Caste and the City

The situation of dalits is partially related to their socio-economic status - landless workers, sweepers, unskilled workers. They do not make much money. In that sense their situation is no different from underclasses in most societies.

The situation of dalits in India varies from state to state. In urban India all Indians eat out of the same plate. Most of the hotel workers in Chennai and Bangalore are dalits or other lower castes. Most upper caste youths are working as software engineers. I do not think anybody eating in those hotels really cares.

Hindu society can be classified into three groups - upper castes, backward castes and SC/ST. Upper castes are 25%. Backward Castes are 40%. SC/ST are 20%. Minorities are 15%. If democracy is driven to its logical conclusion the backward castes will gain power. They have in Tamilnadu since 1967. They have taken power in UP and Bihar finally. To some degree in the short to intermediate term I forsee a bigger fight between backward castes and SC/ST.

To the degree upper castes quit farming and move into white collar professions. They will come into lesser conflict with SC/ST. It has happened in many parts of urban India where upper caste yuppies need SC people to be babysitters, do their laundry, wash their clothes, drive their cars etc.

There is a problem of attitudes with certain upper caste Hindus. I think UP, Bihar have pretty regressive elites which has led to the rise of Kanchi Rams. Passage of time will soften those attitudes.

As time goes on I expect Dalit leaders to forge alliances with other communities to improve their lot.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

It looks like India is getting more caste aware than it was when I was a student. In all my years of schooling there was only one person who asked me ``what caste you are from?``. As far as Yadavs go,all the Yadavs I knew were fairly well off. In fact I was quite surprised when I learnt that they were a ``backward caste``. I have studied in UP too but then my school in Nainital was never castist like the one you described in Lucknow. In one of the schools where I studied the home food was bought at lunch-time by a Harijan/Dalit who used to force feed me at times. Neither my Brahmin parents nor me had any issue with this.
Now after saying all this I cannot deny that yes there is a caste problem. In college I met students who did not like mixing with the tribal or dalit students. And in certain states caste is still a major issue. But my experience in the bigger cities has been that people really have no time for caste. You use the crowded public transport then you can`t be choosy with whom you travel. Business deals need to be done, money is to be made then nobody asks caste affilations. Housing? In most of these colonies nowadays you don`t really know who your neighbour is nor do you have the time. A landlord in Delhi is more likely to discriminate against a Punjabi as compared to a Malayali.
In some respect I agree with Saint & Harimau here, reservation in educational institutes needs to have an economic criteria attached too, otherwise like it or not the system is being exploited. The ``creamy layer`` seems to be garnering the benefits.
Admiration for Mayawati? That woman has her own interests in mind and the amount of money she has been making...
That said with the political power slowly shifting to the Dalits, within the next decade or so expect to see the first Dalit Prime Minister of India.

shivam, I can only say caste exclusivism and discrimination in cities,though undesirable,is certainly not unexplainable.It is the direct fallout of affirmative action.One cant expect those who are shortchanged to just grin and bear it. With the proposed reservations in the private sector, the chasms are going to be wider, and there are other hidden costs as well.
There are other ways to bring about a more egalitarian society.

So, Shivam, now that you`ve succeeded in telling HP and his cohorts how superior they are because a lot of Pakistanis on chowk are racist, not casteist, what do you think the point was?

[So how do you solve the problem of Dalits? Indian industry, despite its pretensions of corporate social responsibility, is unlikely to take initiative. Unlike American corporations that believe in “diversity”, hire and train individuals from minority communities (including immigrants from India), Indian industry is unlikely to volunteer. The government must step in, as it intends to do very soon.]

Hello, what world do you live in?

American corporations don`t believe in diversity; they believe in excellence. If a black man could do a better job than a redneck, they would hire the black man. That might not have been the case 40 years back but it is the case now. They are not hiring Indian immigrants because they are brahmins or chamars or because they need to be represented. They hire Indians so that they can squeeze more work out of them than they are able to out of American workers, at least until the immigrants get their green cards.

