Altaf Hussain Visits India: His Keynote Speech

Harish-hyd,

I call Urdas only those people, a small minority of Pakistanis, who support this idiot you people are so passionate about. I don`t draw this distinction... nor do many so called `Mohajirs` or `Urdas`... it is elements like Altaf who draw this distinction.


AlephNull,

The point which clearly missed you was that Altaf Hussain is a lot like Dawood Ibrahim... just like we won`t believe Dawood Ibrahim on communal violence as he has no credibility Altaf has no credibility w.r.t democracy, freedom and human rights...

What Altaf Hussain did in Karachi was what Dawood Ibrahim couldn`t do in a hundred years in Mumbai... Dawood Ibrahim was a petty criminal who got international fame as a mobster... Altaf was a petty criminal who burnt the Pakistani flag and became famous as a leader of the people... As for your logic... then clearly something is really wrong with your country that keeps inviting criminals right and listening to and believing their sermons as the gospel of the truth.


Veeresh....

Then don`t you think you are better off talking to those Pakistanis, who are proud Pakistanis and want straight talk, no chaploosi, no double speak? They are ones who are genuine peaceniks... e.g. Dr. Mubashir Hassan... I doubt that there is a greater patriot in Pakistan and yet I doubt there is a greater peace activist in the subcontinent...

That is all I have been saying... talk to Pakistanis who are genuine in their sentiments... there are a number of Pakistanis, proud to be Pakistanis, who yet want peace with India and who know that lasting peace with India is essential... not just for Kumbaye nonsense, but for the future of our people... But what you`ve done, by being uncharitable and miserly, by presenting one side and not the other, is isolate people who were your best chance for peace... albeit on a small level... but there are many like you who are happy to cause this discord... You can start by mending the fences you so willingly destroyed for your own ego ...

But I know for a fact that you too believe in what the CEO of Pakistan said on that September evening in 2001... and that is the philosophy you are only too happy to implement every now and then...

-YLH

(warning--long post)

faisaluno #49:

….i would like to ask mqm boosters here a couple of questions…

…as is evident November 7 i-log i am not an mqm booster…but may i post my comments?

1-name one good thing their party has done for the citizens of karachi?

…it has given them a sense of identity

…we can spend ages to argue that those born in a post-partition and independent Pakistan cannot call themselves muhajirs…inconclusively…

…muhajirism is a declaration of cultural affinity, pride and identity...in exactly the same way a sindhi, baluchi, punjabi, or a pathan takes pride in his cultural affinity…

2-why has mqm not selected any non-muhajir candidates in karachi?
…why restrict it to Karachi only? MQM is active in the interior also…and at this point i cannot give you names…but I do recall reading there are non-muhajir candidates in its ranks…

…i recall reading about a debate in MQMs nascent stages…who is a muhajir? and the reply in their pamphlets and books echoed a similar response to who is a sindhi? in G M Syed’s pamphlets and books in those years…

…the response/reply was …a person or group whose wealth/fortune or body (after death) does not leave sindh

…this definition included everybody who had settled in sindh and call it their home…

3-given that altaf hussain is such a controversial figure, why cant he step aside for a leader more acceptable to other communities?

…step aside?..he should be tried in a fair court of law for his alleged excesses and transgressions…I did say ‘fair’…

…stepping aside or giving up power?…this is not only a muhajir dilemma…it isour dilemma…maybe it is in our muslim genes or psyche…we do not give up on power easily…

…mohterma bayzameer bhutto..chairperson for life…emperor sipah III…of the wardi kay peechay kya hay infamy…

…the day we learn that there is life after elections we would not be scorned world wide…

… people here talking about o.c. as some sort of mohajir calamity are painting a very one-sided picture. in my opinion o.c. is the best thing to happen to karachi and i will be eternally grateful to pak army for teaching mqm a lesson.

…one sided?....eternally grateful?

…what would thousands upon thousands of grieving mothers would make of this?

operation cleanup is a dark spot in pakistan’s history…much like the anti sikh riots in delhi after indira gandhi’s assassination or the more recent Modi instigated riots in gujrat…you know why?

