The Troubled History of Jews

NHK #various: Talk to your nearest Rabi on the subject.¡¨

I thought you were the nearest Rabi :-) Thanks for the info, though.

It still does not clear up the anamoly of how an orthodoxy, which is run by European Jews, i.e. Jews not from the promised land, can demand a return to the promised land. While simultaneously, suggesting that one¡¦s mother has to be Jewish, to be considered Jewish.

``The Arabs living in Israel have full rights``

I think you are over-simplifying the issue. How familiar are you with the Arabs living in Israel, outside of what you have read on the website you mentioned?

To the best of my knowledge, and after having talked, in detail with Arabs (Christian and Muslims), who just moved from Israel/Palestine, there are actually four levels of Arabs in Israel:

- The first group are the Arab Jews, who have full and equal rights in Israel. They, along with other non-white Jews (I believe) constitute the majority of the Jewish population. However, they are generally behind, in all fields, in comparison to White Jews. I don¡¦t think any of them has ever been a PM of Israel.

- The second group are the Arab Christian and Muslims who have been given full citizenship in Israel. They have almost the same rights as the Arab Jews. They are not allowed to have their relatives migrate to Israel, like the Arab Jews are. Other than that, they have full rights, and have their representatives in the Knesset.

- The third group are Arab Christians and Muslims who live in Jerusalem (and perhaps some other areas), but are not the citizens of Israel. Israel covets Jerusalem deeply. These Arabs have to have been living in Jerusalem, in the same house for hundreds of years. However these Arabs are not allowed to purchase any property, nor are they even allowed to add a room onto the houses they have owned for generations. They have to have a special permit to work, as well.

They have become H-1B type workers in their own land.

The Christian Arab I talked with told me that he wanted to get married, but could not add a room to his house. He would have to move to the occupied territories to get accommodation. However, if he moved, then he would lose his rights to work. He said there are Jews offering a lot of money to Arabs who will sell their house. And that life for Arabs has been made so frustrating that people end up selling their houses, and moving abroad.

- The fourth category are the Arabs who live in the occupied territories. These Arabs are basically of refugee status, and are considered under the occupation of Israel. Their rights are less than the rights of the Jerusalem Arabs. They primarily live in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel covets their land also, and has built housing societies all over their lands. Only Jews are allowed access to the roads that go to these housing societies (i.e. settlements).

``In my opinion, the Palestinians are on the wrong track and have wasted 56 years. They could keep on wasting more years. Living in peace with Israel would have benefitted them a lot.``¨

I think it is human nature to resist when someone occupies your land/house etc. If I came and tried to take over your house, I assume you would resist. Or would you just give it to me? Occupation should never be morally considered justifiable. Otherwise, all the qabza groups in Pakistan are legal.

However, the Palestinians should accept the inevitable, as you have suggested, and realize they have been defeated. Or at least, live to fight another day. I think most of them have accepted that. They are willing to agree to 22% of the total land that they once owned, before 1948. However, Israel is not even agreeing to that. The Palestine that Israel is agreeing to is a Buntastan with Israeli controlled areas. Kind of like giving Lahore to someone, while keeping control of the Mall Road and Defence and all entrances to the Motorway.

``What is this drama of a nation? The idea of nation states is once again getting vaguer in the world thanks to EU. An average man wants to simply live in peace and have a good life``

This is true, but the restrictions of a nation-state have been enforced more by Israel than anyone else. There are many Palestinians who are willing to live in one greater Israel. But Israel does not agree. Israel is thus unwilling to let the Arabs live in Israel. And it is unwilling to give them a viable state of their own.

¨About the return of all Palestinians into Israel? It has a demographic element to it. If Israel does this and still wants to have a democracy, it will turn into a minority once again. It does not want that to happen.``

Right of return is a concept that has been accepted by all Western nations. Eskimos in Canada are being compensated for any crimes and displacements against them. Native Americans in the USA have and are being compensated. As are abrigones in Australia. None of them are being forced to leave their lands, any longer. And are being given special rights in lands their ancestors owned.

The demographic element of Israel goes against the basic concept of secularism, that everyone seems to push (when it is suitable). If one believes in secularism (as I believe you do), then one cannot make decisions based on religious demographics. I am sure you will agree that the laws in Israel are some of the most non-secular in the world. Some of them, in my opinion, are based on religious apartheid. Based on growth rates, some day in the very distant future, the Arab Muslim citizens of Israel will outnumber the Jewish citizens. What will happen then? How will Israel control the demographics?

