Caste and the City

soysauce
Um, your calling people `casteist` for talking about specifics in Tamil Nadu and your assuming that anyone who questions the party line is an opponent of OBC quotas, appear to be ideological compulsions with you.

If your compulsions are really not ideological, then better re-examine them, because look who else is talking about these specifics.

For example:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1719/17191150.htm

``G. Ramakrishnan, member, State secretariat of the Communist Party of India (Marxist), who has served on the committee appointed by the Tamil Nadu government to study the implementation of the Panchayat Act, said that the main purpose of the 73rd and 74th amendments to the Constitution was, besides devolving power to the three-tier local bodies, to empower women and Dalits by providing 33 per cent of elected posts to the former and proportional representation to the latter. But, he said, it was only in v illages where the democratic movement was strong and a consciousness about the rights of the under-privileged people existed, that the elected representatives were effective. In places where caste-related clashes had taken place or where caste feelings w ere dominant among the people, elected Dalit representatives, both men and women, were not able to assert themselves and function effectively.

R. Thirumavalavan, convener, Dalit Panthers of India (``Viduthalai Siruthaigal`` in Tamil), who has taken up the cause of Melavalavu village and has been instrumental in raising the memorial for the slain Dalits, told Frontline that the ruling Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK) was in the forefront in running down elected Dalit functionaries. ``


And when Dalits boycott elections in protest look who gets angry - the ruling party in 1998- wasn`t that DMK?:

``When the people of Gundupatti in Dindigul district tried this in the 1998 parliamentary elections, the administration and the ruling party did not take kindly to it and reacted ruthlessly (Frontline, April 17, 1998).``


(In May 2004, the violent reaction to the Dalit boycott of Lok Sabha elections came from local BJP workers. If I too used your insinuation mode of argument, I could accuse you of being a closet-Hindutva-vadi. Soooo useful that would be )
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2113/stories/20040702002104400.htm

#137 Jang, let`s see: why are you a casteist SOB - rhetoric, pontification
Why do you hate hindus & brahmins - curiosity. Anything else I missed? Why don`t you point to the standard generic labeling? Now I`m curious.
Have you ever tried to get the dirt on why harimau hates pretty much everyone else? Wouldn`t that be a more interesting curiosity question?
If you`re still curious, I hate hindus & brahmins because I can`t stand any group of which I`m a de factomember. Happy?

soy
ok so i get it, you want to stick to rhetoric, and generally pontificate .. sorry to bother you.

that i am a casteist is not very important.

the reason i asked you why you hate brahmins and hindus is becuase you made some rhetorical remarks, which divulged little substance. it all sounded like standard generic labeling. i wanted to understand if there is something more interesting, something born out of personal experience, something anecdotal. so i asked, because that is the beauty of interactice forum like this.

AND casteism IS rampant in india.

#134 Jang,
The point is that YOU are a casteist, don`t go blaming it on rampant casteism in India. Look at how you stereotyped me not based on anything I wrote - how you could conclude that I hate brahmins or hindus - but because I support the quota sytem. It is irrelevant who you thought I was. What is relevant is that you thought I must subscribe to a groupthink because you imagined I belonged to a certain group. THAT, dear sir, is what makes you a casteist. Whether you`re bothered by this fact or not is your business. I`m merely reporting.

#129 by soysauce on December 16, 2004 7:37pm PT
``You know folks, something that has been under the surface for this long, I sort of suspected it, but it is quite clear to me now. Casteism apparently is par for the course amongst indians, even those who otherwise may not be bigoted``

are bhai soya, we are not worthy, you are exalted highness. why are you acting so stupid? who said casteism is not rampant in india? now if you assume that to be true, its your problem, why blame others? ofcourse we are bigoted, and feel free to ask questions. so participate without acting to be above the frey, and calling others names like indian, and bigots (true or otherwise).

sincerely, garam-masala.

this is nothing more than an arbitrary inference.What do you mean by ``earning``in the context of crssing of castes?If you read Manu Samriti,it allows a male from higher caste to marry a female from a lower caste but does not allow vice versa.One cant convert to hinduism,he can only be a born hindu.If a muslim or a christian wants to convert to hinduism,what caste will be allotted to him?hinduism cannot be conceived without castes;Reservations may have given some economic/social status to a minority of Dalits,it has deepened the hatred in the minds of UC in the proportional extent.Its the constitution which does not allow the expressionof that hatred in same way as it was in the older days.I must say that with increase in literacy and urbanization-industrialization,the caste distinctions have cretainly got blurred to some extent in urban areas.The fact remains that the caste system has flourished because of the patronage it got from the state after the ``expulsion `` of Budhism from India and revivalism of hinduism after the fall of Maurya empire and it requires a strong state to eliminate casteism from India and reservation policy is not actually aimed at that.

