Caste and the City

Being a late entrant to the discussion, I tried to go through all the posts but could not.. Looks like much of what has been written is about TN and the usual stuff from usual culprits..

Being from Chennai, belonging to the IT generation, and having seen friends and relatives marrying into different religions and castes, I think I am qualified enough to comment on the situation.

Today`s kids are more concerned about education and jobs than castes.. The forward castes (meaning just the brahmins, all others get some kinda backward certificates) get a raw deal during admissions to professional education and form a hatred towards others and see them as un-deserving.. The others have been in-grained with a steady dose of anti-brahminism thanks to the DK/DMK folks.. But once they start mingling with ``others`` in college and work, quite a few see the differences were just superficial and accept the ``others`` as ``equal``. We can see lots of ``love`` marriages between classmates and colleagues..

I think for a better society the government needs to encourage such couples and create a special affirmative action category called the ``love`` category.. and provide various benefits...After all that`s how people got married in the glorious ``sangam`` period.. ``thalaivan`` and ``thalaivi`` meet, fall in love, separate and suffer from ``pasalai`` disease :-)

Ref Asli-Masanamuthu #168

[What`s going on between you & the queen of poes gardens? If she was worth a trip for a shared intimate dip in the sewer water, she couldn`t possibily be all that bad.]

What, are you having nightmares like MK Stalin that he might get arrested?

How did you spend Dec 25? Did you buy daughter Love Queen presents or did you explain to her that JC is a fraud on the unsuspecting public? Or did you spend it in mourning for MGR who died Christmas Eve 17 years ago?

[Re: sangam versus sangham, as there`s no ``gh`` sound in tamil, it couldn`t be sangham, no?]

So, I suppose you are claiming ``sangam`` is a Tamil word? Tell that to any North Indian; he will at least get a laugh.

[Please use your brahminometer and tell me which of the poets were brahmins. Were they iyer or iyengar? Did they write erotic poems or analytical ones?]

I think you can read the commentaries on ``Akananooru`` and ``Purananooru``. They do tell us who the authors are and in some cases their castes.

By the way, the guys who wrote the Tamil grammars, such as the Sage Agastya and Tolkappiyar were brahmins. Sage Agastya... the guy who crossed the Vindhyas to settle deep in Tamil Nadu..... you are NOT going to claim an invader from the North as a native Tamilian, are you? One doesn`t need a brahminometer for that.

Here is a simple brahminometer for you: if somebody can say ``Thamizh`` properly he would be a brahmin. The rest of you fcukers cannot even say that properly despite having names like Tamil King, Senthamizh Selvan, etc.

re:#159 by soysauce
I got a question for this idiot.
Let us stop talking about how brahmins have become a minority. Perhaps they were a minority for centuries. AFAIK, there is no census documenting their numbers over the centuries.
Historically, reservation (or Affirmative Action, as it is called in USA) is reserved for minorities. For eg, in USA, some Universites (UC Berkeley comes to mind) reserve some seats for Blacks and Hispanics. This is to correct a historical imbalance in which the above groups were rendered socially and economically deprived. This is my understanding though i may be wrong. But these groups are in a minority (significant minorities at that).
The situation of Brahmins in Tamil Nadu is different. Brahmins today constitute less than 5% of the population. 30 years ago when DMK came to power, brahmins were ousted from their position of political power. Slowly, they were ousted from all academic positions, govt jobs etc. Today, they are the ones who are in need of reservation! That many of them are good and did not give a damn to govt jobs and sought fortunes elsewhere does not diminsh the problems faced by this group today.
Let Soysauce answer my question then. Why does DMK party keep harping on this Forward Class and Backward Class even 30 years after coming to power? Why are brahmins still categorised as the ``Forward Class`` when they are in a minscule minority?
Sridhar

harimau iyer,
What`s going on between you & the queen of poes gardens? If she was worth a trip for a shared intimate dip in the sewer water, she couldn`t possibily be all that bad.
Re: sangam versus sangham, as there`s no ``gh`` sound in tamil, it couldn`t be sangham, no? Please use your brahminometer and tell me which of the poets were brahmins. Were they iyer or iyengar? Did they write erotic poems or analytical ones?

Ref Asli-Masanamuthu aka Turd-for-Brains #163

[unkalji, I must admit I`m slow on the uptake. I finally figured out what you meant by 2 stars.]

Just SLOW on the uptake? There has been NO uptake at all!

[Danke.]

Would this be an ancient Tamil word?

Ref Kannayiram (``Thousand Eyes``) #162

[In sangam literature, to the spurned lover even honey tastes bitter.]

Do you know the name of the author of that poem? Was he brahmin by caste? After all, we do know that there were several brahmin Tamil poets -- you know, Invaders through the Khyber Pass and all that -- who held membership in the Sanghams.

Note that aspirated `gh` in ``Sangham``, not ``Sangam``, a sound that does not exist in Glorious Tamil nor does the word `Sangham` so that ought to leave you and the Elder Son of Mother Tamil scratching their heads about what Tamil name to call the three Sanghams of Tamil Poets.

What a bunch of pathetic losers, not even having a word for a literary assembly!

#164 sadna
Sorry, denial won`t do. Did you or did you not claim that brahmins` numbers have been reduced on the basis of some random, cooked-up evidence? And did you or did you not preach to me about identity politics? What was the assumption that went into it sinceI had not claimed any sort of caste identity? Again, what was the reason for asking the questions you did out of the blue in the first place in a post addressed to me?
BTW, I`m going to be advising my relatives to stay put until Sadna puts on her superhindutva cape and comes to their rescue. But first they`d have to sit thru her lectures of course.

soysauce #159
Your post makes absolutely no sense to me.

The reason for this disconnect could be that you did not read any of my posts and I did not read any of harimau`s posts - and you are replying to his posts in your posts to me.

Or it could be that you are under some personal stress.

Or this is just dramay-bazi on your part.

Whatever it is. TC and g`bye.

unkalji, I must admit I`m slow on the uptake. I finally figured out what you meant by 2 stars. So I went from 5 to 2 stars? Hopefully, at this rate, I`ll go below 0 stars & set a record. That ought to freak you out even more. Get your friends & family to rate me. Danke.

#161
unkalji, are you saying you try to figure out frame rates and strange aliasing effects while you`re watching porno? Or is it classical music - you confuse me. As they say argue with a mad man & it`ll be hard to say which is which.
You make it sound as though brahmin reproduction occurs via abiogenesis. Relax, old man.
Why are you so bitter towards your bathing partner? In sangam literature, to the spurned lover even honey tastes bitter. Could it be, could it be..

Ref Asli-Masanamuthu #160

[unkalji, tut tut. Are you equating classical music concerts to watching porn films?]

Einstein once said, ``Mathematics is music for the mind; music is mathematics for the soul.`` To an analytically minded person -- who can only be brahmins in India -- classical music hence becomes an excellent soul-satisfying mental exercise.

On the other hand, low-caste mufukkas like you will be spending your spare time -- time that is not spent at the local Center for the Study of Thanthai Periyar`s Thoughts and Circle Jerk Society -- in watching porn movies.

[You mean you get the same kind of jollies from listening to music as you would from watching pondi? Man you are walking encyclopaedia of psychiatric disorders!]

You know, you are becoming like that freak Headshrinker and that other janitorial shrink Studebaker. One disappeared from the scene and the other got banned.

[BTW, have you had a tryst with your object of affection, her virgin self, during any of these events? If you did, it would add to the thrill I suppose.]

It may surprise you that most brahmins do not think along the lines that you cheap Tamil-cinema-watching scum do. Since we supplied Jayalalitha to the screens, it ought to be obvious that we have our own steady supply of good-looking females whom we marry. It is fcukers like you to look at even a fat, aged movie actress and lust after her.

#158 sadna
Are brahmins still the primary oppressors -where did this question even come from - was it related to anything that had been discussed in the thread until then?
What is most amazing to me is that you had several opportunities to clarify yourself with respect to your claim that brahmins have been reduced to numerical insignificance. You weren`t asking are brahmins responsible for the current situation given their position, numbers, etc. But no, you meant what you had written, not a word of it out place, it was I who had the problem. You had deduced this from a careful observation of visa application pattern. If you call that anecdotal evidence & hindutva-type logic, then you must be into identity politics, you`re one of those driving the poor brahmins out.
Is that a pretty good summary?
This was not the first time you have alluded to my caste despite my pleading not to make assumptions about me. This has happened at least once before on a previous thread. I suggest you examine your prejudices carefully if you find casteism abhorrent.
Finally, may I request you not to club me with harimau? I`d rather be a sulekha loser (whatever that is) than an unhinged lunatic like harimau.

#157
unkalji, tut tut. Are you equating classical music concerts to watching porn films? You mean you get the same kind of jollies from listening to music as you would from watching pondi? Man you are walking encyclopaedia of psychiatric disorders!
BTW, have you had a tryst with your object of affection, her virgin self, during any of these events? If you did, it would add to the thrill I suppose.

soysauce #155
I posted an HRW report and quotes/reports from the press to support my contention about DMK/AIADMK/BC complicity in Dalit attacks. Go back to my posts and look at them.

In any case, why must I present facts to ask if reservations have worked in TN and whether Brahmins are still the primary `oppressors`?

Let us agree that
-you have no answer
-you are trying hard to pretend no such question was repeatedly asked and
-you are trying hard to label those who do ask such questions as morally inferior to yourself. You and harimau are not that different finally.

You are free to have the last word.

Ref Asli-Masanamuthu #156

[unkalji,
Your threadcrapping may be indicative of lowered dopamine levels. You should see a physician ASAP.]

Anytime I feel unwell, I will get myself treated, don`t you worry your puny head about it. Except that, I will do exactly what Murasoli ``Drumbeat`` Maran did: fly to the US for a REAL doctor. The non-brahmins are no good at being doctors as he knew.

[BTW, you should be wary of Jang. He is tricky guy who is damning you with faint praise. To wit, he says calling you a runofthemill brahmin is an insult to brahmins. As the Tamil advice goes, you should pull your tongue out & die :0]

Is that a medical discovery of ancient Tamils that was covered up by the invading brahmins: pulling out one`s tongue causes death? Is this what they teach in medical schools in Tamil Nadu?

[Just kidding, go see a physician anyway. Lack of time should be no excuse since you`re on vacation. How could I tell?;) ]

You could tell because I told Dost-Mittar I am too busy because of the music season in Chennai. I would attend classical music concerts during my vacation; you would get your fill of porn movies.

#154 sadna
If the shoe fits, wear it. You speak of identity politics, the only identity politics in this board has been from casteists like you who readily bestow caste identity on others & get all hot, bothered & indignant when that`s pointed out. Your fake indignation begs the question, why. Why are you a casteist, why do you so readily lie, etc. (Thanks for bringing it to my attention that you may have been lying when I thought you were merely mistaken.) What`s in it for you?
Any facts other than that brahmins are being wiped out of TN that you`d like to enlighten us with?

unkalji,
Your threadcrapping may be indicative of lowered dopamine levels. You should see a physician ASAP.
BTW, you should be wary of Jang. He is tricky guy who is damning you with faint praise. To wit, he says calling you a runofthemill brahmin is an insult to brahmins. As the Tamil advice goes, you should pull your tongue out & die :0
Just kidding, go see a physician anyway. Lack of time should be no excuse since you`re on vacation. How could I tell?;)

soysauce #150
``I am certainly willing to share what little I know with people but I`m not going to be giving any quarter to those who have no willingness to learn and are interested only in verbal fisticuffs.``

and
`` When you engage me in a duel, you don`t set the rules.``

:).

Firstly, Mr Paranoid Persecuted, there is no duel except from your side and I was not engaging you in `verbal fisticuffs`. I was asking the world at large whether reservations have worked or not. I repeated that often enough. There was no reason for you to reply at all if you did not want to. But if simply asking that question set off a persecution mania within you, that is your funeral.

I don`t think it did actually, your professed outrage and victimhood is just drama, as the losers club on chowk is wont to engage in.

In #152 I wrote

[... But you won`t find these mufukkas willing to give their daughters or sons in marriage to a Muslim or Christian. Some people remain mleccha-s to even these guys! It is easy to talk equality but difficult to practice!]

Asli-Masanamuthu is sitting in the US and he is already a minority. So, him becoming a Muslim should not add to his handicap, unless the claim that Indian Muslims are systematically discriminated against and so he cannot convert out of Hinduism.

He won`t do it. There are SOME people that he considers to be Untouchable. His list of detestable Untouchables begins with the Dalits of India and extends to Muslims and Christians. That is a line the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu won`t cross despite their professions of love for the Dalits and hatred for the Manusmriti.

Notice how he could find time to put in a feeble response to my post #147 but couldn`t comment on my post #146. Does anybody still think that these BCs, OBCs and MBCs give a rat`s a$$ about the Dalits of India?

And the Pakistanis have been thinking that this guy has such a progressive outlook! What a bunch of dumb jerks!

Ref Inji-kari-kuzhambu #149

[#147 harimau
Thanks kindly. I`m flattered you value my opinions so much. I`m just a few characters on your monitor. Why are you bursting your arteries over me old man? Don`t you have some real demons to slay?
If you REALLY want to know, go back & read all my interacts or wait until a suitable article comes along where I may express myself or continue tilting at the windmills. The choice is entirely yours.]

I think it is time for you to go to the nearest mosque and get your dick chopped off.

Once you do that and advertise that fact on Chowk, your rating will climb back from its current two stars.

Ref jang #146

[soya

you have many posts where you show brahmins in poor light (and using rhetoric, not any logical thought)....]

Well, he actually believes that the man whose sole claim to fame is that he wrote the script for about 75 Tamil movies is the ``Elder Son of Mother Tamil`` whereas U V Swaminatha Iyer who rescued and published 125 ancient Tamil works has made no contributions to Tamil because he is a brahmin. The problem is he can`t actually handle the reality that he belongs to a group of people who have NO contributions to society, culture, art, science, etc., in over 2000 years.

[...in #77 and #49, (and others elsewhere) you shrunk hinduism to basic ill of casteism, i have not seen you express such a loathing towards other religions.]

This is exactly the same position as that of Elder Son of Mother Tamil-Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion. and his party members. But you won`t find these mufukkas willing to give their daughters or sons in marriage to a Muslim or Christian. Some people remain mleccha-s to even these guys! It is easy to talk equality but difficult to practice!

[....so, it appears to me that you have a major b!tch towards hindu and brahmin. since your posts seemed rhetorical (not logical or anecdotal), i seeked a different approach.]

He is just providing the English translation of the Collected Works of Thanthai Periyar, Annadurai and Karunanidhi. Don`t expect anything more from him.

[hope that helps.]

Nothing short of a lobotomy is likely to help.

#148
Jang, just as I thought. You`re blowing hot air. I`ll admit runofthemillbrahmin & runof themilltamil (highlighted for your benefit, looks like I have no one left to hate)certainly puts down harimau. Are you saying it`s the same as attacking hindus & brahmins? Harimau is such a big deal to you. No kidding!
I am certainly willing to share what little I know with people but I`m not going to be giving any quarter to those who have no willingness to learn and are interested only in verbal fisticuffs. When you engage me in a duel, you don`t set the rules. On the other hand, in this exchange between us you made a specific accusation and as proof you offer hem & haw. In case you haven`t realized this article is about caste relationships. I conjectured that casteism is a manifestation of religious divisions. The idea that hinduism is not a single religion is at least a hundred years old. For you to project your own insecurities on that take is rather telling. So let me ask you, why are you so damn insecure about your religion & why do you hate your mother?