…unless there is a free and fair trial…a process of visible accountability… gross injustices and violations of rights and laws would remain a black spot on our respective national identities…

…let there be a free and fair investigation of the role of the government of the day, the rangers and MQM…and let the guilty be proclaimed and punished to the full extent of the law…and then we can sit and talk about lessons learned…

rgds,

t

Romair #28

{{Altaf Bhai isn`t considered one. He is one. There are many criminal cases against him. The reason he isn`t coming to Pakistan is not because the govt. will do something to him. He is in alliance with the govt. He also isn`t returning because of anything Punjabis or Sindhis will do to him. He is not returning because his fellow Muhajirs will kill him. So many of them hate his guts (while so many love him also).}}

Romair, it’s normal in all cases of freedom struggle for the occupying power to consider the freedom fighters as criminals/terrorists, and their leaders as arch criminals/terrorists. So it’s not surprising that Altaf bhai has criminal cases registered against him by the occupying forces. But it is axiomatic in all cases of freedom struggle that the overwhelming majority (greater than 90%) of the atrocities, human right violations etc. are committed by the occupying forces. I have it on the very good authority of Chowk’s greatest living authority on human rights and freedom struggles, namely Romair. Therefore by Romairatic logic we know that in Karachi, just as in Baluchistan, most of the criminality, human rights abuses was actually committed by the Pakistani occupation forces, such as the Rangers and the Pakistan Army. QED

Mantolives #36

{{``Dawood Ibrahim`s Keynote address to a seminar on Indian Communal Violence in Islamabad``

Howz that?}}

I hope you’ll let us know when this address will be delivered, so that the international press can be in attendance with video cameras to conclusively document Dawood bhai’s presence in Pakistan. You do know that there is an Interpol red-corner notice out for him, don’t you?

Incidentally your Generalissimo Pervez Musharraf - a much greater criminal than Altaf, responsible for the avoidable deaths of thousands if not tens of thousands of Pakistanis, a usurping military dictator to boot - came to India at the invitation of Vajpayee’s government, was wined and dined, then abused his hosts’ graciousness by extemporizing in front of a group of idiot journalists. So a precedent of sorts does exist for having disreputable Pakistanis – and muhajirs at that - deliver pompous sermons in India. Altaf bhai is by no means the first.

Yasser ji . . . on Altaf Hussain`s visit to India . . . I really wonder why many Pakistanis are getting agitated about this. So Altaf makes a remark about a reverse migration, undoing Partition, let him. Sagacity is called for, not excited jumping jack flash, no?

Let me quote from something which many of us know about, in India as well as in Pakistan . . . and let us keep Hindu/Muslim, wife/mother, Kashmir, Nehru/Jinnah et al out of this?

Keep it only to Islam, please, because as an Indian, I have as much right to an Islamic heritage as anybody else, maybe more actually than people in Pakistan because Muslims are safer and better off in India, so on this basis of equality, I wish to take this discourse further . . . and quote from a speech given by the CEO of Pakistan not long ago . . . and read his friend Altaf Hussain`s impassioned plea for reverse migration (to Agra??!! Apart from the Taj, Agra is also famous for its mental asylum, by the way . . .)

