The Real Blasphemy

I agree with Bina Shah. Is such a murder justified or will it stop blasphemy in any way? Certainly not! It will increase hatred towards Muslims in general and the opinion that they are murdorous barbarians in particular. The musrder of a human being is like the murder of the whole humanity, which cannot be justified in anyway. The civilized world is giving up capital punishment by the State and we are still talking about whether it is right or wrong to kill a human being without due process of law. What a shame!

It think it was pathetic 2 write an article in favour of the ppl who`ll do anythin to disgrace ur religion.It`s funny how their minds always speak against Isalm,isn`t it?As if they`v dedicated their lives 4 givin respect 2 women.We all kno how much they respect women.

In the West:

-Prosti****n is legal in holland! Their `work places` r made into proper shops which r all over the streets of amsterdam.

-In uk,1/4th of the violence cases registered r of domestic violence.

n who knos wat else happens 2 them there.women there r like stray dogs.They`r lingerin around every corner of the streets n v all kno wat their profession is.

I don`t think it was blasphemous 2 make that film,but that controversial scene sure was.TI was overall wrong 2 preach lies n propaganda like that against a whole religion when they themselves commit such terrible sins.They`r all hypocrites.They always try 2 paint a gud n peaceful picture of themselves n want 2 defame their rivals.My q is:Y THE HELL WUD ANY1 WANT 2 MAKE A FILM ON SOMETHIN THAT FIRSTLY ISN`T TRUE N SECONDLY DOESN`T CONCERN HIM EITHER???!!!

They shud try 2 look into their ownselves b4 pointin at another.

My dictionary defines ”blasphemy” as
1. the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God
2. irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable.

If Muslims find a film “irreverent”, because it accuses Islam of condoning violence against women, then they might accuse Theo Van Gogh of “blasphemy”. But should Van Gogh be accused of “blasphemy”, if the film was true? Are there verses in the Koran that justify abusing women? Were the verses on the woman’s abused bodies the verses that justified the abuse? Should Van Gogh be accused of “blasphemy” against a religion he didn’t believe was true?

I predict Muslims will face many closed hearts, closed doors, and closed countries, if more non-Muslims begin to suspect that most Muslims believe is OK to kill people for “blasphemy” against a religion they don’t believe is true. I also predict that few people will accept that what the Moroccan did was anything but murder. Killing Van Gogh was not “blasphemy”, it was murder. I believe “real blasphemy” occurs when verses from the Koran are used to justify abusing women.

The solution is not to kill people who raise fingers, but to show them that they are doing so wrongly. What incidents like this will do for Islam is that next time around the commentary will not only include the Quran verses on naked bodies but also Van Gogh`s dead body will come up just to spur more hatred for Islam. Van Gogh acted like an idiot, and his killer has done no less damage to the image of Islam.

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Urstruly #333: Thanks for the responses. You are still beating around the Bush (pun intended), however.

Why are you unwilling to admit you migrated to the USA and are living there, because you want to enjoy the good life. Which is why the rest of us migrated. That is why Qazi Hussain’s daughter is living in the USA, with her family also, as he takes on the oppressor from Pakistan. At least he, himself, is in Pakistan.

As I said, it is essential to rid the Ummah of hypocrits, by exposing them. Especially those hypocrites, who encourage the rest of the Ummah to fight, while enjoying comforts in the belly of the oppressor. And I say this in all seriousness. No group can succeed, if its loudest spokespersons, themselves, indulge in hypocrisy. I am sure there are couple of ahadith on this.

“When I migrated to US the words ``United States`` would not invoke the images of babies with severed limbs and wailing widows cursing it.”

It is doing so now, so why are still there?

On a different note, the USA has been, from times immemorial, invoked images of, “babies with severed limbs and wailing widows cursing it.” I assume you did not migrate to the USA, before the Vietnam war. If you migrated in the 90s, then the USA had already bombed the hell out of Iraq, and was sanctioning them to death. Before that, it was unconditionally supporting anti-Palestinian forces. So this 5th argument, does not hold either.

“You are contradicting your own golden rule here that one has to live outside a certain country to qualify for criticising it.”

A person does not have to be outside a country to criticise it. They should just not migrate to a country, and continue to live in a country, which they consider the evil oppressor. You were born in Pakistan. It is your country. Live there and criticise it to your heart’s desire. People born in a country, have that right. But why migrate to one that you hate so much? That is what is wrong. And why live off its benefits and pay taxes into its war machine. Suppose I criticise the Indian Army for killing Kashmiris. Wouldn’t it be wrong for me to then leave Pakistan and join the Indian Army, even if they offer me a high salary?

Just out of curiousity, are you planning to join the US Army, in Iraq, anytime soon? Do you think that would be hypocricy? Or would that be the best way to criticise an oppressor, i.e. from the inside?

The other question that you did not answer:

- Why not migrate to Saudi Arabia or Sudan? Why specifically the USA?

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Give me an Omar Sheikh (of the infamous Daniel Pearl murder case) any day over a hypocrite like Urstruly. At least the former, a Brit Paki and LSE drop out, did what he thought was avenging injustices to his Muslim brethren, while all Ursy does is to shed crocodile tears over the plight of his fellow Muslims while continuing to comfortably live (like a parasite, if I may add) off the very ideology he despises.

Like they say, ``Dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka``.

I am sorry to say that some gentlemen have started using this forum for personal `jugat baazi` like a Punjabi stage drama. I would request them to please stop their `Phakarh baazi`, be serious and relevant to the topic under discussion. Thank you.

Romair:

When you applied for an 1-20 or H1-B visa at the US Embassy, they must have asked you why you are migrating to the USA. Did you tell the truth and say, ``I am migrating to fight the opressor from the inside,`` or did you lie

When I migrated to US the words ``United States`` would not invoke the images of babies with severed limbs and wailing widows cursing it. So I did not have to lie.


If you are fighting the opressor from the inside, then wouldn`t it be better to fight the Pakistani oppressor(s) from the inside first, by staying there? Or by fighting the USA in Iraq by moving there? Why specifically fight the US opressor, from the comforts of the USA? Is it because life here is better, while you are fighting the opressor?


You are contradicting your own golden rule here that one has to live outside a certain country to qualify for criticising it. Isn`t it? Isn`t it what lit up fire under your tail in the first place? So I have to live in Pakistan to be able to critcize it but I should get out of US to be able to criticize it. You need a shrink I think. You obsession with this ridiculous argument is scaring me now.


Look Romair you cannot win this argument. Never. The very basic premise of your moral stand is wrong. You support NaPak fauj in Pakistan that has become an international symbol of being rogue and illegitimate. It has no respect for the the constitution nor it has any respect for the lives of the people who feed it with their blood and sweat to keep it strong. Probably, NaPak fauj is the only army in the world that has turned the notions of defeat and surrender into an art form. It is the only army in the history of mankind who has surrendered in the numbers exceeding 90,000. It is the only army in the world who has raped its own constitution more than any other army in the world. It is the only army whose Generals are the rischest Generals in the world. It is the only army in the world whose generals are fukking drug pushers and weapon dealers. Give it up Romair. I beg you in the name of Pakistan give up supporting these murderous cowards. For the sake of its people come join us, the people of Pakistan, who want to establish a law abiding society in Pakistan.

