The Real Blasphemy

malik99:

``And I will not hold you or your faith responsible for the modern day slavery aka H-1b coder sweatshops in the heart of freedom loving america . These slave shops are not run by chinese, or philipinos or malaysians. These are almost exlusively run by adherents of hindu religion...``

---

Pls. don`t drag H1B`s into the religious fights.. By rule, the H1Bs need to be paid the prevailing wages in that geographical area (the manager of the new hire should actually display the H1B salary in a public notice board in the company.. so that any disgruntled employee can complain to the labor dept..) and by no stretch they can be equated with ``sweatshops`` or slavery..

If you want to compare the religions, use the number of killings / wars / murders committed for spreading any religion or number of ppl killed bcos of blasphemy.. I think that`ll serve as a better indicator..

:-)

Romair (#237):

Captain, this is getting a bit ridiculous ...

Political differences

This is somewhat of a sideline issue … but several political differences can be traced back to historical conflicts. E.g., the Serbian conflict. IRA conflict is rooted in the historical Catholic vs. Protestant issue between England and the Irish. Idea behind State of Israel is rooted in a 3,000 year old scripture. Jews and Christians are getting along fine now … but as recently as 50 years ago we witnessed holocaust of Jews.

Ummah

I explained earlier that by ummah I meant those with a violent and coercive take on Islam (… and not chosen people). Your post is largely based on this misunderstanding.

In certain ways the ummah acts in unison, which makes the label fitting. Unanimity among ullema on issues of apostasy, adultery, blasphemy is not a coincidence. And for god’s sake … get away from arguing that visa-requirement suggests that ummah does not exist … (at times you sound dangerously like tahmed … quoting irrelevant facts while ignoring the obvious).

In 1973 Muslim scholars from all 72 sects, behind closed doors, unanimously declared Ahmadis non-Muslims … and made it a crime for an Ahmadi to act like a Muslim. All 72 sects. Is this a coincidence? If they had faith in their views, they would have made the proceedings public. But they didn’t. Even as they sunk low, they did so in unison.

[FYI: Judaism does not preach the idea of chosen people. It was later concocted by their mullahs.]

Brutal and Violent ideology

I am basing the “brutal and violent” ideology of ummah (review my definition of ummah) … based upon reading some of their most respected scholars. And I am not arguing in court of law where I need to produce Maudoodi’s fingerprints on his book to make a point. Jeeeez man …

Hateful sermons

Now you want me to prove that violent khutbas may have played a part in Van Gogh killing. Would you like tape-recordings or signed confessions from the killer, delivered by FedEx to your doorstep?

As I mentioned, Munir report extensively documented khutbas aimed at inciting hatred and violence. I have heard first-hand accounts of such khutbas aimed at creating a mob-atmosphere against Ahmadis in villages in Punjab. Just two weeks ago in Bangladesh mullahs threatened that if the government does not declare Ahmadis non-Muslims, they will attack and occupy a nearby Ahmadi mosque. What kind of proof would you like?

After Gujrat violence, I heard accounts of 7 or 8 temples/Gurdwaras destroyed or burnt down in Pakistani part of Punjab. Who knows how many Hindus and Sikhs were killed then. And you don’t think organized violence along religious lines is relevant? What about shia-sunni violence that gripped Karachi every Muharram when I was growing up? And you want proof that khutbas play a role? I don’t get what you are after. If you don’t like the word khutba, call it a speech … a oration … an address … and lecture … a discourse … an article … a booklet … a item published or broadcasted or aired or delivered on a loudspeaker … on paper … whatever fancies you … but you are missing the obvious here …

Not every person listening to such khutbas goes on a killing spree … agreed. But not every person in Hong Kong caught the SARS virus either. Does this mean SARS did not exist?

Reaction of the ummah …

If ummah continues to react violently … it will remain frustrated and miserable. It is sheer idiocy for them to cultivate a culture of violence … and expect civility and respect in return. Salman Rushdie was a nameless schizophrenic before fatwas of death. Van Gogh was probably a nameless third-rate producer … but now his movie will fetch blockbuster revenues.

Giving in to violent reactions inexorably prolongs one’s suffering. Today the ummah is at the receiving end of the cycle they perpetuated. Blaming the Jews or the CIA is not only futile, but also dangerous. I cannot convince you if you keep referring to court of law and continue to ask for “proof”. Maybe arjun has been on to something all along …

arjun asks ``Is Pakiland occupied by the brits? No? Then why are brit-pakis plotting terrorist attacks against the UK?``

Fine. You got me. Lets make a deal. From now on you will not hold me or my faith responsible for actions of any of the 1.2 billion muslims. And I will not hold you or your faith responsible for the modern day slavery aka H-1b coder sweatshops in the heart of freedom loving america. These slave shops are not run by chinese, or philipinos or malaysians. These are almost exlusively run by adherents of hindu religion.

Deal?