+++

``````The significance of migration is manifested from the fact that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) went from Makkah to Madina. He (PBUH) migrated to safeguard Islam. What was migration? God forbid, was it an act of cowardice. The Holy Prophet (PBUH) signed the charter of Madinah (Meesaq-e-Madinah) with the Jewish tribes. It was an act of sagacity. This treaty remained effective for six years. Three battles were fought with non-believers of Makkiah during this period - the battle of Badr, Uhad and Khandaq. The Muslims emerged victorious in these battles with the non-believers of Makkah because the Jews had signed a treaty with the Muslims. After six years, the Jews were visibly disturbed with the progress of Islam, which was getting stronger and stronger. They conspired to forge covert relations with the non-believers of Makkah.

Realising the danger, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) signed the treaty of Hudaibiya with the Makkhans who had been imposing wars on Islam. This was a no war pact. I would like to draw your attention to one significant point of this pact. The last portion of the pact was required to be signed by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as Muhammad Rasool Allah. The non-believers contested that they did not recognize Muhammad (PBUH) as the Prophet of Allah. They demanded to erase these words from the text of the treaty. The Holy Prophet (PBUH) agreed but Hazrat Umar (R.A) protested against it. He got emotional and asked the Holy Prophet (PBUH) if he was not the messenger of God (God forbid) and whether the Muslims were not on the right path while signing the treaty.

The Holy Prophet (PBUH) advised Hazrat Umar (R.A) not to be led by emotions as the dictates of national thinking demanded signing of the treaty at that time. He (PBUH) said, this was advantageous to Islam and as years would pass by you would come to know of its benefits. ``This is exactly what happened. Six months later in the battle of Khyber, Muslims, by the grace of Allah, again became victorious.

It should be remembered that this became possible because Makkhans could not attack because of the treaty. On 8 Hijra by the grace of Allah glory of Islam spread to Makkah. What is the lesson for us in this? The lesson is that when there is a crisis situation, the path of wisdom is better than the path of emotions. Therefore, we have to take a strategic decision````.

+++

The importance of this strategy to Pakistan, and the fact that we in India are also aware of such attempts in India, was explained to me last night by a rather senior person within the cloak and dagger community. The fact that this person is a Muslim, sure, just makes the explanation more . . . logical?

as a son of mqm voter and as karachite who grew up playing tape-ball cricket in the streets n.nazimabad/nazimabad during the rise of mqm, i would like to ask mqm boosters here a couple of questions:

1-name one good thing their party has done for the citizens of karachi?
2-why has mqm not selected any non-muhajir candidates in karachi?
3-given that altaf hussain is such a controversial figure, why cant he step aside for a leader more acceptable to other communities?

also by my assessment, the current nazim, another mohajir btw, has accomplished more in his short tenure than mqm did in all its time it spent in power. i would like to ask mqm members here what they intend to do in future that will enable me to change my assessment?

also wrt operation cleanup, my mohajir relatives and my former mohajir co-workers that lived in places like n.karachi, azizabad, f.b. area were really glad that army did what it did even when in instances their own family members were taken away for questioning. so people here talking about o.c. as some sort of mohajor calamity are painting a very one-sided picture. in my opinion o.c. is the best thing to happen to karachi and i will be eternally grateful to pak army for teaching mqm a lesson.

Veeresh,

I am going to try and address one civil post to you... though I don`t expect any from you.

Only Altaf Hussain considers ``Mohajirs`` outsiders.... most Pakistanis living in Karachi, whose parental roots lie on the other side of the border, have rejected him... to the Rest of us ... they are all Karachiites... who have done really well for themselves... whether in education, health, government etc... my inlaws don`t even like to be called `Mohajirs` for example... and this is how it is...

Read my post 29... and on another note please acknowledge that the world doesnot exist in the stark realities that you try and portray... (to give an irrelevant example... if you will find certain places in Lahore to be male dominated, you will find as many streets and marketplaces that are completely women domianted e.g. Anarkali etc, if you find Indian-hating fanatics, you will find many like me who just want to get along despite people like you, if you find an occasional box for religious fundraising, you will find as many for blood donor agencies and shaukat khanum.)


Friend,

Why is it that your entire purpose of existence on this website is to initiate a dialogue with me, which I am not interested in... Thankyou for kind attention. `