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Dear (urs)Tooly
May I hazard few guess on why you are here?
3. Your plan is to serve USA like a slave so that they forget to do work themselves. Ummah will than blackmail USA by threatening to withdraw you.
2. Ummah`s purpose in sending you to USA was to bring down average IQ of USA
1. Ummah really didn`t want you. They thought that sending you to USA will really strengthen remaining Ummah.

A conservative`s take on why the violent public reaction.
http://www.techcentralstation.com/112204AA.html

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Urstruly,

Since you studiously bob & weave around the question ``why are you STILL living in the US?`` & give silly answers like ``I dont want to leave at the first sign of trouble``........

if I think in just one dimension of logic; I can conclude that your reason for living in the US is that you are an Al-Qeeda operative of some kind--maybe not the kind who flies aircraft into skyscrapers

---

but with your engineering background, I can think of a 100 reasons why Al-Qeeda needs people of your skills living in the US--with a nice legal ``front`` job,....esp, when you feel that resistence-violent resistance to America the oppressor is a just cause...

er..ofcourse I dont think 1 dimensionally:)

Urstruly,

I have lived more years in the US than I`ve lived in India & this is the 5th Presidential election I`ve voted in. Unfortunately, though, I have the knack of usually voting for the losing candidate:(

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Urstruly: Thanks for the replies..You missed a question or two:

You seem to be suggesting that you are in the USA to fight the, ``opressor`` from the inside. This would be reason no. 4. on why you live in the USA.

- When you applied for an 1-20 or H1-B visa at the US Embassy, they must have asked you why you are migrating to the USA. Did you tell the truth and say, ``I am migrating to fight the opressor from the inside,`` or did you lie?

- If you are fighting the opressor from the inside, then wouldn`t it be better to fight the Pakistani oppressor(s) from the inside first, by staying there? Or by fighting the USA in Iraq by moving there? Why specifically fight the US opressor, from the comforts of the USA? Is it because life here is better, while you are fighting the opressor?

- Why not migrate to Saudi Arabia or Sudan? Why specifically the USA?

The reason I ask this is that I think Muslims are inflicted with a lot of hypocrisy and hypocrits. Such individuals enjoy comforts of the opressor, while egging on others to fight.....I am just wondering if you are one of them....

So as it turns out ``H`` word was the restricted word that was keeping my post from getting posted

Shank309

I thought you left for Karnatk, after your H-1 had expired. I can live with indesent H alright, because I am getting used to it, it is the decent H that scare the hell out of me. They are usually the Am way salespersons.

You keep giving different reasons for staying in the US

I don’t think a person who runs away at the first sign of trouble has any right to ask this question to those who choose to stay and fight the system from with in. If they kick me out or their oppression becomes unbearable for me and the safety of my family is jeopardized then I might leave, as it became unbearable for me to live in Pakistan. Leaving ones country is not an easy business. I understand your desperate urge to vent your frustration pointing toward this aspect repeatedly but I think I will keep it that way as long as it gives me the pleasure of frustrating you.

If it does happen, will you then migrate out of the USA, since it will have been nuked by Pakistan

I don’t think that Damascus is in United States, therefore, I think I will stay here.

Do you want the above to happen, since it is in the Hadits you have quoted

I do not want above to happen, but I am only one side of the equation. The political problems that Muslim world faces today can be resolved in the matter of couple of years, if tried honestly. The Palestinian issue can be resolved in a matter of six months if US and West act as honest brokers or even if they just let the world community under UN resolve this issue but they don`t. The support of dictators can be avoided if they reach out to the helpless humanity who is suffering under these dictators. The plundering of other people`s natural resources is because of shameless glut. Under a study conducted by Oxford university, government of UK can maintain the current level of services for the next 500 years even when the generation of wealth stops today. They have accumulated so much wealth during the centuries of colonialism. The same goes for US and other Western nations as well. When they have all that then what they do now to the helpless humanity becomes pure evil. It is a crime against humanity and It must be stopped.

Part ii

If you do, do you think the above will actually happen

It is quite possible. Imperialists are working over time to avoid this eventuality. Pakistan`s and Iran`s nuclear disarmament is a part of this awareness.

I am gonna try to post my reply in parts

Part 1
Do you believe Hadith to be genuine

Whereas this Hadith is the part of Shi’a core belief system, the opinion among Suni Ullema is divided. Those who question the authenticity of this string of Hadits is of the opinion that since coming of Messia is an issue of utmost importance, therefore, a hint should have been given in the Quarn as well, but there ain`t none. On the other hand those who claim this hadith to be true and authentic base their opinion on the fact that the narrators of this hadits are all trustworthy and genuine and there are hundreds if not thousands of Hadits that are already attributed to them plus there are several hadits already considered authentic for which we do not find a reference in Qura`n either, but they are considered authentic so why not these particular Ahadits.

My personal, uneducated opinion is that the Ahadits are true, but since they are not backed by Qura`n so they are not a part of my belief system - meaning whether I believe in them or not makes no difference to my faith. I believe that the emergence of a global Muslim leadership that will unite all Muslims under one banners is an inevitability. The process has already begun where different sects of this faith are questioning and examining each other`s practices. Muslims are also increasingly differentiating between cultural practices and the faith itself. I call this the globaliztion of faith. This globalization is happening at breakneck speed because of the post 9/11 world challenges. As Lenon once said that no single person can bring a revolution, the circumstances for a revolution come into existence first, and then a person comes along and leads other through the process. Even the life of Holy Prophet (pbuh) is a proof positive of Lenon`s words.

For some absolutely strange reason I cannot post my reply to the particular questions/comments that people have addressed to me, on any of the board. Probably, Chowk staff has set up some kind of filter that doesn`t let posts with certain words in them let thru. I tried on other boards as well but same results. I just posted a post at temporals borad just to check, it is working fine but not one particular post that I want to get through

arjun_m
#298

It would be most ironic if that lawyer turns out jewish!:)

dost-mittar,

Thankyou, my friend
On Thanksgiving Day, I`m banned from going into the kitchen & I got the weekend off.
With the whole world (not just Chowk) going nuts; psychiatrists have precious little spare time. At least we shrinks have to be thankful that we will never ever go out of business

---

even if outsourcing comes to psychiatry!:)

It is nice to see several familiar faces--even Urstruly--though I do wish he was living on the wrong side of Windsor tunnel.

Shankar:

Jai Shiv-Shankar! Swagatam Bhole Nath.
Welcome back my friend. Where have you been? Your prescriptions are sorely missed. In your absence, the whole chowk seems to have gone nuts, not just one or two of your favourite patients. Hope, we`ll hear from you more often.