Let me also ask you another question. Why are you such a casteist that you see everything in terms of caste? Why is it that anyone who makes a social commentary must belong to a certain group and subscribe to groupthink? I am really curious because as an Indian in the US you must have experienced racism - perhaps not outright bigotry but unenlightened stereotyping, most certainly. Where is the empathy?

#147 harimau
Thanks kindly. I`m flattered you value my opinions so much. I`m just a few characters on your monitor. Why are you bursting your arteries over me old man? Don`t you have some real demons to slay?
If you REALLY want to know, go back & read all my interacts or wait until a suitable article comes along where I may express myself or continue tilting at the windmills. The choice is entirely yours.

soya

you have many posts where you show brahmins in poor light (and using rhetoric, not any logical thought).... e.g. ``He is your run-of-the mill Brahmin,`` in #129. when sadna queried about your knowledge of brahmin persecution, you sounded very cagey..i mean you otherwise are full of sympathy for the opressed from all over the world, but you combated sadna`s queries (very well i must compliment you) with uncharacteric lack of sympathy.

in #77 and #49, (and others elsewhere) you shrunk hinduism to basic ill of casteism, i have not seen you express such a loathing towards other religions.

so, it appears to me that you have a major bitch towards hindu and brahmin. since your posts seemed rhetorical (not logical or anecdotal), i seeked a different approach.

hope that helps.

Let me suggest a quota system for the next 45 years and see how hard all the gravy-train-riding, circle-jerking mufukkas scream.

ALL professional education is to be reserved exclusively for SC/ST candidates. No BC, MBC, OBC is to be admitted to any professional course within India. That should produce about 500,000 engineers and at least 40,000 doctors a year, all of whom are either certified SC or ST.

The brahmins all over India will gladly accept such a policy just to show these mealy-mouthed hypocrites what it means to be at the receiving end of a quota system.

Ref Inji-kari-kuzhambu #145

[Remember, as a nonbrahmin I`m not as smart as you.]

How come? You claimed your parents are brahmins.

Just answer these three questions from #141.

Since you are well-equipped with logical answers, I would like clear-cut answers to the following questions:

1) As an agnostic, do you believe that only Hindu gods are false or do you consider Jehovah and Allah to be a fake too? What WOULD be the logically consistent answer here?

2) If by extension, Hindu scriptures are bogus, where does that place the Bible and the Koran?

3) If in Tamil Nadu one should perform rites of worship in Hindu temples in Tamil and not Sanskrit, should Arabic be banned from mosques?

#139 Jang
We may get somewhere in satisfying your curiosity if you`d explain to me specifically how you arrived at your question. If it`s based on anything I wrote, kindly cite it or paraphrase it with respect to the context. On the other hand, if it`s based on certain assumptions tell me what they are.
Your own bias is rather apparent when you say what Harimau Iyer is against is caste politics. He has made it clear that he thinks brahmins are specially endowed. He has been railing against nonbrahmins questioning their intelligence. If you think this has to do with politics you should examine your own biases which it seems to me tend to be casteist.

#141 unkalji
Remember, as a nonbrahmin I`m not as smart as you. Please take pity & summarize your points. Add bullet points if you can. Thanks.

#139
``I hate hindus & brahmins because I can`t stand any group of which I`m a de factomember. Happy? ``

soy,
this would be a good example of pure rhetoric, so no i am not happy. harimau has made it very clear what he hates about caste politics in TN. you have not said what is it that you specifically hate about the brahmin or the hinduism, except write re-gurgitated rhetoric. and kindly explain why you think my mother is a dog?

bbabu,

i have an explanation for the frustration of brahmin kids, they are set-up to be frustrated. they are highly encouraged to do good at school and get a professional degree as a meal-ticekt. clearly, not all make it. affirmative action is the simplest blame they can find. however, with the number of cheap college seats being so small in number, even without affirmative action, 99% of these ``frustrated`` kids will not get-in, and hence are still likely to be frustrated, however, the in-your-face affirmative actoin is the most logical blame.

i mean look at a typical gujju bania in mumbai, he is very happy to get his B.Com second class by the age of 20, busts his ass at some clothing store of a relative for peanuts for 2 years, and then starts some business by borrowing money at 22, makes no or little money for next 4 years while working 25 hours a day. by then he is somewhat established, most likely married with a couple of kids! compare to a brahmin boy who is mooching off his parents to get a silly masters degree..he is no where.

so i feel that the brahmins have set things up wrong for the new economy. they just cant afford to spend huge amount of money to get bad degrees..that was ok in 60`s but currently its better to spend the education money more wisely.

drlokraj # 135

``if you read Manu Samriti``

Why do you read Manu Samriti? If you yourself are not a dalit then the chances of your being a Hindu are almost nil.

``hinduism cannot be conceived without castes``

``Hinduism`` is being contantly reconceived. Again, if you yourself are not a dalit, then your belief system has no relationship to Hinduism as most of us understand it today.

``One cant convert to hinduism``

One most easily can. Let us know when you are ready :)

``Reservations may have given some economic/social status to a minority of Dalits,it has deepened the hatred in the minds of UC in the proportional extent.``

Implicating caste in discussing `hatred` is misleading. Positive and negative responses to job quotas have economic origins. No matter which country or culture you are in, they sound almost identical.

``expulsion `` of Budhism from India

Good you put that between quotes. Incisive minds do not pass off pure and clearly defamatory speculation as history. These belong in the realm of propaganda.


A general note, to understand Hinduism, talk to Hindus about what they believe. Don`t memorize old books. Books cannot capture the whole of God. When you develop this Hindu sensibility, you will feel free to accept or reject parts or entirety of any and all of those ancient books.

Ref Asli-Masanamuthu #129

[You know folks, something that has been under the surface for this long, I sort of suspected it, but it is quite clear to me now. Casteism apparently is par for the course amongst indians, even those who otherwise may not be bigoted. That`s why wholesale trashing of BCs, dalits, and what have you has been tolerated in this crowd.......

It also is amazing that the kind of attacks we see on the culture and intelligence of BCs & dalits that are tolerated here......]

We really don`t need any more proof that you are brain-dead but you seem to be hell-bent on providing evidence.

In all my writings, I have shown my willingness to accept a quota system for the Dalits. When I look at a Pallan behind a plow in the hot sun of Tamil Nadu, I recognize that I am what I am by the mere accident of birth and think ``But for the grace of God, there go I``. On the other hand, it is the middle castes who have hijacked the entitlement program and used it to enrich themselves. I did ask -- and you did not or could not answer -- how many Pallans and Paraiyans have actually been able to leave their back-breaking daily grind on the farm to become engineers and doctors under the current dispensation. Why don`t you answer that simple question?

I WILL attack the intelligence of anyone who actually uses his mental retardation as a justification for preferential treatment. It ought to be a cause for treatment, I agree, but at a health care facility.

If these self-same idiots then turn around and attack Vedic Hinduism, I have no problems pointing out that years of college education has not prevented them from erecting a temple to a movie actress of the Muslim persuasion. Nor would I hesitate to point out that small-pox is a disease caused by a virus, not by the anger of Mariamman and that it cannot be cured by tying `neem` leaves around the infected person.

When these idiots further ``reject`` the evil Aryan tyranny by naming their children Tamil Kudimagan, I do have a right to ask whether ``Kudimagan`` means citizen, drunkard or chut. I also ask why it is that these people in turn then name their own kids Lavanya, Akshaya, Poornima and similar Sanskrit names. What exactly is wrong with Mariattha, Esakki, Karuppayee, etc.? After all, these have been names in existence in Tamil Nadu much before Vedic Hindus arrived with their names such as Ramaswamy or Krishnamurthy and these people could have stayed with Masanamuthu and Sudalaikkannu... as at least some people have the sense to.

[Do you believe the superiority of brahmins is genetic asks someone as if bigotry could be reasoned with. You display so much knowledge someone else chimes in. If the roles were changed, if it were the stupid dirt-poor indians who were at the receiving end, we wouldn`t be reasoning with or complimenting the David Dukes.]

There is nothing remotely resembling David Duke`s philosophy if I ask exactly how many Nobel laureates in science or medicine your 54 years of affirmative action has produced. Your problem is that you cannot refute the fact that with about the same number of years of access to Western scientific education, Vedic Hindus have produced two Nobel Prize winners in Physics. Nor can you show a single instance of a scientific paper in a medical journal, a new medical procedure, etc., that can be traced to these quota candidates. Why is it that it has to be a Westerner who comes up with bone marrow transplant as a possible cure for aplastic anemia or leukemia? Why is it that it is one or more Westerners who receive the credit for discovering the HIV virus? Why is it that it is an Australian intern who discovers that gastric ulcers are caused by a bacteria and that a course of treatment with antibiotics can cure it, refuting the conventional wisdom that it is caused by stress, spicy food, blah, blah, blah? Why has there been not one scientific discovery worth recognition coming out of a half-century of increased public access to university education? For all your tall claims about electrical engineering education, why is it that you guys cannot produce a telephone handset on your own but have to import every single cell phone? Why is it that your primary exports are still raw materials such as iron ore and agricultural products? Why is it that Pepsi has to set up a potato chips manufacturing facility in Punjab? Don`t you fcukers have the skill to scale up the frying of vegetables to an inductrial scale?

For all your talk about IT and software exports, why is it that there is not one world-class product such as SAP or Oracle made in India? Why is it that you are willing to sell your code-coolies at rock-bottom prices if you have 95% of the world`s CMM Level 5 certified companies?

Why does it require a bogus MBA from one of the thousands of colleges to get a job answering phones at a call center, a job that is held in the US by high school drop-outs?

[The country is going to the dogs someone else says because talented people are not accomodated. Guess what, talented people of other disadvantaged groups had to suffer for a very long time.]

For a thousand years under the Muslims sultans, you just needed an Afghan heritage, belief in Allah and the willingness to plunder, murder and rape to become a jagirdar. But that is all forgotten as idiots like you, seeking allies in ripping off the public, offer sops in the form of quotas and Hajj subsidies to Muslims.

Can you tell us exactly what the Britisher found likable in a brahmin? The brahmin wouldn`t come close to him, won`t eat or drink with him, and had a horror of the English practice of mixing of the sexes and public displays of affection. On top of that, the brahmin strongly resisted all attempts at conversion to Christianity. So, exactly why do you continue to make the claim that somehow the brahmins were given preference by the British and it is this history of preference that has to be corrected by affirmative action?

[That couldn`t be of course because we all know brahmins to be specially gifted. It`s ironic that the defender and spokesman of tamil brahmins here is someone who is poorly equipped in logical skills - I present you Sriman Hariamau Iyer. He is your run-of-the mill Brahmin, run-of-the mill tamil who has taken up shadow boxing as a hobby.]

Sine you are well-equipped with logical answers, I would like clear-cut answers to the following questions:

1) As an agnostic, do you believe that only Hindu gods are false or do you consider Jehovah and Allah to be a fake too? What WOULD be the logically consistent answer here?

2) If by extension, Hindu scriptures are bogus, where does that place the Bible and the Koran?

3) If in Tamil Nadu one should perform rites of worship in Hindu temples in Tamil and not Sanskrit, should Arabic be banned from mosques?

[FWIW, I was at the wrong end of the quota system - you see my parents are brahmins.]

You know, some six months ago I suggested that the only way you can get out of the situation you have created for yourself is to claim that you are a brahmin. It took your dull brain all those months to finally make that claim! Tell us now that you are the descendant of the famous Appayya Deekshitar of the Rig Vedic tradition and Vishwamitra gotra!

[An interesting thing about TN villages is that perhaps because most of us were dirt poor we were sympathetic towards those who were poorer than us. We were poor but hopeful. The BCs & dalits had nothing to look forward to except for a life of hard labor. That is s.l.o.w.l.y changing now. We all somehow got by and I don`t think I have suffered terribly due to the quota system. My umpteen cousins & nephews & nieces in TN are doing just fine. They are not cribbing about it as much as the sadnas, sridhars or harimaus sitting far away writing much, comprehending little.]

Let ME tell you what happens to a poor brahmin. One of my classmates in high school was the son of a waiter in a local restaurant in our mofussil town. He couldn`t afford college though he was brilliant in his studies. He ended up taking the certificate exam (not the BT degree) to be a teacher and became one.

Another poor boy, the son of a widowed mother, was equally good at studies. He couldn`t go to college either. You see, his mother worked as a cook, preparing food on `shraddha` days at brahmin households who could afford to hire her. Since that job was not full-time, on most days she made idlies and sold them to people for breakfast... not in public because she didn`t have the skills for that but to households needing a quick breakfast because the housewife was ill or because visitors might have arrived. When I met my classmate some years later, I found out that he also had taken the Tamil pandit`s course and was teaching Tamil at a local school. A third, who couldn`t afford college either, was fortunate in that with the nationalization of the banks, he was able to start a small workshop making grills for windows, iron gates for houses, etc.

Please peddle the story that as a dirt-poor person yourself you sympathize with the BCs to somebody else. I know what happens to dirt-poor brahmins. If they are lucky, they have learnt a few mantras and are able to participate in a religious ceremony as one of several brahmins needed. They get a few rupees, a meal and perhaps a new dhoti which they are forced to sell back to a store at a deep discount to make a bit more money. The dregs of the poor brahmins end up being the ``sa-wundi`` (more correctly, ``sapindi``), shunned by all. (Since you claim to be a brahmin, tell us what a ``sapindi`` does!)

I know several dirt-poor brahmins who have had their sons admitted to engineering colleges because the Supreme Court stepped in and ruled about 15 years ago that 50% is indeed the limit on set-asides but the Tamil Nadu government side-stepped that by deliberately assigning these people to private engineering colleges with very high tuition whereas your BCs and MBCs ended up at Anna University or some other government college with el cheapo tuition. I know that these people had to literally go door to door every semester or even month seeking financial assistance to pay for their tuition. What you and the BCs can`t abide is the fact today these same people are highly-respected workers in the US, Europe or Australia.

I sympathize with the dalits because they are truly downtrodden. I have nothing but contempt for the so-called BCs and MBCs because they are nothing but leeches on society.

PS. Yesterday, ``The Hindu`` reported that the Nadar community wanted itself to be classified as an MBC. I presume they are now a BC but they know their chances will be better as an MBC. The question is: is this justified by history or is it just another attempt at grabbing hold of the economic pie to which they intend to contribute nothing?

soysauce #129

I agree with you. I can understand the frustrations of Brahmins from 1980 to early 1990s. There are plenty of engineering seats, jobs, emigration opportunities, business opportunities etc. Admission to a medical college is still hard. It is always hard !!!

soysauce
Um, your calling people `casteist` for talking about specifics in Tamil Nadu and your assuming that anyone who questions the party line is an opponent of OBC quotas, appear to be ideological compulsions with you.

If your compulsions are really not ideological, then better re-examine them, because look who else is talking about these specifics.