re:#131 by harimau
I too was saddened by the death of MS Subbulakshmi. Often i have meditated in silence with her song in the background.
Not many people know that Lata Mangeshkar was an ardent fan of MS and would be seen sitting in the first row when latter sang at Shanmukhananda Hall in Bombay. Years later on the 50th anniversary of India becoming a Republic, GOI invited MS to sing in the Parliament, which she declined due to old age. Lata sang instead.
Truly a great singer and a great spiritual person.
One slight correction in your last post. Correct me if i am wrong but I believe it was Rukmini Arundale (and not Kamala Lakshman) who brought the dance from Devadasi tradition (where it was languishing for centuries) to popular practice. She also established Kalakshetra where classical dance training was imparted for the first time to the public.
Sridhar

soysauce #129
Kerala has had a lot of reservation in education and jobs for a long time, including for Muslims(which Tamil Nadu refuses to have). And for example, people I knew who were children of subsistence farmers were able to do law degrees because of reservations. So do not dare tell me I do not know the benefits of reservation.

Your accusation -that my questioning a political party/elected government/political ideology or my quoting from a Human Rights Watch/Home Ministry report on BC-on-Dalit violence is equivalent to my putting down BCs and Dalits- is quite untenable.

Political parties and elected governments are accountable and answerable for their ideologies/policies and for what happens under their watch. They can not claim eternal infallibility because Tamil Nadu is not a totalitarian state.

Ref jang #127

[thanks for the glimpse. i luv ``real`` postings.]

Some of the social changes that have taken place are also reflected in the way children are brought up.

It was common practice even in small towns in the 1910`s for children of all castes to attend school together. As my father returned from school everyday, it seems he would enter the house through the rear, draw water from the well for a quick bath, don dry clothes hanging in the clotheline and then enter the house. My grandfather was willing to let his children attend a common school but he would be damned if he let all that caste pollution inside his house!

From my very first day in school, none of this was asked of me. In fact, I only learnt about the old practive from a cousin much later in life, after I had finished all my education (except the crap I am learning from Soysauce aka Asli-Masanamuthu). This is just one example of how people were willing to adapt to changing circumstances. Nor did we live in ``agraharams`` (street of exclusively brahmin households).

My sister-in-law teaches at a national engineering institution. She was admonished by her neighbor (not a brahmin) for letting in a MBC (a real one, not one with just a certificate) colleague into her house when the MBC colleague came calling. Gutsy woman that she is, my sister-in-law looked her neighbor in the eye and said that if she were to follow the religious prescriptions exactly, she, the neighbor, won`t be allowed into her house either! This is the level of tolerance you see among the non-brahmins who show up on Chowk and claim to speak for equality! (Since they all live on campus housing, the neighbor is not just an ignorant villager, she is the wife of a colleague at the college!)

[i heard that madrasi (this as a general term) brhmins are absolutely taking over the classical music and dance, which only a few years back was a big no-no for brahmins (you know the devdasi tradition an all). can you folks comment?]

Classical (vocal) music has been pretty much the preserve of brahmins. There have been notable exceptions and there have been vocal musicians from other communities too though the appeal of classical music is rapidly diminishing among modern youngsters. Certain instruments were the specialty of certain groups. Nadaswaram (a shehnai-like instrument) and it accompanying percussion instrument the Thavil used to be played exclusively by the male descendants of devdasis while the female descendants took to the Bharatha Natyam dance.

It was the abolition of the devdasi system by legislative means in the 1930s that led to the decline of Bharatha Natyam as a dance form. It was a little brahmin girl named Kamala who took the dance world by storm in the early 1940s. She was featured prominently in the movies (just as a classical dancer for a dance number) and went abroad several times in the 1950s as part of India`s cultural exchanges with other countries. This set off a craze for dance and today you find people of all castes learning dance. If Kamala hadn`t taken up dance, you can be pretty sure the Love Queens would not be learning dance today because they have a greater aversion to anything remotely connected with the devdasi system than a brahmin -- who at least appreciates art -- would ever have.

[so soya, why do you hate brahmins and ``hindus`` of now?]

He still does because he is conditioned by the DK.DMK propaganda. You can see that in his responses to Sadna on this board. Just as Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion hires only brahmin lawyers, tax accountants and doctors for himself and his family, he recognizes quality but doesn`t want to acknowledge it!

In my post #92 on December 12, 2004, I asked

[... Would it {Vedic Hinduism} ever consider adding a fat movie actress to its list of deities?]

and answered it in the negative.

