My Family Reunion

dost-mittar #39
I WAS talking of secession and I did not expect an honest answer anyway, thanks.

Dost-mitter,

In #27 you write:`` But I do make a difference between faith and religion.``
In #39 you write: ``I do differentiate between faith and its adherents``

Again you claim that you have not indulged in moral equivalency and then write that Urstruly would have been a modi-thakrey fan. What you have implied is that the mullahs
of P*kiland are the equivalent of modi-thackrey etc. No moral equivalency eh ?

The problem is that you are not expressing the truth which your heart and mind knows.
You feel guilty about it - so you indulge in all this verbal calisthenics to try and please
the P*kis. Neither are you doing yourself any good nor are you providing the P*kis truthful feedback.

Please dont assume that I am picking on you. This is just a debate - but you should
definitely focus on telling the truth. That truth may piss of the P*kis - but so what ?

Regards,

Dost-mitter, You wrote: ``Now, the only religion that appeals to me is Buddhism``

- Do you know that the Buddha also assumes the varna system ? :)
Do you know the rites and rituals of the various bouddha sampradayas ?

You have internalized self-hatred. Maybe you should not just plainly accept what
is written in one book or another. Maybe you should read multiple books on a subject,
read the originals and then focus on crystalizing your thoughts....
just my 2 cents.

Urstrulay#29:
Yes, our generation has failed you just as our previous generation of Jinnah, Gandhi, Nehru, etc. failed us. It`s up to you to ensure that your children are not able to say the same to you.

anil:
The feelings as a teenager were for obvious reasons. Later, when I learnt more about the holocaust on this side, I gained a more balanced perspective. My aversion to religion started with the rituals and superstitions and inequities of my religion of birth; when I studied abrahmic religion, I was unimpressed by their rigidity and arrogance. Now, the only religion that appeals to me is Buddhism (but I am also impressed by his contemporary and nemesis, Carvic because of his rebellious philosophy though not much is written about him).

satyamvada:
...I am sure Urstruly will agree with you!
I do not make any moral equivalency, whatsoever. I do differentiate between faith and its adherents. Most of us identify with our faith because of the reason of birth and stick to those identities because we find them comforting. The rest is a matter of individual nature; I have a feeling that if Urstruly were a hindu, he probably would have been of the Modi-Thakray variety. If all muslims followed quran to the letter, they would be migrating out of the decadent west or raising a jihad against it, instead of being law-abiding citizens that most of them are.

sadna:
Thanks for answering your own questions.
I think that the hindus in minority areas can best safeguard themselves by identifying themselves with the aspirations of the majority (unless that aspiration means secession). Thus, in panjab, they should support panjabi language and the panjab stand wrt Chandigarh and Water issue. And the hindus elsewhere can help by being more sensitive to the minority feelings by not promoting people like Tytler and Sajjan Kumar who are bete noir for them

dost-mittar
Thanks for sharing these painful personal memories.

The region has seen such humanitarian disasters repeated in so many contexts since the mother of them all:(.

Just a question for the sake of argument- when Sikhs want East Punjab to themselves or Muslims want J&K to themselves, what would you advise Hindus of those regions to do?
1. Convert
2. Leave and settle in rest of India and forget
3. Leave and settle in rest of India and forget because `Hindus are always responsible for everything`
4. Leave and settle in rest of India and make sure to give Muslims/Sikhs in rest of India a similarly rough time
5. Fight to remain ?

3. is the `pseudo-psecularist` approach and 4. is the Advani approach. 1,2,3, 4 all tend to perpetuate the situation.

Pre-emptively refusing to accept simplistic religious identity-based bromides( like TNT or Hindutva) about complex issues is the correct option, IMO.

The onus for doing this in India lies on all Indians, obviously. At the same time Indian `pseudo-psecularists` need to stop giving a `let` to the perpetuation of such bromides by Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.

Dost-mitter,

You are the worst kind of dhimmi. You are an intellectually dishonest person.
On the one hand you badmouth the very people who may have helped to save
you by creating all kinds of false equivalencies. Then you try your manipulation
in differentiating between ``religion`` and its followers - without acknowledging that
what people of ``religion`` do is merely follow what is written in their book.

Your intentions is probably - to try and please the P*kis by saying ``we are all
the same`` etc etc - without having the guts to tell the truth.

Satyam vada - tell the truth

Dear Dost-Mitter:

Touching narration of the journey down the memory lane. More interesting is your response to Farzana:

``When I was a teenager, Modi and Thackray would have been my heroes. When I matured, this hatred morphed into an aversion towards all religions and this aversion continues to this date. I do not buy the pablum that all religions essentially carry the same message of love, peace and tolerance and instead consider religion to be a major cause of bloodspilling in the world history. But I do make a difference between faith and religion. ``

This transformation I have seen among many of my friends, may be you can share what made you change as you grew from a teenager to a young man``. In my case, as a teenager, I had started rebelling against my father`s strict approach toward religion, so I would never have made Modi or Thackray as my heros. Also, as a student in England I came across wonderful muslim families and friends who were there for three students living alone in a house. I also encountered extremenly religious muslim students from India and Paksitan, seeing their religiousity, repelled me that I can never be a hinud version of such people. As I grow older, I once again see a transition in me, but this time more toward spiritualism.