MBZ Isphahani:

``ie Canadajaal = cana dajaal
cana=one eyed
jaal =networking ``

Hey, you can be creative sometimes. Keep your posts funny and I might be tempted to read them even.

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#309 by shankar on November 24, 2004 4:50pm PT

Consider reframing the question:

What is the similarity between you and OBL?

#303 by arjun_m on November 24, 2004 10:13am PT

Thanks for the link.

Apparantely Van Gogh had only directed the thing- the writer was a muslim- and the issues were relevant, a very personalized feminist dialogue with the almighty!!!

#309
Maybe urstruly sees himself as the brits sitting in india did - overlords who by & large had nothing but contempt for the locals.

Urstruly,

Happy early Thanksgiving mullaji,
Hope youre going to imbibe a turkey tomorrow...er...do they sell halal turkey?

You eat America`s food...
you drink America`s water...
you deposit your dump in America...
but you hate America! You have NOTHING to be thankful for!!!
Can you PLEASE tell me WHY youre still in the US??!!

Granted, I`m a hindu...utterly incapable of moral values....but even an immoral creature like me sees something truly immoral about being a frikking namaak-haram.

I just cant imagine living in an environment whose values & culture I detest! I cant, for the life of me understand how people like you & farangi_kush make it. Its one thing to criticise the land you live in....Americans do that all the time...but to make a plea for an armed ``jihad`` against it!?

Whats the difference between you & OBL?

sattar: ``I keep bringing up the Ahmadi issue” … since it shows the ugly side of ummah that you insist on ignoring.``

Urstruly: ``A person of desi ancestory who can be so disrespectful to Prophet can either be a Quadiani, or a Quadiani-turned-atheist, or a Hindu. Hindu because they have no moral values whatsoever. I am pretty sure that you are not a Hindu, since you can talk about things like human rights etc., at least, and that brings me to my second guess. And that makes the issue of Quadianis relavent.``

One guy says I am, ``ignoring`` the Ahmedi issue, due to my views. The other guy declares me to be an Ahmedi, due to my views..........Damned if you do, damned if you don`t :-)

sattar2: #various: Here are line by line answers to your points. I have a feeling you are not reading my replies, because you keep agreeing with much of what I stated, yet keep saying that I disagree:

``I explained my use of ummah in post #153 (those with a coercive and violent take on Islam).`

Ummah and ulema are too different terms. Why not use them correctly.

``Regarding Christians and Jews getting along … 50 years ago we saw holocaust of Jews. 50 years is a nothing in lives of nations. You are speaking way too soon here.``

I cannot predict the future. I can only comment about the situation today.

``Blaming the Jews and the CIA will continue to delude the ummah into believing that they themselves are not at fault. To the first degree, ummah is in a mess that they themselves created. No nation has power over others ``

Please read my previous reply. I only blamed CIA and the Jewish lobby for two things. Occupying Palestine. And giving false info about Iraq. I am not sure why you keep stretching that to blaming them for everything. For most other things, I have always said, people need to look internally.

So, for the record, an overwhelming majority of the problems with the Muslim society are internal. Not the CIA and Jews` fault. However, the, ``Ummah`` is not guilty of every single problem in the world, either. Is it? You seem hell-bent on blaming Muslims for anything and everything. I don`t know why.

`` I keep bringing up the Ahmadi issue” … since it shows the ugly side of ummah that you insist on ignoring. It is not an Ahmadi issue, but an ummah issue; note the distinction.``

There are only a handful of non-Ahmedi Muslims in Pakistan, who think the state shouldn`t decide who a Muslim is or not. And I happen to be one of them. After arguing for this, for five years, on this site, I am surprised you state that, ``I am ignoring it.`` Once again, what are you trying to get at? The, ``Ummah`` is responsible for this, but what does that have to do with this discussion.

We are not debating whether all Muslims are a bunch of idiots (as you seem convinced). Maybe they are. We are (were) debating that within relgious violence, far more is being committed against Muslims than vice-versa.

``And what about violence against hindus and Sikhs … shia-sunni issue … witch-hunt of apostates, adulterers, blasphemers … preached by mullahs and carried out by the ummah in the name of Islam? Ignoring all this … while blaming Fox network is sheer lunacy … what’s next? … will you now tell us that MBZ Isphahani is your cousin…?``

Once again, nowhere did I blame Fox for this. It is a problem which is internal to the Muslim society, and they need to solve it.

Please argue the issue based on what I said. Not by associating things to me that I never said. Every single thing you have mentioned above, I never stated. You are providing your own argument and then knocking it down, and associating it with me.

Interesting discussion. Some questions for some individuals:

Urstruly:

`` My #231 is a piece of information and not an opinion.``

You have quoted Hadith to show that the USA is the Dijjal and will be nuked by a Hindi army, near Damascas.

- Do you believe Hadith to be genuine?
- If you do, do you think the above will actually happen?
- Do you want the above to happen, since it is in the Hadith you have quoted?
- If it does happen, will you then migrate out of the USA, since it will have been nuked by Pakistan?

``These Haramkhor faujis have occupied every resource of the country and deprived people like me every opportunity to earn Rizq-e-Halal. It is because of them I am sitting in this cold bland and godforsaken country of religious nuts and biggots.``

You keep giving different reasons for staying in the USA. Initially, you were, ``duped,`` into staying in the USA. Then you said you were marking time to go to Scandanavia. Now you say, you are in the USA, because the fauj will not allow you to earn Rizq-e-Halal. My questions:

- Which reason is the real reason?
- Didn`t you migrate to the USA, before the fauj took over?
- Why did you specifically chose USA, for Rizq-Hilal. Why not go to Saudi Arabia or Sudan (two countries with Shariah)?

My guess is that you are here for the same reason we are here, i.e. to live the good life. But are unwilling to admit it

``

Romair:

This isn`t about condemnable murders but about blasphemy and freedom of speech and how some people believe that Islam should be above freedom of (offensive!) speech.

As for derogatory remarks about muslim figures by Indians (you mean Hindus, I believe), Hindus dont spare their own religious figures from mocking, why would they spare another`s? Actually, the overwhelming majority of practising Hindus hold religious figures of all religions in great esteem and any dargah or mazar in India will be full of hindu devotees. It is just that there are many more hamidms among hindus than among muslims.

hamidm …

… I am almost done with my 5-year hard labor term as a green-card holder … and if any, this would have been a good time for my passport to say I am NOT a muslim … who knows how long my citizenship will now take. Bad timing … bad timing ...

… on the same note … I recently went through the NICOP, POC, S-1 forms business … what a #$%^ing nightmare! Anyone who recognizes any of this, deserves sympathy. Bureaucrats have no idea how difficult it is to take passport photos of a two-month old … I got billed for a pile of wasted polaroids. If there’s a billing problem … and you don’t speak cantoneese … you’re out of luck ... welcome to california …

... you’re probably right … I am playing symphony to the deaf here. First, the ummah did not exist … and now the ullema do not exist either. But Zionists and CIA are everywhere ...

