Caste and the City

re: HP # 40

``Hindus do not follow religion strictly`` is a completely wrong way of thinking about Hindus and their religion. I don`t follow a number of religious practices dear to my parents but I am a strict Hindu.

Hindus can be good and true followers of their religion without ever reading Rigveda. They don`t have to go to any one kind of temple or any temple at all. Only a few verses are popular enough to be recited regularly by large numbers of Hindus. Those verses say nothing about caste.

Things you are focusing on are not `religion,` according to Hinduism. These are merely traditions, rituals, and practices that, Hinduism tells us, are always subject to the inescapable laws of Time. Caste-based system has indeed been a part of general Hindu life. But most Hindus recognize that Time has passed its verdict against this discriminatory sytem. Few Hindus see it as central to their religion anymore. Hindus can do so because Hinduism is an amazingly dynamic and intrisically strong religious and philosophical system.

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reservations in jobs and higher education will amount to zilch if dalits and other oppressed castes do not receive a solid primary and high school education. A dalit high school graduate who has poor grades will perform poorly in college and thereafter in the workplace. Net result being no real progress for the Dalits and loss in the form of inefficiency to the country. Govt. schools are free or nearly free to everyone. However the standards at these schools is so poor that they might as well not exist at all. Most Govt. run schools have absentee teachers who still continue to draw salaries. There should be large scale reform in Govt. sponsored primary and high school education. I think private schools too should be made to allocate a percentage of seats to people from the backward and scheduled castes. If all citizens are given a level playing field in the form of primary and high school education, then the best and the brightest irrespective of caste can take advantage of the premier educational institutions in the country, thus not only benefiting themselves and their families, but also increasing the productivity of the country.

There is clear theme emerging out of these posts here that:
1. Dalits are not being discriminated in India.
2. They should be denied quotas.
3. Any talk of favors to dalit amounts to anti-Indian nation.

How does this stack up against the reality on ground?

An argument has been made that since Pakistan army killed Bengalis, Indians have a right to do the same to dalits. This is strange. First, Dalit have been treated inhumanly for centuries and it is still going on, how does it relate to one-time incident that happened in any one country. Why Indians need inspiration from outside of their country to perpetuate an issue that is between Indians and India specific?
Another argument has been made that Indians do not follow religion strictly. That can’t fly very far really. There are people who go to mandirs regularly, people read religious books and recite verses regularly and a good number follows the religion pretty much in everyday life. What makes any body think that they don’t believe what their books clearly state and propagate as quoted on several dalit sites? The four tiers of castes have been approved by the religion and people believe that to be the right thing to do hence there is a continuation of the caste system in India. If caste system was not approved by the religion itself, then how it still dominate the every day life in India?
People may live in denial but the fact of the matter is that caste system gets its sanctions and approvals from the Hindu religion itself and since one religion dominates the Indian society, the caste system continues to flourish.

There was a time when White supremacist in the US claimed and some still do that blacks are not intellectually capable to manage affairs hence there is a need control them. In South Africa the same argument was used to perpetuate apartheid. The British colonist implied that their Indian subjects are not ready for self rule and are intellectually inferior.

When some posters here claim that:
1. Lower castes or Dalits have messed up in TN and Upper castes are leaving that states.
2. Some claim that Bihar and UP are in decline because Dalits have control over those two states.
Basically what is implied here that lower castes are not capable of managing affairs and they are screwing up everywhere. Therefore, the upper castes need to maintain control. This argument is at par with whites racists in the US/South Africa and India itself where British used similar arguments to deny people their basic rights.

This is blatant racism.

Apparently, Indians condone racism when it comes to Dalits. In fact, the trend of arguments suggests that the posters are basically racist themselves.
It is evident from all posters that they oppose quotas vehemently. Now quotas technically and socially have very small impact on general population. A population must first have means to acquire education and as the number suggests approx. 70% of Dalits don’t even have access to financial means to even think about providing education to at least one kid in the family, the quota becomes a really minor effort in alleviating social and economic backwardness of Dalits.

If the upper castes are not willing to concede on just a small issue of quota, how Dalits can expect economic and social parity with the rest of the population in India, which would require tremendous effort, and that massive effort is not even planned.
In any event, Dalits are doomed to continue in the same situation that they are in now for the next umpteenth of years.

More to come….

Re one of Amit`s earlier posts, the comparison of the caste system with Latin American countries is kind of apt. Take Mexico for example. Before the Spanish conquistadores arrived, there were populous native nations, like the Aztecs and Maya, with a well established culture of their own. The Spanish took over in spite of much fewer numbers, due to their technological superiority. So now you have a light-skinned ruling elite, mainly descendants of landed gentry and concentrated in urban areas. But most Mexican don`t look very spanish - most look Native American, or of mixed blood. I suppose the reason for this is Spanish genes made a fairly small contribution to the mexican gene pool. Culturally, however, the country and its people are predominantly european - untill one goes out of the cities and into the remoter areas. The more romote the place, the more likely are the people to look Native American, to practise a Catholicism mixed with earlier beliefs, and in some cases speak their own languages - at which point it becomes hard to distinguish them from the surviving pockets of ``pure`` native people.

