Caste and the City

soysauce #120
sadna #119

Brahmins in Tamilnadu have no economic influence because they do not start businesses and they do not own any prime farmland. TVS Group is an exception on the business side. Most of your typical South Indian veggie hotels are not owned by Brahmins. The increase in engineering and (now medical) colleges have removed any excuse for caste based reservations. Reservations impacted 15 years of Brahmin youth (1980-1995). There are no excuses for the current crop of kids.

re:#116 by soysauce
``Brahmins have been migrating since before Partition (Professor Chandrasekhar was born in Lahore``
This guy is now stretching it!
Being born in a place is not same as migrating. I was born in Delhi though i am a Tamilian and have now migrated to USA. Get it, dude?
I personally know a brilliant doctor working in AIIMS who migrated from Madras in early 80s because he saw no scope there (being a brahmin). His own sister could not get admission to a medical college due to her caste. This guy migrated to Delhi, got into medical college through a fair competition and is now a cardiologist at AIIMS. I need no further proof than this.
There is absolutely no doubt that a kind of reverse discrimination is happening in Tamil Nadu. I saw students who were from the ``reserved category`` with abysmal knowledge of Medicine getiing an MD seat. Tamil Nadu will pay the price for this stupidity one day.
Sridhar

Ref jang #117

[DM .. here is my butt-in

.....as a brahmin, you are told from day one that you are special, you go thru innumerable rituals from the thread ceremony to a daily evening-morning rituals which include rote learning of shlokas (and arithmatic tables), showers, then for the really lucky you get a head-shave thus dumping you to the nerd-corner at school (at least untill the hair grow back).]

Nobody in my family ever told me I was special because of my brahmin birth. I was special to my parents as were my siblings for just being their children. No more, no less.

The only daily rituals were the lighting of the lamp in the niche maintained for pictures of Hindu gods in the morning as well as in the evening. None in the family performed the `sandhya vandanam` except those youngsters just invested with the sacred thread and that too for perhaps a year or two to memorize the mantras. The other rituals were simply observances of Ganesh Chaturthi, Navratri, Sankaranthi, Diwali and New Year`s Day, with the usual monthly festival to either of Rama, Krishna, Kartikeya or some other god. The thing special about these days were that these were the days a sweet dish would be prepared, which is a treat for us kids. However, we were also not allowed to touch any of these until they were offered to the gods first. In many instances, the puja on these days might be performed by just the women with a priest coming in only on certain occasions. There were rather elaborate observances of the shraddha ceremony honoring ancestors once a year.

We also watched as the elderly observed fast on Ekadasi day (twice a month) following it with a spartan meal the next day. We also learnt to live by rules: do not touch your elders, do not touch anyone who has taken his bath, do not touch the food (I was never allowed to help myself to the food, I was always served by a female relative), segregate women during their periods, stay away from new mothers for 40 days of ritual pollution, etc., etc., etc. The level of untouchability within the household would not be believed by all these folks complaining about untouchability!

Children were taught shlokas as prayers but it was the girls who were required to recite them rather than the boys. Girls were taught music if the parents could afford lessons and a music teacher was available. The rest of us absorbed what we could by listening as the girls were taught or practiced their lessons.

[... you are asked to speak ``clean`` language and not the colloquail one,...]

True. That is why we are the only ones who can say ``Thamizh`` correctly in all of Tamil Nadu and not the Masanamuthus.

[... you have tons of relatives with scholarship and achievement who you are expected to emulate,...]

Not in my case. We still have relatives by the dozens who have just a high school education and a clerical job.

[... and easy money etc. is not praised.]

Work, education and honesty are valued higher than money.

[... a constant thread is that you are ``special`` due to birth (a chosen people?), that you trace your ancestry to some ancient sage Vasishta..]

The reason to trace your ancestry to some rishi is to ensure that you don`t marry within your gotra.