For example:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1719/17191150.htm

``G. Ramakrishnan, member, State secretariat of the Communist Party of India (Marxist), who has served on the committee appointed by the Tamil Nadu government to study the implementation of the Panchayat Act, said that the main purpose of the 73rd and 74th amendments to the Constitution was, besides devolving power to the three-tier local bodies, to empower women and Dalits by providing 33 per cent of elected posts to the former and proportional representation to the latter. But, he said, it was only in v illages where the democratic movement was strong and a consciousness about the rights of the under-privileged people existed, that the elected representatives were effective. In places where caste-related clashes had taken place or where caste feelings w ere dominant among the people, elected Dalit representatives, both men and women, were not able to assert themselves and function effectively.

R. Thirumavalavan, convener, Dalit Panthers of India (``Viduthalai Siruthaigal`` in Tamil), who has taken up the cause of Melavalavu village and has been instrumental in raising the memorial for the slain Dalits, told Frontline that the ruling Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK) was in the forefront in running down elected Dalit functionaries. ``


And when Dalits boycott elections in protest look who gets angry - the ruling party in 1998- wasn`t that DMK?:

``When the people of Gundupatti in Dindigul district tried this in the 1998 parliamentary elections, the administration and the ruling party did not take kindly to it and reacted ruthlessly (Frontline, April 17, 1998).``


(In May 2004, the violent reaction to the Dalit boycott of Lok Sabha elections came from local BJP workers. If I too used your insinuation mode of argument, I could accuse you of being a closet-Hindutva-vadi. Soooo useful that would be )
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2113/stories/20040702002104400.htm

#137 Jang, let`s see: why are you a casteist SOB - rhetoric, pontification
Why do you hate hindus & brahmins - curiosity. Anything else I missed? Why don`t you point to the standard generic labeling? Now I`m curious.
Have you ever tried to get the dirt on why harimau hates pretty much everyone else? Wouldn`t that be a more interesting curiosity question?
If you`re still curious, I hate hindus & brahmins because I can`t stand any group of which I`m a de factomember. Happy?

soy
ok so i get it, you want to stick to rhetoric, and generally pontificate .. sorry to bother you.

that i am a casteist is not very important.

the reason i asked you why you hate brahmins and hindus is becuase you made some rhetorical remarks, which divulged little substance. it all sounded like standard generic labeling. i wanted to understand if there is something more interesting, something born out of personal experience, something anecdotal. so i asked, because that is the beauty of interactice forum like this.

AND casteism IS rampant in india.

#134 Jang,
The point is that YOU are a casteist, don`t go blaming it on rampant casteism in India. Look at how you stereotyped me not based on anything I wrote - how you could conclude that I hate brahmins or hindus - but because I support the quota sytem. It is irrelevant who you thought I was. What is relevant is that you thought I must subscribe to a groupthink because you imagined I belonged to a certain group. THAT, dear sir, is what makes you a casteist. Whether you`re bothered by this fact or not is your business. I`m merely reporting.

#129 by soysauce on December 16, 2004 7:37pm PT
``You know folks, something that has been under the surface for this long, I sort of suspected it, but it is quite clear to me now. Casteism apparently is par for the course amongst indians, even those who otherwise may not be bigoted``

are bhai soya, we are not worthy, you are exalted highness. why are you acting so stupid? who said casteism is not rampant in india? now if you assume that to be true, its your problem, why blame others? ofcourse we are bigoted, and feel free to ask questions. so participate without acting to be above the frey, and calling others names like indian, and bigots (true or otherwise).

sincerely, garam-masala.

this is nothing more than an arbitrary inference.What do you mean by ``earning``in the context of crssing of castes?If you read Manu Samriti,it allows a male from higher caste to marry a female from a lower caste but does not allow vice versa.One cant convert to hinduism,he can only be a born hindu.If a muslim or a christian wants to convert to hinduism,what caste will be allotted to him?hinduism cannot be conceived without castes;Reservations may have given some economic/social status to a minority of Dalits,it has deepened the hatred in the minds of UC in the proportional extent.Its the constitution which does not allow the expressionof that hatred in same way as it was in the older days.I must say that with increase in literacy and urbanization-industrialization,the caste distinctions have cretainly got blurred to some extent in urban areas.The fact remains that the caste system has flourished because of the patronage it got from the state after the ``expulsion `` of Budhism from India and revivalism of hinduism after the fall of Maurya empire and it requires a strong state to eliminate casteism from India and reservation policy is not actually aimed at that.

re:#131 by harimau
I too was saddened by the death of MS Subbulakshmi. Often i have meditated in silence with her song in the background.
Not many people know that Lata Mangeshkar was an ardent fan of MS and would be seen sitting in the first row when latter sang at Shanmukhananda Hall in Bombay. Years later on the 50th anniversary of India becoming a Republic, GOI invited MS to sing in the Parliament, which she declined due to old age. Lata sang instead.
Truly a great singer and a great spiritual person.
One slight correction in your last post. Correct me if i am wrong but I believe it was Rukmini Arundale (and not Kamala Lakshman) who brought the dance from Devadasi tradition (where it was languishing for centuries) to popular practice. She also established Kalakshetra where classical dance training was imparted for the first time to the public.
Sridhar

soysauce #129
Kerala has had a lot of reservation in education and jobs for a long time, including for Muslims(which Tamil Nadu refuses to have). And for example, people I knew who were children of subsistence farmers were able to do law degrees because of reservations. So do not dare tell me I do not know the benefits of reservation.

Your accusation -that my questioning a political party/elected government/political ideology or my quoting from a Human Rights Watch/Home Ministry report on BC-on-Dalit violence is equivalent to my putting down BCs and Dalits- is quite untenable.

Political parties and elected governments are accountable and answerable for their ideologies/policies and for what happens under their watch. They can not claim eternal infallibility because Tamil Nadu is not a totalitarian state.

Ref jang #127

[thanks for the glimpse. i luv ``real`` postings.]

Some of the social changes that have taken place are also reflected in the way children are brought up.

It was common practice even in small towns in the 1910`s for children of all castes to attend school together. As my father returned from school everyday, it seems he would enter the house through the rear, draw water from the well for a quick bath, don dry clothes hanging in the clotheline and then enter the house. My grandfather was willing to let his children attend a common school but he would be damned if he let all that caste pollution inside his house!

From my very first day in school, none of this was asked of me. In fact, I only learnt about the old practive from a cousin much later in life, after I had finished all my education (except the crap I am learning from Soysauce aka Asli-Masanamuthu). This is just one example of how people were willing to adapt to changing circumstances. Nor did we live in ``agraharams`` (street of exclusively brahmin households).

My sister-in-law teaches at a national engineering institution. She was admonished by her neighbor (not a brahmin) for letting in a MBC (a real one, not one with just a certificate) colleague into her house when the MBC colleague came calling. Gutsy woman that she is, my sister-in-law looked her neighbor in the eye and said that if she were to follow the religious prescriptions exactly, she, the neighbor, won`t be allowed into her house either! This is the level of tolerance you see among the non-brahmins who show up on Chowk and claim to speak for equality! (Since they all live on campus housing, the neighbor is not just an ignorant villager, she is the wife of a colleague at the college!)

[i heard that madrasi (this as a general term) brhmins are absolutely taking over the classical music and dance, which only a few years back was a big no-no for brahmins (you know the devdasi tradition an all). can you folks comment?]

Classical (vocal) music has been pretty much the preserve of brahmins. There have been notable exceptions and there have been vocal musicians from other communities too though the appeal of classical music is rapidly diminishing among modern youngsters. Certain instruments were the specialty of certain groups. Nadaswaram (a shehnai-like instrument) and it accompanying percussion instrument the Thavil used to be played exclusively by the male descendants of devdasis while the female descendants took to the Bharatha Natyam dance.

It was the abolition of the devdasi system by legislative means in the 1930s that led to the decline of Bharatha Natyam as a dance form. It was a little brahmin girl named Kamala who took the dance world by storm in the early 1940s. She was featured prominently in the movies (just as a classical dancer for a dance number) and went abroad several times in the 1950s as part of India`s cultural exchanges with other countries. This set off a craze for dance and today you find people of all castes learning dance. If Kamala hadn`t taken up dance, you can be pretty sure the Love Queens would not be learning dance today because they have a greater aversion to anything remotely connected with the devdasi system than a brahmin -- who at least appreciates art -- would ever have.

[so soya, why do you hate brahmins and ``hindus`` of now?]

He still does because he is conditioned by the DK.DMK propaganda. You can see that in his responses to Sadna on this board. Just as Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion hires only brahmin lawyers, tax accountants and doctors for himself and his family, he recognizes quality but doesn`t want to acknowledge it!

In my post #92 on December 12, 2004, I asked

[... Would it {Vedic Hinduism} ever consider adding a fat movie actress to its list of deities?]

and answered it in the negative.

I must admit I was wrong.

There is one former movie actress whom Vedic Hindus consider to be the re-incarnation of Saraswathi, the Goddess of Learning. They did not build a temple to her but in their hearts they consider her equal to the gods.

I am referring to the legendary singer M. S. Subbulakshmi who passed away on Dec 11, 2004.

MS started her career in the music world and joined the movie business because of the great demand for actors who could sing in their own voice, there being no play-back singers a la Lata Mangeshkar in those days. MS acted only in 5 movies before she retired from the movies for ever and devoted the rest of her life to classical music, charitable causes and as the cultural ambassador of India. The entire earnings from her concert career went to charity and this was recognized when she was awarded the Magsaysay Award. Even when her husband`s business collapsed in 1977 and they had to sell their fine home in Chennai to pay off business debts, she continued to donate all her earnings to charity, preferring to live in a modest flat in Chennai. Her service to the cause of music and humanity was recognized when the Government of India conferred on her the title of Bharat Ratna, its greatest honor.

Born into a devdasi family (this was no secret), she married T. Sadasivam Iyer and served as his devoted wife, becoming more brahminical than one could get if one had been a brahmin by birth. Vedic Hindus had done exactly what they practiced millennia ago: they accepted her as a brahmin for her learning.

Crossing caste barriers is still possible in the 20th and 21st centuries as it was in early Vedic times. However, the conditions remain the same: you have to EARN it.

MS earned it easily.

The Love Queens and Tamil Citizens can`t because they will never try hard enough.

You know folks, something that has been under the surface for this long, I sort of suspected it, but it is quite clear to me now. Casteism apparently is par for the course amongst indians, even those who otherwise may not be bigoted. That`s why wholesale trashing of BCs, dalits, and what have you has been tolerated in this crowd. What is most amazing is the underlying belief in the various accusations, insinuations, and questioning that you defend the quota system only if it personally benefits you. Somehow indians wear blinkers when it comes to casteism where they see victims and victors, not a necessary social change in a resource-deprived country. Perhaps it is a reflection of the fact that indians here are ``making it`` and they identify more with the upper crust which they feel has been unduly punished. Either that or they have no clue.
It also is amazing that the kind of attacks we see on the culture and intelligence of BCs & dalits that are tolerated here. Do you believe the superiority of brahmins is genetic asks someone as if bigotry could be reasoned with. You display so much knowledge someone else chimes in. If the roles were changed, if it were the stupid dirt-poor indians who were at the receiving end, we wouldn`t be reasoning with or complimenting the David Dukes.
The country is going to the dogs someone else says because talented people are not accomodated. Guess what, talented people of other disadvantaged groups had to suffer for a very long time. That couldn`t be of course because we all know brahmins to be specially gifted. It`s ironic that the defender and spokesman of tamil brahmins here is someone who is poorly equipped in logical skills - I present you Sriman Hariamau Iyer. He is your run-of-the mill Brahmin, run-of-the mill tamil who has taken up shadow boxing as a hobby.

FWIW, I was at the wrong end of the quota system - you see my parents are brahmins. An interesting thing about TN villages is that perhaps because most of us were dirt poor we were sympathetic towards those who were poorer than us. We were poor but hopeful. The BCs & dalits had nothing to look forward to except for a life of hard labor. That is s.l.o.w.l.y changing now. We all somehow got by and I don`t think I have suffered terribly due to the quota system. My umpteen cousins & nephews & nieces in TN are doing just fine. They are not cribbing about it as much as the sadnas, sridhars or harimaus sitting far away writing much, comprehending little.

soysauce #126
``Either you`re dissembling or you have really poor writing skills. You have broken down your original point into two parts which changes the meaning completely.``

Um, not really. You appear to have poor reading and comprehension skills. I wrote in #99 ``Am also still unable to understand why after 69% reservation for `backward` castes and 35 odd years of non-Brahmin DMK/AIADMK rule, 3-4% Brahmins are still held responsible for `oppression` of other castes. Feel free to say why you think otherwise.``

If you weren`t so paranoid, it would be clear from my first post onward that my intention is to understand what role DMK/AIADMK rule and affirmative action have had on AIADMK/DMK`s own longstanding complaint about Brahmin oppression.


``Your q. 2 doesn`t make any sense. Are brahmins significant socially - amongst themselves they certainly are as they always have been.``


I did not ask what Brahmins think. I was asking what you think. Ref above.


``If I have been a little harsh in this little debate it`s partly because you have been putting questions to me based on some silly assumptions about me and certainly not based on anything I have said myself.``

Er, you haven`t been harsh, you have been much less than straightforward. You harp on one sentence to make it about me personally so you can avoid addressing the main issue. The only assumption I made was that you are a Tamilian. Any other Tamilian also could have answered. Clearly you lack the requisite objectivity to do so.

The apparent reason is you are trying to pretend that the last 80 years and counting of explicitly anti-Brahmin rhetoric and politics never happened. I cannot pretend it did not happen and I want to know how much longer such anti-Brahmin politics and rhetoric will continue. Particularly since such politics is irrelevant to `backward` castes own behaviour to castes lower than themselves, that ought to be good reason to re-examine it. Stick to the single issue anti-brahmin rhetoric about 3-4% of your population for eternity and 18% Dalits will automatically stop being persecuted by 30% OBCs in course of time is a stupid line of thinking. But as I said, you clearly lack the requisite objectivity to address this issue.

--

General comment : Apparently identity politics is like a deep pit, and once people fall into it, they are beyond the reach of common sense and reason, even after such politics has mostly achieved its original purpose of getting a people their due rights. It is possible that with identity politics being the end and not the means, India will just become a series of deep pits with Indians lying divided in them, out of reach of reason and each other. The thing to see if the evolution of Dalit politics will be any different.

#123 by harimau

thanks for the glimpse. i luv ``real`` postings. i was surprised to hear that Iyers keep Ekadashi..is it not a Vaishnava thingy?

i thought mani shankar iyer is a nominee to the upper house and not an MP.

i heard that madrasi (this as a general term) brhmins are absolutely taking over the classical music and dance, which only a few years back was a big no-no for brahmins (you know the devdasi tradition an all). can you folks comment?

so soya, why do you hate brahmins and ``hindus`` of now?

#124 sadna
Either you`re dissembling or you have really poor writing skills. You have broken down your original point into two parts which changes the meaning completely. Earlier you were talking about the ``missing brahmins`` and implying some kind of ``ethnic`` cleansing and now you`re backpedaling and making a very trivial point that 3 - 4% is insignificant.
Your q. 2 doesn`t make any sense. Are brahmins significant socially - amongst themselves they certainly are as they always have been.
On q. 3 power dynamics has indeed shifted away from higher castes (not just brahmins). However, except in a few cases, this does not mean that brahmins have been victimized or purged (there you go, Jang). (Mani Shankar Aiyer, a non-Tamil for all practical purposes and with a red-flag last name, got elected to the Parliament not too long ago.) It`s a natural result of the republican system that we have. Is there caste politics in TN? Absolutely. The grand shift has been that someone else is the ``brahmin`` now in terms of political power. But I do believe that as far as economic and educational opportunities are concerned there is more equality, thanks to the quota system (I agree with bbabu). Dalits and BCs still lag behind because they started with a huge handicap.
If I have been a little harsh in this little debate it`s partly because you have been putting questions to me based on some silly assumptions about me and certainly not based on anything I have said myself.

soysauce #120
I already conceded the numerical reduction part and yet you harp on that while avoiding all questions related to everything else in that sentence or any other? Why not simply address the straightforward issues instead of taking a convoluted detour into your paranoid fantasies?