Bina,

This is news to me … and a step in the right direction … although with a caveat. You’d probably agree that passport form in itself is not a problem … but a symptom of a deeper issue. Let`s hope there is a fundamental change in place in our collective outlook here …

Urstruly,

More than the thanksgiving turkey, you deserve to be stuffed … and I don’t mean dressing …

++++

That’s all folks … I`m off for the weekend … enjoy the holidays …

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Dost-Mittar #295“And why should muslims be more enflamed than others?”

They shouldn’t. Nor are they.

To me the most enflamed community in the world are the Americans, at the moment. And the most enflamed community in India is the RSS/BJP, at the moment. Both these have committed the most violence, within their spheres of influence. Generally, every Muslim on this site has stated that the Morrocon guy deserves the death penalty. Yet there are still US supporters, who are unwilling to even acknowledge the state terrorism committed by the USA. And quite a few hardcore supporters of BJP, as well.

All communities get enflamed; albeit about different things. They each have different things they are sensitive to. Some are sensitive to religion, others are sensitive to ethnicity, others to culture, etc. My guess is you don’t have a problem with people being enflamed. You just would rather have them be enflamed through a vehicle, other than religion, i.e. if I said I am enflamed as a Canadian, a Pakistani, or a Punjabi-speaker, you would be ok with it. But if I say I am enflamed as a Muslim, you would have issues.

Much of who is considered, “enflamed,” and what happens to be under a Western, “microscope” depends on who the USA is in conflict with. When the Americans were fighting the Soviets, it was the, “damn commies” who were considered enflamed and were put under a microscope. Ironically, the Mujahideen and Taliban at that time were considered pious holy warriors. They were compared to US Revolutionary war fighters, by Reagan. In fact, Pakistanis, Saudis and other Muslims were encouraged to get, “enflamed” and fight the Godless commies.

Being enflamed through Islam, back then, was a good thing. Because Americans thought it was a good thing.

However, it is unfair to just use the Western criteria as the only criteria of who is more enflamed. A more objective criteria needs to be used, i.e. the most enflamed communities are the ones that carry out the most killings. Isn’t there a direct relationship between the amount of violence one commits and the how enflamed he/she maybe. And, as I keep saying, the amount of violence being committed against Muslims is far more than vice-versa. Why are you unwilling to look at this statistic?

“If these reverred figures are tried for perpetrating frauds on humanity and causing wars, they may have a hard time defending themselves.”

Yes, then go ahead and try them. That is better than trying to humiliate other religions. I think one should be allowed to make any statement about anybody, and as long as he/she can validate it, that should be fine. But if he/she cannot, he should be held liable. At the bare minimum, be forced to offer an apology.

I can never figure out why people want to make fun of others’ religions. On this site, there have been hundreds of derogatory remarks about my religion (mostly from our Indian colleagues). Yet, I have never once made a derogatory remark about Hinduism. Has that made me any less of a person, or has that made my arguments weaker? Is my belief in freedom of speech any less, because I don’t humiliate Hindu religious figures?

“Isn`t that one of the root causes of anti-semitism or is it the result of that anti-semitism? In any case, I do not wish the historical fate of jews on any other group, relgious or otherwise.”

I don’t know. What I do know is that expat Muslims (specifically those in the USA) need to get their act together, soon. And they need to realize that they have to act as a united community, and demand their rights. Rather than disintegrating due to infighting.

hamidm,

I know few of your types who chomp down on pork chops and my types who look down upon burger eaters.

True story. Years back, I used to invite lot of hindu, muslim and gorey for a party and cook ONLY burgers, and my buddy do the same but serve only pork chops. Just for fun. The funnest part used to be these unending religious questions from goreys.

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Lest we forget, here yet another one from the Jessus Mullahs

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/24/opinion/24kristof.html?hp

The ``Left Behind`` series, the best-selling novels for adults in the U.S., enthusiastically depict Jesus returning to slaughter everyone who is not a born-again Christian. The world`s Hindus, Muslims, Jews and agnostics, along with many Catholics and Unitarians, are heaved into everlasting fire: ``Jesus merely raised one hand a few inches and . . . they tumbled in, howling and screeching.``

Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, the co-authors of the series, have both e-mailed me (after I wrote about the ``Left Behind`` series in July) to protest that their books do not ``celebrate`` the slaughter of non-Christians but simply present the painful reality of Scripture.


++++

Jeez man - what`s going on here? President of US wins on religious pandering - and then the best-selling novel in US is the one that predicts extermination of non-christians? Are the so called monotheist sons of abraham going nuts here? Freaking mullahs have already captured their base, Now Jesus Mullahs are spreading their wings over evengelical christians - who are 1/3rd of US population. This is nuts!!

Atif2:

``you did not mention the motel owning Patels in American south who habitually utter ``no vacancy`` or ``motel is phull`` to the black customers. And the next moment when a white walks in, they miraculously find a room for him.

so yeah, really, what is it in the hindu teachings that makes them treat dark (darker than indians) people with disgust? Really, what is it? ``

Yaar, we also know Pakistanis in real life. You really want me to believe that Pakistani attitudes towards blacks are different? For all the Hindu-Muslim crap, we are also very similar in many ways. You`ll see that when you bring a black girlfriend hime, even if she is Muslim.

Romair#282:

``There is nothing wrong with being enflamed.``

When a large chunk of the community is enflamed, it is. Because when one or more people are enflamed enough to cause violent acts, there is a sympathy/support for this act in the community. The host community can sense this sympathy through the reactions and it results in retaliation, which can take the form of mob retaliation like attacking religious places of worship and institutions, or state retaliation in the form of deportation, immigration curbs and stricter monitoring/regulation of religious places. This is already happening in places as diverse as Singapore and Germany. To me, when the state starts monitoring and regulating religious affairs, this is a violation of secular ideals of separation of the church and state.

And why should muslims be more enflamed than others? Just last week, the most famous hindu religious figure was arrested on a charge of murder. Despite the attempts of the BJP and religious groups to arouse the Hindus` passions, it has hardly caused a stir in India. Contrast this with what happened in the Shah Bano case when the Supreme Court ordered a muslim to give a small alimony to his divorced wife. It aroused such huge passions among India`s Muslims that it shook the very pillars of the Indian constitution and the tremors from that earthquake are felt even today.

``One should condemn all such actions. I have suggested a solution. Take any grievances to court, and allow a legal system to give religious figures the same rights as Hollywood celeberaties.``

I think that others have already answered this question quite eloquently. If these reverred figures are tried for perpetrating frauds on humanity and causing wars, they may have a hard time defending themselves. I know that as far as hindus and buddhists are concerned, they wont even bother defending their holy books, that is if they can even agree upon which of their book has the status of The Scripture.