Anil

Detached, dispassionate and with an absence of malice but still utterly moving. There is a friend of our family who stays in London. He too was 8 years old at that time but he still sometime wakes up screaming at night. The memories of seeing his parents beheaded in front of his eyes still haunts him. The funny thing is that he has no animosity towards the other side as compared to people who did not suffer the way he did.

i apologize if it sounds like a callous statement, however, for a vast majority of indians (and pakis) the partition was a peaceful, and for some a lucrative event. so the partition event was not the same level as wwII for the germans or the brits etc. that is why it is unlikely that indans and pakis wold have ``learnt`` from it. i have talked to folks not involved in the rougher aspects of the partition, and i have heard a lot of petty stuff mostly. stuff like, ``we left, and i had requested them to mail my clothed over later, and wired money for the postage, but they never did``, or ``those sindhis got a lot of help from Morarjis Bombay Presidency govt, the same govt shot at the protestors who wanted a larger Maharashtra (including Belgaum).

its heartwarming to hear from that generation folks that they do remember the 15-th aug fondly and apparently there was much joy and celberation even in small towns. e.g. old folks talk of how the streets were cleaned with jhadu, and water was sprinkled so that they would be less dusty, and there were much traditoinal decorations etc.

Farzana #25,

I would not go so far as to say that the pre-partition generation considers the acrimony
futile. Entire careers have been built on such animosity. People internalise this level of
violence in their own way - Dost`s version of events would most certainly be different
from Advani`s version. Unfortunately, Indians in their 20s have essentially accepted
Advani`s version. As an aside, it is interesting that religious riots nowadays occur in
places which were not really affected by partition.

I agree with Shandana in that a real subaltern history of partition needs to be
written/compiled from eyewitness accounts. It will be cathartic and most definitely educational. We`ve had enough of Jinnah said this/Gandhi did that - does not get us
anywhere.

Urstruly #29,

Perhaps I am more of an optimist that you are. Partition was a seismic event; it will take
more time to heal the scars. By the way, I don`t think Dost was demonizing any
community in his narrative. We need a lot more of these to get the process started.

man enough of your crappola about india-pak already...

Re:dost-mittar #28

You are right. The only explanation is that there was mass-scale temporary insanity on both sides. There are always religious bigots like jay and urstruly types but they are a small minority. Most people do not get consumed by religious hatred. Something happened at that time, maybe it was the fear of unknown in a post-British subcontinent, that resulted in all the communities totally losing their minds. The really strange thing is that today the same people are hugging and kissing each other when they meet. Virtually anyone who visits the other side, gets overwhelmed by the love and affection they recieve. Even shopkeepers don`t take money from the ``guests``. Yet these were the same people butchering each other in trains leaving for the other side. Who can explain these mind-boggling extremes?

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Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Unfortunately, what happened in 1947 has been repeated several times in both countries. Dost Mitter, your generation has failed us. Instead of working towards a peaceful world where such mistakes would never be repeated you sowed the seeds of hatred with your perpetual injustice and your arrogance to refuse to admit that you have even committed an injustice. Today when these seeds of hatered have grown into strong trees, the new generations will not settle for anything less than complete nuclear anihilation of the other. Such hatered, such fatalism, and such arrogance does not come into being by itself. There is someone who worked very hard and with persistence to turn the new generation into what they are. Today we are at a point where the feel-good, feel-sorry articles like these are neither cathartic nor heeling. But they are not meaningless either. They actually re-enforce our belief that the other is THE demon.

What a disappointment.

amit:
``Did they think that they needed to get the area cleared of minorities as soon as possible to consolidate partition? After all, prior to 1947, there had been very few incidents of large scale rioting or other atrocities. So what was the reason for this madness? I wonder if someone can analyze the behavior of the people at that time.``

Perhaps, a part of the motivation was to clear the area of minorities but this wouldn`t explain the slaughter of trains and attacks on caravans of refugees leaving the new country. If it were a completely rational act, it would have made more sense to attack the houses but let the trains and caravans leave peacefully, so that the people would be encouraged to flee their unsafe abodes. I think that it was a case of religious identity run amock with primal, tribal instincts completely taking over any rational thinking. The virus of hatred infected the high and the mighty as much as it affected the meek and weak.

platz8:
No, I haven`t heard her yet.

rahulmal:
[``The RSS volunteers started to collect food and blankets for some refugee camp for the Hindus and Sikhs at Chiniot.``

I wonder how people like you who have gone through the trauma of partition don`t support RSS.]

From what I read, the RSS is quite efficient even now in organizing relief efforts whenever a natural tragedy occurs. A large part of the funds collected by the organizations, such as Tamil Tigers, Hamaz and various jihadi organisations is used for humanitarian causes. While the RSS, to my knowledge, has not been conclusively involved in any murderous activities, the one-sided history of India and the ideology of demonising muslims that it preaches scars impressionable yound minds. This makes it difficult for someone like me to support the organization.

Thank you everyone for your kind remarks. Many of you have remarked about the detached aspect of the narrative. All I can say is that this was so long ago that I almost disassociate myself from that 8-year old boy in the story. I could easily have written it in the third instead of the first person.

Dear Farzana:
An event like that cannot leave a child unscarred. I certainly don`t think that I am not carrying deep scars somewhere. As Ghalib said,
Sab kahaan kuchh lala-o-gul mein numaaiyaan ho gaye!
When I was a teenager, Modi and Thackray would have been my heroes. When I matured, this hatred morphed into an aversion towards all religions and this aversion continues to this date. I do not buy the pablum that all religions essentially carry the same message of love, peace and tolerance and instead consider religion to be a major cause of bloodspilling in the world history. But I do make a difference between faith and religion.

kaurasach:
Thanks for sharing the experience of your elders. It takes courage in admitting that people who participated in the holocaust were not strangers. I think that they too were vicitms - victims of the forces of hatred unleashed by people with their political agendas in far-away places.