The Real Blasphemy

Lest we forget, here yet another one from the Jessus Mullahs

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/24/opinion/24kristof.html?hp

The ``Left Behind`` series, the best-selling novels for adults in the U.S., enthusiastically depict Jesus returning to slaughter everyone who is not a born-again Christian. The world`s Hindus, Muslims, Jews and agnostics, along with many Catholics and Unitarians, are heaved into everlasting fire: ``Jesus merely raised one hand a few inches and . . . they tumbled in, howling and screeching.``

Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, the co-authors of the series, have both e-mailed me (after I wrote about the ``Left Behind`` series in July) to protest that their books do not ``celebrate`` the slaughter of non-Christians but simply present the painful reality of Scripture.


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Jeez man - what`s going on here? President of US wins on religious pandering - and then the best-selling novel in US is the one that predicts extermination of non-christians? Are the so called monotheist sons of abraham going nuts here? Freaking mullahs have already captured their base, Now Jesus Mullahs are spreading their wings over evengelical christians - who are 1/3rd of US population. This is nuts!!

Atif2:

``you did not mention the motel owning Patels in American south who habitually utter ``no vacancy`` or ``motel is phull`` to the black customers. And the next moment when a white walks in, they miraculously find a room for him.

so yeah, really, what is it in the hindu teachings that makes them treat dark (darker than indians) people with disgust? Really, what is it? ``

Yaar, we also know Pakistanis in real life. You really want me to believe that Pakistani attitudes towards blacks are different? For all the Hindu-Muslim crap, we are also very similar in many ways. You`ll see that when you bring a black girlfriend hime, even if she is Muslim.

Romair#282:

``There is nothing wrong with being enflamed.``

When a large chunk of the community is enflamed, it is. Because when one or more people are enflamed enough to cause violent acts, there is a sympathy/support for this act in the community. The host community can sense this sympathy through the reactions and it results in retaliation, which can take the form of mob retaliation like attacking religious places of worship and institutions, or state retaliation in the form of deportation, immigration curbs and stricter monitoring/regulation of religious places. This is already happening in places as diverse as Singapore and Germany. To me, when the state starts monitoring and regulating religious affairs, this is a violation of secular ideals of separation of the church and state.

And why should muslims be more enflamed than others? Just last week, the most famous hindu religious figure was arrested on a charge of murder. Despite the attempts of the BJP and religious groups to arouse the Hindus` passions, it has hardly caused a stir in India. Contrast this with what happened in the Shah Bano case when the Supreme Court ordered a muslim to give a small alimony to his divorced wife. It aroused such huge passions among India`s Muslims that it shook the very pillars of the Indian constitution and the tremors from that earthquake are felt even today.

``One should condemn all such actions. I have suggested a solution. Take any grievances to court, and allow a legal system to give religious figures the same rights as Hollywood celeberaties.``

I think that others have already answered this question quite eloquently. If these reverred figures are tried for perpetrating frauds on humanity and causing wars, they may have a hard time defending themselves. I know that as far as hindus and buddhists are concerned, they wont even bother defending their holy books, that is if they can even agree upon which of their book has the status of The Scripture.

``ultra-liberal Jews and the ultra-orthodox Jews do not like each other. Much like Urstruly and Hamidm. But there is one difference. Whenever their is an external issue related to the Jewish community, as a whole involved, they all forget their differences and join hands. And they don`t, ``bend over and ask for more.`` They demand their rights. So much so, that even every US President thinks ten times before making a single comment about them.``

Isn`t that one of the root causes of anti-semitism or is it the result of that anti-semitism? In any case, I do not wish the historical fate of jews on any other group, relgious or otherwise.

vertex#287

You are right. I was writing in the context of non-muslim countries, with one possible caveat. If the impact of mullah`s messages is felt outside the muslim countries, there could be consequences for those countries as is happening now in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan- I am not including Iraq in this group because I believe that there is no direct relationship there.

teshah:
Thank you for the clarification.

Captain …

I “keep bringing up the Ahmadi issue” … since it shows the ugly side of ummah that you insist on ignoring. It is not an Ahmadi issue, but an ummah issue; note the distinction. It shows what the ummah is capable of doing if given a chance … which you find hard to swallow … and which makes you ask for proof that will stand in the court of law.