``ultra-liberal Jews and the ultra-orthodox Jews do not like each other. Much like Urstruly and Hamidm. But there is one difference. Whenever their is an external issue related to the Jewish community, as a whole involved, they all forget their differences and join hands. And they don`t, ``bend over and ask for more.`` They demand their rights. So much so, that even every US President thinks ten times before making a single comment about them.``

Isn`t that one of the root causes of anti-semitism or is it the result of that anti-semitism? In any case, I do not wish the historical fate of jews on any other group, relgious or otherwise.

vertex#287

You are right. I was writing in the context of non-muslim countries, with one possible caveat. If the impact of mullah`s messages is felt outside the muslim countries, there could be consequences for those countries as is happening now in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan- I am not including Iraq in this group because I believe that there is no direct relationship there.

teshah:
Thank you for the clarification.

Captain …

I “keep bringing up the Ahmadi issue” … since it shows the ugly side of ummah that you insist on ignoring. It is not an Ahmadi issue, but an ummah issue; note the distinction. It shows what the ummah is capable of doing if given a chance … which you find hard to swallow … and which makes you ask for proof that will stand in the court of law.

And what about violence against hindus and Sikhs … shia-sunni issue … witch-hunt of apostates, adulterers, blasphemers … preached by mullahs and carried out by the ummah in the name of Islam? Ignoring all this … while blaming Fox network is sheer lunacy … what’s next? … will you now tell us that MBZ Isphahani is your cousin…?


Urstruly,

Keep talking … your posts support my contention about ummah’s jihalat and a defeatist outlook.

romair #282 Again i will reiterate what I said- Someone painting a whole community according to the act of a few people is wrong.Cannot be more wrong than that. But here what is being done is pointing to a religion. How tolerant is a religion towards other religions, towards women n stuff.There is a difference.And that is what rubs off to its followers.
I will give an example from Hinduism to illustrate my point. There were caste divisions prescribed in Hinduism.Which book, I am not aware of and I dont care. But the hangover of that caste system still exists. Not all Hindus are casteists(if there is such a word) ,but some of them are. And it is because of Hinduism.This is a fault in it. So if a Hindu is not casteist ,it is inspite of the fact that he she is a Hindu,not because of it. All the people getting killed in caste violence are because of Hinduism.Giving them education and financial assiatance may or may not stop them from murdering each other, but again the point still remains that the influence of religion in that case is regressive. So , we have to point to that flaw in religion and if possible, legislate against the regressive aspects.
So, Islam, (not muslims) is pedantic and not very accomodating towards other faiths. This is a fault in Islam.It rubs off on some people,it doesnt on others. But, you have to recognize the fact that no religion is perfect,including Islam. Then.less people will be affected.

Bina

It appears you have hit a jack-pot, dear!

276 by dost-mittar

``The mullahs have to be stopped from teaching this particular aspect and issuing fatwas of blasphemy.``

I appreciate your comments about Islam and the Muslims which are quite objective and based on deep insight, but excuse me I do not totally agree with your remarks above. The tragedy is that this Illamdeeni cult of blasphemy lynching is very widespread and even some pseudo-intellectuals-cum-soofies like Ashfaq Ahmad who are otherwise staunch anti-mullah are proponents of this cult. The almighty Musharraf who has otherwise put the almighty Mullah on the defensive had to take back his suggestion for a minor procedural change in the LOB.

Blasphemy lynching, in fact, is a Cult which has little to do with Islam. The problem is that it is not defined at all. So one can call any body claiming to be a prophet an `imposter` even and afterwards say whatever one likes provided one has the might to face the reaction.

urstruly,

............ you are one angry muslim ! .........``It is because of them I am sitting in this cold bland and godforsaken country of religious nuts and biggots. ``......... so now we are blaming the faujis for living in dar-ul-harb ?...........if you don`t like it, leave ........ after all, didn`t muhammad leave mecca ? ...........maybe you too can return with a victorious army and knock down the lincoln memorial and tear down the holocaust museum ...........look, even romair emigrated to canukistan and is busy drawing up plans to bring down the us it industry with help from allies in anarkali and gowalmandi ..........

............. be a man, admit it - you want to have your halwa and eat it too ........... but please stop biting the hand that puts out the bowl of halwa ..........

plats8 write ``I just checked with the HR department in my company....it is a large IT firm
Over the past year, the starting salary of an H1-B here with about 3-4 years of
experience has been roughly $93,000 - slavery, indeed. ``

You know plats8, there is a whole world that exists outside of your ``large IT firm``. And getting to know and understand that world is much different than learning by rot all the microsoft certification exams.

I am afraid you have not followed the discussion on H1B slavery well. That american owned, white operated companies pay well was never in contention. The discussion was about those hindoos owned slave sweat shops that are being run as ``recruiting / consulting`` firms in america.

Regards

Romair

Your #283 is an unfortunate post. Please do not attribute your ``opinion`` as my ``statement``. My #231 is a piece of information and not an opinion.

However, I do owe a grudge to the dictator and I think the mentioning his name is absolutely relavant. This dictator and others like him have been installed upon us by the US. These Haramkhor faujis have occupied every resource of the country and deprived people like me every opportunity to earn Rizq-e-Halal. It is because of them I am sitting in this cold bland and godforsaken country of religious nuts and biggots. So faujis have to be cursed upon- because you support them by going out of the way so that they can maintain this system of oppression, injustice, and pilfrage of natural resources.

The Quadiani issue is relavant because a Quadiani out of nowhere comes and makes it an issue - unprovoked if I might add. In the past you yourself have been disrespectful to Holy Prophet (pbuh) as well. You have been addressing him by his first name like the pagan beduins used to do and then in Chapter Al-Hujrat (the living quarters) Allah swt Himself instructed Muslims to address Holy prophet with all due respect. A person of desi ancestory who can be so disrespectful to Prophet can either be a Quadiani, or a Quadiani-turned-atheist, or a Hindu. Hindu because they have no moral values whatsoever. I am pretty sure that you are not a Hindu, since you can talk about things like human rights etc., at least, and that brings me to my second guess. And that makes the issue of Quadianis relavent.

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Romair,

Misc. points

I explained my use of ummah in post #153 (those with a coercive and violent take on Islam).

Regarding Christians and Jews getting along … 50 years ago we saw holocaust of Jews. 50 years is a nothing in lives of nations. You are speaking way too soon here.

Why blame the Jews or the CIA …

Blaming the Jews and the CIA will continue to delude the ummah into believing that they themselves are not at fault. To the first degree, ummah is in a mess that they themselves created. No nation has power over others … except what the victims themselves allow. Once they admit this and make amends, they can blame the Jews, the CIA or what not.

The Palestinians initially sold their land to the Zionists … what were they thinking? You’ll probably write this off once again … but Ahmadi leadership back then warned Palestinians against selling their land to the Zionists. But the ummah was too busy chasing Ahmadis out of their mosques to pay heed. Zionists exploited a weakness in the ummah … but the ummah is responsible for being weak in the first place. Failure to come to grips with this will only result on more loss and damage to the ummah itself.

