The Troubled History of Jews

Nazar, I would like to make some comments. You qouted,

``Jesus said to them [i.e., the ``Jews``], ``You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father`s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. . . . He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is you are not of God.`` (John 8:44-47)

IN THIS PARTICULAR JESUS WAS TALKING TO THE PHARASEES, A HIGHLY PURITAN AND ORTHODOX SECT OF THE JEWS (evolved during the Babylonian days) WHO HAD BROUGHT A WOMEN CAUGHT RED HANDED TO TEST JESUS. UNDER THE JEWISH LAW SHE WAS TO BE STONED, AND CHRIST SAID, `LET THAT MAN CAST THE FIRST STONE WHO HAS NOT SINNED` ONE BY ONE THEY ALL WENT AWAY, AND THE LADY CAUGHT IN SIN BECAME ONE OF THE MOST ADORED FEMALE FIGURES OF THE CHURCH. BY AND LARGE, THESE PHARASEES BELIEVED IN ELABORATE PHYSICAL RICTUALS THAT PROPOGATED THEIR PURITY. EVEN AMONGST THE ORTHODOX JEWS, THEY WERE VIEWED WITH SCEPTISM. IT IS THEM THAT JESUS CHRIST IS ADDRESSING AND NOT THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY OF JEWS.

``You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it. (Acts 7:51-53)``

THIS IS THE SPEECH OF ST. STEPHEN, THE FIRST MARTYR OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH WHEN HE WAS BROUGHT BEFORE THE COURT OF JEWISH HIGH PRIESTS. HE CONDEMNED THEM FOR REJECTING AND PROSECUTING ALL PROPHETS, FAILING TO INTERNALISE THE TEACHINGS OF MOSES AND ABRAHAM AND CONCENTRATING MORE ON THE PHYSICAL ACTS OF PURITY AND HYPOCRACY. FOLLOWING THIS ST. STEPHEN WAS PUT TO DEATH BY STONING DURING WHICH ST STEPHEN KEPT PRAYING FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE KILLING HIM. LET ME EMPHASISE THAT THESE WERE THE EARLY DAYS OF THE CHURCH AND NEW CONVERTS WERE BEING KILLED HYSTERIACLLY.

Now about this one,
``Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie -- behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and learn that I have loved you. (Rev. 3:9).``
THIS IS WHAT YOU CALL ILHAM (APPIRITION). THIS IS A REFERENCE TO THE FALSE PROPHETS WHO USE RELIGION TOWARDS DEMONIC ENDS. IN NO WAY THIS IS A REFERENCE TO JEWS IN GENERAL.

This is a problem of qouting references out of context by the same type of people that religion itself wants to dispel. Scriptures propogate love and forgiveness and not hatred.I know there are many sites in the web, but these do not belong to the mainstream churches viz a viz, the Orthodox, Catholics and the Anglicans. In USA there are many micky mouse denominations of which quite a few do so for political economy of the religion.

Dost Mitter,
No, Paul was not amonst the twelve disciples. He became a Christian as i wrote earlier after the ascension of Christ.

Now regards circumscision,
IT WAS A SYMBOL OF JUDISM AND COUNTED MORE THAN INTERNAL CLEANSING THAT CHRIST ADVOCATED. CHRISTIANITY DID AWAY WITH THESE SYMBOLIC RICTUALS AND CONCENTRATED MORE ON THE PURITY OF THE SOUL AND INTERNALISING OF VALUES.iN THE DAYS THAT CHRISTIANITY REMOVED EMPHASIS ON THIS RICTUAL, CHRISTIANS WERE BEING PROSECUTED AND KILLED BY JEWS AND ROMANS ALIKE. SP YOUR OBSERVATION REAGRDING CIRCUMSCISION FALLS FLAT.

Cheerios

dost,

``The fact that judaism, which flourished in Medina, was annihilated during the time of the prophet itself indicates that the relationship was not honky-dory from the very beginning of Islam. ``

Well, the fact that the Jewish tribes sided with those intent on the genocide of the Muslims also tells us that not all was hunky-dory, nor were the Jews always a benevolent or ``peaceful`` presence, or that they themselves didn`t inflict ``rough times`` on other people.