And what about violence against hindus and Sikhs … shia-sunni issue … witch-hunt of apostates, adulterers, blasphemers … preached by mullahs and carried out by the ummah in the name of Islam? Ignoring all this … while blaming Fox network is sheer lunacy … what’s next? … will you now tell us that MBZ Isphahani is your cousin…?


Urstruly,

Keep talking … your posts support my contention about ummah’s jihalat and a defeatist outlook.

romair #282 Again i will reiterate what I said- Someone painting a whole community according to the act of a few people is wrong.Cannot be more wrong than that. But here what is being done is pointing to a religion. How tolerant is a religion towards other religions, towards women n stuff.There is a difference.And that is what rubs off to its followers.
I will give an example from Hinduism to illustrate my point. There were caste divisions prescribed in Hinduism.Which book, I am not aware of and I dont care. But the hangover of that caste system still exists. Not all Hindus are casteists(if there is such a word) ,but some of them are. And it is because of Hinduism.This is a fault in it. So if a Hindu is not casteist ,it is inspite of the fact that he she is a Hindu,not because of it. All the people getting killed in caste violence are because of Hinduism.Giving them education and financial assiatance may or may not stop them from murdering each other, but again the point still remains that the influence of religion in that case is regressive. So , we have to point to that flaw in religion and if possible, legislate against the regressive aspects.
So, Islam, (not muslims) is pedantic and not very accomodating towards other faiths. This is a fault in Islam.It rubs off on some people,it doesnt on others. But, you have to recognize the fact that no religion is perfect,including Islam. Then.less people will be affected.

Bina

It appears you have hit a jack-pot, dear!

276 by dost-mittar

``The mullahs have to be stopped from teaching this particular aspect and issuing fatwas of blasphemy.``

I appreciate your comments about Islam and the Muslims which are quite objective and based on deep insight, but excuse me I do not totally agree with your remarks above. The tragedy is that this Illamdeeni cult of blasphemy lynching is very widespread and even some pseudo-intellectuals-cum-soofies like Ashfaq Ahmad who are otherwise staunch anti-mullah are proponents of this cult. The almighty Musharraf who has otherwise put the almighty Mullah on the defensive had to take back his suggestion for a minor procedural change in the LOB.

Blasphemy lynching, in fact, is a Cult which has little to do with Islam. The problem is that it is not defined at all. So one can call any body claiming to be a prophet an `imposter` even and afterwards say whatever one likes provided one has the might to face the reaction.

urstruly,

............ you are one angry muslim ! .........``It is because of them I am sitting in this cold bland and godforsaken country of religious nuts and biggots. ``......... so now we are blaming the faujis for living in dar-ul-harb ?...........if you don`t like it, leave ........ after all, didn`t muhammad leave mecca ? ...........maybe you too can return with a victorious army and knock down the lincoln memorial and tear down the holocaust museum ...........look, even romair emigrated to canukistan and is busy drawing up plans to bring down the us it industry with help from allies in anarkali and gowalmandi ..........

............. be a man, admit it - you want to have your halwa and eat it too ........... but please stop biting the hand that puts out the bowl of halwa ..........

plats8 write ``I just checked with the HR department in my company....it is a large IT firm
Over the past year, the starting salary of an H1-B here with about 3-4 years of
experience has been roughly $93,000 - slavery, indeed. ``

You know plats8, there is a whole world that exists outside of your ``large IT firm``. And getting to know and understand that world is much different than learning by rot all the microsoft certification exams.

I am afraid you have not followed the discussion on H1B slavery well. That american owned, white operated companies pay well was never in contention. The discussion was about those hindoos owned slave sweat shops that are being run as ``recruiting / consulting`` firms in america.

Regards

Romair

Your #283 is an unfortunate post. Please do not attribute your ``opinion`` as my ``statement``. My #231 is a piece of information and not an opinion.