I must admit I was wrong.

There is one former movie actress whom Vedic Hindus consider to be the re-incarnation of Saraswathi, the Goddess of Learning. They did not build a temple to her but in their hearts they consider her equal to the gods.

I am referring to the legendary singer M. S. Subbulakshmi who passed away on Dec 11, 2004.

MS started her career in the music world and joined the movie business because of the great demand for actors who could sing in their own voice, there being no play-back singers a la Lata Mangeshkar in those days. MS acted only in 5 movies before she retired from the movies for ever and devoted the rest of her life to classical music, charitable causes and as the cultural ambassador of India. The entire earnings from her concert career went to charity and this was recognized when she was awarded the Magsaysay Award. Even when her husband`s business collapsed in 1977 and they had to sell their fine home in Chennai to pay off business debts, she continued to donate all her earnings to charity, preferring to live in a modest flat in Chennai. Her service to the cause of music and humanity was recognized when the Government of India conferred on her the title of Bharat Ratna, its greatest honor.

Born into a devdasi family (this was no secret), she married T. Sadasivam Iyer and served as his devoted wife, becoming more brahminical than one could get if one had been a brahmin by birth. Vedic Hindus had done exactly what they practiced millennia ago: they accepted her as a brahmin for her learning.

Crossing caste barriers is still possible in the 20th and 21st centuries as it was in early Vedic times. However, the conditions remain the same: you have to EARN it.

MS earned it easily.

The Love Queens and Tamil Citizens can`t because they will never try hard enough.

You know folks, something that has been under the surface for this long, I sort of suspected it, but it is quite clear to me now. Casteism apparently is par for the course amongst indians, even those who otherwise may not be bigoted. That`s why wholesale trashing of BCs, dalits, and what have you has been tolerated in this crowd. What is most amazing is the underlying belief in the various accusations, insinuations, and questioning that you defend the quota system only if it personally benefits you. Somehow indians wear blinkers when it comes to casteism where they see victims and victors, not a necessary social change in a resource-deprived country. Perhaps it is a reflection of the fact that indians here are ``making it`` and they identify more with the upper crust which they feel has been unduly punished. Either that or they have no clue.
It also is amazing that the kind of attacks we see on the culture and intelligence of BCs & dalits that are tolerated here. Do you believe the superiority of brahmins is genetic asks someone as if bigotry could be reasoned with. You display so much knowledge someone else chimes in. If the roles were changed, if it were the stupid dirt-poor indians who were at the receiving end, we wouldn`t be reasoning with or complimenting the David Dukes.
The country is going to the dogs someone else says because talented people are not accomodated. Guess what, talented people of other disadvantaged groups had to suffer for a very long time. That couldn`t be of course because we all know brahmins to be specially gifted. It`s ironic that the defender and spokesman of tamil brahmins here is someone who is poorly equipped in logical skills - I present you Sriman Hariamau Iyer. He is your run-of-the mill Brahmin, run-of-the mill tamil who has taken up shadow boxing as a hobby.

FWIW, I was at the wrong end of the quota system - you see my parents are brahmins. An interesting thing about TN villages is that perhaps because most of us were dirt poor we were sympathetic towards those who were poorer than us. We were poor but hopeful. The BCs & dalits had nothing to look forward to except for a life of hard labor. That is s.l.o.w.l.y changing now. We all somehow got by and I don`t think I have suffered terribly due to the quota system. My umpteen cousins & nephews & nieces in TN are doing just fine. They are not cribbing about it as much as the sadnas, sridhars or harimaus sitting far away writing much, comprehending little.

soysauce #126
``Either you`re dissembling or you have really poor writing skills. You have broken down your original point into two parts which changes the meaning completely.``

Um, not really. You appear to have poor reading and comprehension skills. I wrote in #99 ``Am also still unable to understand why after 69% reservation for `backward` castes and 35 odd years of non-Brahmin DMK/AIADMK rule, 3-4% Brahmins are still held responsible for `oppression` of other castes. Feel free to say why you think otherwise.``

If you weren`t so paranoid, it would be clear from my first post onward that my intention is to understand what role DMK/AIADMK rule and affirmative action have had on AIADMK/DMK`s own longstanding complaint about Brahmin oppression.


``Your q. 2 doesn`t make any sense. Are brahmins significant socially - amongst themselves they certainly are as they always have been.``


I did not ask what Brahmins think. I was asking what you think. Ref above.


``If I have been a little harsh in this little debate it`s partly because you have been putting questions to me based on some silly assumptions about me and certainly not based on anything I have said myself.``

Er, you haven`t been harsh, you have been much less than straightforward. You harp on one sentence to make it about me personally so you can avoid addressing the main issue. The only assumption I made was that you are a Tamilian. Any other Tamilian also could have answered. Clearly you lack the requisite objectivity to do so.