Nazar Saab,

A good article by Daniel Pipes on similarities between Islam and Judaism.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/160

Overall, this was a good article, though very skeletal. A more meaty treatment of such a vast subject would have been better. Maybe you can parcel the content in series form, if it becomes toi much for one article.

Dost # 15

I agree with you. The jews have been having a rough time from the Muslims. But in the relative sense, more rough time from the Christians. Hitler`s persecution was on racial grounds - not on religious grounds.


Ejaz # 13

There has been no problem in recent centuries between the Christians and Jews. They have both gone through the Enlightenment. I had written that the holy scripture does not portray jews in good light as given below:

``Examples of passages in the New Testament that are seen as anti-Semitic, or have been used for anti-Semitic purposes:

Jesus said to them [i.e., the ``Jews``], ``You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father`s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. . . . He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is you are not of God.`` (John 8:44-47)

You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it. (Acts 7:51-53)

Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie -- behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and learn that I have loved you. (Rev. 3:9).``

Ref to be read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_anti-Semitism

nhk

A succinct, sympathetic history of the jews.
As ijaz pointed out, Paul was one of the original 12 apostles, a sceptic who got his faith on the road to Damascus. Actually, he was probably the one who converted Christianity from an essentially jewish sect to a mass movement. One of the ways he did was to remove circumcision as part of the covenant. Before him, to be a christian, one had to be part of the covenant. Circumcision in those days was a forbidding affair and could sometimes lead even to death. By removing this condition, he made christianity attractive to a lot more people.

From what I have read, the relationship of muslims and jews has seen its up and down from the very beginning. Jews of Medina were helpful to the prophet during his hijra from Mecca but the relationship turned sour later. The fact that judaism, which flourished in Medina, was annihilated during the time of the prophet itself indicates that the relationship was not honky-dory from the very beginning of Islam.

Ejaz Gul # 13

I stand corrected. I need to study more of Christianity.

Yes. The Jews are waiting for the Messiah. The Muslims are also waiting for Mehdi.

nhk

Nazar,
``After 300 years of his death, one of his apostles Paul writes the New Testament (the Christian Bible), the first half of which is the Old Testament – the Jewish Torah. `` I WOULD LIKE TO CORRECT YOU.

St Paul was one of the contemporaries of Jesus Christ, a Jew, Pharasee and a Roman citizen. He wrote his Epistles after the Ascension of Jesus Christ and joined the eleven disciples of Christ for evangelism. Prior, he had been one of the bitterest critics of Christianity and had tortured the Christians, till he was Slain by the Holy Spirit and he accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior. For all purposes, he remained a layman and a tentmaker.

You should have also mentioned that during the exile and captivity in Babylon,the basic Jewish faith split into many denominations. Some historians call this a deliberate attempt by the rulers of Babylon to weaken Judism. As history has so oft repeated, these Jews (Pharasees and Saddaques)became the hardcore fundamentalists with extensive belief in rinctuals, purity and non tolerance. It is also this group and not all jews who are blamed for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

Christians hold nothing against Jews as Christ while dying on the Cross forgave them by saying, `` Oh Lord, forgive them because they do not know what they do``. But Christians believe that they are no more the chosen people because the Covenant in the form of the New Covenant has passed on to the Christians of all races be they Gentiles, Samaritans,Assyriams or whatever.

As for Jews, they still await the first coming of Christ and want to prepare a new Jerusalem, where they hope to recieve him for their deliverance. They want to rebuild the Temple and be ready when he comes. Unlike Christians and Muslims, they do not believe in Christ, born in Bethlehem, of a Virgin Mary, through the Holy Spirit.

Nice and informative article, though sketchy.

Cheerios

Various

The Muslims are facing the Islamophobia for the first time - the Jews have faced it for 4000 years. So give them some credit.