I think this whole conflict is the result of what happens when people of one religion make decisions purely on their own religious beliefs, and not on practical and fair reasoning. One can make an argument that the Jews who actually lived in the Middle East could have a right to their own state, in the area. But how in the world could a, ``White¨ European claim rights to land, where no one even looked like him/her.

I have always felt that the whole world, and the Jews, would have been much better off had they asked for a state in North America. Rather than rely on religion and ask for it in the Middle East. And even with an independent Palestine, I think the common man of the 22 Arab countries will just be marking his/her time waiting for their countries to get into the first world and then re-attacking Israel. And I am not sure whether 4 million Jews, in one country, will be able to take on 250 million Arabs, in 22 countries, indefinitely.

Israel would be well-advised to accept the 22% that the Palestinians want, and negotiate something on the right of return (perhaps by financially compensating the displaced Palestinians) and realize that its future lies in an alliance with its geographical neighbors, not with countries an ocean away.

It has been matter of fact that all the nations no matter jews,chirstian or anyother nation suffered vth problem against muslims.And this is all muslims fault rather ruling on them muslims made them rule on ourself.It wasn`t done intenionally it happened unintenionally.And in one other sense we can call it muslims mistakes when they didn`t confess whats going on around for what jews or christian or any third nation are forcing to favour them either in MIDDLE EAST or in SUB-CONTINENT.After ruling such a long time on world its embarrasing to ask other countries to do something in our country.No matter either we belong to pakistan,saudia arabia turkeey egypt syrea or anyother muslim country.
And i would like to add about the ruler of PHALISTINE.He never tried to get his country back for muslims rather giving it to isreal.
He is dead so better i would keep my mouth shut

re:#68 by amit
You seem to reduce the Jews to a single class of people: all ambitious, narrow minded blah blah blah.
This is far from the truth. Jews, like Hindus, are a disparte group. There are some very traditional jews while there are some very broad minded jews who do not care much about their religion and are very secular in their outlook. These jews have intermarried with other religious groups (one chinese Fellow i once knew, who was training to become an Orthopedician, married a jewish colleague). One of the things that some Jewish organizations in USA worry about is this group of secular jews who are just blending into the mainstream.

``As a people they are paranoid and are always trying to beat the system for their interests, perhaps as a result of their history of persecution.``
Let us just say that the Jewish lobby in USA is successful because they are focussed and united. Of late, Indian lobby is working with the Jewish groups, so Indians should not be complaining! Jews never forget (and rightly so) what happened to them over the last several centuries, especially what the Nazism did to them. This is not paranoia but good sense. India went through 8 centuries of exploitation and destruction at the hands of muslims yet Hindus have not build even a single memorial to their fallen heroes the way Jews have built a `` holocaust museum``. In the end, Hindus are plain stupid to think that the problem will go away because they don`t think about it. The age old antagonism of hindus versus muslims still exist but in a different form today. While it is good to make new friends, it is foolish to forget history and not learn any lessons from it.

``In the same vein, Isreali nationalism is a narrow religion/ethnicity based nationalism as compared to other democratic countries that have embraced secularism.``
You are again wrong here. Jews have for millenia dreamed of a homeland. So, that homeland had crystallized in their minds much before it became a historical reality. They are in a different category because they were so much persecuted over the ages and deserved a homeland. You can`t blame them for being persecuted! That is what u are doing. Should hindus in India then persecute the Parsees because they too are a close religious group (with narrow minded religious affiliations) and are immensely successful?
Israel is secular to the extent their law allows it to be. Israelis of Arabic origin can vote and have equal rights as far as i know. But, Israel is also fighting a battle against enemies who belong to a certain religious affiliations, so it can`t afford to be very liberal.