As I said ``even if we agree to disagree on ``reduce`` due to migration``.

So let us say for purposes of this argument, Brahmins in TN are not reduced numerically at all for any reason whatsoever.

( meaning for purposes of this argument assume that I never talked to anyone anytime ever in my life on this subject nor did the USIS ever publish any speculative reasons for its Chennai consulate getting the largest number of visa applications nor did anyone ever leave TN for any reason at all).

So now tell me for my own information
1. Are Brahmins numerically insignificant at 3-4% or not?
2. Have Brahmins been reduced to insignificance politically and socially?
3. After 69% reservations and 35+ years of nonBrahmin DMK/AIADMK, are Brahmins still the primary `oppressors` of other castes and Dalits in Tamil Nadu?

Kindly realise, even if you disagree with me vehemently on everything, you should be willing to offer me some information for me to understand the issues better. I have repeatedly asked you to disagree and tell me why you disagree on the above questions 1, 2, 3.

soya

dharavi is HUGE bussiness, and the gang rivalry there is very cosmo. dombivli is more interesting..it was once an affordable bedroom community for white-caller, relatively docile marathis (bank worker etc). the local agri community (original land-owners) are the dadas. the new influx of tamils is causing some tensions. i cant tell if the tamils are brahmin or not, but they are toughies. they clash with the locals and dont take any shit. i have witnessed some good fights in a local train bet an agri and a tamil, fighting it out in bad mubai hindi, progressing to fists and later knives, with further promise of retaliation.

soya, so have brahmins been purged out of civil service jobs in TN or not? how about private sector like TVS, TTK etc?

soysauce #120
sadna #119

Brahmins in Tamilnadu have no economic influence because they do not start businesses and they do not own any prime farmland. TVS Group is an exception on the business side. Most of your typical South Indian veggie hotels are not owned by Brahmins. The increase in engineering and (now medical) colleges have removed any excuse for caste based reservations. Reservations impacted 15 years of Brahmin youth (1980-1995). There are no excuses for the current crop of kids.

re:#116 by soysauce
``Brahmins have been migrating since before Partition (Professor Chandrasekhar was born in Lahore``
This guy is now stretching it!
Being born in a place is not same as migrating. I was born in Delhi though i am a Tamilian and have now migrated to USA. Get it, dude?
I personally know a brilliant doctor working in AIIMS who migrated from Madras in early 80s because he saw no scope there (being a brahmin). His own sister could not get admission to a medical college due to her caste. This guy migrated to Delhi, got into medical college through a fair competition and is now a cardiologist at AIIMS. I need no further proof than this.
There is absolutely no doubt that a kind of reverse discrimination is happening in Tamil Nadu. I saw students who were from the ``reserved category`` with abysmal knowledge of Medicine getiing an MD seat. Tamil Nadu will pay the price for this stupidity one day.
Sridhar

Ref jang #117

[DM .. here is my butt-in

.....as a brahmin, you are told from day one that you are special, you go thru innumerable rituals from the thread ceremony to a daily evening-morning rituals which include rote learning of shlokas (and arithmatic tables), showers, then for the really lucky you get a head-shave thus dumping you to the nerd-corner at school (at least untill the hair grow back).]

Nobody in my family ever told me I was special because of my brahmin birth. I was special to my parents as were my siblings for just being their children. No more, no less.

The only daily rituals were the lighting of the lamp in the niche maintained for pictures of Hindu gods in the morning as well as in the evening. None in the family performed the `sandhya vandanam` except those youngsters just invested with the sacred thread and that too for perhaps a year or two to memorize the mantras. The other rituals were simply observances of Ganesh Chaturthi, Navratri, Sankaranthi, Diwali and New Year`s Day, with the usual monthly festival to either of Rama, Krishna, Kartikeya or some other god. The thing special about these days were that these were the days a sweet dish would be prepared, which is a treat for us kids. However, we were also not allowed to touch any of these until they were offered to the gods first. In many instances, the puja on these days might be performed by just the women with a priest coming in only on certain occasions. There were rather elaborate observances of the shraddha ceremony honoring ancestors once a year.

We also watched as the elderly observed fast on Ekadasi day (twice a month) following it with a spartan meal the next day. We also learnt to live by rules: do not touch your elders, do not touch anyone who has taken his bath, do not touch the food (I was never allowed to help myself to the food, I was always served by a female relative), segregate women during their periods, stay away from new mothers for 40 days of ritual pollution, etc., etc., etc. The level of untouchability within the household would not be believed by all these folks complaining about untouchability!

Children were taught shlokas as prayers but it was the girls who were required to recite them rather than the boys. Girls were taught music if the parents could afford lessons and a music teacher was available. The rest of us absorbed what we could by listening as the girls were taught or practiced their lessons.

[... you are asked to speak ``clean`` language and not the colloquail one,...]

True. That is why we are the only ones who can say ``Thamizh`` correctly in all of Tamil Nadu and not the Masanamuthus.

[... you have tons of relatives with scholarship and achievement who you are expected to emulate,...]

Not in my case. We still have relatives by the dozens who have just a high school education and a clerical job.

[... and easy money etc. is not praised.]

Work, education and honesty are valued higher than money.

[... a constant thread is that you are ``special`` due to birth (a chosen people?), that you trace your ancestry to some ancient sage Vasishta..]

The reason to trace your ancestry to some rishi is to ensure that you don`t marry within your gotra.

[tamils have really kept up with this. you go to the temple and they ask whats your gotra, and nakshatra etc. when they convey your regards to the gods. so their is a whole thing about pride being built up over generations.]

The same thing is asked of every single person. Everyone knows what nakshatra (star) he was born under. The Masanamuthus have been given/chosen for themselves gotras so they don`t have a problem. In fact, while the brahmins have their gotras tied to some ancient rishi, the gotras of the Masanamuthus are Siva, Muruga, etc. I presume gods still outrank rishis!

[so my guess is dont bother with some synthetic dravid pride, specially when it means rejecting your enviromental culture, its ridiculous. classical cuture is always maintained by the elites in the society, nothing wrong with that, and no need to reject it for some marxist ideas. just get busy doing well.]

The people who rival brahmins in their practices and piety are the Pillais as I mentioned before. They were not doing it to ape the brahmins., they maintained the tradition of worship in Tamil and were the custodians of secular and religious Tamil literature for millennia and were proud of their role.

The real trouble is that the rest of the Masanamuthus have been told by propagandists that they cannot compete on an equal footing. Instead of asking whether this is impugning their intelligence, the Masanamuthus have decided that it is so much easier to jump on the gravy train rather than work to their fullest potential.

As far as I can see there are a couple of castes who take pride in doing a good job. The first consists of the Pallans and the Paraiyans who actually work the fields. The other is the barber who trims your hair. You never see anyone coming back with a bad haircut from a barber though results from the modern ``beauty parlors`` is a different story! The rest of the Masanamuthus are leeches on society feeding on the hard work of the farm workers.

#119 sadna
Here`s your statement:
btw, it is a bit surprising that after so many years of `lower caste` rule in Tamil Nadu with Brahmins reduced to insignificance, numerically, politically and socially,

Seems to me that brahmins reduced to insginificance (numerically no less not proportionally which is a very strong statement) means exactly that. That they were significant numerically before. Resorting to anecdotal arguments on sensitive issues is what hindutvavadis have been doing. Your style of argument is exactly that.
If brahmins are 3 - 4% of the 62-odd million tamils, that is about 2 million. You are arguing that in absolute terms ( reduced to insignificance numerically ) the number of brahmins has come down. That is, it was much greater than 2 million before. What`s your evidence? You heard that somewhere! It must be so because that`s the only thing that makes sense in view of the quota system, etc. Drats, this is worse than hindutvavadi logic!
While you apparently support the reservation system you also are fond of using incendiary language such as they have been reduced to small numbers. With the reservation system, given that there were a limited number of seats, some gain some lose. The alternatives are (1) not to have a quota system, or (2) increase the number of colleges, etc. much faster than increase in population. (2) would have been an option only if there were sufficient resources.
A student who goes elsewhere to get education because of the quota system is not a victim. He or she had the option of joining a lesser college or get a degree that has no pecuniary value. Instead he or she looks for better opportunities. Not much different than the plane loads of students who come to this country as educational refugees. Lack of opportunities is not someone else`s crime although you make it sound like it was. The Mughals could not continue to lord it over everyone else does not make them victims.
Where I`m coming from you can have no clue.

soysauce #116
Calling me Hindutva-vadi is what loser Pakis and their loser Indian friends do. Congratulations on joining the loser club.

Calling me `Hindutva-vadi` for disputing DMK/AIADMK conventional wisdom on Brahmins does not make for convincing argument for a non-party-affiliated person like me, it only reveals to me where you are coming from.

Since I have disputed typical Hindutva-vadi type arguments on Muslim population figures and other issues on this and other forums, it becomes clear to me that you are a typical chowk/sulekha type loser who resorts to labelling when they have no arguments to offer.

Apart from implying I am a liar though I clearly stated what I based my assertions on(which you refused to acknowledge, forget about disagreeing ), do you have any other basis for your stance that Brahmins have not ``reduced` to insignificant numbers in TN ?

Do you have any basis for disputing the fact that government policies were designed explicitly to reduce their share in jobs and education which is why many had to seek education and jobs elsewhere? Noone went around in Kerala targeting a single community like the politics and policies of TN have targetted Brahmins.

Even if we agree to disgree on `reduced` being caused by migration, why haven`t you at least explained why you disagree that Brahmins are numerically insignificant at 3-4% of the Tamil Nadu population? What %age is numerically insignificant in your estimation?

Do you agree or disagree that 69% reservation and 35 years of nonBrahmin DMK/AIADMK rule + 3-4% population means Brahmins are no longer in a position to `oppress` other castes?

I can`t call your arguments absurd because you make none.

.

#115 sadna
You make an assertion and I ought to disprove it! Since you claim the 3 - 4 % number is reduced , meaning that it was higher before, tell me what it was, when it was, and where you got the information from. Why do you sound like a hindutvavadi arguing population statistics? Hmmm?
Your second assertion was that migration was EXPLICITLY because of government policies discriminating against them. Where is the proof of this other than hearsay? Did you migrate because of discrimination? Did the backward caste tamils who migrated to singapore, and malaysia starting in the 50s through the 80s do so because of discrimination. Brahmins have been migrating since before Partition (Professor Chandrasekhar was born in Lahore). (I can hear some of them saying since I cannot become a temple priest I might as well join the central government and become an officer in XYZpur!) Your arguments are absurd.

DM .. here is my butt-in

i think eliticism cannot be scaled. i mean if everyone is elite, then what is there to be proud of? as a brahmin, you are told from day one that you are special, you go thru innumerable rituals from the thread ceremony to a daily evening-morning rituals which include rote learning of shlokas (and arithmatic tables), showers, then for the really lucky you get a head-shave thus dumping you to the nerd-corner at school (at least untill the hair grow back). you are asked to speak ``clean`` language and not the colloquail one, you have tons of relatives with scholarship and achievement who you are expected to emulate, and easy money etc. is not praised. a constant thread is that you are ``special`` due to birth (a chosen people?), that you trace your ancestry to some ancient sage Vasishta..

tamils have really kept up with this. you go to the temple and they ask whats your gotra, and nakshatra etc. when they convey your regards to the gods. so their is a whole thing about pride being built up over generations.

so my guess is dont bother with some synthetic dravid pride, specially when it means rejecting your enviromental culture, its ridiculous. classical cuture is always maintained by the elites in the society, nothing wrong with that, and no need to reject it for some marxist ideas. just get busy doing well.

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soysauce #106
``I hope you`ll agree that there is no evidence of any sort that brahmins have been reduced to insignificance numerically. ``

Sorry, I can not. You have offered no basis for asserting that Brahmin population numbers have not reduced. Nor do you explain why at 3-4% their numbers are still significant.

And since migration of Brahmins was explicitly because of government policies discriminating against them, their migration is not the same as migration of Mallus who were all equally affected by lack of employment in Kerala.


As for your point about Dalits and different mythologies, different religions, as I said before that might be true of many Dalit communities, but it does not apply to all Dalit communities all over India. In Kerala for instance, there has been Sankritization of Dalits too. Also, delving into history has shown that some present-day Dalit communities were formerly savarna communities who were `outcasted` after they were defeated in war - in other words not all Dalits are direct descendents of the indigenous pre-Hindu communities.

Also when I went looking for news of Dalit violence in Tamil Nadu, in a recent episode(in May 2004) of violence in a village in Coimbatore district, one reason for friction listed was refusal of the local community to allow Dalits to enter the local Hindu temple which was run by the Hindu endowment trust.

``on the face of it would imply that those who are metaphorically at the bottom wish to move to the top.``
I don`t think Sanksritisation in independent India necessarily implies that. After attaining social acceptance and political power, position in caste heirarchy means nothing as you say.

I believe it is for every subgroup of Dalits to themselves decide which route is best for their this, whether outside of Hinduism or within Hinduism. I do not see any downside to Hindu society being forced to make Dalits welcome within Hindu society - which is the main culprit in their situation.

Ref M.B.Z.Isphahani #110

[...I would build a mixed living complex to give away free a condominium
Luxurious 500 x 4 bedroom apartment complex worth $350,000 (Rs 1,750,000)
each with huge garden tennis court ,pool ,gym ,day care to poorest but highly
educated family one from every caste creed religion including reverend,priest
imam gurus.

I wonder if my 500 give away free luxury apartments will remain vacant if caste
and religion mixed?]

So, Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion decided to build ``Equality Townships`` in Tamil Nadu where in the same area people of all castes will live together. Government money was spent in creating this ``Samatthuva Purams`` in various villages at least in his home district of Thanjavur/Tiruvarur.

The thugs who call themselves OBCs occupied almost all of these using their political connections and the Dalits are still living in their huts.

So, the answer is: the apartments will not remain vacant. They will be occupied by those with the most clout who are not the Dalits.

Are you happy that somebody has already tried your suggestions and the results are identical to the results of 54 years of affirmative action in India?

harimou:

It is evident that you have a tremendous pride in tamil brahmins - a pride which, I might add, is shared by many non-brahmins as well. My question to you is this: do you think that the brahmins are superior because of their genes or because of the deeply ingrained ethics of hard work and discipline instilled in them by their parents and the brahmin society in which they live? If you think that it is the former, i.e., genetic, I have no further question. But if you think that it is largely the latter, do you have any prescription about how the same kind of discipline, hard work and ambition can be brought into the non-brahmin tamil society?

Ref sadna #99

When talking to Asli-Masanamuthu aka Soysauce, please do not quote any reports from any human rights organizations about the organized thuggery of the BCs against Dalits. He cannot think beyond the cliches of the DK and the DMK. Any attempt to make him think on his own is likely to result in that malady uniquely seen only in Tamil movies called ``moolaik kodhippu`` (literally, ``Boiling brain``).