The apparent reason is you are trying to pretend that the last 80 years and counting of explicitly anti-Brahmin rhetoric and politics never happened. I cannot pretend it did not happen and I want to know how much longer such anti-Brahmin politics and rhetoric will continue. Particularly since such politics is irrelevant to `backward` castes own behaviour to castes lower than themselves, that ought to be good reason to re-examine it. Stick to the single issue anti-brahmin rhetoric about 3-4% of your population for eternity and 18% Dalits will automatically stop being persecuted by 30% OBCs in course of time is a stupid line of thinking. But as I said, you clearly lack the requisite objectivity to address this issue.

--

General comment : Apparently identity politics is like a deep pit, and once people fall into it, they are beyond the reach of common sense and reason, even after such politics has mostly achieved its original purpose of getting a people their due rights. It is possible that with identity politics being the end and not the means, India will just become a series of deep pits with Indians lying divided in them, out of reach of reason and each other. The thing to see if the evolution of Dalit politics will be any different.

#123 by harimau

thanks for the glimpse. i luv ``real`` postings. i was surprised to hear that Iyers keep Ekadashi..is it not a Vaishnava thingy?

i thought mani shankar iyer is a nominee to the upper house and not an MP.

i heard that madrasi (this as a general term) brhmins are absolutely taking over the classical music and dance, which only a few years back was a big no-no for brahmins (you know the devdasi tradition an all). can you folks comment?

so soya, why do you hate brahmins and ``hindus`` of now?

#124 sadna
Either you`re dissembling or you have really poor writing skills. You have broken down your original point into two parts which changes the meaning completely. Earlier you were talking about the ``missing brahmins`` and implying some kind of ``ethnic`` cleansing and now you`re backpedaling and making a very trivial point that 3 - 4% is insignificant.
Your q. 2 doesn`t make any sense. Are brahmins significant socially - amongst themselves they certainly are as they always have been.
On q. 3 power dynamics has indeed shifted away from higher castes (not just brahmins). However, except in a few cases, this does not mean that brahmins have been victimized or purged (there you go, Jang). (Mani Shankar Aiyer, a non-Tamil for all practical purposes and with a red-flag last name, got elected to the Parliament not too long ago.) It`s a natural result of the republican system that we have. Is there caste politics in TN? Absolutely. The grand shift has been that someone else is the ``brahmin`` now in terms of political power. But I do believe that as far as economic and educational opportunities are concerned there is more equality, thanks to the quota system (I agree with bbabu). Dalits and BCs still lag behind because they started with a huge handicap.
If I have been a little harsh in this little debate it`s partly because you have been putting questions to me based on some silly assumptions about me and certainly not based on anything I have said myself.

soysauce #120
I already conceded the numerical reduction part and yet you harp on that while avoiding all questions related to everything else in that sentence or any other? Why not simply address the straightforward issues instead of taking a convoluted detour into your paranoid fantasies?

As I said ``even if we agree to disagree on ``reduce`` due to migration``.

So let us say for purposes of this argument, Brahmins in TN are not reduced numerically at all for any reason whatsoever.

( meaning for purposes of this argument assume that I never talked to anyone anytime ever in my life on this subject nor did the USIS ever publish any speculative reasons for its Chennai consulate getting the largest number of visa applications nor did anyone ever leave TN for any reason at all).

So now tell me for my own information
1. Are Brahmins numerically insignificant at 3-4% or not?
2. Have Brahmins been reduced to insignificance politically and socially?
3. After 69% reservations and 35+ years of nonBrahmin DMK/AIADMK, are Brahmins still the primary `oppressors` of other castes and Dalits in Tamil Nadu?

Kindly realise, even if you disagree with me vehemently on everything, you should be willing to offer me some information for me to understand the issues better. I have repeatedly asked you to disagree and tell me why you disagree on the above questions 1, 2, 3.

soya

dharavi is HUGE bussiness, and the gang rivalry there is very cosmo. dombivli is more interesting..it was once an affordable bedroom community for white-caller, relatively docile marathis (bank worker etc). the local agri community (original land-owners) are the dadas. the new influx of tamils is causing some tensions. i cant tell if the tamils are brahmin or not, but they are toughies. they clash with the locals and dont take any shit. i have witnessed some good fights in a local train bet an agri and a tamil, fighting it out in bad mubai hindi, progressing to fists and later knives, with further promise of retaliation.

soya, so have brahmins been purged out of civil service jobs in TN or not? how about private sector like TVS, TTK etc?