The Jews originated from Canaan - present day Israel. Then they were exiled, thrown around all these centuries - they deserve a homeland and peace. So do the Philistine people - the sea people who originated in roughly the Gaza areas 4000 years ago. The Palestinians & Arabs should not have refused the UN partition plan. Having good relations with Israel would have benefitted them immensely.

We Muslim need to agree that since the 14 century, we are in a constant decline as a society and presently are in our Dark Ages - a resistance to change and to seek knowledge - the very qualities which we had upto the 14 century.

What surprised me about reading the Books on Judaism was that the authors treated their subject lightly - even poking fun at Moses or God or Abraham. I was thinking that if a Muslim had written such a book on islam, he would have been beheaded by now.

The ``Jewish Conspiracy theory`` is also thrown overboard. They all voted for Kerry. Incidently, there are 5 million Jews in Israel and 6 million Jews in US.

The Jews have had a scholarly tradition and a commercial acumen. And Judaism does not seek conversions. It is difficult to convert. Basically, the Mother has to be a Jew.

The Jews enriched Ottoman Empire, they enriched Europe and they have done so in US. (The Bombay Jews are Bene Israel branch and there are Cochin Jews as well)

My title of article was ``The Longest Hatred of history``. Chowk changed it.

more later

nhk

``The Jews began to quietly purchase property on the Mediterranean coast and the first all Jewish city Tel Aviv begins to come up.``

This in my opinion is one of the more understated aspects of the Zionist movement. The amount of ill-will created from this is great. Quite frankly the underhandedness of buying land in another *country* for the sake of creating a new state is just asking` for trouble...

In a sense, the Zionists lucked out with the Ottoman empire falling...it made their inevitable conflict with the Ottoman`s evaporate.

``In 1947, UN resolution 181 stated the creation of two independent states, Israel and Palestine, with Jerusalem as the UN territory. Majority of the Jews accept the proposal and majority of the Arabs reject the proposal.``

No, the Zionists WON a state and the Palestinians lost one. The Arabs were taken aback how a bunch of ``foreigners`` (Zionism may have had ``native`` supporters, but was a movement born in Europe) could have a state carved out of ``Arab lands``. The Arabs were particularly miffed at the ``betrayal`` of the allies for siding with (or caving into their terror) these outsiders despite the fact that the Arabs remained loyal to the Allies (in particular the British) during their war.

Also note that since this resolution, Israel has had no problem ignoring UN resolutions wholesale. UN resolution 181 was still considered valid, in spite of Israeli defiance in holing on to the occupied territories, until America (unilaterally) declared it dead in 1999.

paging temporal

should title be ``Troubled History of the Jews``?

Interesting.

Written primarily from a, ``Jewish`` point of view, however. That too, a, ``Jewish`` point of view of today. If you were to look at it from a Jewish point of view pre-48, Christians would be considered the most evil group on Earth, as far as the Jews are concerned.

Jews actually have been settled in the Middle East for a long long time. And statistically speaking, they are still the largest group in Isreal. One doesn`t see them much on TV, because the ruling class or Israel consists of European (white) Jews.

I am not sure if I can agree with your assessment of the, ``success`` of the Jews, at a community level. No doubt they are phenomenally successful at an individual level. But at a community level, they are almost extinct. There are about as many Jews in the world, as there are people in Karachi. If there is only one Muslim left in the world, in one hundred years, and that individual is the winner of a Noble prize, an Olympic medal and is the richest entrepreneur on earth, does that point to the success of the Muslim community or failure. At a per person level, it is a huge success. But not at a community level.

You asked this question, in the article itself, ``So one wonders why the Jews keep annoying everybody?`` I don`t think you provided a comprehensive answer to the question. Communities, whose members are so successful, end up dominating the countries they live in. Not vice-versa. Muslims were a minority in India, but ruled it for 800 or so years. British were a huge minority, but ruled it for 200 years or so.

Why have the Jews always ended up being dominated by the communities they live in, even though they are so successful? Are they making strategic errors and wrong decisions, again and again, in trying to find a place for themselves in the world? Why is their community almost extinct?