Soysauce actually believes that ``Boiling Brain`` is a real medical condition. In his case, his brain has already been fried by the DK propaganda.

re: Sadna`s last post
``Am also still unable to understand why after 69% reservation for `backward` castes and 35 odd years of non-Brahmin DMK/AIADMK rule, 3-4% Brahmins are still held responsible for `oppression` of other castes. Feel free to say why you think otherwise. ``
Well said, Sadna.
You can also ask the question: why there is something like a ``Forward Caste`` and a ``Backward caste`` after 35 years of DMK (mis)rule?
The answer is simple: this is their bread and butter. They need to keep showing that they are pro-backward class (so, it makes eminent sense to keep them backward!) in order to garner votes during elections.
One other thing is worth noting. Brahmins never resisted social change in Tamil Nadu. I believe Rajaji (as the CM of Congress govt in the 30s) initiated temple reforms that allowed low caste to enter temples. When the brahmin clout diminished and their supremacy was eclipsed by political ascendance of the DMK party, brahmins quietly moved aside and did not resist. This is in striking contrast to what is happening today in Bihar, UP, where caste-based clashes are a daily occurrance and higher castes are resisting any social change with violence.
Sridhar

Ref jang #102

[#99 by sadna

waat..sasikala is a thevar? i thought she is a kallan! (like i care)]

Kallan is a sub-sect within the Thevar community which sometimes calls itself the ``Mukkulatthor`` (Three castes). Thus, Sasikala is both a Kallan and a Thevar.

[anyways, aidmk is kind of not REAL dravid, dmk is the real one. i am also interested in reading soyas response.]

Don`t wait for Asli-Masanamuthu`s writings which are regurgitations from Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion. Get a copy of ``Castes and Tribes of Southern India``. I am yet to find a single caste native to Tamil Nadu except the Dalits. The DMK amd ADMK are practically interchangeable. It is the Telugu-speaking Reddy`s and Naidu`s, the Kannada-speaking Gounder`s, who simply name their daughters Love Queen and their sons Tamil Drunkard (Tamil Kudi Magan) to pretend to be of Tamil ancestry much like Sasikala was given a Sanskrit name that implies she might be of higher caste.

[ i thought that all tamils are brahmins, and later in my life was surprised to find that most tamils eat meat. most of my tamil classmates in college were brahmins, except some in thru affirmative action, who were the cool ones with relatives in military (EME) and got us cheap booze.]

Yep, long ago, Tamil brahmins started leaving Tamil Nadu in droves to Bombay, Calcutta and Delhi. You are right about them NOT being the affirmative action folks in college.

[interestingly, tamilnadu seems to have brahmins but no other ``Upper Class``!]

There is actually another caste called the Pillais who are classified as forward in Tamil Nadu. The Pillais are universally Shaivites, extremely religious, and maintain the same level of scholarship, this time in Tamil, as the brahmins did in both Sanskrit and Tamil. What Asli-Masanamuthu cannot abide is the fact that the only source for Tamil palm-leaf manuscripts used to be Tamil poets of the Pillai castes or the monasteries where the monks would be recruited from among the Pillais (the various ``adheenams``). And it was Dr. U. V. Swaminatha Iyer who went from village to village, knocking on doors to locate these manuscripts, who then analyzed the manuscripts, corrected any transcription errors by reconciling the multiple versions he found, wrote the analytical commentary on them, raised funds for their publication, and successfully brought out the definitive editions on paper. It was thus that four of the five great epic poems that Tamils are justly proud of was saved from the ravages of time and termites. Unfortunately, the fifth, that UV Swaminatha Iyer had held in his hands only 120 years back but returned to the owners because he didn`t have the time to devote to it, was never found again.

Despite his love of the Tamil language, Dr. Swaminatha Iyer did not name his children Tamil King or Love Queen. On the other hand, among the Masanamuthus there is a movie actor named Silambarasan (``King of Silappadhikaram``, Silappadhikaram being one of the five major Tamil epics) whose name is shortened to ``Chimp``. This Chimp has a brother named Kuralarasan (``King of Tirukkural``, Torukkural being a collection of poems) who wants to break into the movies. The only diminutive I can think of for Kuralaran is ``Kurangu`` which means monkey. Thus you can see the travesty of history whereby the Masanamuthus who were burning up ancient palm-leaf manuscripts for fuel are calling themselves Tamil King and Love Queen whereas the ONLY two castes that served the Tamil language are demonized in today`s Tamil Nadu.

Truly, the ``Dravidians`` of Tamil Nadu can successfully organize only circle-jerks.

Jang,
Aren`t the Dharavi gangs controlled by Tamils?

Ref dost-mittar #94

[harimou#97:

Nearly half a century ago, Prof. M.N. Srinivas documented the phenomenon of sanskritisation in the south, whereby a number of upwardly mobil lower-castes (what you call masanmathus) imitated upper caste social norms (such as shunning meat and wearing sacred threads) to successully seek acceptance as upper castes. I was wondering if this phenomenon came to an end with the coming to power of the dravidian parties, especially since the upper castes themselves seem to be quite busy desankritising themselves.]

I have taken up the book ``The Northern Nadars of Tamil Nadu: On Indian Caste in the Process of Change`` by Dennis Templeman in order to provide a detailed reply to you. Unfortunately, the music season in Chennai is interfering with the reading of this book so you will have to bear with me for a while. Even if this board goes off the front page, you will get your reply.

[Serious reply, please!]

ALL my replies are serious. It is just that they contain unpalatable truths about Islamic thugs, Tamil politicians, Masanamuthus pretending to be egalitarians, etc. In general, I am carrying on a lone battle against hypocrisy.

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Sadna,
I hope you`ll agree that there is no evidence of any sort that brahmins have been reduced to insignificance numerically. Migrating is not the same as fleeing. Migrants typically return to their native lands periodically, have families there and so on. There are a large number of malayalees all over the place. Nobody drove them out except for lack of opportunities. Those who are so equipped migrate. That tells nothing.
I don`t believe I have said anything vis-a-vis Jayalalitha & the dalits. I was making a historical point and I did say that with social and political shifts the ground reality with regard to discrimination also is changing.
To return to the meta-topic, the so-called hierarchical system of hinduism, on the face of it would imply that those who are metaphorically at the bottom wish to move to the top. This in essence also was M.N. Srinivas`s thesis that DMji alluded to. I don`t believe this is true. What the disadvantaged want is not to be at the top of the caste hierarchy since they well know that what holds the key is political power. Once they have that power there is no need to ``move up.`` They are fine in their caste skin. This I think is similar to what happens in the social intercourse of different religions. Moreover, their cosmology is different, their gods are different, their myths are different, etc. which also makes me think of caste divides more as religious divides. There`s something like a reverse-sanskritization going on with increasing number of brahmin youth starting to eat meat. Westernization has pushed sanskritization (if it was at all there) out of the picture.
It is a fact of life that yesterday`s oppressed are tomorrow`s oppressors. What we need to have is a system of equality that protects the rights of minorities regardless of who`s in power. This process will take a few more decades. Look at how long it took the US to start treating (at least on paper) the descendents of slaves and women as equal to the majority males.

jang #102

The same HRW report says ``According to Dr. Krishnaswamy, though “atrocities against Dalits were institutionalised during the previous AIADMK regime,” a 1996 shift in political power to the DMK party, led by M. Karunanidhi, did not result in a “change in the behaviour of the police.”

My assertion is merely this, that the virulent anti-Brahminism of these two parties is no longer sufficient or even relevant to address current burning issues because Brahmins are no longer the primary actors. Anyone is free to challenge this assertion, but simply questioning my intentions in making this assertion will not suffice.

soysauce #103
``When you say brahmins have been reduced to insignificant numbers in TN you obviously mean their share of the population was much higher than the present 3 - 4%. I`d like to see the evidence. That you have been hearing of brahmin migration is not sufficient. You probably meant it as a rhetorical flourish but it has NO basis in fact.``

Now who is ascribing motives and setting up a strawman? I did not say their share of population was earlier larger than 3-4%, I said that is their %age now and that they have been migrating out. I was not making a rhetorical flourish, living in S. India, I have heard first and second hand accounts of such migration all my life. I have also heard first hand for instance about problems that `forward castes` face in getting degree or post-graduate admission in TN. I also remember seeing, in the pre-IT boom period, the US consulate in Madras(then) citing the largest visa-granted figures among all consulates/embassies in India and the lack of opportunity for the educated Brahmin community being cited as a possible reason by the US agency reporting these figures.

I am surprised you don`t see the point of rest of my post because it was yourself who first brought in Brahminism and then the Brahmin origins of Jayalalitha in context of Dalit or lower caste rights in Tamil Nadu and I replied to you on those points.

Take care that you do not end up as intolerant to dissent with your fundamental assumptions as harimau seems to be. (What is harimau`s relevance to a discussion between myself and you is unclear to me, I am only replying to your bringing him up. He has been quite as abusive to me on occasion with as little basis, but you unfortunately seem to be his regular and favored target).

#99 by sadna

waat..sasikala is a thevar? i thought she is a kallan! (like i care)

anyways, aidmk is kind of not REAL dravid, dmk is the real one. i am also interested in reading soyas response.

for a mumbaiyya, madrasis have been a big mystery. the tamils we came across in Matunga and Chembur (tamil muhallas) i presume were brahmins. they were mostly white-collared, vegetarian, and for some reason ALWAYS spoke english, although in the distinctive yell-yum-yen accent. They had their institutions like the SIES (Sambhar Idly Education Society) which were highly regarded for good and cheap schooling in vernacular and english media. They also had a dominant presense in cutural scene centred around Matunga Cultural and Shanmukhananda Hall, where i did suffer thru innumerable padams, and wailing-veenas. i thought that all tamils are brahmins, and later in my life was surprised to find that most tamils eat meat. most of my tamil classmates in college were brahmins, except some in thru affirmative action, who were the cool ones with relatives in military (EME) and got us cheap booze. brahmins were huge bores and whiners. interestingly, tamilnadu seems to have brahmins but no other ``Upper Class``!

mallyalis were mostly typist, nurses and then they disappeared ..i think to gulf! they were very clanish, like a secret society, with no visible institutions.

andhras were the constrution labour, kadias (masons) etc. and offcourse the hydrabadi musalmans speaking deccani urdu.

kannadas were mixed and separate. there were the konkanis, the ``dingos`` (anglos), tullus and shettys runnning hotels and mafias. did not notice much brahmin presense here, except perhaps some of the konkani places like.

now the new tamil adda is out of mumbai in dombivali.

#99 sadna
When you say brahmins have been reduced to insignificant numbers in TN you obviously mean their share of the population was much higher than the present 3 - 4%. I`d like to see the evidence. That you have been hearing of brahmin migration is not sufficient. You probably meant it as a rhetorical flourish but it has NO basis in fact. It`s like the hindutvavadis claiming muslim population to be REALLY 25%. There is really a huge reverse migration into TN as export-related industries have grown.
As for the rest of your post, I don`t get the point of it. I don`t believe I have claimed brahmins have attacked dalits. In my 3 or so years on Chowk, no one has claimed this or anything close to this except for the apparitions that speak to Harimau Iyer. Why are you setting up strawmen?

Ref jang #97

princely states, maharajas and small-time jagirdars often had allocations for poor brahmin kids [to come and study in the durbar town. kids would live in poverty and literally ``beg`` for their lunch, (typically a brahmin boy would go to a different house for lunch, or go get roti from one dal from other etc) and spartan dorms with yet more spartan dinner would be provided by the Jajman king, in addition to the school. king or prince personally looked into the affairs of these schools, insisted on excercise etc. kind of like the modern day madrassas, except the kids got normal education. then for special occasions kids would get some dinner with some sweet dish.

i have listened to some aged relatives talk of attending such schools in the 1920s.. they absolutely hated it, but got them the education otherwise impossible. that was some affirmative action.]

That might have been done by the maharajas to earn some merit for afterlife. In the south, it wasn`t uncommon for orphaned boys and girls to be helped in this manner by other folks. While someone who lost both his parents would be shunned as a harbinger of bad luck, the community would feed the child, each household making available one meal. The boy or girl would sleep on the porch of a house or in the halls of the local temple. It was a hard life. I have met one man whose father had to go through this when he lost both his parents and had no other family to talk of. Today, that son is well off living in Singapore. People would envy his lifestyle but only when one digs deeper one finds out how he came up in life and how hard his own childhood was.

Ref Asli-Masanamuthu #96

[Your claim that brahmins have been reduced to insignificance numerically is plain wrong. Had there been an ``ethnic`` cleansing of the sort you`re alleging we all would have heard about it.]

First of all, they don;t HAVE to be reduced. Their share of the population is 3%. What share would you be happy with, maybe 0%, excpt for those women willing to sell themselves to the family of Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion?

[Politically, as Harimau Iyer will tell you, a brahmin is the chief minister.]

Yes, she is. And why? Because the only things the Masanamuthus can organize successfully is a) protection rackets and b) circle jerks.

You fcukers have been claiming brahmin domination of Tamil Nadu and whom did you unseat in 1867? The party of Kamaraj Nadar. Yep, Nadar, one of the lowest castes before you get to Dalits. Who did you replace that with? Annadurai Mudaliar, who ranked considerably higher up in the caste hierarchy. Of course Annadurai, or The Great Intellectual as you Masanamuthus call him, died of cancer and was replaced by that barber Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion. Who cries himself hoarse about Tamil being in danger (does anybody recall ``Islam is in danger``?) while speaking Telugu at home. He did name his son Tamil Arasu (Tamil King) and his illegitimate daughter Kanimozhi (Sweet Words) which set off a frenzy among the Masanamuthus to name their daughters Love Queen (hey, Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion`s own nephew Maran named his daughter Love Queen!)

Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion lost the election to Marudur Gopala Menon Ramachandra Menon (get used to that name Menon, a##hole, it is a Malayali name as Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion pointed out in vain) and then when MGR died what happened to Vijayakumari, Latha, Manjula or any number of his heroines who used to moonlight as two-bit prostitutes in Kollywood? Why is it that Jayalalitha became the chief minister? That is because you Masanamuthus had no other person to pin your hopes on. Why couldn`t Love Queen, the daughter of Maran run for office? Because she was, and still is, too busy collecting Rs. 10 bribes for medicines at the government pharmacy and Rs. 100 for admission to the free government hospitals from the dirt-poor menial workers of Chennai while selling operations at the free government hospitals to the rich at tens of thousands of rupees. And Stalin, the son of Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion, was lying dead drunk in the gutters of Madras. Even Muthu, the son whom Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion promoted as an alternate hero to MGR in movies, failed at the box office and is now currently a basic member of Jayalaitha`s party.

The utter shiftlessness of the Masanamuthus in ALL matters is exemplified by the attempt by Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion to correct the population imbalance between the North and the South by having the Love Queens become baby factories. The local Tamil newspaper ``Dina Thanthi`` (Daily Telegraph) announced an award of a few thousand rupees to a woman selected as Veera Thai of the month (``Veer Mata`` to you Northies; there goes ``Veera`` as a Tamil word, god, Tamil is truly in danger!). After about 15 months, when all the 90-year-old women who had had 15 children had been thus honored, the newspaper ran out of women to give money to. The furious attempts of Masanamuthus to become stud bulls to the Love Queens turned into a miserable failure and Viagra still being in the far distant future, the newspaper quietly stopped the awards.