``Most Israelis know in their hearts that what they have done to the Palestinian people is wrong and unjust. Yet seldom do you hear any Israeli plan to compensate the Palestinians or try to work something out for them.``
Israel has retaliated to terrorism the way India retaliated to terrorism sponsored by the Paki army from across LOC. Only a lot more brutally and effectively. You can`t blame them for that. Terrorism has to be defeated in a brutal fashion. There is no other way.
Palestenian people brought it among themselves. Their cause may be just but killing innocent people thr` suicide bombers is not the way to fight for a cause. They could have looked at some peaceful ways of fighting for a cause, the way Gandhi did or Martin Luther King did. But they made a mistake in following the dictates of that terrorist Yasser Arafat. In the battle of brutality, only the more powerful wins. Palestenians brought it upon themselves by opting for a brute battle with the Goliath in the region.

``Our leadership starting with Gandhi focused on inclusion and secular ideals, which is why India is respected so much all over the world and is on the path to becoming a major world power``
China, not India, is the rising star and is being watched with interest (and not without some trepidation) in the West. Most people do not think India really matters. India, a major world power! That must be a joke. Living in India, u are perhaps divorced from reality. India just about manages to take on a puny little country like Pakistan which keeps giving it a lot of grief. Do u really think India can be a world power?
Sridhar

re:#69 by dost-mittar
``I do differ with you regard to the Hindus. I think that their docility is sometimes mistaken as tolerance. ``
Docility is better than stupidity. Palestenians are brave! What the heck, their youth is so brave that it is blowing itself away for a cause. Brave or Stupid? I think the latter.
Sridhar

just to point out to those who are perhaps understandably not aware: ``red indians`` are not referred to as such anymore. they are referred to as american indians or native americans now.

i understand that we grew up in a time where we read books that referred to them as such in pakistan, but to the native americans that i know, referring to them as ``red indians`` is derogatory, it`s like continuing to call an african-american a ``negro``. just thought i`d point that out. :)

NHK Various

This is a very interesting argument you make. Out of sick Ottoman Empire came Israel and Saudi. KSA is a big land ruled by an arbotrary tribe, but there was never any protest, except some inter-tribal conflics. But israel is different because 1) not muslims and 2) europeans (colonials). The nature of various regime from human rights perspective is irrelevant.

Jamshed # 70

Palestinians Vs Israel

This has to be seen in the historical perspective. Palestine is a geographical name (given by the Romans to the Kingdom of Israel & Judia) which was inhibited both the Arabs and Jews. The Jews were in majority. It is not to be confused with the ancient Philistine tribe that lived in areas around Gaza. So the Jewish people have a historical claim. Obviously the Jews have been exiled from there more than once.

Israel was as arbitrary a country as other countries in the Middle East. Their only figment of legitimacy is the UN. The same legitimacy holds true for Israel.

As for the only on-going oppression of the Palestinianbs and the suicide bombings by the Palestinians in Israel, it is a chicken & egg story. Both sides have their justifications. If the Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hizbullah refuse to even accept Israel, what do you expect Israel to do? The Muslim militants have only brought more miseries to their common man.

At times, I get surprised why the Japenese & Germans after the WW2 did not take up arms against the conquerer - the USA. Instead, they lived under its occupation, rebuilt themselves and are now again on the world stage. The Muslims are passing though a phase of their existance where instead of chasing shadows, they should look inwards, reform themselves, have an accommodating outlook as citizens of this earth and rise out of ignorance.

History is cruel but the sensible course is to get into the flow of history and cash on; rather than flow against it and destroy yourself.

Should the Red Indians take up arms against USA or plan to rule the USA through the system of USA?

nhk

Dr Riq # 73

History moves with its own momentum & forces. It is neither fair nor logical. Why the small Saud Tribe got the entire Arabia? Or why the Shareef of Mecca guys got Trans Jordan and Iraq? Or why Karzai is ruling Afghanistan?

All states that came out of the Ottoman were artificial and arbitrary. Statesmanship is to have the farsight and wisdom to assess correctly and cash on the oppurunity. After all, the Arabs & The Jews are the descendents of same Abraham. The Jews had their own kingdom centuries earlier and had a right. The Philistine tribe was just a small tribe. The term Palestine was coined by the Romans and it did not mean the place of the Philistine tribe.

The Arabs living in Israel have full rights. The Palestinians who left Israel in 1948 and disperesed to other Arab countries were never given citizenship rights. Hizbullah & Hamas still want to sink Israel into the sea.

In my opinion, the Palestinians are on the wrong track and have wasted 56 years. They could keep on wasting more years. Living in peace with Israel would have benefitted them a lot. What is this drama of a nation? The idea of nation states is once again getting vaguer in the world thanks to EU. An average man wants to simply live in peace and have a good life.