[tamils have really kept up with this. you go to the temple and they ask whats your gotra, and nakshatra etc. when they convey your regards to the gods. so their is a whole thing about pride being built up over generations.]

The same thing is asked of every single person. Everyone knows what nakshatra (star) he was born under. The Masanamuthus have been given/chosen for themselves gotras so they don`t have a problem. In fact, while the brahmins have their gotras tied to some ancient rishi, the gotras of the Masanamuthus are Siva, Muruga, etc. I presume gods still outrank rishis!

[so my guess is dont bother with some synthetic dravid pride, specially when it means rejecting your enviromental culture, its ridiculous. classical cuture is always maintained by the elites in the society, nothing wrong with that, and no need to reject it for some marxist ideas. just get busy doing well.]

The people who rival brahmins in their practices and piety are the Pillais as I mentioned before. They were not doing it to ape the brahmins., they maintained the tradition of worship in Tamil and were the custodians of secular and religious Tamil literature for millennia and were proud of their role.

The real trouble is that the rest of the Masanamuthus have been told by propagandists that they cannot compete on an equal footing. Instead of asking whether this is impugning their intelligence, the Masanamuthus have decided that it is so much easier to jump on the gravy train rather than work to their fullest potential.

As far as I can see there are a couple of castes who take pride in doing a good job. The first consists of the Pallans and the Paraiyans who actually work the fields. The other is the barber who trims your hair. You never see anyone coming back with a bad haircut from a barber though results from the modern ``beauty parlors`` is a different story! The rest of the Masanamuthus are leeches on society feeding on the hard work of the farm workers.

#119 sadna
Here`s your statement:
btw, it is a bit surprising that after so many years of `lower caste` rule in Tamil Nadu with Brahmins reduced to insignificance, numerically, politically and socially,

Seems to me that brahmins reduced to insginificance (numerically no less not proportionally which is a very strong statement) means exactly that. That they were significant numerically before. Resorting to anecdotal arguments on sensitive issues is what hindutvavadis have been doing. Your style of argument is exactly that.
If brahmins are 3 - 4% of the 62-odd million tamils, that is about 2 million. You are arguing that in absolute terms ( reduced to insignificance numerically ) the number of brahmins has come down. That is, it was much greater than 2 million before. What`s your evidence? You heard that somewhere! It must be so because that`s the only thing that makes sense in view of the quota system, etc. Drats, this is worse than hindutvavadi logic!
While you apparently support the reservation system you also are fond of using incendiary language such as they have been reduced to small numbers. With the reservation system, given that there were a limited number of seats, some gain some lose. The alternatives are (1) not to have a quota system, or (2) increase the number of colleges, etc. much faster than increase in population. (2) would have been an option only if there were sufficient resources.
A student who goes elsewhere to get education because of the quota system is not a victim. He or she had the option of joining a lesser college or get a degree that has no pecuniary value. Instead he or she looks for better opportunities. Not much different than the plane loads of students who come to this country as educational refugees. Lack of opportunities is not someone else`s crime although you make it sound like it was. The Mughals could not continue to lord it over everyone else does not make them victims.
Where I`m coming from you can have no clue.

soysauce #116
Calling me Hindutva-vadi is what loser Pakis and their loser Indian friends do. Congratulations on joining the loser club.

Calling me `Hindutva-vadi` for disputing DMK/AIADMK conventional wisdom on Brahmins does not make for convincing argument for a non-party-affiliated person like me, it only reveals to me where you are coming from.

Since I have disputed typical Hindutva-vadi type arguments on Muslim population figures and other issues on this and other forums, it becomes clear to me that you are a typical chowk/sulekha type loser who resorts to labelling when they have no arguments to offer.

Apart from implying I am a liar though I clearly stated what I based my assertions on(which you refused to acknowledge, forget about disagreeing ), do you have any other basis for your stance that Brahmins have not ``reduced` to insignificant numbers in TN ?