In India too, there is a light-skinned, numerically small elite, concentrated mostly in the more ``mainstream`` areas. In the countryside, people start looking different, many have their own dialects, entire villages or districts inhabited by a certain ``caste`` appear, which may speak its own language and practise a religion they call Hinduism but with deities unknown anywhere else, and finally blend smoothly into neigbouring ``adivasi` tribes.

In Mexico, too, in its early days, there were attempts to foist a ``caste`` system on the people - on top were the Castilian nobility (most clergy belonged to this group as well), other Spaniards, then people of mixed blood (Mestizos) and finally ``Indios``.

I would think this is bound to happen when a small but powerful invader takes over a populous land, able to impose their culture, but not prevent the natives from interpreting it thir way, and desperate to keep their identity in the midst of the conqured masses. its also more plausible than the classic theories of aryan invaders arriving en masse, driving the native Dravidians south, and becoming the ancestors of most north indians.

I`m in no way trying to defend the caste system - its indefensible - merely trying to explore the origins of it.

shivamvij, nb, and HP

Many Pakistanis are Hindus too. Many other Pakistanis are the children of `Hindu civilization.` Each has a right to make a contribution as we use our newly-found freedom to rediscover, refine, and constantly reformulate ourselves.

The problem of caste is still pervasive among us. Despite the progress, many of our people still suffer from its extreme and intolerable forms. Besides, we belong to a civilization too dynamic to turn a blind eye to our collective issues: How can we speed up progress and reform? How can we make this process more just and its effects more widespread? What should be our collective (formal) stands? How should we proceed so as to bring bring more of our people on board?

Whether other civilizations are just or not matters little in this debate except in our following the wisdom of our sages -

``Let good thoughts come to us from everyside.``

Best regards.

saint #32, mumbaikar #35, HP

``HP...its none of your business .Get lost. Doesn`t matter what Rig Veda or any hindu scripture said or didn`t say - Hindus are not obliged to obey their ancient religious books unlike muslims who are expected to lead their lives according to some 1500 year old manual..``

Again, irrespective of what others are required to do or not do, Hinduism is not Rigveda. it is the constantly changing, dynamic, multidimensional, and sometimes contradictory wisdom of our people. Rigveda lit a lamp when much of the earth was still covered in darkness, but today it is not the only source of our light.

HP, if Rig veda really said the following then I disown it.

“Black skin is impious & lowly`` Sanskrit : < ``dA`saM va`rNaM a`dharaM gu`hA`kaH`` > “
Rig Veda II.12.4
“Indra protected in battle the Aryan worshipper, he subdued the lawless for Manu, he conquered the black skin.``
[ Rig Veda I.130.8 ]

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After reading this article I was prompted to post this well written aricle

Crutches for the able-bodied

As the new dispensation at the centre settles in government, they have announced a plethora of policy changes – from detoxification of education, disbandment of divestment ministry to levying of cess on tax-payers. The initial euphoria and the desire to do something are natural. After all, this is the time to convert election promises to policy decisions. However, in the photogenic spectacle of dashing MPs obliging the paparazzi by posing in their newly bought ‘ethnic’ dresses, an important event did not get the due attention. This was the release of Common Minimum Program document by United Progressive Alliance. The document is intended to serve as a policy guideline for the incumbent government –the esoteric ‘what to do’. The exulting ministers have been left to grapple with the ‘nominal’ exoteric issue of ‘how to do’. The CMP promises the moon to every child who cares to ask for it, but it promises something more – “legislation for one-third reservation for women in Vidhan Sabhas and in the Lok Sabha” and “issue of affirmative action, including reservations in the private sector”. The only word common in the two sentences is reservation, a word that will have strong influence on the direction we are likely to move in as a nation.

The word reservation and its politically correct euphemism “affirmative action” have been a part of our lexicon since Independence. The constituent Assembly spent considerable time over the broader issue of empowerment of SC/STs, and felt that quotas should be reserved in the legislature, education and public sector. The idea was to tackle the issue of discrimination against these classes, crassly labelled as ‘Shudras’ and ‘ati-shudras’ in ‘Chaturvarna’ system. The leading lights of Indian freedom struggle spent considerable time to improve the condition of these communities. Ambedkar and Gandhi differed about the methodology of this change, but concurred that a change, nevertheless, is required.