Mullah … the leaders of the deluded ummah

All ullema are in agreement that blasphemers, adulterers, apostates should be killed. How could all of them, independently, come to the same conclusion … esp. when Quran and overwhelming evidence from ahadith negate all this? They also unanimously declared Ahamdis non-Muslim behind closed doors. You argue that ullema “should not exist” … while ignoring the fact that they ”do” exist. This is somwehat like your take on the ummah concept as well.

I mentioned Munir report … riots against Hindus … the shia-sunni riots that gripped Karachi every moharram … and you don’t want to blame the mullahs for inciting hatred and violence? Blaming the Fox news network is not an intelligent, helpful response.

Ummah’s designs … and their blissful incompetence

You ask me for Muslim countries occupying non-Muslims lands. As I earlier mentioned … ummah’s designs are just as brutal as those of the Zionists. However they don’t have the intelligence to carry out their plans. Don’t bother asking for proof that will stand in the court of law … it will make you look more clueless than ever.

Here are a few excerpts from Maudoodi … that I posted earlier. He was indeed one of the most respected leaders of the ummah. There are also hints at dealing with citizenship and visa requirements that keep bothering you. If you still want to separate ummah’s religion from its politics … take a hint!

Show me rebuttals from the “ullema” against this … that is, if you believe the “ullema” exist.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Maududi … on foreign policy and jihad

“Human relations are so integrated that no state can have complete freedom of action under its principles unless the same principles are in force in a neighboring country. Therefore, both for its safety and the general reform, a “Muslim party” will not be content with the establishment of Islam in just one area alone. It should try to expand in all directions. On one hand it will spread its ideology, on the other it will invite people of all nations to accept its creed, for salvation lies only therein. If this Islamic state has power and resources it will fight and destroy non-Islamic governments and establish Islamic states in their place.”

Haqiqat-e-Jihad (Reality of Jihad); Lahore: Taj Company Ltd., 1964; page 64, 65


Maudooi … on apostasy

[Who is this we, our that Maudoodi keeps referring to … could it be the ummah … that you claim does not exist?]

Elaborating on killing of apostates and “no compulsion in religion” commandment of Quran … Maudoodi explains: “This means we do not compel anyone to embrace our religion. This is true. But we must warn anyone who wishes to recant that this door is impassable to free traffic. If you wish to come, do so with the firm decision that your cannot escape.”

“There are two methods of dealing with an apostate. Either make him an outlaw by depriving him of his citizenship and allowing him mere existence, or end his life. The first method is definitely more severe than the second, because he exists in a state in which ‘neither lives nor dies’. Killing him is preferable. That way both his agony and the agony of society are ended simultaneously.”

Maudoodi, Murtad Ki Saza Islami Qanoon Mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), page 51.

More from Maudoodi on apostasy and Islamic revolution

“Whenever death penalty for apostasy is enforced in a new Islamic state, then Muslims are kept within Islam’s fold. But there is a danger that large number of hypocrites will live alongside them. They will always pose a danger of treason.

My solution to the problem is this. That whenever an Islamic revolution takes place, all non-practicing Muslims should, within one year, declare their turning away from Islam and get out of Muslim society. After one year all born Muslims will be considered Muslims. All Islamic laws will be enforced upon them. They will be forced to practice all of the obligatory duties (faraid) and optional duties (wajibat) of their religion and if anyone wishes to leave Islam, he will be executed. Every effort will be made to save as many people as possible from falling into lap of disbelief (kufr). But those who cannot be saved will be reluctantly separated from society forever. After this purification Islamic society will start afresh with Muslims who have decided voluntarily to remain Muslims.

Maudoodi, Murtad ki saza Islami qanoon mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), Lahore: Islamic Publications Ltd, 1950, page 80-81.

Malik99,

FYI, I just checked with the HR department in my company (it is a large IT firm,
employs a very large number of H1-B`s and yes, they`re mostly Indians and Chinese).
Over the past year, the starting salary of an H1-B here with about 3-4 years of
experience has been roughly $93,000 - slavery, indeed.

Feel free to ignore this as empirical and get back to your hallucinations now. Very
elegant change of topic, by the way. I can now clearly see how Theo`s killer and coders
employed by TCS operate under comparable conditions.

HP,

You`re right. There is/was a whole array of Indian companies that grossly
underpaid their people in the US working as contractors for US companies. But a
very large number of them jump ship soon enough to get regular positions at places
in the US - they bear the initial hardship to get a toehold here. My experience is anecdotal
but quite a few people I know did exactly this and there`s no reason to believe that
they are exceptions. The underpaying is a bad practice that the market will resolve in
its own way - evolution is a slow process at times.

About Indian/Pakistani doctors with the lower paying positions, these are teething
problems that most first generation immigrants have to go through. They certainly are
not worthy of derision (not that you did deride them). I wonder where all the contempt for
H1-B workers comes from.

dost-mittar,

``The mullahs have to be stopped from teaching this particular aspect and issuing fatwas of blasphemy. ``

I am perplexed if you are referring to Mullahs in general, or only those in the west. By your own philosophy, those in Muslim lands should be aware of the ``mass psychology`` of Muslims and adapt for their own benefit, as we Muslims are expected to do so in the West. There`s no luxury of personal ideals in the face of mass reaction, no?

Another blasphemy apologist article which appears to be arguing for the `Muslim` right to give 13th century European treatment to other Europeans(while receiving 21st century rights in return, of course). Hard times ahead for the moderates caught in between:(.

http://atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FK23Aa01.html

Raw_Dust #240
Thanks.

Urstruly #274: ``dont` think any lie or accusation (because you have run out of arguments) can make me reverse my position on the dictator or on Quadianis.``

First of all, why in the world do you (and sattar2) keep bringing the Ahmedi issue into every debate. And who is debating dictators? Whenever one has to bring in two other unrelated issues, into a debate, it is a sign that one is out of arguments.

``Lies and inherent hypocritical biases render your, otherwise, reasonable arguments, ineffective. I have never called upon the destruction of US, however, I do call for international measures to reign it in for its lawlessness....... ``

You have called upon the destruction the USA. Infact, you have done so on this board. Please read your reply #231:

``One of the prophecy predicts the appearnce of one-eyed Dajjal (Anti-Christ) - the embodiment of all evil that will envelope the whole world - close to the days preceeding the the Day of the Judgement......Another part of prophecies predict the nuclear attck (blindening light?) of Hindi (Pakistani?) army onto the forces of Dajjal near an area around Damascus under the command of Messiah. And that will defuse the threat and establish the world peace.``

So a nuclear attack on the Dajjal (with a picture of the US Dollar), thereby establishing world peace. What exactly does this mean?