Urstruly (#231),

Cool pic … but how come it doesn’t show the giant, fire-breathing donkey of the one-eyed dajjal? And don’t overlook the hadith where Prophet Muhammad foretold that in the days of the Messiah, scholars of the ummah will be the vilest of Allah’s creations. I didn`t make this up ...

When digging into Quran, Bible etc. it is good to use common sense and civility … and to avoid acting like an evangelical haraaaa.... (to quote Ana, who succintly got to the point on this one).

Moving on …

Since you fervently asked: ”For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ …“ (Matthew, 24:5) … applies to evangelicals … who twist and mass-preach the message of Christ. Furthermore, this probably applies to those as well who incorrectly claimed to be prophets and Messiahs. Remember, among all such claimants, one will be the true one. And he will NOT be a two thousand year old man descending from clouds on shoulders of angels … but will be a human … like all others prophets raised by Allah Almighty (see, hadith support coming of a future prophet).

The question is … which one is the true Messiah. Quran gives the answer … when it states that those who associate lies with Allah will be humiliated in this world. To my knowledge, all the fake ones who claimed to be prophets and/or Messiahs were humiliated and killed, in one way or another. On the other hand, Mirza Sahib lived a full life, openly claimed to be the Messiah foretold by Prophet Muhammad and the Bible, claimed to be prophet of Allah, and died a peaceful death at the age 72. Four hundred thousand people accepted him in his lifetime … and thousands of them had visions and dreams attesting to his truthfulness. Accounts of these men are available for all.

This one was easy. Got any more?

arjun,

........ on the same report on npr i heard that the germans not only recognized polygamy but also paid out welfare to abdul`s multiple wives ........needless to say, i had to stop the car to puke !............ on top of that about three years ago they made the mistake of allowing the ummah to conduct religious classes in public school ............ now the poor germans are running scared !

............ we don`t need to make the same mistake in this country and start making concessions to a group of people which hates everything about the society in which they live ....... otherwise, like the dutch and the germans we will rue the day we tried to be nice .........

Romair#206:
Thomas Walkom, as you said, is a columnist for Toronto Star. He represents his own opinion and not that of the editorial board of the newspaper. I have seen some fairly critical op-ed columns in New York Times as well.

FYI, Toronto Star, despite its large circulation, is considered a Toronto and not a national paper. You wont find any bureaucrat in Ottawa starting his day with TS, as they do with the Globe and Mail. The National Post makes a distant second. Even when you go to hotels in any city, including Toronto, you are likely to find the Globe or the Post at your doorstep in the morning. Of course, when you visit someone in Toronto, you are much more likely to see The Star than the Globe.

That said, Canadian thinking is more akin to that of Kerry Democrats than of Bush Republicans. But that could radically change if some dramatic incident happens here. I saw this happen to the Hindus after Godhra killings, Australians after Bali bombing and now in Germany and Netherlands after the Van Gogh killings. Canada may be just one incident away from such a fate. Canada is one of the five countries on Al Qaeda`s hit list (US, UK, Spain and Australia are the other four) and documents from captured Al Qaeda operatives in Pakistan have revealed pictures of potential Canadian targets.

Public opinions are a very fickle barometer to count on. You are much better off going with the mass psychology. If I were you, I would start sending letters to the editors condemning the Moroccan assasin without ifs, buts and howevers. Hamidms -not Urstrulys- are your best friends.

#232 by arjun_m
//..Extremist Threats Put Netherlands in Turmoil...//

Yep - Islamic Extremists have pulled off yet another fast one. Yet another peaceful, secualr, liberal, resource-rich nation which welcomed and fed and educated these folks, embraced them and provided them life and livelihood - has been turned upside down.

At the same time - I cannot help but compare this situation to what India has gone thru past decade and more. With all due sympathies to the dutch, the fellow-victims of Islamic Terror, let me say this: In a perverse way, it feels vindicated to see that just because of one murder by the muslim terrorists, an entire developed,western,liberal,strong country has been thrown into unprecedented Turmoil.

Just one incident of a terror attack, involving just one loss of life [ This is not to reduce this hole despicable incident into a mere statistics, but to underline a point] and an entire nation has been thrown in to chaos, seige mentality, fear psychosis, over-reaction and all other sorts of emotions which usually befall on victims of terror attacks. [which of course , is very understandable].

And yet, when India went thru the same terror, day in and day out, for years at length - all we heard from everybody is sermons and more sermons. None of these worthy folks from western world - who one would expect to be sympathetic and understanding - ever lifted a finger, nor any of them said a sympathetic word to alleviate or even recognize the problems ....... or at the least - be even-handed in their non-stop criticisms. Even after our repeated pleas that - even though Indians are the victims today - it could be others tomorrow.

All we heard was sermons on Human Rights violations and other associated BS. Worthy leaders from these same nations never let a chance pass to throw salt into already bleeding wounds of a struggling, poor, resource-starved, diverse, secular nation, a democracy trying hard to set an example of pluralistic existence.