The inhuman exploitation of so-called ‘untouchables’ itself was an Indian avatar of slavery, an abominable practice that was rampant throughout the world. From time to time, Indian leaders pondered over the issue and tried to devise means to end this isolation. Post-independence, reservation was considered prudent as it would guarantee greater interaction of marginalized sections with the rest of the society. This was also done to tackle the ‘religious’ angle of the problem- the presence of these sections was considered ‘polluting’. Even meritorious people from these sections were forced to the margins of society, as Ambedkar realized much to his chagrin. The “affirmative action” was not an end in itself, but was supposed to be coupled with efforts to improve the general condition of the under-privileged.

Like all other noble ideas, reservation was dirtied in the rough and tumble of politics. The government failed to deliver on the promise of upliftment of these sections, and the reservation created a creamy layer. After the mud settled on the initial tumultuous years of Indian democracy, an entrenched lobby prevailed on the government to continue with this policy. The fruits of this policy were increasingly getting limited to ‘privileged’ weaker sections; what chance does the son of a farm labourer have against a Commissioner’s son?

The tool was also used by successive governments to cover their failures in bringing social justice to the poorest of poor. Any criticism of reservation policy was labelled as ‘anti-dalit’ and deemed a politically incorrect proposition. The political parties also washed their hands off the need to improve social conditions by pointing to reservation. Needless to say, this atmosphere stifled rather than encourage education and empowerment of dalits. The atrocities continued, the creamy layers attained enviable levels of prosperity and refused to let go the crutches of reservation. This lop-sided development has continued to this day. Whereas a huge majority of dalits remain poor and ostracized, a celebrated minority monopolizes all benefits given in the name of social justice.

Meanwhile, the tool of reservation has become a panacea for all political parties to deflect attention from their governance failures. Any form of dissent or disenchantment is bribed with promise of reservation. So, now we have reservations for backward castes, economically weaker sections of higher castes, and women; the reservation for Muslims and Christians may follow suit. It is distressing to note that if left unchecked, this trend of reserving seats would lead to a 100% reservation based on composition of society. That this invariably feels to solve the problem is conveniently overlooked. So, the creamy layers have hijacked reservations, strong people use their wives as proxies for panchayat elections, and the monster of casteism is stronger than ever before.

The proponents of reservation theory point to the innate disadvantage that sections who are offered this sop suffer from. So, dalits exploited for centuries can’t be expected to compete with the ‘savarna’ classes in the cut-throat world, the murky world of politics deters women from participating in the political process, and the economically weaker sections don’t have the means to educate their children; the rambling goes on and on. Time and effort is not spent on finding the root cause of these problems and fixing them. So, criminalization of politics continues unabated, poor are not given opportunities to improve their lot, and violence against backward sections is still in vogue.

The theory of ‘in-born handicaps’ is ridiculous and contrary to all the evidence from real life. Given the right circumstances, there is no reason why a group or community can not perform as well as some other. Shiv Nader, a billionaire Information Technology czar is a ‘dalit’ and so is the tennis icon Vijay Amritraj. Premjis and Pallonjis are ‘minorities’ and so is our president and prime-minister. India is one of the few countries in the world to have been led by a woman, Mrs. Gandhi. Even today, women are leading four important states and another was about to be a prime-minister before she turned down the offer. It would be a mockery of common-sense to run down the successes of these people from ‘weaker’ sections as exceptions. The fact is, given the right environment, every individual irrespective of their caste, creed, religion or sex can achieve the very best in life.

It is highly demeaning to label a whole group of people as unworthy of achieving things on their own. The fair environment can be developed only by investing more in education, cutting the leakages due to corruption and enforcing law and order to end systematic exploitation. Rather than indulging in meaningless gimmicks and propounding retrogressive policy measures, the government should concentrate on fending off evils like nepotism, discrimination, criminalization, lack of education opportunities and corruption. Only then we can realize the dream of a just and egalitarian society with ample opportunities for those who care to grab.

Till then, doors will keep closing on the meritorious; and the able-bodied will continue to be offered crutches.

by Rahul Malviya a Chowk Member

harimau #22:
``How many jet fighters at $50 - $100 million a copy crash in a month because of poor maintenance by your caste-based employees with no sense of responsibility? Won`t it be better to recruit these OBCs, tell them to stay at home and collect their salaries while qualified and committed personnel are recruited for the real job so that some 30 planes a year and the lives of about an equal number of planes can be saved?``
Whoa! Are you saying that all military plane crashes are due to poor maintenance by `OBC employees`? And does the poor maintenance have anything to do with their caste?
Can you back your statement with data?

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Imran #17,

Hinduism does not recognize any set of people as more equal than others. You seem to be harping on one thing over and over again.