If you want to call on the destruction of the USA, by all means do so. There is no law against not doing so. God knows, the USA, under the leadership of hamidm and Jerry Fallwell, itself, has called and caused the destruction of so many people. But after doing so, how in the world can you live off the benefits that the USA provides you? When push has come to shove, the USA doesn`t seem that bad to you after all.

Dost-Mittar #276: ``It is important not to link the two; Van Gogh was not killed by an Afghan or an Iraqi and not because of what Bush is doing over there``

I don`t think one can link the two, in this sense. I agree with you. The only point I am making is that if you are going to paint the actions of one person onto a whole group, then you must apply that rule to every community. Not just the Muslim community.

``It is better when linkages, if any, are pointed out by non-muslims. When muslims try to make such linkage, it reinforces the ummah perception.``

This maybe true. But, as I stated, one cannot live in fear. One should make a principled argument, based on facts. If someone uses it to reinforce the Ummah perception, so be it.

``And these killings, in my opinion, do have everything to do with Islam.``

I don`t think this is true, in general. If ten people kill somebody based on their interpretatin of a religion, there are 1.9999999 billion who don`t. There are Christians who blow up abortion clinics, in higher numbers.

``Adherents of no other religion get so enflamed about any references deemed to be disrespectful to their holy book or, especially, their prophet even when they are direct quotes from the book or ahdith.``

There is nothing wrong with being enflamed. One should just not turn it into violence. Which in this case, this person did. And he should be punished for that. Adherents of other groups do get enflamed by other actions. Everyone has something that enflames them.

``The mullahs have to be stopped from teaching this particular aspect and issuing fatwas of blasphemy.``

Yes, this is true. Not only should they be stopped, the whole concept of, ``mullah`` needs to be done away with. If you study Islam in detail, you will realize that there were two major thought processes that Islam revolutionized: 1) egalatarianism 2) doing away with the clergy

I saw the piece on the journalist. She is currently in Norway. Once again, it is wrong. And the Nigerian govt. should be held responsible for it. But, once again, I can point to so many such incidences in other areas, where a lot more poeple got killed.

One should condemn all such actions. I have suggested a solution. Take any grievances to court, and allow a legal system to give religious figures the same rights as Hollywood celeberaties.

The only point I am arguing is that apply the same standard for all communities. People shouldn`t try to put someone on the defensive just because one, two, or ten people out of 1.2 billion do something. If one is bent upon doing that, then do take into account the number of Muslims being killed also.

The other point I made was that, for a community to establish itself, it has to stand up for its rights. It cannot take an unnecessarily aggressive attitude like that of Urstruly, nor an overly apologetic one like Hamidm`s. Both will lead to disaster.

If you ever get a chance to study the Jewish community, do so. I had a Jewish roommate for two years. He was active in all their functions. There is an interesting thing I noticed about them. They have a lot of internal differences. The ultra-liberal Jews and the ultra-orthodox Jews do not like each other. Much like Urstruly and Hamidm. But there is one difference. Whenever their is an external issue related to the Jewish community, as a whole involved, they all forget their differences and join hands. And they don`t, ``bend over and ask for more.`` They demand their rights. So much so, that even every US President thinks ten times before making a single comment about them.

The Muslim communty (spefically in the USA), I think, will disintegrate, because the Hamidms and Urstrulys will never agree to unite on anything. They will destroy each other, without realizing the to the outsiders, they are one and the same thing.

There was a poll taken recently and 49% or so of the Americans agreed that all US Arabs, including those who are citizens, should have to carry special identification cards. They did not differentiate between Abdul Arabs and non-Abdul Arabs. Its about time both the Abduls and non-Abduls realized this, rather than trying to find safety in isolation or apology....

Hamid this is true. The new machine readable passports do not require you to enter your religion. Small steps for mankind but giant leaps for Pakistanis.

Cheers
Bina

re hamidm #246:

Just to keep the record straight, German laws can sometimes boggle the mind. An Indian friend of mine in a moment of weakness happened to impregnate an au-pair who was German. According to German law he is being paid a stipend for fathering a German kid and he gets two first class round trip tickets to Germany visit his son! Needless to say, these perks have been somewhat dwarfed by the divorce proceedings as well as the ensuing alimony payments.

H-1B`s by law are supposed to be paid the prevailing wage. However according to surveys, they generally get 10% to 20% less than their American counterparts holding similar jobs. Companies who employ large number of H-1B workers get a bunch of H-1B petitions approved when the year begins and assign them to employees once they hire them. A discount of 10% to 20% is not that significant when all most H-1B employees want is that the employer sponsor them for a green card. That is true not just for Indian but all nationalities.

later
-sac

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reportage on npr about german muslims is really worrisome...i mean if it makes good ol boys like hamidm and arjunm listen to liberal media like npr .. i hope it was in the privacy of their automobiles.

Romair is partially right...there is no Ummah in Reality. If Jihadis understood that it would not be a problem...but again that would be like accepting the reality as it is...that is not possible...Jihadism is all about fantasy - fantasy of death, fight, blood, honor, conquest, total submission and 72 hoors....so this Ummah is all imagined in their mind and they think it is real. When fantasy meets reality, people die, committ suicide or just move to a different country thinking Ummah is REAL and thriving there, very peaceful just following the supereme laws of allah...until Real Reality strikes again. Problem is this chasing the mirage of ummah from place to place, argument to argument day in day out.

Romair#259:

``But I must say I am surprised by your comment. It indicates a defeatist streak. I expected something better from someone like you.``

I have been a consistent critic of the US arrogance and illegal interventions in other countries. But it is important to point out to a few issues:

1. It is important not to link the two; Van Gogh was not killed by an Afghan or an Iraqi and not because of what Bush is doing over there.

2. It is better when linkages, if any, are pointed out by non-muslims. When muslims try to make such linkage, it reinforces the ummah perception.

3. And these killings, in my opinion, do have everything to do with Islam. Adherents of no other religion get so enflamed about any references deemed to be disrespectful to their holy book or, especially, their prophet even when they are direct quotes from the book or ahdith. The mullahs have to be stopped from teaching this particular aspect and issuing fatwas of blasphemy.

I wonder if you watched CBC`s news, The National, last night. In it, they covered the story of a 21 year old Nigerian girl who is trying to survive in a remote Norwegian village. Her crime? There is a fatwa on her head from the Mullahs in Nigera for writing a blasphemous piece in a Lagos newspaper during a controversy regarding the aborted Miss Universe contest in that country. And what was her blasphemy? She wrote that if the prophet were to be present at the pageant he might have picked one of the contestants as his wife. I presume that she made this remark because the prophet had several wives, just as the Hindu god Krishna. This remark caused riots in Nigeria; the govt. denied her any protection and she had to be smuggled out of the country. If this remark had been made about any other religious leader, they would have laughed it off by a remark such as Krishna/Jesus sure had a good eye for beauty. So, who is to blame? Was this teenaged christian insensitive to the feelings of muslims or does the religion, as interpreted in the mosques, teach intolerance? You be the judge?

malik99

I suggest you lay low and apologize to the H1B nation. They don`t behead, they burn you alive. You have been warned.

