Caste and the City

soysauce #49
``Caste discrimination is really religious discrimination.``

Religious discrimination as you describe it is actually the one type of discrimination which caste discrimination does not encompass.

Caste discrimination encompasses social, political and economic discrimination, it includes discrimination in common or inter-caste worship(like bars on temple entry), it does not include religious discrimination. Unless you mean the state`s ban on animal/child sacrifice, no group however badly discriminated against otherwise, is prevented from worshipping their own deities, following their own religious customs, rituals and traditions.

#52 DM

heh heh.. i think dalits are smart, and are using all tools available in the political football. if HP arranged for non-madrassah convent style education using petro$, and 2 lb black-angus sirloin beef per week, you will see a lot of conversions to muslim (maybe saint might consider as well). i say go for conversion if you get the education-sirloin deal. beats dal-chawal prasad!

Yasirz

The only genetic/cultural superiority most North Indians recognize today is that of people in the South.

Dost mittar

While agreeing with you somewhat, I was implying that it is dalit’s right to choose whatever religion they like.
Obviously, you have a very limited knowledge about Sindh, Hari and Hari movement in Sindh. Hari is a Sindhi word for Kissan and their situation is not any different than any Kissan anywhere in the subcontinent. I would be glad to discuss that with you in an appropriate forum but their situation is nowhere near as bad as dalits situation in India is. Btw, some high-ranking ministers in Sindh are converts from just three and four of generations ago and come from hardworking and previously Hari families.

I know there is a huge debate in India about conversions. Especially Dalit and advasi conversions to Christianity and of course as per habit in India, Muslims are maligned in this issue too.
In one of my posts I mentioned that people posting here are implying that they know better than the dalits about what dalits need to do. The trace of that blatant racism and condescension is also evident from your post.
I never suggested that Dalit should convert to Islam. Personally, I don’t believe in any religion but unlike most Indian posters on this site, I abhor the idea that I need to disparage any religion to prove my point. It is evident from all accounts that most of dalit social, cultural and economic problems emanate from the dominant Hindu religion and if dalit reach a conclusion based on their personal or community consensus to change their religion, there should not be any impediments built to refrain them from making that decision.
Converting to Islam, Christianity, Sikh or Buddhism is a decision that Dalits need to make. Personally DM, We (you and me) are obviously not Dalit and are not even fully familiar with their plight as neither of us has personally encountered or had been subjected to generations of humiliation that dalit have faced in India.

KaalChakra,
More on this later….

Out of curiousity: Ive seen a lot of animosity/racism towards indians from south a.k.a Southies during my interactions with indians here in the us(Northerners offcourse)?Where the hell does that stem from?Does it pertain to a caste structure too or more towards supposed genetic/cultural superiority on the part of North Indians?
#50
`` point that terms like bhangi, choora, achhoot are seen and heard almost excusively in Pakistan``
Yes they`re our intellectual property.Please refrain from using them or face punitive action.

re: Soyasauce # 49

It was a liberating experience reading your post. For months I had been struggling to articulate an idea that you captured so simply - these `castes` are different `religions!` At least in the sense in which most non Indians thinks of religions. What dress one should wear, what festivals one should celebrate, what `god or God` one should worship, in which place and how, where one should go for pilgrimmage, and who one can marry or not - in the semitic sense THAT is religion! Our `castes` are indeed their `religions` then. No wonder Hinduism completely baffles most people used to thinking of religion in these traditional terms.

I wonder if you would be open to helping me clarify and firm up these ideas by exchanging a few emails. I would very much appreciate and be grateful for your time.


re: HP #50

Agreed with dost-mittar. That was a good post. However, as far as conversions into semitic religions are concerned, my conclusions are radically different.

As all people of Indic faiths have discovered, conversions of Indians into semitic religions are dramatic political events with deep even non-religious consequences for every one. Therefore, a very large number of issues have to be addressed upfront to inject individual-level and group-level honesty and security into this debate. Until then conversions into semitic religions must be entirely banned. We must do so quickly and in a way that minimizes the unavoidable damage to what Indic faiths have long recognized - a person`s right to leave his religion.

Soyasauce`s phenomenal insight actually eliminates the need for conversions. It also helps explain why so many people held on to their traditional `Hinduism` despite the dangers and disadvantages this decision brought to all Hindus for over a thousand years.