May I add however it was utterly indecent of you to bring my mother (and now a grandmother), who has been an exceptionally productive part of society as a doctor and a social worker (unlike you, a disgusting internet vulture, or Veeresh, a car mechanic wannabe) who has never interacted on this site with people like you into this... but it is your prerogative, and you are free to do so... Now I admit that I too have indulged in yo momma jokes ... when I was 16 .. or mybe 19... but it seems that your kind does not get the high position that a mother enjoys in life... despite your age and experience....

I suppose this is the respect of women in the Indian society... no wonder according to a report released by UNESCO Yesterday... your country had the largest number of illiterates in the world... a whopping 34% of the world`s illiterate... 23 percentage points higher than China`s contribution ... and several folds higher than Pakistan... But... if they counted social and emotional illiterates like you... the percentage I am sure would be even higher...

Yes Now please go and dig up my posts from 4 years ago...

-YLH

#29 by Mantolives

[Actually there are no Mohajirs...]

No Mohajirs?? Were you not the one who was cribbing on this very board about how the URDAs (or Mohajirs) had imposed their language upon you ``indigenous`` Pakistanis (whatever that meant)?

wrt Partition, those who belonged to the lower strata got the worst anyways regardles of hether they were Hindus, Sikhs, Christians or Muslims. This was 2 generations ago, enough time to get along with life and move upwards.

The re-integration rate, however, seems to be better in India. There is hardly any original inhabitant versus refugee thing left in North India or West Bengal anymore during, for example, elections or marriage proposals.

The violent emotions generated for or against Altaf Hussain by Pakistanis because he is still considered an ``outsider``, 57 years later, is something that would have shocked me had I not gone through my short Pakistan 101 earlier this year.

All the same, it was very interesting to spot Imran Khan and others, including members of the Pakistani establishment present in Delhi, waiting avidly on Altaf Hussain.

On another tack. The average television watcher in India who used to think of Pakistan as this very homogeneous united entity where all Muslims lived in some sort of permanent love and joy with each other will never view Pakistan with the same single-lens view again.

Yasser/35 - no. It was supposed to be a satirical column and ran for five years before I got tired of other retards & idiots also asking me the same question. To give you due credit, you are the first one to do so from Pakistan.

justic4all/40 - nobody denies that India is a country in a state of constant flux, including freedom movements. And there are probably much more than 18 only.

Actually, if, as Babboo-e-Gulburger suggests, Dawood does appear as a keynote speaker for, say, Dawn, then it will for once and for all prove that what the Indians said was correct, that Dawood was/is in Clifton, Karachi.

Vaise, the nett-nett of Altaf Hussain`s visit to India for the Hindustan Times do - whether to meet his co-workers or to sign vouchers for expenses or to just visit Ranchi - is that many of us here in India are getting to see the mote in Pakistan`s eye too. Hello, and we used to think that Pakistan was this one big United Way nation, cleavages rampant outside Lahore RS not-withstanding. Now we know you get together only when I write about the Karachi or Lahore . . . vaise part 2, do read what Ayaz Amir has to say on the subject too?

While the debate on Pathan versus Mohajir versus Punjabi versus etcetc in Pakistan is something of the sort that we are used to in India, having a larger spread of communitiis and religions and languages (Madrasi versus Punjabi versus Bungali versus Gujarati versus Bhaiyya etcetc) what we find more amusing is the fact that much of the Pakistani establishment present in Delhi during Altaf Hussain`s speech sat through in rapt concentration.

So, all in all, this has been a fairly jovial pre-festival week. The clowns have spoken, now the circus follows.

http://specials.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/09minister.htm


from the fountainhead of saffron since the times of sivajis bgawat against Alamgir Aurangjeb..

2 muslim ministers among 12 in maharastra cabinet.

no reason why muhajirs cannot get appropriate representation by political process.

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/nov-2004/9/editorials2.php

The Nation, Pakistan
Tuesday, November 9, 2004

EDITORIAL
Altaf in India

MR Altaf Hussain travelled half the world to reach India to speak his mind on the state of affairs in Pakistan, which he last saw in 1992 before going into self-exile. In an interview on the sidelines of the Hindustan Times’ Leadership Initiative, which he also addressed in New Delhi, he made remarks which cannot go unnoticed. Not only did he describe India as home where he felt ‘spiritually elated’ but also said had he been around at the time of Partition, he would have voted against it. This was bound to cause widespread resentment back home especially when he made this statement in a country perceived as not accepting the very foundation of Pakistan. And his stand is no less disturbing than that taken by some religious parties which strongly opposed the creation of Pakistan. Mr Hussain must note that 57 years down the line they all are still trying to live down their role at Partition.