Do you have any basis for disputing the fact that government policies were designed explicitly to reduce their share in jobs and education which is why many had to seek education and jobs elsewhere? Noone went around in Kerala targeting a single community like the politics and policies of TN have targetted Brahmins.

Even if we agree to disgree on `reduced` being caused by migration, why haven`t you at least explained why you disagree that Brahmins are numerically insignificant at 3-4% of the Tamil Nadu population? What %age is numerically insignificant in your estimation?

Do you agree or disagree that 69% reservation and 35 years of nonBrahmin DMK/AIADMK rule + 3-4% population means Brahmins are no longer in a position to `oppress` other castes?

I can`t call your arguments absurd because you make none.

.

#115 sadna
You make an assertion and I ought to disprove it! Since you claim the 3 - 4 % number is reduced , meaning that it was higher before, tell me what it was, when it was, and where you got the information from. Why do you sound like a hindutvavadi arguing population statistics? Hmmm?
Your second assertion was that migration was EXPLICITLY because of government policies discriminating against them. Where is the proof of this other than hearsay? Did you migrate because of discrimination? Did the backward caste tamils who migrated to singapore, and malaysia starting in the 50s through the 80s do so because of discrimination. Brahmins have been migrating since before Partition (Professor Chandrasekhar was born in Lahore). (I can hear some of them saying since I cannot become a temple priest I might as well join the central government and become an officer in XYZpur!) Your arguments are absurd.

DM .. here is my butt-in

i think eliticism cannot be scaled. i mean if everyone is elite, then what is there to be proud of? as a brahmin, you are told from day one that you are special, you go thru innumerable rituals from the thread ceremony to a daily evening-morning rituals which include rote learning of shlokas (and arithmatic tables), showers, then for the really lucky you get a head-shave thus dumping you to the nerd-corner at school (at least untill the hair grow back). you are asked to speak ``clean`` language and not the colloquail one, you have tons of relatives with scholarship and achievement who you are expected to emulate, and easy money etc. is not praised. a constant thread is that you are ``special`` due to birth (a chosen people?), that you trace your ancestry to some ancient sage Vasishta..

tamils have really kept up with this. you go to the temple and they ask whats your gotra, and nakshatra etc. when they convey your regards to the gods. so their is a whole thing about pride being built up over generations.

so my guess is dont bother with some synthetic dravid pride, specially when it means rejecting your enviromental culture, its ridiculous. classical cuture is always maintained by the elites in the society, nothing wrong with that, and no need to reject it for some marxist ideas. just get busy doing well.

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soysauce #106
``I hope you`ll agree that there is no evidence of any sort that brahmins have been reduced to insignificance numerically. ``

Sorry, I can not. You have offered no basis for asserting that Brahmin population numbers have not reduced. Nor do you explain why at 3-4% their numbers are still significant.

And since migration of Brahmins was explicitly because of government policies discriminating against them, their migration is not the same as migration of Mallus who were all equally affected by lack of employment in Kerala.


As for your point about Dalits and different mythologies, different religions, as I said before that might be true of many Dalit communities, but it does not apply to all Dalit communities all over India. In Kerala for instance, there has been Sankritization of Dalits too. Also, delving into history has shown that some present-day Dalit communities were formerly savarna communities who were `outcasted` after they were defeated in war - in other words not all Dalits are direct descendents of the indigenous pre-Hindu communities.

Also when I went looking for news of Dalit violence in Tamil Nadu, in a recent episode(in May 2004) of violence in a village in Coimbatore district, one reason for friction listed was refusal of the local community to allow Dalits to enter the local Hindu temple which was run by the Hindu endowment trust.

``on the face of it would imply that those who are metaphorically at the bottom wish to move to the top.``
I don`t think Sanksritisation in independent India necessarily implies that. After attaining social acceptance and political power, position in caste heirarchy means nothing as you say.