So blame yourselves for electing a Karnataka brahmin woman (a three-fer, a black woman normally being counted as a two-fer in the US for Equal Employment Opportunity reports, here she is, a woman, a non-Tamilian AND a brahmin to boot!) to be the head of government in your home state.

[He`s happy because she`s doing well by the brahmins.]

Can you tell us exactly what she has done for the brahmins? Come on, you make a wild allegation, prove it with facts.

PS. Now here is an idea for population control in India. Instead of offering rewards for the least number of children, offer rewards for having the most children. I guarantee the population growth will grind to a halt in two years time as the Masanamuthus (and Bhagawan Dases) stare inmute horror at their limp members!

kaalchakra #95
Only when they are shortchanged as a group,not individually.This was impliciit.The recognition as a group would also come somewhere down the line.It may be self induced or made aware by political entrepeneurship.

soysauce #96
Actually having lived in a neighbouring state, I have been hearing about Brahmin migration for a long time. The govt. does not collect caste-wise figures so there are none. Googling around, the number cited is that Brahmins constitute about 3-4 % of the Tamil Nadu population.

As for Jayalalitha, she is the one who brought in a total of 69% reservation in education and employment in 1994 for backward classes, most backward classes and SC&ST.

According to the TN govt website talks of reservation `` it has now reached the level of 69%. The present policy stipulates 18% reservation for Scheduled Castes, 1% for Scheduled Tribes, 30% for Backward Classes and 20% for Most Backward Classes and Denotified Communities. ``

As for various episodes of violence against Dalits in Tamil Nadu, I am unable to find a single instance where Brahmins were involved. Those who attacked Dalits were Gounders/Vellalas/Vanniyars/Thevars or `other backward castes` or DMK party cadres.

An 1999 HRW report says ``The Home Ministry’s Annual Report for 1995 reported that caste-related incidents in Tamil Nadu, Bihar, and Maharashtra increased by 25 to 30 percent from previous years. A majority of these incidents were taking place between scheduled castes and OBCs.54 The trend has continued, particularly in the state of Tamil Nadu .``

It says ``Caste clashes in the southern state of Tamil Nadu have predominantly involved two communities: the Thevars (a backward caste) and the Pallars (or Dalits). As has been the case in other states, Dalits in Tamil Nadu have long suffered from exploitative economic relationships and have frequently been the victims of violence. However, changes since the early 1990s have altered the economic relationship between the Thevars and the Pallars and have changed the contours of the conflict. Having benefited from the state’s policy of reservations in education and from the income provided by relatives working abroad, the Pallars have become much less dependent on Thevar employment and have begun to assert themselves in the political arena. The Thevars have responded to this threat to their hegemony with violence. Dalits, too, have begun to fight back. ``


About Jayalalitha, the same report says `` J. Jayalalitha, leader of the All India Anna Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam party (AIADMK), was considered a “strong Thevar community supporter” during her five-year tenure as chief minister of the state from 1991 to May 1996.243 Her support included extending influential political and police positions to members of the Thevar community—allowing them to further consolidate their power base.244 N. Sasikala, Jayalalitha’s aide and confidante and a Thevar community member, was also accused of “astutely promoting her caste.”245 Lawyers, human rights activists and the local press have noted that, as a result, a majority of the police force in the southern districts now “hails from [the Thevar] caste and, often, have been unable to overcome their caste affiliations.”246

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/india/India994-07.htm#TopOfPage


In summary, I am unable to understand how with Brahmins being at 3-4% population in Tamil Nadu and violence being perpetuated by other groups, just how Brahmins are held responsible for Dalits` plight.

Am also still unable to understand why after 69% reservation for `backward` castes and 35 odd years of non-Brahmin DMK/AIADMK rule, 3-4% Brahmins are still held responsible for `oppression` of other castes. Feel free to say why you think otherwise.

Let me say I support reservations or affirmative action for historically discriminated castes/communities. But it should be done with social justice as goal and not for political or electoral mileage, because beyond a point, the state blindly entitling people simply for being born into a particular caste only helps strengthen caste boundaries not erase them.

Nor do I think that the single-issue anti-Brahminism of 1920s antiquity to which DMK/AIADMK subscribe is any longer useful for solving the problem of social justice in Tamil Nadu.

does someone have a chart of caste and religion numbers info in UPS/IAS/Central and STate Govt. by year? will be interesting to see.

there were the good old days when brahmins were the privilaged ones, even when poor. princely states, maharajas and small-time jagirdars often had allocations for poor brahmin kids to come and study in the durbar town. kids would live in poverty and literally ``beg`` for their lunch, (typically a brahmin boy would go to a different house for lunch, or go get roti from one dal from other etc) and spartan dorms with yet more spartan dinner would be provided by the Jajman king, in addition to the school. king or prince personally looked into the affairs of these schools, insisted on excercise etc. kind of like the modern day madrassas, except the kids got normal education. then for special occasions kids would get some dinner with some sweet dish.

i have listened to some aged relatives talk of attending such schools in the 1920s.. they absolutely hated it, but got them the education otherwise impossible. that was some affirmative action.

re: rahul_capri

``ethnic gropus vote as a chunk only when they feel they are being shortchanged.``

``Groups`` sometimes vote as a chunk when they feel they are being shortchanged. Not always. Many other factors come into play.

They may not `see` themselves as a group. When they do, group-membership may not receive overwhelming salience in their total scheme of things. Peoples` definition of `being shortchanged` may vary. They may differ in how they perceive the causal orgins of their perceived problems. In their own collective mythology, there may exist greater or lesser cultural premium on group-level solutions and group concerns. They may have connected themselves to members of other groups with either thick or sparse social ties. Consequently, they may be more or less aware of, more or less sympathatic toward people of other groups making competing claims and advancing competing concerns. Even when all these factors are similar, groups differ in how, how easily, and how enthusiastically they can be mobilized into engaing in joint political action.

#84 sadna,
Your claim that brahmins have been reduced to insignificance numerically is plain wrong. Had there been an ``ethnic`` cleansing of the sort you`re alleging we all would have heard about it. Politically, as Harimau Iyer will tell you, a brahmin is the chief minister. He`s happy because she`s doing well by the brahmins.

harimou#97:

Nearly half a century ago, Prof. M.N. Srinivas documented the phenomenon of sanskritisation in the south, whereby a number of upwardly mobil lower-castes (what you call masanmathus) imitated upper caste social norms (such as shunning meat and wearing sacred threads) to successully seek acceptance as upper castes. I was wondering if this phenomenon came to an end with the coming to power of the dravidian parties, especially since the upper castes themselves seem to be quite busy desankritising themselves.
Serious reply, please!

harimau #92
The difference between ``Vedic Hinduism``, as you call it and other religions is that Hindu Gods are not like some cosmic Saddams who would punish you if ``the book`` is not followed.One of the reason being that there is no ``the book`` in Hinduism.There are a series of myths and fables through which an ethical framework is nurtured,not mandated. There is still the concept of heaven and hell though and that of a karma express.If you sin you may come back as a lesser being and or go to hell. Eveything else is pretty much left to a person.
As you say, all the castes have not been defined by Vedic Hinduism , but some have, and somehow this has started and multiplied in the society. To understand how, is not just the matter of ``clutching at straws``;it merits a formal ethnographic study.One reason may be assimilation of a wide variety of cultures.
To eliminate castes and going back to ``true`` Hinduism as you call it would introduce pedantry and the same rigidity and inflexibility as exists in Islam. There would be a multitude of sects that would claim to be hindus and the argument towards the definition of a ``true`` Hindu would prevail.
When we look to it in a larger context,religion is certainly necessary to provide an ethical framework for humans. It has some utility. But whoever thought of religion is dead and gone now. If we do believe in a very strict moral code being mandated by a religion and the concept of divinity and immutability, we expect a more disciplined society , within the religion. But the problem with that approach is that it does not evolve with time with reformist movements (like the Arya samaj movement) and secondly followers of such a faith will tend to develop a less tolerant attitude towards followers of other religious faiths.

As for ``Vedic`` Hindus not forming an agressive identity of their own, I think ethnic gropus vote as a chunk only when they feel they are being shortchanged. When the hindus felt so , they bought the BJP and the shivsena to power. Now they dont feel so, so they vote on other issues. TamilNadu may be a special case,where upper caste Hindus may be facing the problems of both being a majority in the country and being a minority in the state. And thats why I think reservation if any, should be time bound. It certainly increases chasms in society and there are other ways for poverty alleviation.

Ref rahul_capri #87

[I think that there is a fundamental difference between caste discrimination and religious discrimination at least in the context of Hinduism.]

Actually, one could consider various castes to be different religions.

Does Vedic Hinduism recognize Small-Pox as a Goddess? No. Does it consecrate little girls as devadasis? No. Would it ever consider adding a fat movie actress to its list of deities? No. They worshipped Rudra, Vishnu, and personified forces of Nature as Indra, Varuna, etc., and added them to their pantheon.

Does Vedic Hinduism have 4000-odd castes? No. It is the people, who do not want to be classified broadly, who want to clutch at straws that they think might give them incrementally better social standing, who classified themselves into these multitude of castes and who then turn around and blame it on Hinduism.

The mistake is actually of two kinds: one is the peaceful assimilation of various tribal deities as manifestations of Vedic Hinduism`s gods and goddesses. The other is the refusal to assimilate the individuals constituting the tribes by inter-marriage.

The first mistake, one of commission, meant that all these tribes could claim that they were being discriminated against by Vedic Hinduism. The remedy for this, according to them, is quotas and a larger slice of a small economic pie. They have no intention of enlarging the pie because they fear somebody else -- horror of horrors, it might be someone lower than them on the social scale -- might then be able to grab a small piece of it.

If instead of Vedic Hinduism these people had encountered Christians or Muslims in the 8th century, what would have been their plight? There is no doubt that Muslims would have demanded submission to Allah, the demolition of their places of worship, the destruction of the idols of their gods, etc. It would have been no different if they had encountered
Christianity. In fact, the history of Goa records the destruction notonly of temples but wholesale torture to force the local population to convert to Catholicism. It is known that the Portuguese did not spare even people who have been Christians longer than they have been Christians: the Metropolitan of the Syrian Orthodox Church was seized on the high seas
and subjected to the cruel tortures of the Inquisition and burnt at the stake as a heretic.

But all of this is whitewashed by the criminal gang that writes the textbooks, by the Marxists who teach at Jawaharlal Nehru University, and by the politicians. Crimes against humanity are alleged against Vedic Hinduism in public fora but not against Christianity or Islam. This is the exact opposite of real facts. However, inconvenient facts are ignored. For example, in a recent conference in South Africa on racism, a couple of Indian activists on the payroll of foreign groups alleged that caste discrimination is akin to racism and wanted India to be denounced as a racist country. What is the truth? In South Africa where racial separation was practiced, blacks were not allowed to travel in the same train carriages as whites. In India, when train travel was introduced, brahmins simply refused to use the trains because the did not want to be polluted by people of other castes. In South Africa, it was state-mandated segregation. In India, it was voluntary disassociation from certain segments of society. The brahmins did not petition the railway companies to set aside separate carriages marked ``Brahmins Only`` like facilities used to be marked ``White`` and ``Colored`` in the South of the US or in South Africa. Yet these people wanted to equate India with the racist society of South Africa.

The other act, one of omission, was the refusal to inter-marry with other tribes. It is not as if Vedic Hindus are the only ones guilty of this practice. All you have to do is to look at the matrimonial advertisements in India`s newspapers. You will see that every single caste is looking to marry within its own group. This in fact is the reason why these 4000+ castes have survived for a couple of millennia. So, the exclusivism of Vedic Hinduism is not the only cause for the persistence of castes in India.

In fact, it would be great if Vedic Hinduism is declared to be a separate religion and all the fcukers who don`t belong to it such as the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu are told to choose a name for their religion. In that way, Vedic Hinduism might enjoy protections extended to minority religions such as Islam, and we might see in actuality a subsidy for pilgrimages to Mt. Kailash and not just for the Hajj.

re:#24 by saint
I am rather late to this forum but this sentence arrested my attention:
``the situation of the upper caste types in India is no different from that of the jews in Nazi Germany of 1930s.``
This is particularly true in the South Indian context.
Which is why most higher castes are either migrating North (for jobs), get into some Institutes of excellence (like IIT, IISc etc where merit is still counted) or have branched into private enterprises. Those who cling on to govt jobs and refuse to move out of the area (i know some people who seem to have stupid loyalty to Madras for instance) suffer a lot.
The whole world is now a global village. Caste discrimination will not stop someone who is determined and has the talent. However, it will rot away the system which seeks to benefit from this.
Sridhar

re:#39 by MaheshG2
Vedas were interpreted by people like Max Mueller whose knowledge of Sanskrit was superficial. Max Mueller is said to have taken the help of a Sanskrit scholar from Benaras to translate the vedas. One incident i learnt is hilarious. Having learnt that a white man has translated Vedas, a Pundit travelled from a far away place to meet Max Mueller and started speaking animatedly with him in Sanskrit. MM politely told him that his knowledge of Sanskrit did not extent to the level of conversation!
That being the scholarship of Max Mueller, do u really believe he had the ability to correctly translate the Vedas?
Sanskrit is such a rich language that one word can have several meanings and several words can have the same meaning. For eg: the word Dwija can mean bird or a brahmin depending on the context. Of course our MM was not aware of this, so there are many inaccuracies in the translation.
Now to the verse in question:
(“Black skin is impious & lowly`` Sanskrit : < ``dA`saM va`rNaM a`dharaM gu`hA`kaH`` > “
Rig Veda II.12.4
“Indra protected in battle the Aryan worshipper, he subdued the lawless for Manu, he conquered the black skin)
Black in the context refers to evil rather than the skin color. Varnam can mean caste or disposition. Here, it refers to the evil that Indra conquered.
Much of the fight between Devas (whose head was Indra) and Asuras was symbolic of the fight between good and evil. You should know (if u have ever read Hindu mythology) that both were cousins, born to the same father Kashyapa but to different mothers (Devas to Aditi, Asuras to Diti). It is inconceivable that there was much of physical dissimilarity between them.
Sridhar

re:#49 by soysauce
``Caste discrimination is really religious discrimination. Everything else is just detail.``
You are a bigger idiot than i thought.
Both higher and lower castes worship the same Gods. Lower castes may have some additional Tribal Gods but the fight is not ``my God is better than yours`` but the fight is about self-respect, opportunities for economic advancement, political empowerment.
The same Yadavs in Bihar who were once discriminated against now have become perpetrators of discrimination when they became empowered politically. Where does religion come into picture here?
Sridhar

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Ref kaalchakra #85

[Soyasauce

I am turning into a regular admirer. You instinctually understand many things that did not come easily to me. If it`s not too nosey of me, Sir, do you have a dalit backgound?]

Ha, ha, ha, ha! You didn`t perhaps catch the refernce to Asli-Masanamuthu who is none other than Soysauce. Here is your answer:

[#67 by harimau on December 9, 2004 6:00pm PT

..... Just ask Asli-Masanamuthu if he is a Scheduled Caste and you would know that indeed he has more fury than Hell and the proverbial scorned woman combined.]