About the return of all Palestinians into Israel? It has a demographic element to it. If Israel does this and still wants to have a democracy, it will turn into a minority once again. It does not want that to happen. It will permit some genuine cases to return.

Obove is just a few jumbled up ideas. It actually needs more details and discussion. Wikipedia is good because it gives both sides of story unlike the pure Muslim sites or the pure Jewish sites.

More later if I get time.

nhk

Romair # 72

Conversion to Judaism.

As I said, in general terms, being of a Jewish mother is the consideration. But this is not the ONLY consideration. There are different sects with their own variations. It is a complex subject and a subject by itself.

Talk to your nearest Rabi on the subject.

nhk

There seems to be an in-built contradiction in an certain arguments that have been presented here:

It is very difficult to convert to Judaism. In an orthodox interpretation, one has to be born to a Jewish mother (?). It is also an orthodox interpretation that the Jews must return to their promised land of Israel, come hell or high water. I don`t know of any other religion that has concepts similar to these two.

If we assume the first to be true, then can the second be true? If all the Jews, in an orthodox manner need to have Jewish mothers, then how far did orthodox Judaism actually spread? One would assume, it could not have gone too far from its Middle Eastern origins. Unless Jewish females started marrying non-Jewish males, all over the world. Is that even allowed?

So if the orthodox belief is that orthodox Jews should return to the promised land, then wouldn`t that be limited to the Middle Eastern, ``Arab`` Jews (who constitute a majority in Israel). Where exactly does this place the, ``White`` Russian/European Jews, who are running the country, and actually laid its foundations? Are they all descendants of Jewish mothers?

Although very informative and readable through the simplicity, one can`t help but start to cringe whilst reading at some of the little details you`ve forgot to mention. The `best deal the Arabs/Palestinians would ever get` was rejected, yes, but you make it sound as if this decision stemmed purely from a natural distaste of Jews by the Arab/Muslim world. Yet we can easily see no such distaste existed then, as the Ottomans, like the other Muslim empires were tolerant to the people. This repulsion of the Jews stemmed purely from the Zionist movement; and we all know why.
Well then, what to make of the rejection of the first UN proposal to partition Palestine into two nations? Simply, because the majority of the land would be awarded to the Jews, whilst a minority of the land to the Palestinians. The Jews being a minority in the area; the proposal was soundly rejected by anyone sane and unbiased.
The UN`s illogical decision probably arose from a number of reasons; Zionist pressure in the UN, sympathy for the people after the Holocaust, etc.
However, any people would have rejected this proposal: sound logic, which I guess you dont have, following your exclusion of this `small` fact.
And get better sources than Wikipedia next time.

NHK,

Thanks for writing this very informative article. Keep it up and let us know more!

NHK
``A male convert needs to undergo a ritual circumcision,``

ha ha.. this would explain paucity of ``adult`` male conversions, unless this was done anyways for other reasons, such as being a muslim or medical. muslims dont convert to other religious, so what is left is medical amputees, and women. very interesting.

overall, the votes are in according to the party lines. eastern side has a more or less sympathetic view of jewish history, and the western side, holds it with suspicion. eastern side is more or less ingnorant. the western has some built-in biases although they should be as ignorant (due to lack of interaction). they seem to be searching for problems of rusky jews.

i have rusky friend who has absolutely hilarious tales of life in rusky military service as well as israel. these ruskys have some sense of humor. he claims that he was on a train to afganistan with his unit, and was felt really chosen, when the CO asked all the chosen people to get off the train. he also tells some interesting tales of beardos disturnbing everyones sleep in el-al flights by theis loud prayers. he and other ruskies are funny and really tough folks.

Dear Nazar Hayat!
I am bit surprised to read this little history of the Jews with such a simple mention of the simplicity of the Jews.

The primary argument for Jewish ocucpation of Palestine is that God promised them this land. and u also extend them courtesy by saying that they deserve it for the 400 yrear persecution. WHAT???