However, I do owe a grudge to the dictator and I think the mentioning his name is absolutely relavant. This dictator and others like him have been installed upon us by the US. These Haramkhor faujis have occupied every resource of the country and deprived people like me every opportunity to earn Rizq-e-Halal. It is because of them I am sitting in this cold bland and godforsaken country of religious nuts and biggots. So faujis have to be cursed upon- because you support them by going out of the way so that they can maintain this system of oppression, injustice, and pilfrage of natural resources.

The Quadiani issue is relavant because a Quadiani out of nowhere comes and makes it an issue - unprovoked if I might add. In the past you yourself have been disrespectful to Holy Prophet (pbuh) as well. You have been addressing him by his first name like the pagan beduins used to do and then in Chapter Al-Hujrat (the living quarters) Allah swt Himself instructed Muslims to address Holy prophet with all due respect. A person of desi ancestory who can be so disrespectful to Prophet can either be a Quadiani, or a Quadiani-turned-atheist, or a Hindu. Hindu because they have no moral values whatsoever. I am pretty sure that you are not a Hindu, since you can talk about things like human rights etc., at least, and that brings me to my second guess. And that makes the issue of Quadianis relavent.

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Romair,

Misc. points

I explained my use of ummah in post #153 (those with a coercive and violent take on Islam).

Regarding Christians and Jews getting along … 50 years ago we saw holocaust of Jews. 50 years is a nothing in lives of nations. You are speaking way too soon here.

Why blame the Jews or the CIA …

Blaming the Jews and the CIA will continue to delude the ummah into believing that they themselves are not at fault. To the first degree, ummah is in a mess that they themselves created. No nation has power over others … except what the victims themselves allow. Once they admit this and make amends, they can blame the Jews, the CIA or what not.

The Palestinians initially sold their land to the Zionists … what were they thinking? You’ll probably write this off once again … but Ahmadi leadership back then warned Palestinians against selling their land to the Zionists. But the ummah was too busy chasing Ahmadis out of their mosques to pay heed. Zionists exploited a weakness in the ummah … but the ummah is responsible for being weak in the first place. Failure to come to grips with this will only result on more loss and damage to the ummah itself.

Mullah … the leaders of the deluded ummah

All ullema are in agreement that blasphemers, adulterers, apostates should be killed. How could all of them, independently, come to the same conclusion … esp. when Quran and overwhelming evidence from ahadith negate all this? They also unanimously declared Ahamdis non-Muslim behind closed doors. You argue that ullema “should not exist” … while ignoring the fact that they ”do” exist. This is somwehat like your take on the ummah concept as well.

I mentioned Munir report … riots against Hindus … the shia-sunni riots that gripped Karachi every moharram … and you don’t want to blame the mullahs for inciting hatred and violence? Blaming the Fox news network is not an intelligent, helpful response.

Ummah’s designs … and their blissful incompetence

You ask me for Muslim countries occupying non-Muslims lands. As I earlier mentioned … ummah’s designs are just as brutal as those of the Zionists. However they don’t have the intelligence to carry out their plans. Don’t bother asking for proof that will stand in the court of law … it will make you look more clueless than ever.

Here are a few excerpts from Maudoodi … that I posted earlier. He was indeed one of the most respected leaders of the ummah. There are also hints at dealing with citizenship and visa requirements that keep bothering you. If you still want to separate ummah’s religion from its politics … take a hint!

Show me rebuttals from the “ullema” against this … that is, if you believe the “ullema” exist.

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Maududi … on foreign policy and jihad

“Human relations are so integrated that no state can have complete freedom of action under its principles unless the same principles are in force in a neighboring country. Therefore, both for its safety and the general reform, a “Muslim party” will not be content with the establishment of Islam in just one area alone. It should try to expand in all directions. On one hand it will spread its ideology, on the other it will invite people of all nations to accept its creed, for salvation lies only therein. If this Islamic state has power and resources it will fight and destroy non-Islamic governments and establish Islamic states in their place.”

Haqiqat-e-Jihad (Reality of Jihad); Lahore: Taj Company Ltd., 1964; page 64, 65


Maudooi … on apostasy

[Who is this we, our that Maudoodi keeps referring to … could it be the ummah … that you claim does not exist?]

