palestinians or Ahmadis … than you are a bigger fool than I originally suspected.

Does such a suggestion in Quran mean that Allah supports oppression and has hatred for humanity? Yours is indeed a sub-intelligent, knee-jerk reaction.

Carried out properly, this option offers a better, more effective way for Palestinians to carry their struggle. Quranic teachings proved their worth … when migration turned out to be the turning point for the mission of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Palestinians are being driven out of their homes as the State of Israel continues to oppress them. The issue is … how should they deal with these circumstances? Ummah should seek guidance from Quran first and foremost and accept that suicide bombings, violence will never win them peace and security.

I’ll post next on how following the Quranic guidance of migrating has worked for Ahmadi Muslims. May be then you will stop arguing like a hot-blooded jihadi …

HP: So if I understand you right, Egypt pretended to attack and Israel pretended to lose in 1973. I am sure the families of the 10,000 egyptians and 3,000 Israelis who died fighting would be thrilled to learn abou this!! Unless you tell me that they were faking it too, and that in the evening (after the photographers were gone) all these arab and israeli ``war dead`` got up, dusted off their clothes, had a good laugh and went over to Rick`s Cafe for a round of drinks. And all this just because Israelis and Egyptians were prevented by this ersatz diplomatic protocol you present whereby two parties must recognize each other`s statehood before they can sit around the negotiating table!! Ha! ha!

HP my friend, you are a sincere man, but surely you will grant that one needs more than a pinch of cocaine to buy this one.

And you think 1971 was a fake ware too. Please stop. I am laughing so hard I just got hernia. Ha! ha!

Malik (60):

I’ll try to unplug your intellectual constipation by stating that … Quranic guidance of migrating from the land of oppression applies to Ahmadi Muslims also. Happy now? If you think that by making such a suggestion I support oppression … of Palestinians … of Ahmadis … then yours is indeed a knee jerk reaction.

Does the Quranic suggestion that one should migrate to avoid oppression imply that Allah supports oppression and has hatred for humanity? Based on your posts, the answer seem to be a resounding ``yes``.

Migration turned out to be a turning point for the mission of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also. Palestinians are now being oppressed by the State of Israel. The issue is … how should they, the Palestinians, react now? My view is that they should seek guidance from Quran first and foremost … and should accept that suicide bombings, violence against civilians are not going to win them peace and security. It is for this reason that I quoted from Quran … but you are more interested in what you think should be done, and not what the Almighty commands you to do.

More later ...

I must say, I am amazed at the popularity Palestinians and Arafat enjoy amongst Pakistanis. I have never been able to figure out why. Just out of curiousity, how much experience do the individuals who are so supportive of Palestinians, have in working with them as a Pakistani? Have they ever been in the same business environment with them? Do they know what the Palestinians think of Pakistanis? Do Palestinians support Pakistanis, or do they under-cut Pakistanis?

Pakistanis, both secular and maulvis, go way overboard in their support for Palestine. It should be supported as a human rights violation case. But, Pakistanis should also demand, from Palestinians and Arafat reciprocity in support for Pakistan. At the very least, not support for India, when it is battling Pakistan. And if the Palestinians do not agree, then Pakistanis should stop tearing down their street signs in protest.

And for heavens sake, recognize Israel, so that the US Jewish lobby gets off Pakistan`s case. One should not be more Catholic than the Pope. Jordan, Egypt, and even Palestine itself, has recognized Israel. What the hell are we waiting for?

P.S. I will tell you what we are waiting for. We are too scared to piss of the Saudi monarchy, which has made a living in posing itself as the Islamic warriors (not that I have anything against Islamic warriors - specifically the ones who took on occupying powers), to satisfy its local Wahabbi maulvis. Why in the world does every Pakistani PM take-off to Saudi Arabia to meet the King after being elected?

Pakistan should recognize the Jewish State of Israel, and then tell the Jewish lobbies and Israel that they should stop killing innocent Palestinians. And then concentrate on problems closer to home...........

and then the wall

here is another one:

sac:
To judge a leader, one needs to look at the condition of the led before his arrival and after his departure

this was in 2001...bantustisation is worse now:

The ones we think of as heores reveals more about ourselves than anything else. For instance there are people who consider Majid Khan or Salim Malik as batsmen that brought them the greatest joy. There are others who think Javed Miandad was the best batsman ever. Is there a single metric to decide who was better? Runs, averages and style are largely a matter of personal preference.
I believe there also a metric to judge the quality of leadership. To judge a leader, one needs to look at the condition of the led before his arrival and after his departure. Whether you look at it in terms of economic, physical or territorial terms is entirely upto you. It makes things easier because one can get away from bullshit like symbols of resistance and embodiment of freedom struggle etc. It also removes the need to create what if scenarios and the familiar jewish conspiracies that wait for Osama`s latest video to be discounted(actually Osama is a Mossad agent who who has a crush on Urstruly and malik99 but that is another story altogether...)
When you apply that simple metric to all the ``heroes`` I listed in my earlier post and then some, you find out that they failed their people miserably. No wonder will they be consigned to the footnotes of history.

later
-sac