Luckily, when we take semitic religions completely off the table, we find that a person`s freedom to leave one`s religion is actually PRESERVED, not destroyed. India makes Buddhism and Sikhism - two of the greatest religions mankind has ever known - freely available to all humanity. Both these faiths reject the caste system as clearly as any semitic religion. Neither is beset with the enormous problems that accompany the non casteism of semitic religions. Both offer any reasonable and courageous person anywhere an opportunity to switch to a more rational religion.

However, we have shifted the focus from the natural, and otherwise rare to find, evolutionary tendencies within the Hindu society to the need for enforcing the freedom of religious conversion for people of all faiths. The latter is only one part of a much larger issue the Hindu society faces at this point in time.

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HP#50:

I really liked your post and applauded your interest in the dalits, till I reached towards the end, where it seemed like you are asking dalits to leave their religion to escape the hindu opression. I have many problems with that, and it is partly for the same reason that you ask them to leave; you are a muslim and I count myself as a hindu, in a cultural if not a religious sense.

But this is not the only reason. A dalit who leaves the hindu religion loses whatever protection the state gives him for his low status in the society, unless he converts to buddhism or sikhism, in which case the preferred treatment continues. Secondly, the status of a muslim mehtar in Bangladesh or a `bhangi` in Pakistan is no better, indeed things have improved in India to the point that terms like bhangi, choora, achhoot are seen and heard almost excusively in Pakistan. Could you honestly say that a haris in Sindh (many of whom are low caste hindus converted to islam) has a better chance than a dalit in India of escaping his bonds, let alone becoming a minister, chief minister or the president of your country (which is now happening all the time in India)? If not, these exhortation of dalits to leave their religion would be considered as nothing but an attempt to split and weaken the hindu society.

I have two views about the anti-conversion law. It goes against fundamental human rights and so I oppose it. I also oppose it because I consider potential conversion as the sword of domacles which should keep hanging above the hindu society so that it is forced to undertake the necessary reforms. I am, however, on practical grounds, opposed to conversion to islam though not to other religions. Why? Because the conversion to Islam has very serious and potentially dangerous political consequences. A few conversions in Assam and some districts of West Bengal and you may have a demand for another Pakistan. Remember, both Jinnah and Iqbal were hindus only a generation or two removed.

#50 by HP
Correction

“The reservation in govt jobs have helped approx 3.5 Dalit”

Should read “3.5 million Dalit.”

under pressure from the same people who ostensibly are dead set against the quotas

Shoud read “who ostensibly are ALSO dead set against the quotas”

I have this conjecture that since ``hinduism`` is an agglomeration of different religions/modes of worship, caste differences are by and large religious differences. (Dalits don`t have anything to do with brahmanism.) Caste discrimination is really religious discrimination. Everything else is just detail.

kaalchakra
The point was not whether people are strict or not but some people do practice religion and in India and Pakistan context a good majority practices religion. In dalits case, religion is important as the history of caste in India relates directly to Hindu religion.

It is reasonable to expect that some religious practices would disappear with the changing society but prohibiting Sati was not a change from within. It was enforced by law and it did not happen overnight. It is good that Hindus don’t practice it any more. India`s ancient caste system was abolished legally in the 1960s, it is still entrenched socially.
Islam allows four marriages but how many Muslims have four wives? (may be people with titles like jang do!). Similarly, Muslim Sharia says that people should wear their pants above their ankles but how many would like to look ridiculous? (except Dev Anand- he always wore them above his ankle.) The fact is that most of the population in religion dominated countries like India or Pakistan would prefer to follow what they recognize as religious edict or what they have learnt from their elders.

Now take the issue of quotas back again. I now tend to agree that the Indian business should be forced to accept quotas. The help to business can come in the form of tax exemptions. But the more compelling reason is that Dalits do contribute to business bottom-line. I read the number that Dalit spend is close to Rs. 300 billion (an estimate) on consumer purchases. Now this number is insignificant compared to Dalit population. 300 billion divided by 250 million Dalit and we get a paltry Rs.1200 per year per Dalit. If businesses get some 300 billion from Dalits, they do need to plow some portion of that money back in to the community it gets business from. The reservation in govt jobs have helped approx 3.5 Dalit that helps about 10-12% of the total Dalit population and if business picks up another 1 to 2 million jobs and reserves it for Dalit, it will be a significant move in changing socio-economic conditions of Dalits.

Of course, the economic benefit would help Dalit tremendously, but the real concern so far are the cultural barriers that have been put up by the upper classes.