Elaborating on killing of apostates and “no compulsion in religion” commandment of Quran … Maudoodi explains: “This means we do not compel anyone to embrace our religion. This is true. But we must warn anyone who wishes to recant that this door is impassable to free traffic. If you wish to come, do so with the firm decision that your cannot escape.”

“There are two methods of dealing with an apostate. Either make him an outlaw by depriving him of his citizenship and allowing him mere existence, or end his life. The first method is definitely more severe than the second, because he exists in a state in which ‘neither lives nor dies’. Killing him is preferable. That way both his agony and the agony of society are ended simultaneously.”

Maudoodi, Murtad Ki Saza Islami Qanoon Mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), page 51.

More from Maudoodi on apostasy and Islamic revolution

“Whenever death penalty for apostasy is enforced in a new Islamic state, then Muslims are kept within Islam’s fold. But there is a danger that large number of hypocrites will live alongside them. They will always pose a danger of treason.

My solution to the problem is this. That whenever an Islamic revolution takes place, all non-practicing Muslims should, within one year, declare their turning away from Islam and get out of Muslim society. After one year all born Muslims will be considered Muslims. All Islamic laws will be enforced upon them. They will be forced to practice all of the obligatory duties (faraid) and optional duties (wajibat) of their religion and if anyone wishes to leave Islam, he will be executed. Every effort will be made to save as many people as possible from falling into lap of disbelief (kufr). But those who cannot be saved will be reluctantly separated from society forever. After this purification Islamic society will start afresh with Muslims who have decided voluntarily to remain Muslims.

Maudoodi, Murtad ki saza Islami qanoon mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), Lahore: Islamic Publications Ltd, 1950, page 80-81.

Malik99,

FYI, I just checked with the HR department in my company (it is a large IT firm,
employs a very large number of H1-B`s and yes, they`re mostly Indians and Chinese).
Over the past year, the starting salary of an H1-B here with about 3-4 years of
experience has been roughly $93,000 - slavery, indeed.

Feel free to ignore this as empirical and get back to your hallucinations now. Very
elegant change of topic, by the way. I can now clearly see how Theo`s killer and coders
employed by TCS operate under comparable conditions.

HP,

You`re right. There is/was a whole array of Indian companies that grossly
underpaid their people in the US working as contractors for US companies. But a
very large number of them jump ship soon enough to get regular positions at places
in the US - they bear the initial hardship to get a toehold here. My experience is anecdotal
but quite a few people I know did exactly this and there`s no reason to believe that
they are exceptions. The underpaying is a bad practice that the market will resolve in
its own way - evolution is a slow process at times.

About Indian/Pakistani doctors with the lower paying positions, these are teething
problems that most first generation immigrants have to go through. They certainly are
not worthy of derision (not that you did deride them). I wonder where all the contempt for
H1-B workers comes from.

dost-mittar,

``The mullahs have to be stopped from teaching this particular aspect and issuing fatwas of blasphemy. ``

I am perplexed if you are referring to Mullahs in general, or only those in the west. By your own philosophy, those in Muslim lands should be aware of the ``mass psychology`` of Muslims and adapt for their own benefit, as we Muslims are expected to do so in the West. There`s no luxury of personal ideals in the face of mass reaction, no?

Another blasphemy apologist article which appears to be arguing for the `Muslim` right to give 13th century European treatment to other Europeans(while receiving 21st century rights in return, of course). Hard times ahead for the moderates caught in between:(.

http://atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FK23Aa01.html

Raw_Dust #240
Thanks.

Urstruly #274: ``dont` think any lie or accusation (because you have run out of arguments) can make me reverse my position on the dictator or on Quadianis.``

First of all, why in the world do you (and sattar2) keep bringing the Ahmedi issue into every debate. And who is debating dictators? Whenever one has to bring in two other unrelated issues, into a debate, it is a sign that one is out of arguments.