Nope, Asli-Masanamuthu is NOT a dalit. He might have a piece of paper obtained by paying Rs. 500 to the local panchayat headman or tahsildar that certifies him to be one of the MBCs. However, even on paper, he wouldn`t want to be called a dalit. No sirree Bob, he is probably a Chettiar who is ripping off the dalits by charging daily interest rates of 3%. Or the aptly named Kallan (caste of professional thieves).

soysauce #77 I think that there is a fundamental difference between caste discrimination and religious discrimination at least in the context of Hinduism. An interrelationship and resposibility in the society was defined according to the caste of a person.Hence the concept, high caste and low caste.So, different castes are not isolated entities but are related somewhere under the umbrella of religion.This cannot be said though about two religions.
HP#78 i would not say that I fully agree with DM on the rationale for restricting the conversion to semitic religions, but,just for the sake of argument. it does not follow that this is condescension.In the name of nationalism, everything is fair game.Its similar to not providing right of self determination to Kashmiris.Not condescension , pragmatism.

Soyasauce

``Defining what hinduism is like defining the shape of a cloud.``

``Temple entry was an issue that Gandhiji & a few others were interested in - in the name of keeping hindu unity & reforming the religion but the dalits themselves don`t particularly care except in a few instances.``

I am turning into a regular admirer. You instinctually understand many things that did not come easily to me. If it`s not too nosey of me, Sir, do you have a dalit backgound?

Should you ever care to drop me a line, I can be reached at The_Kaal@yahoo.com. Thanks and best regards.

soysauce #81

I don`t want to hurt the Muslims and Christians here, but here`s the thing. Given an `egalitarian` Christian, an `egalitarian` Muslim and an upper caste Hindu, it is the upper caste Hindu who is most likely to worship at a temple of a different caste`s favorite deity and believe that there are many ways to God. How do you think there got to be 33 lakh devas?

The Muslim and Christian are more likely to shun the same temple as unholy and to believe that the worshippers are defying God and heading for hellfire for `false` religious beliefs, something the upper caste Hindu is unlikely to believe.

If the `lower caste` Hindu converts to Islam or Christianity, then he too will be more likely than the upper caste Hindu to shun the same temple and its rituals as unholy and false. Religious discrimination is not the Hindu`s speciality like caste discrimination is.

In fact if a holy man`s sayings make sense to him, of the three the Hindu is more likely to accept the guy as religious guru irrespective of whether the holy man is of `lower caste` origins or a Muslim sufi.
--

In my opinion, Dalit or even `lower caste` movements have not been exclusively for political rights. Primarily the driving force been self-respect which encompasses everything and might lead to outright rejection of Hinduism by individuals, families or whole communities or re-positioning within Hindu society sometimes using religion itself.

So there have been a number of Dalit/`lower caste` movements within Hinduism as well, which have succeeded in these communities doing better politically, economically and socially.

btw, it is a bit surprising that after so many years of `lower caste` rule in Tamil Nadu with Brahmins reduced to insignificance, numerically, politically and socially, Dalits there are still fighting for political rights. Wonder if DMK/AIADMK ideology is the new Brahminism.

Ref HP #78

[Harimau- the purpose of posting that exchange was not to show the geographical positions of places of worship but to relate that exchange to the concern people have in India about conversions.]

And my purpose was to prevent the pseudo-secularists on Chowk from nodding in grave agreement with the bogus arguments put forth by people (whom you quoted) with the least knowledge about actual ground realities. If you could find that particular piece of nonsense on the web, how can anyone be sure that those same fraudulent comments won`t be repeated in a thousand arguments to bolster the position that what India needs is more intrusion into Hindu holy sites by other religions?

[I have been saying it all along that quotas alone would not change Dalit predicament in India. Harimau basically confirmed my thinking that people who already have some influence in the bureaucracy and in the political set up, are hijacking quotas at present to deny the true benefactors opportunities for economic and social empowerment. It appears to me that this hijacking is taking place at about the level that may be slightly above Dalits themselves in the social standing.]

Do you think that anyone would actually be permitted to open schools in UP, Bihar or ``high literacy`` Tamil Nadu dedicated to educating and empowering Dalits? If one or more such schools are opened, the reaction would be swift: the teachers would be intimidated, the school buildings would be burnt down, the students would be thrashed to within an inch of their lives, their parents would be tortured and the school administrators would be brutally murdered.

Why? Let us look at the reality of farming rice. This is not an activity that can be easily mechanized. It requires one to grow seedlings in standing water from seeds, then transplant the seedlings by hand, again in standing water. The commonest sight in Tamil Nadu is the Pallan and Paraiyah (yes, that is a word that has even gone into the English language) women bent double, standing in mid-calf water, patiently transplanting seedlings into orderly rows for 12 hours a day, for days at a time. Then they bend double again when they weed the fields, and again when they cut the stalks of rice at harvest time. This activity is what feeds the country, what brings profit to the landowner. Do you think the politicians and landowners don`t see that educating the Pallans and Pariyahs would cut off their supply of docile labor just 15 years after they enter grade school? The politicians can`t afford to have that happen. Not that they care about availability of food, just that they would lose votes if the price of rice goes up. Ask Vajpayee who lost an election on the price of onions!

The land would lie fallow if you educate and empower the Dalits. That is why in Bihar you hear about the Ranvir Sena, funded and organized by the Thakurs, terrorizing uppity Dalits by burning their slums at night. That is why you hear about the Thevans and Maravans of Tamil Nadu chopping off the head of any Dalit who so much as looks them in the eye.

This reality will not change. It is not in anyone`s interest for it to change. Not in the interests of the middle-class city-dweller. Not in the interests of the politicians. Not in the interests of the landowners. In short, not in the interests of those who exercise power by denying it to the vast majority of the illiterate ryots.

The above probably sounds like the ravings of a Communist, I am sure. It probably is except that the Communists in India (or anywhere in the world) have used the misery of the landless agriculural laborer to get themselves into power, only to perpetuate the system using the collective farm approach, this time backed by the naked exercise of military power.

Do Chowkies at least now understand why that fraud Soysauce refuses to answer any questions about what his grades were, how he got into a professional college, what his family`s landholdings are or his family`s political activities are? Because he is the perfect representative of the Dravidian party politician who sheds tears in public over the plight of the ryot while sipping his daily first drink at 9 am in his air-conditioned parlor.

#80 Sadna
My point is that someone else`s definition of religion won`t do.
How does this ``religious difference`` manifest itself? In indian villages, at least in the ones I`m familiar with in TN, different castes have traditionally worshipped different deities in different temples. Brahmins would not even dream of entering a ``seri`` (localities where dalits - paLLans & parayans - live) & would not thnik of letting the dalits worshipping in brahmin temples. These are small temples, the size of a house or even smaller that do not come under the control of the hindu endowment boards. If the differences are breaking down now it`s because there also are political & societal shifts simultaneously.
There is a famous temple for Mary in Velankkani & a dargha in Nagore where all religions worship. We are not going to argue on that basis that there is no distinction between hindus, chrisitans & muslims. At the village, everyday existence level, there are significant differences between castes in how they practice their religion.
It could be argued that these differences in the religious beliefs are incidental to caste differences & that something else is a primary cause (occupation, for example).
This argument ignores something very significant. What the dalits are fighting for are their political rights, not for becoming brahmins. Temple entry was an issue that Gandhiji & a few others were interested in - in the name of keeping hindu unity & reforming the religion but the dalits themselves don`t particularly care except in a few instances.

HP

Numbers matter, absolutely and critically. In a world in which all religious interaction is made occasion for religious competition, numbers mean survival and security, or death and elimination. It will surprise us very much if most Muslims and Christians did not already know that fact.

From outside India may appear stable, but she is evolving. More and more Indians are giving up on Brahminism. Some partly, others completely. Even though we will always differ in many ways, we all see unique and enormous value in the broad spectrum of Indic traditions, including the various ``hindu` dalit traditions, that we do not see in semitic ones. We wish to reform what needs to be reformed and hold on to what is very dear to us locally and individually.

At least in India, nobody should expect to be given a pass when they compete with us for numerical domination within India itself!

Again, numbers surely matter. We did not invent this game, but being forced to play it, that`s what we must do. Number-conscious semites must expect nothing less from a worthy, if lately awakened, adversary.

HP

please make a point in in 3 sentences. you have lost me big except that it YOU who thinks dalits are ignorant and being used politically. on the contrary, dalits are participating in the political football and are in general vocal.

e.g. go to RSS heartland of nagpur, and you will find huge dalit rallies of republican party, totally in the open. politically dalits are here to stay. so why do you conclude that they have no where to go? heck if they want to convert, no one can stop them.

prediction:

as economy is taking a higher priority in indian politics, rising tide will tend to dilute identity politics ( e.g. i mean shiv sena lost big in its heartlend recently ).

if economy improves, the DALIT issue will vanish..have you heard of dalit issue in Japan? why not?

soysauce #77
soysauce, please do cite examples. I have never come across anyone ever discussing what ``religion`` other castes practice much less denying such ``religion`` legitimacy. People are more likely to worship in each others` temples than deny them legitimacy.

IMO you are mistaking the effect for the cause. Caste discrimination arises not from a pathology of `upper castes` drawing religious distinctions or denying religious legitimacy to `lower castes`, but from the pathology of `upper castes` being unwilling to share power and influence with them.

And similar to denying `lower castes` power and influence in the social or economic sphere, in the religious sphere too (including building of temples, temple entry and temple management) too is power and influence sought to be withheld by caste discrimination.

And it was to mitigate this that the Constitution granted the state the right to intervene in management of Hindu religious institutions. In Kerala, for instance, temples are managed by a state-nominated Devasom Board.

The existence of a general pathology of being unwilling to share power and influence is borne out by the fact that wherever the so-called `backward castes` have gained ascendance(and even after declaring themselves nonHindus or atheists) they too practice discrimination against other castes, including those `lower` than them in the heirarchy including Dalits.

I am looking for the complete works of Raja Ram Mohan Roy. Are they available anywhere? The Brahmo Samaj website does not list any major publications.

Raja Ram Mohan Roy thought and wrote a lot. He penned books and gave speeches in many languages. So his entire work must span multiple volumes. If it`s never been compiled in one place then we are indeed in trouble. Chowkie friends, I need your help in locating this most revolutionary body of work.

#53 kaalchakra
Thank you for your kind words. Hinduism is a fuzzy concept. Defining what hinduism is like defining the shape of a cloud.

#60 Sadna
Two things. Religious discrimination does not have to mean that a certain religion is suppressed, rather that its adherents are discriminated against in the public sphere.
If you see ``hinduism`` as a composite of many religions, then one or more powerful groups discriminating against the others is not far fetched. This composite business itself is not anything strange. After all, the existence of ``high`` and ``low`` forms of hinduism is more or less accepted. I`m just suggesting a broader differentiation.
What`s the point of doing this? For those of us who accept religious discrimination (as per my definition above) as normal (not acceptable but normal), but consider caste discrimination as somehow a mysterious pathology (``how can hindus discriminate among themselves?``), there`s no real mystery to it. It`s just a form of religious discrimination.

Let me try and wade back into the thread.

Harimau- the purpose of posting that exchange was not to show the geographical positions of places of worship but to relate that exchange to the concern people have in India about conversions.
Kaalchakra- you are right about quotas and the reaction to that was similar to what we see in India from the privileged upper castes.

Jang in his post said that basically Indians have not reached the kind of empowerment that would allow them to make an untainted decision about conversion.

KaalChakra feels that Semitic religions may not be a good idea and if the conversion has to take place, it needs to be in religions that have local texture instead of some foreign and alien cultural influence. Kaal wants to go a step further- He wants conversion to Semitic religions banned altogether and immediately.

DM as usual is much more candid about what he says. He supports the right to choose but would prefer conversion to Christianity over Islam for fears of repeat of `47 and many more issues that are related with Hindu-Muslims interaction in India for sometime now.

If we translate these opinions to the Dalit predicament, it amounts to a consensus among the upper caste to deny the Dalit the right to choose whatever is best for them. That again leads back to the issue whether upper castes in India really consider Dalit not only socially inferior but also intellectually inferior to make decisions for themselves in their personal or collective capacity?

I have been saying it all along that quotas alone would not change Dalit predicament in India. Harimau basically confirmed my thinking that people who already have some influence in the bureaucracy and in the political set up, are hijacking quotas at present to deny the true benefactors opportunities for economic and social empowerment. It appears to me that this hijacking is taking place at about the level that may be slightly above Dalits themselves in the social standing.
Now the question pops up again whether the India intelligentsia or to a larger extent Indian democracy has some ideas of bringing about 25% of the India population in to the mainstream? There has been a tendency in the subcontinent to let the issues simmer until the time they actually catch fire and then find out some ad-hoc solutions to tide things over until the issue pops back up again. This is a vicious circle and we all know about it.

Considering that India is almost at a threshold where it may become an economic powerhouse in future, under utilization and/or practically ensuring a major section of population to lag behind would block that progress or would open several social fronts that may actually start to bog the economic progress down?


Without prejudice, allow me to plug the consensus amongst the upper castes about conversions back into a larger theme that plays out in India, especially in the cow belt.

There has been a constant theme now in Indian politics and in some intellectual circles that the Hindu population is declining and there may be a time in near future that other religions may actually attain ascendancy in the political set up. As I understand it the idea was that Muslims are multiplying faster than the Hindus and there is a possibility that they might actually become a much bigger player in the social and economic conditions in the country. I believe that those fears were adequately addressed in “hum paanch hum pachees” theme that was played out to attract Hindu middleclass and voters at the grassroots level.

Please correct me if I say that the fear and opposition to conversions actually relates to growing Muslim population in India and Dalits have been targeted as it is a vulnerable community that could be manipulated into changing religion and the choice may be Islam?

harish#72

``A law is only as good as its adherents allow it to be. For that matter, there is a law against murder too, but has that prevented people from killing?``

...a more appropriate example would be dowry, which is worse now than it was before it was legally banned.

The quota system hits people`s pockebooks. Those who are adversely affected by the existence of quotas, complain, most of the time. They argue that quotas are unfair and in deemphasizing merit can be downright dangerous.

Those who benefit from quotas, support them vociferously, most of the time. They claim that no progress has been made, besides putting forward the truism that merit can be defined in many ways.

These are natural responses from people who stand to lose from quotas and people who stand to gain from them. These responses become truly regrettable and unacceptable only when they are voiced in the form of ad hominem and emotional accusations of people being `dumb` on one side and `racists` and `hitlers` on the other.

Real issues of economics, and the power that economic strength brings, are the key motivations here, not caste. Were quotas based on any factor other than caste, people will still behave in exactly the same way.

I am not familiar with the quota system in Pakistan. However, one can safely say that if the quota system in Pakistan matches the one in force in India, Pakistani voices raised in its support and in its opposition will sound very similar to the ones we hear in India.

#50 by HP

[..prohibiting Sati was not a change from within. It was enforced by law and it did not happen overnight.]

A law is only as good as its adherents allow it to be. For that matter, there is a law against murder too, but has that prevented people from killing?

Ref HP #70

HP quoted a discussion on some other website [Hypothetically Karnal may have no Christians and Kayalpattinam may have only Muslims (there are 64 mosques in that tiny town and tough to locate a good mosque in temple town of Kumbhakonam or Srirangam)....]

There can be nothing further from the truth.