Muslims in the subcontinent are as casteist as Hindus. So, get over tom tomming Islam here.

Shivam Vij,
I read the article in Countercurrent also!
The problem is not education or the quota but the social status of dalit.

“Scheduled Castes” and “Scheduled Tribes”, got together and built a building called Gaurav Apartments in the east Delhi locality of Patparganj. About two-third flats in Gaurav Apartments are occupied by Dalits and ‘tribals’. The remaining flats remain vacant as upper caste (UC) individuals are forewarned about this by (UC) property dealers.”

That’s where the problem lies. It is the discrimination! it is the treatment of Dalit as second class citizens in their own country and this treatment is ostensibly approved by the religion as well as the society.
The question is whether quotas alone can alleviate the problems that dalit face in India.
Here are just a few quotes that anybody can get with google.

“Days ahead of Bill Clinton`s visit to Agra, a Dalit woman was stripped and beaten to death by two men in broad daylight even as villagers stood by helplessly and watched the gory spectacle to its tragic end. Twenty-three-year-old Sukhviri Devi of Nagla village in Agra district made the mistake of crossing the path of Virendra Pal and Vijay Pal, carrying an empty matka. The price she paid for it was death.”

“In a series of bloody and cruel displays of ferocious Hindu fundamentalism, fanatic Brahmin terrorists killed at least 61 innocent civilians on December 2, 1997. More than 100 heavily armed Brahmin terrorists, belonging to the Hindutva militia group known as the Ranvir Sena, secretly entered two Dalit villages in Jehanabad district and embarked upon a savage display of Hindu fanaticism.”
`` Like other senas before it, the Ranvir Sena enjoys considerable political patronage. The sena is said to be dominated by politicians from various parties, including Congress, the Janata Dal, and the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP).``
Human Rights Watch, World Report 1999.

“At least 11 labourers were killed when hired goons of a sand contractor fired at them late on Thursday night, at village Hasanpura Balughat in Lakhisarai district, 100 km south-east of the State capital.
The victims belonged mainly to the Dalit and backward castes and were engaged in sand mining work on behalf of a contractor. Even after 20 hours of the incident, police have not made any breakthrough in either identifying the architect of the massacre. “

“Black skin is impious & lowly`` Sanskrit : < ``dA`saM va`rNaM a`dharaM gu`hA`kaH`` > “
Rig Veda II.12.4
“Indra protected in battle the Aryan worshipper, he subdued the lawless for Manu, he conquered the black skin.``
[ Rig Veda I.130.8 ]



More on this later….

kaalchakra #18
``Real power has reached into the hands of the`lower caste` Hindus after centuries. It will take many of them some time before they transcend the apparently exclusive concerns of their castes. ``

Agreed. In UP/Bihar, one would be happy enough if `lower caste` leaders use their power to be genuinely constructive towards people of their own communities.

For instance in UP, one wonders if the SP-BSP years have resulted in improvement in Dalit literacy esp of Dalit women? Improvement in maternal and infant mortality? Improvement in responsiveness of police/justice system to abuses by `upper castes`? Improvement in Dalit access to water and land resources? Greater number of Dalits elected to local bodies? Better employment figures? Any quantifiable gains apart from holding power ? ( the sort of questions which governments elsewhere in India also need to face).

Caste-based politics ultimately needs do more than mobilizing protest against others, it needs mobilize the community to set positive goals and standards for itself. Case in point Tamil Nadu - after 35 years of `lower castes` being in power, 75-80% reservation in jobs and education for `lower castes`, wholesale migration of `forward castes` out of the state, politics is still about `discrimination by brahmins`.

And this solely ``gimme`` variety ``egalitarianism`` also encourages the `lower castes` to practice exclusion of Dalits. How much more time will it take in Tamil Nadu for caste concerns to be transcended - it is currently running at 35+ years and counting.

It is said that a man with a hammer sees every problem as a nail. We in India have quotas/reservation as the tool and so the solution to lack of decades of economic growth under the Commie system of Bandit Nehru/VK Krishna Menon/Indira Gandhi was to allocate the economic pie according to some caste or religious basis.

It is well-known that the Nizams ruled the Hyderabad state as their personal fiefdom with all positiions in the state going only to Muslims. Despite that, these Koran-waving, four-wives-marrying, Hajj-subsidy-demanding, talaq-talaq-talaq-divorcing good-for-nothings did absolutely zilch about upgrading their skills through modern education. Now the state of Andhra is reserving 7% of all land to be allocated to farmers (this is government land to be given away absolutely free!) for Muslims. Why is there no reservations FOR brahmins who exploited the Dalits with less ruthless means? What should the brahmins have done: kill the Dalits, carry away their wives and children as slaves and war booty, etc., as the Islamic thugs did?