``Lies and inherent hypocritical biases render your, otherwise, reasonable arguments, ineffective. I have never called upon the destruction of US, however, I do call for international measures to reign it in for its lawlessness....... ``

You have called upon the destruction the USA. Infact, you have done so on this board. Please read your reply #231:

``One of the prophecy predicts the appearnce of one-eyed Dajjal (Anti-Christ) - the embodiment of all evil that will envelope the whole world - close to the days preceeding the the Day of the Judgement......Another part of prophecies predict the nuclear attck (blindening light?) of Hindi (Pakistani?) army onto the forces of Dajjal near an area around Damascus under the command of Messiah. And that will defuse the threat and establish the world peace.``

So a nuclear attack on the Dajjal (with a picture of the US Dollar), thereby establishing world peace. What exactly does this mean?

If you want to call on the destruction of the USA, by all means do so. There is no law against not doing so. God knows, the USA, under the leadership of hamidm and Jerry Fallwell, itself, has called and caused the destruction of so many people. But after doing so, how in the world can you live off the benefits that the USA provides you? When push has come to shove, the USA doesn`t seem that bad to you after all.

Dost-Mittar #276: ``It is important not to link the two; Van Gogh was not killed by an Afghan or an Iraqi and not because of what Bush is doing over there``

I don`t think one can link the two, in this sense. I agree with you. The only point I am making is that if you are going to paint the actions of one person onto a whole group, then you must apply that rule to every community. Not just the Muslim community.

``It is better when linkages, if any, are pointed out by non-muslims. When muslims try to make such linkage, it reinforces the ummah perception.``

This maybe true. But, as I stated, one cannot live in fear. One should make a principled argument, based on facts. If someone uses it to reinforce the Ummah perception, so be it.

``And these killings, in my opinion, do have everything to do with Islam.``

I don`t think this is true, in general. If ten people kill somebody based on their interpretatin of a religion, there are 1.9999999 billion who don`t. There are Christians who blow up abortion clinics, in higher numbers.

``Adherents of no other religion get so enflamed about any references deemed to be disrespectful to their holy book or, especially, their prophet even when they are direct quotes from the book or ahdith.``

There is nothing wrong with being enflamed. One should just not turn it into violence. Which in this case, this person did. And he should be punished for that. Adherents of other groups do get enflamed by other actions. Everyone has something that enflames them.

``The mullahs have to be stopped from teaching this particular aspect and issuing fatwas of blasphemy.``

Yes, this is true. Not only should they be stopped, the whole concept of, ``mullah`` needs to be done away with. If you study Islam in detail, you will realize that there were two major thought processes that Islam revolutionized: 1) egalatarianism 2) doing away with the clergy

I saw the piece on the journalist. She is currently in Norway. Once again, it is wrong. And the Nigerian govt. should be held responsible for it. But, once again, I can point to so many such incidences in other areas, where a lot more poeple got killed.

One should condemn all such actions. I have suggested a solution. Take any grievances to court, and allow a legal system to give religious figures the same rights as Hollywood celeberaties.

The only point I am arguing is that apply the same standard for all communities. People shouldn`t try to put someone on the defensive just because one, two, or ten people out of 1.2 billion do something. If one is bent upon doing that, then do take into account the number of Muslims being killed also.

The other point I made was that, for a community to establish itself, it has to stand up for its rights. It cannot take an unnecessarily aggressive attitude like that of Urstruly, nor an overly apologetic one like Hamidm`s. Both will lead to disaster.

If you ever get a chance to study the Jewish community, do so. I had a Jewish roommate for two years. He was active in all their functions. There is an interesting thing I noticed about them. They have a lot of internal differences. The ultra-liberal Jews and the ultra-orthodox Jews do not like each other. Much like Urstruly and Hamidm. But there is one difference. Whenever their is an external issue related to the Jewish community, as a whole involved, they all forget their differences and join hands. And they don`t, ``bend over and ask for more.`` They demand their rights. So much so, that even every US President thinks ten times before making a single comment about them.

The Muslim communty (spefically in the USA), I think, will disintegrate, because the Hamidms and Urstrulys will never agree to unite on anything. They will destroy each other, without realizing the to the outsiders, they are one and the same thing.

There was a poll taken recently and 49% or so of the Americans agreed that all US Arabs, including those who are citizens, should have to carry special identification cards. They did not differentiate between Abdul Arabs and non-Abdul Arabs. Its about time both the Abduls and non-Abduls realized this, rather than trying to find safety in isolation or apology....