So, the Indian government must step in, eh? Not being content with the fcuk-ups that we see all over India, you want more fcuk-ups thisa time in the private industry. Who are you or the Indian government to tell a man who is investing his money whom he should hire? Exactly what has been the record of all those government institutions with mandated representation for SC/ST/MBC/OBCs? How many hundreds of billions of rupees have been lost by the government`s companies in the manufavturing and banking sectors over the last 50 years? How many jet fighters at $50 - $100 million a copy crash in a month because of poor maintenance by your caste-based employees with no sense of responsibility? Won`t it be better to recruit these OBCs, tell them to stay at home and collect their salaries while qualified and committed personnel are recruited for the real job so that some 30 planes a year and the lives of about an equal number of planes can be saved?

[In both cases, the entry of ‘low’ caste individuals and their families into the (UC) “mainstream” took place because of reservations in government jobs. Before this could adequately happen across India, the Indian state decided that jobs and resources were to be transferred to the private sector.]

Exactly what is meant by ``the Indian state decided that jobs and resources were to be transferred to the private sector``? Any private sector companies exist because individuals invested their hard-earned money and their time in building up a company. If operating a private company for profit is not a right, you are talking the Communist Russian and Chinese models. This discredited economic model has been abandoned in all the formerly Communist countries but people like you cannot get over your fascination with some frikking a$$hole of a bureaucrat telling you what you and cannot do with your life. What next, a government bureaucrat telling you on what days you can sleep with your wife? How would you like that? How about if a government bureaucrat tells you that you need to have your wife impregnated by someone from another caste/linguistic or ethnic region in the interests of homogeneization of the population and elimination of distinction? How would you like that?

Your prescription is that government knows best. The last 50 years is proof that it only knows how to keep itself in absolute power over the citizens of the state.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re:HP#15 and Imran

There are all kinds of laws on the books in India against casteism and caste based discrimination is completely outlawed. From political leaders like Gandhi to religious leaders, everyone speaks out against caste. Some regions like West Bengal have managed to dilute caste issues completely while other areas like UP and Bihar are still struggling with it. In spite of all the progress, there is still residual casteist feelings, particularly in small towns and villages. My point is that discrimination based on skin color, race and caste is so embedded in our psyches that even people like Gandhi cannot eliminate it. Even religions like Islam and Sikhism with all their egalitarian teachings cannot eliminate casteism among its desi followers, what to speak of hinduism.

One thing that is making a lot of impact is the voting power of the dalits. The rise of the Mulayam Singh Yadavs and Laloo Prasad Yadavs of the world shows that the dalits are flexing their demographic muscle. They are now occupying political positions of power and hence are controlling the levers of power. So in one sense, democracy is managing to overturn the centuries old fair skinned minority domination. But it is still an uphill task. All I will say to you Pakistanis is before you point fingers at us hindus, would you be more egalitarian towards your dalits? Pakistanis were not exactly very friendly to the Bengalis whom they considered racially inferior.

Question to all those who comments about discrimination in Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism and Christianity my question is

Does any of those religions propagate religious classes or divide followers on the bases of cast or occupation?
Is there few are more equal to Almighty on the basis of there last name?
Is any of those religions stopping there followers in mingling with each other because of there cast/last name/occupation?

The only religion which preaches all those things is Hinduism, which was apparently the dominant religion of the united India. For the rest of religious minorities it is unavoidable not to be influenced in your personal life from the majority rituals in a homogeneous society. The discrimination you guys are talking about in other religions at individual level is basically driven from there not by the very own roots of those religions. One can quote hundred of thousands examples about religious equality at personal level in Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism and Christianity.

Sadna

Real power has reached into the hands of the`lower caste` Hindus after centuries. It will take many of them some time before they transcend the apparently exclusive concerns of their castes.


Shivam Vij

You wrote an article full of great hope for our people. The changes you described are indeed afoot. Neither Gandhi nor Ambedkar lost. Both won very very impressive social, political, and legal battles. By writing this article, you have followed their honored, reformist traditions. Praise is due to you, my friend.