Who else does nt deserve it? The red indians in North Amercia? The aboriginals in Canada? The inca descendents in peru? the natives in brazil? even the natives in india now declared the shudders? The history of the world is littered with tribes and nations uprooted, destroyed and mutilated one after another. Why Jews? and Who says they lived in this land? The concept of diaspora is crazy. These jews collect people from russia and ukraine, uganda and sudan, amercia and even china, bring them to Palestine declare them the ``returning Jews``, gobble up palestinan land and then weep about why the world hates them? Some cheek.

The fact is, Jews in the US media and print industry have come up with this huge propaganda machine that churns up these simple n touching history books about how miserable the history of the Jewish people has been to hide their naked aggression, exploitation and massacre of Palestinian people.

The fact is religious stories r used by all... Muslims, hindus, jews or christians but behind most is land grabbing, persecution or economic expansionism. The only thing religion does is to provide the aggressor with conviction that cannot be reasoned.

What if u claim tomorrow that God promised u the whole of USA in your dream? go see if Bush is going to give it away to u!! The capture of Palestine has only been done by the willing and consenting participation of the Britshers n the french and later supported by the American as a result of the financial lending that the Jews did to the Allies during the first and second world wars.

I have met several Jewish engineers and most except maybe one have turned out to be nice decent people. However, when it comes to zionism, and defendingf what has been happenning in Palestine, as a group the Jewish community in Palestine has been brutal, monstrous and deserve to be lambasted for their hideous crimes against humanity.

I would appreciate if u can spell out what u think of the recent history of the ocucpation of Palestine. With your background and experience, u should nt come up with this simple fairy tale of the poor Jews history of hte world story,

Regards,
jamshed nazar

conversion:

The question of jewish conversion reminds me of two cases. One is that of the late comedian Samy Davis Junior who had successfully converted to judaism. He always used to get laughs by saying how he belonged to the triple minority of blacks, jews and one-eyeds. The second is about this Hindu in Bombay who was shown in a documentary recently on Indian jews. He claims that his inner voice told him that he was a jew. The rabbi refused to accept him but he continues to practice all jewish rituals and prayers at his home and continues his struggle to be accepted as a jew.


amit:
I agree with you re. the jews. I think that they are brilliant tacticians but not very strategic in their thinking, although there are many exceptions, like the Israeli Labour leader Shimon Perez. They have to recognize that they cannot live in a hostile environment until eternity. And how long will the US public let the tail wag the dog in the US-Israeli relationship? An independent and secure Israel may be in the US interests but not a hostile Arab and Muslim world. And despite what the propagandists say, even OBL has no desire to destroy America, only wanting it to stop interfering in the middle east by imposing Israel and unpopular despots on its people.

I do differ with you regard to the Hindus. I think that their docility is sometimes mistaken as tolerance. I believe that it was Gandhi who said that Hindus are cowards and Muslims are bullies or something like that. Like all stereotypings, there is an element of truth to the statement, despite too much generalisation.

Nazar Sahib,

I think there are two main reasons behind why jews have a trouble history. First of all, they believe that they are the ``chosen people``. This is a form of racism/superiority complex that ticks off other people.

Secondly, jews are a very shrewd and cunning people who can play politics very well. Maybe this trait has evolved in them as a survival mechanism. As a people they are paranoid and are always trying to beat the system for their interests, perhaps as a result of their history of persecution. An example is the jewish lobby in US including the neo-cons. As a result, they are smart but short-sighted in nature and very clannish about supporting each other against non-jews. In the same vein, Isreali nationalism is a narrow religion/ethnicity based nationalism as compared to other democratic countries that have embraced secularism. The only other country based on similar parochial ideology is Pakistan, which is hardly a success. The narrow minded behavior of jews/israelis creates bad blood with non-jewish people with whom they interact and perpetuates the cycle of hatred against them.

Most Israelis know in their hearts that what they have done to the Palestinian people is wrong and unjust. Yet seldom do you hear any Israeli plan to compensate the Palestinians or try to work something out for them. They don`t even offer Isreali citizenship for fear of losing jewish identity. I would contrast the behavior of jews with hindus. In the past 1000 years, hindus have been dumped on as well, in terms of suffering centuries of muslim and british imperial rule.Yet it is a very small minority among hindus that craves for revenge or supports narrow hindu nationalism. If anything, mainstream hinduism emphasizes reconciliation and secularism. Our leadership starting with Gandhi focused on inclusion and secular ideals, which is why India is respected so much all over the world and is on the path to becoming a major world power.