Either Mr Hussain seriously believes Partition was a mistake, or he opposed it for the consumption of the local audience from whom he would not have won kudos otherwise. Both ways it shows disrespect for a country he was born in, after his family migrated from Agra, and where in the province of Sindh his party is a major coalition partner. “Today I am in India because I have been honest in pursuing my ideology, my philosophy”, he said, adding, “Tomorrow when the people of Pakistan will understand my message and call for my return the establishment will have to change its policies”. It is not clear why he wants to return to Pakistan if he is so strongly opposed to its creation. Is it only the absence of ‘true democracy’, as he pointed out, that keeps hindering his homecoming for sometime? Taking credit for giving the country a middle class leadership, he wants to return home to end feudalism and ethno-linguistic particularism in Pakistan even though espousing the cause of Sindh’s Urdu-speaking migrants always remained the basis of his politics. One can only assume that he has overstated his position for dramatic effect. This is liable to create misunderstandings, which a senior national leader would best avoid. Mr Hussain is the voice of a significant portion of Pakistan’s population, and he has a responsibility towards his supporters.

As for Ms Benazir Bhutto and Mian Nawaz Sharif he regards neither as truly representative of the poor, though he remained a coalition partner of both in the past. There were quite a few other contradictions in his interview. On the one hand he is a very strong advocate of democratic rule while on the other he supports the President remaining in uniform. If the government considers him its coalition partner it has to do a lot of explaining about what he said in India, and how it is going to react to it. There must also be some explanation about Islamabad’s refusal to renew his Pakistani passport.

labyrinth1 #34: I think much of what you have stated is accurate. However, quite a bit is no longer true. I will highlight the parts that I think do not hold any longer:

``there are always fundo - bhata taking people - they are in MQM - they are in PML and they are in PPP supported by the Politicians - thats a reality we have to accept it``

I don` think this is accurate. PPP and PML have never been known for bhatta. I have never had to face it in Lahore, Pindi or Peshawar. The worst one sees is Jamaat taking out processions now and then, which turn a bit violent. MQM ran an full-fledged organized bhatta system in Karachi. It was like the dada-geeri one sees in Indian movies. Like the mafia in the USA.

``Altaf Hussein is not the oppressor at all , If he would be Afaq wont be alive !``

Afaq and his colleagues, much like Altaf Hussain, run around worried for thier lives; worried when they will get killed. MQM(s) have killed and torchered quite a few of each others` people. There was a time, when every other day people were being targeted in Karachi. I have met mild-mannered Muhajir housewife(s) who say they will kill Altaf Hussain, if they see him. He is dearly loved by some Muhajirs and deeply hated by others.

``MQM represents more then 95% of Urdu Speakings in Sind - look at Karachi the only seat which is out of MQM reach is of Leyari``

This was definitely true for a long time. MQM would sweep Karachi by the largest vote of anyone in Pakistan. Altaf Hussain could nominate a donkey, and it would won. It is no longer true. For the past few elections, MQM has lost seats. It is still easily the most popular party in Karachi. But PML and MMA (and PPP) have made inroads. This time MQM lost some seats. I would say it represents around 60%+ Urdu speakers now.

If what you say about the MQM reforming itself is correct, then that is a good sign. However, I am always suspect of parties that have lifetime Presidents like Benazir Bhutto and Altaf Hussain. They rarely reform themselves. They are usually there only to serve to satisfy the desires of their President and his/her closest associates. If MQM kicks out Altaf Hussain and his team and democratically elects new leadership on a regular basis, it would be a good party.............because it does have a lot of appealing qualities also....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#35 Manto
Why are you obsessed with Veeresh`s marriage? Did he reject a marraige proposal from your mom?

Manto mian,
Kyuki chowk kaa aapke liye koi soft korner hai, mein apki jabaan mein hi puch letaa hun. Kya Vireesh nei apki ammi-jan se nikah ke liye manaa kar dya hai jo app uske talaq ke pichhe pade hain..

Agaar yeh baat nahin to kya aap veeresh se nikah karna chahte hain? aur yaa sarwari begum pareshaan hain apse aur who veeresh ko chahti hain?