India is a secular country as enshrined in its constitution. Like many other western democracies that are secular in nature, religion is an individual preference and state has no business in interfering in what one individual does with his or her religious beliefs. Countries like Pakistan that have no history of respecting and conforming to civil liberties or individual rights and would prefer to remain embroiled in religious sloganeering, attempt to stop people from practicing their beliefs then that is to be expected. However, if a country that has a proud tradition of being secular and presumably forbids the government machinery to interpret laws based on religion, seriously considers altering the fundamental human right to practice or switch to whatever faith people would like to practice then that clearly bags the question: whether that country still has some commitment to secularism?
I hope I am wrong here but presumably some states or the Indian union itself is seriously considering outlawing conversion. How does that jive with secularism? This issue is directly related with Dalit and if the state, under pressure from the same people who ostensibly are dead set against the quotas, changes law that take away the most fundamental right of the people, than the state’s integrity becomes questionable.
Dalit have a right to choose whatever religion they prefer. It is a choice based on the realities they face in every day life in India.

Providence in the fall of a sparrow, There’s a special -Shakespeare

dost-mittar #40 I agree with you in spirit.
So basically we have 3 options among which some or all could be followed-
a) Reservations
b)Affirmative Action sans reservation
c)Fostering of entrepreneurship

a) and b) are like a drop in the ocean and would not benefit the really poor people. Besides,the perception of division in society would only increase. This would be a big obstacle in going towards a casteless society.Besides, b) is very difficult to implement.
In my opinion, the most important thing that can be done for poverty alleviation is c), through radical education reforms and rural loan schemes.

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HP

we indoos dont condone casteism, we practice it at various levels, and have taught it to mooslims and xtians as well (they seemed to like it even if koran/bible is against it). now, if we were to forcast ``are dalits doomed``? i dont think so. will they be ``dominant`` in the sense that a dalit identity will be considered to be inherently good or something to be proud of? no. all indoos are trying to become brahmin (in education), warrior when fighting pakis, bania when dealing in global economy and artists (like the tradesmen). in the meanwhile, we do indulge in casteism and affirmative action.

Shivam:

Your article shows the entrenched nature of caste in the Hindu society in general and India in particular. While anyone with money can buy any property anywhere, and no seller will refuse a buyer who is willing to pay the highest price, it is true that even a poor upper caste hindu would rather go and buy a jhuggi in a slum than a better accomodation in a colony/mohalla which carries the stigma of being scheduled caste. And as you suggest, an ``uppity`` scheduled caste boy in a public school will still be harassed and teased.

But your article also shows some glimmer of hope. The fact that young upper caste boys did not know their own castes is revealing. The boys, when they got older, stopped their teasing. And neighbours, after initially shunning their `mochi` neighbour, eventually came round and accepted him as part of the community.

In an evolutionary society, especially one as tradition bound as India, change comes at a slow pace, unlike China where it came through a revolution. The state can act as a catalyst in this process. This is where importance of education comes into play. The state must improve resources to the govt. funded schools, even levy a fee on public schools, if necessary to improve the level of education in the public sector.

Affirmative action (NOT QUOTAS) in the private sector will be a positive step in this direction. This means the corporate sector assuming greater social responsibility and taking proactive measures to hire qualified and competent lower caste candidates in responsible positions in their companies to compensate for their lack of access to the social network available to upper caste candidates.

As you said it is irrelevant whether or not the caste system is sanctioned by vedas or any other scripture. It is also irrelevant whether or not it served a useful purpose in the past. The fact is that this practice is an anethema to the contemporary concepts of ethics and human rights.

The strength of the hindu society lies in its lack of rigidity and the ability to change, albeit slowly, with the needs of the times. Sati was sanctioned by religion and it is gone; widow remarriage was banned by religion and it is gone; dalits were not supposed to caste their shadows on upper castes and now dalit chief ministers and ministers are ordering upper castes to prostrate before them, and they do. So, will the caste system will also get diluted, slowly but surely.

And Hindus have every reason to be grateful in not being chained to a book which can neither be modified nor ignored.

> The four tiers of castes have been approved by the religion and people believe that to be the right thing to do hence there is a continuation of the caste system in India. If caste system was not approved by the religion itself, then how it still dominate the every day life in India?

This is a bogus argument. Caste system dominates Muslim society in the Indian subcontinent as well. Does Islam sanction it?