I believe it is for every subgroup of Dalits to themselves decide which route is best for their this, whether outside of Hinduism or within Hinduism. I do not see any downside to Hindu society being forced to make Dalits welcome within Hindu society - which is the main culprit in their situation.

Ref M.B.Z.Isphahani #110

[...I would build a mixed living complex to give away free a condominium
Luxurious 500 x 4 bedroom apartment complex worth $350,000 (Rs 1,750,000)
each with huge garden tennis court ,pool ,gym ,day care to poorest but highly
educated family one from every caste creed religion including reverend,priest
imam gurus.

I wonder if my 500 give away free luxury apartments will remain vacant if caste
and religion mixed?]

So, Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion decided to build ``Equality Townships`` in Tamil Nadu where in the same area people of all castes will live together. Government money was spent in creating this ``Samatthuva Purams`` in various villages at least in his home district of Thanjavur/Tiruvarur.

The thugs who call themselves OBCs occupied almost all of these using their political connections and the Dalits are still living in their huts.

So, the answer is: the apartments will not remain vacant. They will be occupied by those with the most clout who are not the Dalits.

Are you happy that somebody has already tried your suggestions and the results are identical to the results of 54 years of affirmative action in India?

harimou:

It is evident that you have a tremendous pride in tamil brahmins - a pride which, I might add, is shared by many non-brahmins as well. My question to you is this: do you think that the brahmins are superior because of their genes or because of the deeply ingrained ethics of hard work and discipline instilled in them by their parents and the brahmin society in which they live? If you think that it is the former, i.e., genetic, I have no further question. But if you think that it is largely the latter, do you have any prescription about how the same kind of discipline, hard work and ambition can be brought into the non-brahmin tamil society?

Ref sadna #99

When talking to Asli-Masanamuthu aka Soysauce, please do not quote any reports from any human rights organizations about the organized thuggery of the BCs against Dalits. He cannot think beyond the cliches of the DK and the DMK. Any attempt to make him think on his own is likely to result in that malady uniquely seen only in Tamil movies called ``moolaik kodhippu`` (literally, ``Boiling brain``).

Soysauce actually believes that ``Boiling Brain`` is a real medical condition. In his case, his brain has already been fried by the DK propaganda.

re: Sadna`s last post
``Am also still unable to understand why after 69% reservation for `backward` castes and 35 odd years of non-Brahmin DMK/AIADMK rule, 3-4% Brahmins are still held responsible for `oppression` of other castes. Feel free to say why you think otherwise. ``
Well said, Sadna.
You can also ask the question: why there is something like a ``Forward Caste`` and a ``Backward caste`` after 35 years of DMK (mis)rule?
The answer is simple: this is their bread and butter. They need to keep showing that they are pro-backward class (so, it makes eminent sense to keep them backward!) in order to garner votes during elections.
One other thing is worth noting. Brahmins never resisted social change in Tamil Nadu. I believe Rajaji (as the CM of Congress govt in the 30s) initiated temple reforms that allowed low caste to enter temples. When the brahmin clout diminished and their supremacy was eclipsed by political ascendance of the DMK party, brahmins quietly moved aside and did not resist. This is in striking contrast to what is happening today in Bihar, UP, where caste-based clashes are a daily occurrance and higher castes are resisting any social change with violence.
Sridhar

Ref jang #102

[#99 by sadna

waat..sasikala is a thevar? i thought she is a kallan! (like i care)]

Kallan is a sub-sect within the Thevar community which sometimes calls itself the ``Mukkulatthor`` (Three castes). Thus, Sasikala is both a Kallan and a Thevar.

[anyways, aidmk is kind of not REAL dravid, dmk is the real one. i am also interested in reading soyas response.]