Amit,
I am kind of surprised at your comments. It appears to me that you are attempting to trivialize the issue. It is not you alone but every Indian that has posted on this board, has attempted to point fingers at other countries and nation to justify what’s happening to dalits in India. The article specifically talks about treatment to Indians in India and here we have people trying to equate that with issues in Pakistan and South America.
Most of the posters on this site live in the US and it is only the second largest democracy in the world behind India. What they do with democracy and freedom of speech in the US is evident to all. Every issue no matter how uncomfortable it is is comprehensively discussed and people discuss it to death. Now India is not exactly at par with the US in any way but it is an established democracy and freedom of speech is a birthright for every citizen. That means that Indians have the ability to discuss any issue that matters to their country in detail in any forum. But what they chose to do? Ignore it, hide behind smoke screens, point fingers at other, and not even acknowledge the issue at all. How much attention this issue gets in Indian newspapers compared to the Indian Muslims or the rights of Kashmiri Pundits? Not much!

Yes! You can claim that I am from Pakistan and I may not understand the problem but when 250 million human beings are involved that issue does not belong to India alone. 250 million is more than Pakistan’s population; it is almost a country right behind the US in population alone.
Dalit claim that Dalit are the original Indian, but do they even get the treatment those aborigines in Australia and the American Indian in the US get? No! The situation is far too worst in India.
Religion may have provided all the taboos and social prejudices. It may have propagated and supported the caste system but a religion is as good and as bad as people following it. Am I to assume that Indians in the current India, in this 21st century believe that caste system is irreversible? Or is it a system they are not willing to change or do any thing about it?
In theory and by constitution India is not even a religious country so invoking religion to avoid an issue is like being an ostrich.
I am not saying that what I have read does not show that India has not made any progress in the caste and Dalit issues. They have! This article clearly displays that there are a percentage of people that have been helped with some programs but what is that percentage? I doubt that it is even one percent of the size of the problem.

This article also shows that despite gaining some social benefits, dalits are still looked down upon and ridiculed in public institutions. Is there any law against this kind of humiliation in India?
Are they really considered goonda and badmaash like this article points out?

Once a number of years ago, while visiting Lucknow, I got to know about a scientific/technological infrastructure institution(don`t want to be more specific) which had fallen upon bad days because no initiative was being taken by its head to upgrade /manage it better. The reason was that Ms Mayawati who was CM at the time would allow only a Dalit to head the institution. And the person thus appointed had no other interest in the institution except to preside as its head.

As your description indicates, there is good reason why BSP/ UP Dalit rhetoric is the way it is. (Searching around for exact wording) Kanshi Ram`s/BSP`s philosophy is ```Political power is the master key to all other doors`` . I just wish having attained power, Dalits and Yadavs would now move one step forward from simply enjoying that power and become genuinely constructive wrt their own constituency and wrt UP. That will greatly accelerate the process of joota maaro`ing the tilak, tarazu and talwar.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Why? Just so that I knew what generation I was dealing with, but I realised that when your classmate`s parents were from the post-Mandal era, you`re fairly young. That`s all.
I would also like to say that as an MP person, I have watched UP degenerate before my eyes, so perhaps you did see more casteism than I did. Friends who lived in the hostel didn`t care who they shared with, and before you ask, I did have huge birthday parties with much of my class, including, now that I think of it, all castes there.

Chowk is my favourite South Asian website and it`s great to see people react to my article. While it is impossible to reply all of them, I want to comment on this debate linking Hinduism with caste. The link is no doubt undeniable, but that was not thepoint of my article. My article is not but history but the present; not about rural areas but The City, where we think we DON`T discriminate on caste lines. Caste discrimination in urban India is so hidden and subtle that it`s worse than caste violence in villages, where you expect it.

Fighting over caste vis-a-vis religion is pointless. Those who think casteism affects only Hinduism should do some more Googling on the subject. Despite conversion many generations ago, caste discrimination continues in an institutionalised form in all religions in India and the rest of South Asia.

And #6, `nb`, why do you want to know my age. I feel at least as old as the history that I learnt in those stupid NCERT books. You could say I was born in 1857.