At the height of such incredible stupidity and short-sightedness - the good old US of A actually refused to classify the Indian Airlines hijacking in 1999 as a terrorist incident. As the entire Indian nation and diaspora watched helplessly and impotently - the worthy freaks from wetern world just sat on their hunches and enjoyed the show of a bunch of Indians dancing to the terrorist tunes. ``Ah these third world types - look at them, how foolish they are, bending over to the terrorists. Thanks god - this can never happen to us in the western world.``

Well - then it happened in the western world. Just like we have been saying all along.
Of course - there is hardly any satisfaction in saying ``we told you so``.

Malik99 #230,

``As for India, I am willing to bet that if British ever get a colonial itch and decide to
re-colonize India, and make a few Jalianwala massacres happen``

Since when has Pakistan been re-colonized by the Brits ? I suppose disingeneouity
only needs rhetoric to lean on.

sadna - various posts:
well written and to the point. more power to you.

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Folks, here is how blashphemy works in india

``The Shankaracharya of Kanchi, a powerful symbol of the sanatan dharma, was arrested on the night of Diwali and charged with murder. He was produced in court the next day, dubbed an `undeserving criminal` by the public prosecutor and remanded in police custody. He was allowed no special privileges and lodged in an ordinary jail. When he returned to court three days later, he was mocked for his aversion to rahukalam and for his unwillingness to sign documents.``

http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/22swapan.htm

Sattar:

``Violence on large scale has been carried out against Muslims … agreed. Most of it can (should?) be traced back to history of inter-religious rivalry among the Abrahmic trio.``

I don`t think it is based on history. It has more to do with political differences in the present day world. Historically, Jews and Christians have had the most differences, yet they are getting along fine, now.

``Ummah’s designs are equally brutal and violent … but they lack the means to carry them out. Theirs is a case of sour grapes more than anything else.``

I don`t think there is a concept of Ummah in Christianity or Islam, in the present world. Hence, one cannot base an argument on that. At the minimum, an Islamic Ummah would require a no-visa policy between various Muslim countries, and no national wars. Obviously, this does not exist. Visa restrictions are very strict in varoius Muslim countries, for other Muslims. And Iran-Iraq, Pakistan-Bangladesh, Kurds-Turkey etc. have been at war.

The only group that can be considered an, ``Ummah,`` currently, is the Jewish population. And that is because there are so few of them, and they only have one country, in the world. They tend to work in an, ``Ummah`` manner, regardless of where they live, i.e. every Jewish person is a virtual citizen of Israel. If not physically, at least in spirit and heart. If there were only one Muslim or Christiain country in the world, we would be like that, as well. But at the moment Muslims and Christians loyalties are more to their place of birth than to an Ummah, to the point of being racists against people of their own faiths, from other countries.

Since, an Ummah doesn`t even exist, it cannot be considered to be, ``brutal and violent`` as a whole. One cannot lay blame on somebody, under the assumption of, ``this is what they would do, if they could.`` It would never hold up in any court of law. And cannot be uniformally applied, in any case. For example, most of the Christian, ``Ummah`` is quite peaceful, other than the USA (and Serbia, etc.).

``Violent reaction of a jihadi against Van Gogh is likely rooted in jumma khutbas delivered by fanatic mullahs.``

This also cannot be proven. You are relying on huge assumptions. There are millions of khutbas, across the Islamic world. However, the number of Van Gough-like incidences can be counted on one`s fingertips. If the khutba theory is correct, every Muslim expat in every country should be doing the same. Yet they aren`t.

It`s no different than the American guy killing a Sikh, recently in Texas (??), because he thought he was Muslim. In fact, in that case, the guy didn`t even have a rudimentary reason, other than pure hate, to kill the Sikh. What khutba did he listen to? Perhaps the khutbas on Fox. Is the whole Christian ummah responsbile for what he did?

This is the whole point I am trying to make. One cannot start mapping everything on to an, ``Ummah.`` Especially since one cannot even prove there is an Ummah. And if one is going to map everything to an Ummah, then be fair, and map all individual actions to all Ummahs (Christians, Jewish, Hindu etc.).

In the end, the only objective way to decide who is, ``killing`` whom, is to count the number of people being killed. Not by attempting to associate theories to their motivations, which cannot be proven. And in that calculation, if one is bent upon looking at it through religious groupings of Ummahs (which is an incorrect way to look at it, in my opinion), then the Muslim Ummah is getting killed in far higher numbers by other Ummahs, than vice-versa. Hands down, no contest..........

HP:

Good post on 207.

#230

temporal sahib is no less of an ``armchair intellectual`` than the men you`ve listed. besides neither of the men you have listed have ever claimed to be intellectuals, armchair or otherwise.

babas are not perfect, they tend to be off the mark just as much as the humans they look condescendingly upon. :)

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