Don`t wait for Asli-Masanamuthu`s writings which are regurgitations from Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion. Get a copy of ``Castes and Tribes of Southern India``. I am yet to find a single caste native to Tamil Nadu except the Dalits. The DMK amd ADMK are practically interchangeable. It is the Telugu-speaking Reddy`s and Naidu`s, the Kannada-speaking Gounder`s, who simply name their daughters Love Queen and their sons Tamil Drunkard (Tamil Kudi Magan) to pretend to be of Tamil ancestry much like Sasikala was given a Sanskrit name that implies she might be of higher caste.

[ i thought that all tamils are brahmins, and later in my life was surprised to find that most tamils eat meat. most of my tamil classmates in college were brahmins, except some in thru affirmative action, who were the cool ones with relatives in military (EME) and got us cheap booze.]

Yep, long ago, Tamil brahmins started leaving Tamil Nadu in droves to Bombay, Calcutta and Delhi. You are right about them NOT being the affirmative action folks in college.

[interestingly, tamilnadu seems to have brahmins but no other ``Upper Class``!]

There is actually another caste called the Pillais who are classified as forward in Tamil Nadu. The Pillais are universally Shaivites, extremely religious, and maintain the same level of scholarship, this time in Tamil, as the brahmins did in both Sanskrit and Tamil. What Asli-Masanamuthu cannot abide is the fact that the only source for Tamil palm-leaf manuscripts used to be Tamil poets of the Pillai castes or the monasteries where the monks would be recruited from among the Pillais (the various ``adheenams``). And it was Dr. U. V. Swaminatha Iyer who went from village to village, knocking on doors to locate these manuscripts, who then analyzed the manuscripts, corrected any transcription errors by reconciling the multiple versions he found, wrote the analytical commentary on them, raised funds for their publication, and successfully brought out the definitive editions on paper. It was thus that four of the five great epic poems that Tamils are justly proud of was saved from the ravages of time and termites. Unfortunately, the fifth, that UV Swaminatha Iyer had held in his hands only 120 years back but returned to the owners because he didn`t have the time to devote to it, was never found again.

Despite his love of the Tamil language, Dr. Swaminatha Iyer did not name his children Tamil King or Love Queen. On the other hand, among the Masanamuthus there is a movie actor named Silambarasan (``King of Silappadhikaram``, Silappadhikaram being one of the five major Tamil epics) whose name is shortened to ``Chimp``. This Chimp has a brother named Kuralarasan (``King of Tirukkural``, Torukkural being a collection of poems) who wants to break into the movies. The only diminutive I can think of for Kuralaran is ``Kurangu`` which means monkey. Thus you can see the travesty of history whereby the Masanamuthus who were burning up ancient palm-leaf manuscripts for fuel are calling themselves Tamil King and Love Queen whereas the ONLY two castes that served the Tamil language are demonized in today`s Tamil Nadu.

Truly, the ``Dravidians`` of Tamil Nadu can successfully organize only circle-jerks.

Jang,
Aren`t the Dharavi gangs controlled by Tamils?

Ref dost-mittar #94

[harimou#97:

Nearly half a century ago, Prof. M.N. Srinivas documented the phenomenon of sanskritisation in the south, whereby a number of upwardly mobil lower-castes (what you call masanmathus) imitated upper caste social norms (such as shunning meat and wearing sacred threads) to successully seek acceptance as upper castes. I was wondering if this phenomenon came to an end with the coming to power of the dravidian parties, especially since the upper castes themselves seem to be quite busy desankritising themselves.]

I have taken up the book ``The Northern Nadars of Tamil Nadu: On Indian Caste in the Process of Change`` by Dennis Templeman in order to provide a detailed reply to you. Unfortunately, the music season in Chennai is interfering with the reading of this book so you will have to bear with me for a while. Even if this board goes off the front page, you will get your reply.

[Serious reply, please!]

ALL my replies are serious. It is just that they contain unpalatable truths about Islamic thugs, Tamil politicians, Masanamuthus pretending to be egalitarians, etc. In general, I am carrying on a lone battle against hypocrisy.