To find such answers, one needs to look at the following areas:

- Birth rate of Jews in comparison to people of other religions
- Rules about or against others converting to Judaism
- Potentially destructive long-term decisions made by Jewish leaders (like asking for a country in an area where they will always be under threat, rather than accepting it in Uganda or Canada)

etc.......

There is, thus, a second part to the first part you have provided, i.e.

``Historically, whichever society had welcomed the Jews to live in peace with it, it had gained,`` but in the end, every society seems to have eventually turned agains them.

Is it because they overstayed their welcome? Or is it due to other reasons?.........Europe had a large Jewish population, and it turned on them , pre-WWII. Middle East had a large African and Arab Jewish popluation, it has turned on them, post-WWII. The only areas where they are comfortable today and enjoy influence is the USA. Will the USA, one day, turn on them, also? If it does, then the only area in the world left with a large Jewish population (approximately 4+ million, will be Israel)......

obvously excellent research work - I did some research myself -
Jews should be respected as everyone should - there was this gallop poll about `world most racist country ` - Isreal topped the list -
theres a huge difference in the concept of ONE GOD between us Muslims and them Kafir`s ( specially Jews )
According to Torah, God created man on His own form. It is, now, evident that the God who has this kind of form, His created nation would also have the same form, But it is not the nature of God, it is the account of the conduct of that nation itself. After holding this type of concept about, the God, what would be the fate of moral values with that nation, does need no perspicuity and description of any kind.
Allah is far above and free from all the concepts they attribute to Him from their own minds” ( Al-Quran 23/92)

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according to Islam . You cannot know anything about His personality; but a concept of God, more exalted, pure, dignified and elegant than the concept which appears forth from his attributes He has described of His own, is not possible.
Among the Jews, the religion was confined to the race of Bani-Israel. The one who is not born to the BaniIsrael, can never be admitted to their Divine Religion. The Paradise was strictly particularized for Bani Israel; all the non-Bani Israel are the fuel of the Hell. They were fumed with the emotions of hatred and enmity against the people outside their race; and this was all the consequence of the teachings of the (conventional) Torah. They had one set of laws for the Jews and another for the non-Bani Israel.

The Holy Quran on its revelation, smashed these man-made fetters and declared openly that the humans of the whole Universe are the branches of the same genealogy and the foliage of the same tree. By birth, there is no discrimination between man and man. “God has created all of you from a single life cell”. .(Al-Quran 4/1) Therefore, the whole mankind constitutes a Universal brotherhood . “The whole mankind is one community”; (Al-Quran 10/19) and every human being is worthy of equal respect by birth. “We have created all human beings worthy of respect” (Al-Quran 17/70) There is no superiority of the black to the white; of the white to the black, of the Arab to the Non-Arab, of the Non-Arab to the Arab. In the world, there is neither any Brahmin, nor any shoodra; neither the superior, nor the inferior. So as are their ranks in the society, its measure of greatness is their personal virtue and meritorious deeds. “And to all will be (assigned) ranks according to their deeds.” (Al-Quran 46/19) and the most worthy of all will be the one whose conduct will be the most pure of all and whose character, the highest of all. “The God of the Holy Quran is equally the sustainer, the Authority and the Allah of the whole humanity” ( Al-Quran 49/13) and “ His book is a compendium of instructions for all” (Al-Quran 45/21); His Rasool equally the Messenger for the whole humanity “Say, O mankind, I am Allah’s Rasool sent to all of you.” (Al-Quran 7/158) The essence of its teaching is: “Only that action or theory, which is beneficial to the whole of humanity without any discrimination of colour race language country creed and nationality, shall endure in the land (Al-Quran 13/17)

Nhk
Interesting article
The tragedy of the Palestinians is that they are the victims of the victims.
It has been said of Jews never in the history of mankind have so few contributed so much.
Before the Nazis every European country had a thriving Jewish population, 6 million gased by Nazis others emigrated to America and isreal, Europe is poorer without them.
Some academics have expressed fears that Muslims are becoming the new jews of Europe.

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an incredible people surrounded and besieged by morons !

http://www.masada2000.org/nobel.html

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