Romair

Lies and inherent hypocritical biases render your, otherwise, reasonable arguments, ineffective. I have never called upon the destruction of US, however, I do call for international measures to reign it in for its lawlessness. This lawlessness is hurting innocent human beings all across the globe. It is for America`s own good. Their arrogance and lawlessness will ultimately cause their own destruction. As far as I understand you are of the same opinion.

I do introspect. For example, I am one of the most vocal critic of our dictatorial regime in Pakistan. I consider it nothing but our shame. The neo-colonial powers currently are desperate for our help to control those people who are against their imperial designs, otherwise, Pakistan is a paraiah nation. As a matter of fact by all international standards it is a failed state where military with its unethical meddling into civilian affairs does not let any civilian government stand on its own feet. The political system that you support is a shame in the community of nations. No one pays attention to our grievances despite our doglike faithfullness and unquestionable servitude to the imperialists. Ever wonder why? The reason is simple. They can get what they want by using their puppet dictators - dictators who are not accountable to their own people and never felt an urge to do so either.

I do not subscribe to the western propaganda machinery that always bring out their own anti-Muslim agenda whenever incidents like Van gogh happen. Why should I be apologetic for their own biases. That is what you claim to do too but somehow when I do it, it becomes bad.

I dont` think any lie or accusation (because you have run out of arguments) can make me reverse my position on the dictator or on Quadianis. Obviously we disagree on these issues but it is not necessary that you have to use the crutches of plain lies and baseless accusations to make a point. After all this is not the end of the world- it is just a discussion forum for crying out loud.

Yo Malik Mian

There are no dearth of sticks to beat hinuds with [ hint ... starts with a G - that`s the biggest stick around at this time] But ``Code Coolies`` is hardly any of them. In fact ``Code Coolies`` are a rare and somewhat accidental success stories for hinuds.

Code coolies start with a salary of at least $45K a year - which is 10K more than average US salary and it almost doubles(90K) within 4/5 years in job. If that is ``slavery`` then what is your job, my man?

At least they pay the guy directly not his widow/survivors- the norm in the other type of IT.

malik99 # 254 - you did not mention the motel owning Patels in American south who habitually utter ``no vacancy`` or ``motel is phull`` to the black customers. And the next moment when a white walks in, they miraculously find a room for him.

so yeah, really, what is it in the hindu teachings that makes them treat dark (darker than indians) people with disgust? Really, what is it?

ROTFL

[quote]

..This slavery has become so serious, that an american association of software engineers has filed multiple lawsuits in this regard. And once again, this slavery is almost exclusively spearheaded by the adherents of hindu faith.

[/quote]

Made my day. Just one question if you please....;-)

When Mushy kisses arse and begs for the same ``coolie`` jobs from all and sundry on his trips to the US, is he trying to ``enslave`` the Paki population or trying to ``empower`` it?

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Malik99

``Hindu owned sweat shops recruit slaves, send them off to code for companies and charge those companies, say $80/hour. The coder slaves get as little as $20 / hr (which is just enough to keep them alive so their mental faculties stay intact to keep coding), the remainder $60/hr goes to the slave owner`s pocket.``

Malik saheb, now you are getting ridiculous. 75% of billing goes to ``slave owner`s`` pocket..

This site is owned by Shah, Safwan. I would guess by your rhetoric that he is a hindu. WIPRO is owned by PremJi who I guess is a hindu by your definition. Even Romair claims to be in software industry - ask him if he is a hindu or if he have 75% margin on his billing.

stuka rants ``A chutya with a three month diploma from a private institute in Edison NJ gets an easy $25 an hour.``

Not if that chutya needs sponsorship for greencard. In that case, the slave owner has him by the balls.

Your comparison of slaver trade in US and the the madrassa people in Pakistan is an apple-orange comparison. But then, I never accused of being fair minded either. A fair comparison would be the Pakistani owned businesses in US vs the Indian slave sweat shops.

malik99:

alrite time for a lecture on H1B`s..

---

``How about if i say ``prevailing wages my as$``. Either you are way too naive, or you simply reserve your deep analytical analysis for the issues pertaining to muslims only.

Hindu owned sweat shops recruit slaves, send them off to code for companies and charge those companies, say $80/hour. The coder slaves get as little as $20 / hr (which is just enough to keep them alive so their mental faculties stay intact to keep coding), the remainder $60/hr goes to the slave owner`s pocket...``

---

The H1B petition is approved by the labour department ONLY if the company agrees to pay the prevailing average wages.. What you`re talking about is the ``perceived`` misuse of this visa by the ``Indian`` (not just ``Hindu``.. I think i have to mention that ``Wipro systems``, one of the top 3 IT companies is 80% owned by ``Asim Premji``, a Muslim..) companies..

I have almost all my friends (irrespective of what they studied) working in the software industry.. and have a pretty good grasp of what`s happening there..

The H1B`s in the IT industry fall into 2 categories, first category - permanent employees of the american companies..and they get paid like any other american workers.. second category - contractors/consultants who come from other countries (mainly India). I think you are referring to folks from the second category as ``slaves`` / ``code coolies``.. The facts are those folks atleast get a mimimum of 3000$ per month if they work on-site (meaning in the US) and they are not permanent here.. So it`s effectively (3000 * 45) Rs.. They enjoy the best of both worlds.. and the ultimate dream of earning in dollars and spending in Rs..

That`s why I said it`ll be a big stretch to claim them as ``slaves`` or ppl who work in ``sweat shops``..

I don`t know of any ``racial bias`` of Indians towards ``blacks``.. so can`t comment on what you`re accusing of..

Generally I don`t want to get into religious fights.. Organised religion is bad for an individual and also for the society.. and I hate any ideology that would ask its followers to kill non-believers or ppl who question that ideology..

code coolies, termites and stand-up urinals ........

malik and urstruly are typical of the cave dwelling intellectuals who are behind the resurgence of this insidious idelology ......... one tries to detract attention by quoting the scriptures and the other goes off on a tangent about code coolies, who might be pitiful creatures but are a whole lot more useful to mankind than homicidal jihadis and termites .............

....... in any case, the way i look at it, this whole islamic thing has to be treated in exactly the same way as communism was during the last century ........... not only do we have to win the military battles in places like afghanistan, iraq and iran, but we also have to keep a wary eye on the terrorist cells that are springing up everywhere ........ there are potential terrorists lurking in many mosques, madrassas and code sweat shops all over the world ........... some good signs: the germans recent decision to impose a ban on imported imams and arabic sermons, the french insistence on doing away with the silly headjob in public schools, th british finally waking up to the evils of imported brides, the dutch realization that assimilation is necessary to prevent murder, and the recent the canadian decision to quarantine moslems in mississagua untill they learn to pee standing up ..........

#256 by stuka
“$20 an hour?”

Yes! I have known I