Kumbakonam has not just mosques but even the Al-Ameen High School. If this temple town and surrounding areas has enough Muslims to support a high school, you can imagine what the Muslim population must be. I myself have heard the azaan early in the morning in Kumbakonam.

Srirangam is a small island in the middle of the Cauvery river and may not have land available to set up a mosque. But if you watch Jaya-TV with its constant propaganda against the Kanchi Shankaracharya and his monastery, when they show the monastery you can clearly see just down the street the green-painted twin minarets of a mosque. So the temple town of Kanchipuram can definitely be proved to have a mosque. Which it probably did not have 20 years ago. So there is still hope for a mosque in Srirangam which would be essential to prove the secularism of India and the tolerance of Hindus. However, no such proof is ever demanded of the ``peaceful`` religion called Islam.

There is no question about the existence (until recently) of a mosque in Lord Rama`s birthplace Ayodhya. Pakistanis, Indian Muslims, pseudo-secularists and Dost-Mittar have been shedding copious tears about its demolition with Soysauce providing mournful background music.

There is also no question about the existence of the Gyan Vapi mosque right smack against the Vishwanath Temple in Benares or the construction of a mosque over the destroyed Krishna Temple in Mathura.

Pseudo-secularists and hand-wringing Hindus ashamed that they were born a couple of centuries too late to be able to offer their mothers, sisters and wives to be raped by Islamic thugs and who are making up for it by ardently supporting that Italian household help probably will be willing to concede that there are not enough mosques to support the burgeoning Muslim population. I would not be surprised if, in addition to the Hajj subsidy, they now start a mosque construction fund.

I cant believe we have this pompous Sindhi HP lecturing Hindus about conversion. What a joke.

This is what Islam says about apostacy:

-But such as open their breast to unbelief on them is Wrath from Allah and theirs will be a dreadful penalty.

(Surah 16: 106, Qur’an)

-Whoever renounces his religion, kill him.

(Muhammad in the hadith, Sahih al Bukhari’s collection)

Shari’ah law states that Muslim men who convert to another faith and refuse to return to Islam should be put to death. It also specifies various other penalties including the annulment of their marriage, the loss of their children and all their property, and the suspension of all financial and legal contracts and inheritance rights, all to be returned if they revert to Islam.

I think this Sindhi should stick his advice up his black hole, if there is any room left there after getting shafted by Poonjabiz and Moohoojarz for so long. Yo Sindhi! Your Sindhi people have twenty years left maximum before you are out bred and out cast in your own land. What a pathetic race of people.

Now, what shall we do about the evil tyrannical and cruel laws on apostacy in Islam?

Please feel free to debate this issue in a calm manner, ESPECIALLY Hindus.

Ref saint #68

[Jang , Dost-Mittar....any conversion to Islam in India happened in the days of the 800 odd year muslim rule. Post independence , many hindus - dalits basically - have converted to Buddhism and Christianity. Hardly a couple of thousand dalits in India have converted to Islam in the last 5 and a half decade...which is understandable given the fact that the primary motivation in changing one`s faith is financial in nature and Islam does not provide that.]

You are wrong, my friend. The first qualification for a job in the Persian Gulf area is being a Muslim. Look at the ads in the newspapers if you don`t believe me. Many specifically restrict the jobs to Muslims.

Add to that the enticement that a conversion to Islam will guarantee you a job -- not just make you eligible to apply for one -- as offered by the local mullahs flush with funds from Saudi Arabia and you will understand why there are wholesale conversions to Islam right now in India.

Here is a little exchange between two Indians on another discussion forum where I also contribute.

Original post.

``In my opinion the figures for Christianity are misleading because of deliberate fudging indulged by converted Christians. Officially they claim to be Hindus to get the benefits of govt policies. But they are all practicing christians.
In my opinion 20 - 30% of Tamil Nadu is actually Christian. They all have dual identities. It is a known phenomenon here. My driver has become a Christian. But he still retains the name of Subramani, his ration card, driving licence etc are in this name. He may be registered as a Hindu. But reality is otherwise.
He is part of a vast army of Christian propaganda workers financed and equipped by missionaries. They are being given free scooters and allowance (scooters are bought and ownership transferred to them) to go to the interior and covert. It is a military type disciplined assault on the Hindus. Let there be no doubt about this. The funding comes from the fundamental and fanatic protestant / evangelical groups from US. They are rolling in money.
Same is happening in chattisgarh, Orissa, Andhra and all over india.
My gut feeling is Christians are now nearer to 10% of the population as against the official 2.3%.
Not only has the percentage of Hindus come down; there is a fall in the growth rate for Hindus. In case of Islam and Christianity not only has the proportion grown the growth rates are also increasing.``

..And the response.

“So what? The ``nightmare`` seems to be Hindus will be outnumbered. No single community on its own can do that but ALL communities put together may do so, that seems to be the ``fear`` being expressed here. It is like in Bangalore City where Kannadigas are a single largest group but are outnumbered by ALL non-Kannadigas put together, who need not really be ``ganged`` up against Kannadigas. My question is: If Hindus become a Minority & yet remain the largest ``homogenous`` group, while ALL other religions (who are at mutual loggerheads anyway) put together out number Hindus; IF AT ALL that happens.....So what?

Hindus are already a minority in a few States, including Punjab, claimed by many to be the very cradle of Vedic Dharma. So what`s wrong with that?

Whether Hindus are one single lot or not has become touchy issue here & we can leave it at that but one has to contend with the reality that there are areas where Hindus are in overwhelming, overpowering majority and there are areas where you may not see a Hindu household for miles on end. Statistics do not tell the tale of humans nor of society always. Hypothetically Karnal may have no Christians and Kayalpattinam may have only Muslims (there are 64 mosques in that tiny town and tough to locate a good mosque in temple town of Kumbhakonam or Srirangam). Meghalaya may have a nice Sanskrit sounding name but none to recite Richas or read Fatiha...

So what?”
>>>>>>>>>

Some support for harimau!
I think in his rage Harimau has really touched the real issue behind the numbers that we see and believe to be true.
Harimau, I am from Sindh in Pakistan and we had a huge struggle for quotas for local Sindhis when it appeared that all jobs were either going to Punjabis or the Urdu speaking from Karachi and other cities in Sindh. Finally, in the early 1970s in the ZAB era, the government approved of quotas in education and jobs. Initially, that quota was abused and lots of Punjabis and Urdu speaking, who had agricultural lands in the rural Sindh took advantage of the system to land jobs and seats in educational institution. In the last thirty years though, situation has changed considerably. All the fake claimants have disappeared and now the people that needed the support have come up and are dominating the jobs and educational institutions in Sindh. Yes quota helped and there is a change in economic demographics but that has brought another set of problems.

There are always going to be procedural problems, corruption and abuses but that should not deter communities from making efforts to change things around.
In Sindh, it was easy to tell who was phony but in India where those distinctions are hard to make people would circumvent every rule to gain some economic advantage.

DM, Kaal, Jang
It is late and I really have to go. Will try and write something tomorrow to get back to the issues again.

Ref HP #51

[#50 by HP
Correction

“The reservation in govt jobs have helped approx 3.5 Dalit”

Should read “3.5 million Dalit.”]

Nope. Your original post is correct. The 3.5 million Dalits who are supposed to have profited from the quota system are not real Dalits but people like Asli-Masanamuthu aka Soysauce who bribe government officials to get a bogus caste certificate.

If in fact 3.5 million Dalits have benefitted from these quotas, most Indians wouldn`t have a problem with the quota system. But it is the human leeches on society -- such as the Chettiars who lend money on daily interest of 3% and their equivalent Seths in the North; the folks who breed like pigs and so have political/voting power to get themselves declared as BCs, MBCs, OBCs, etc. (Backward Classes, Most Backward Classes, Other Backward Classes, respectively) -- who have stolen the quotas from the true SC/ST (Scheduled Caste/Scheduled Tribe) members. Just ask Asli-Masanamuthu if he is a Scheduled Caste and you would know that indeed he has more fury than Hell and the proverbial scorned woman combined.

If 3.5 million Dalits have indeed profited from the quota regime, you should see about 40 million Dalits leading middle-class lives. (I figure this as: each emancipated Dalit is able to improve the lives of himself, his 3 siblings on average, and his parents. By the time you add wives and two children to each of this emancipated generation, you actually have 26 but I halve that to 12 -- I am not using fractions because that is beyond the capability of our Asli-Masanamuthu -- to arrive at 40 million.) Do we have 40 million Dalits leading happy lives? No. So, where have the fruits of the quota system gone? No Sharma, Dixit, Tripathi, Tiwari, Trivedi, Chaturvedi, Namboodri, Bhatt, Iyer or Iyengar is going to be able to pass himself off as a BC. It is those who choose to name their kids Tamil Jewel and Love Queen who are able to exploit the system to their advantage much like they continue to murder and rape Dalits at will today not just in Bihar but in ``high-in-literacy`` Tamil Nadu or Kerala.

Yup, 3.5 Dalits just about sounds right. And you are wondering why Indians are pissed off at the quota system.

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mittarji:

good posts, both #61 and #62. :)

HP

``It is evident from all accounts that most of dalit social, cultural and economic problems emanate from the dominant Hindu religion and if dalit reach a conclusion based on their personal or community consensus to change their religion, there should not be any impediments built to refrain them from making that decision. ``

HP, if a dalit (or anyone) actually ``evolves`` to a state of consciousness that you mention, he will have little need for any change of religion. They are empowered right there. Reality is these decisions are very murky.

But if this is indeed the solution to dalit problem, cool. Unfortunately its not scalable. Some dalits who changed to christianity AND got education, and jobs in formal economy did break from the Dalit status. This does not mean that they marry Rajputs, but i have seen entire village communities evolve out of this religious upgrade, they marry within their community mostly, but their next gen will be more free (as is the next gen of upper castes).

This all happened ONLY after massive funds were pored in by the specific church for 1-12 grade schooling and college boarding education and then even jobs in church offices and via other new-formed bonds. Can these micro-pilot projects scale to 350 million dalits? Only with comensurate funding.

I see an interesting problem with many of the later generations (no big deal though). The church kind of alieanated them from general indian culture during their schooling. Now their kids are growing-up in the larger indian community (in india or as nris). Indians are feeling kind of resurgent pride in their culture (e.g. from vulgar bhangra re-mixes to more sublime classical artforms). These converts are unable to support their kids participation .. they are kind of torn.. is this wild indian culture pagan? my daughter wants to join mrs nathans Bharatanatyam class, should i allow her or restrict her to piano classes? How about language?

In general, indians however have not felt threatened that christian coversions will leading to separatism, except in the north-east.

HP

Apostatical conversions are a very controversial affair in most religions. It will take some deliberations before all of us get it right. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

nikki

Yasirz`s post reflects his own views about South Indians. I doubt that too many types of North Indians will be his friends, much less kid about South Indians before him. He may have some North Indian friends, but they won`t be the typical North Indians.

kaalchakra:

We have to separate theory from practice. Christianity may be an abrahmic religion but conversion to it does not entail any political baggage. No christian in India has ever demanded a separate homeland (the situation in Nagaland is ethnic, not relgious). Conversions to christianty does not mean a change in culture. A hindu changing to christianity does not change his foold, language, script or culture. Instead, even their churches are indianised. They use bible in hindi/tamil/urdu/malayam, etc. I have visited churches in the south where people were taking off their shoes before entering it. And more and more, you find that christians in India are choosing Indic first names and in Pakistan farsi names. The new christianity is proving to be very flexible and mixes well and christians make it a point not to stick out like a sore thumb. In case you haven`t noticed, Indian christians are among the most rabid chauvinists on this site, ballukhan is the only muslim you can characterise in this way.

And conversion to christianity is not a one-way street and you or your progeny can at any given time leave christianity without a fatwa of death on your head.

HP:

``....I was implying that it is dalit’s right to choose whatever religion they like. .....
I know there is a huge debate in India about conversions.``


Actually, there is not much informed debate and whatever debate there is takes place at an emotional level.

I agree with you that it is the right of anyone, including a dalit, to choose whichever religion he or she wants to choose. But the society/nation too has a right of self-preservation, and one sometimes has to way individual versus societal rights. Never mind the hindus, if there are any large scale conversions to islam, which have not happened yet, it will even create a backlash against muslims and bring a party like the BJP or worse into power permanently, something that none of the secular-minded Indian would want.

It may not be politically correct to say so but the fact is that whenever muslims are in a majority in a viable geographic unit, they do not want to live under a non-muslim majority; we can give all kind of explanations for Pakistan in hindsight, but that was indeed the raison d`etre of Pakistan and this is why only muslim kashmiris- not pandits, not dogras, not christians, not sikhs, not buddhists - want to separate from India. Indians would be fools if they dont learn any lesson from history.

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soysauce #49
``Caste discrimination is really religious discrimination.``

Religious discrimination as you describe it is actually the one type of discrimination which caste discrimination does not encompass.

Caste discrimination encompasses social, political and economic discrimination, it includes discrimination in common or inter-caste worship(like bars on temple entry), it does not include religious discrimination. Unless you mean the state`s ban on animal/child sacrifice, no group however badly discriminated against otherwise, is prevented from worshipping their own deities, following their own religious customs, rituals and traditions.

#52 DM

heh heh.. i think dalits are smart, and are using all tools available in the political football. if HP arranged for non-madrassah convent style education using petro$, and 2 lb black-angus sirloin beef per week, you will see a lot of conversions to muslim (maybe saint might consider as well). i say go for conversion if you get the education-sirloin deal. beats dal-chawal prasad!

Yasirz

The only genetic/cultural superiority most North Indians recognize today is that of people in the South.

Dost mittar

While agreeing with you somewhat, I was implying that it is dalit’s right to choose whatever religion they like.
Obviously, you have a very limited knowledge about Sindh, Hari and Hari movement in Sindh. Hari is a Sindhi word for Kissan and their situation is not any different than any Kissan anywhere in the subcontinent. I would be glad to discuss that with you in an appropriate forum but their situation is nowhere near as bad as dalits situation in India is. Btw, some high-ranking ministers in Sindh are converts from just three and four of generations ago and come from hardworking and previously Hari families.

I know there is a huge debate in India about conversions. Especially Dalit and advasi conversions to Christianity and of course as per habit in India, Muslims are maligned in this issue too.
In one of my posts I mentioned that people posting here are implying that they know better than the dalits about what dalits need to do. The trace of that blatant racism and condescension is also evident from your post.
I never suggested that Dalit should convert to Islam. Personally, I don’t believe in any religion but unlike most Indian posters on this site, I abhor the idea that I need to disparage any religion to prove my point. It is evident from all accounts that most of dalit social, cultural and economic problems emanate from the dominant Hindu religion and if dalit reach a conclusion based on their personal or community consensus to change their religion, there should not be any impediments built to refrain them from making that decision.
Converting to Islam, Christianity, Sikh or Buddhism is a decision that Dalits need to make. Personally DM, We (you and me) are obviously not Dalit and are not even fully familiar with their plight as neither of us has personally encountered or had been subjected to generations of humiliation that dalit have faced in India.

KaalChakra,
More on this later….

Out of curiousity: Ive seen a lot of animosity/racism towards indians from south a.k.a Southies during my interactions with indians here in the us(Northerners offcourse)?Where the hell does that stem from?Does it pertain to a caste structure too or more towards supposed genetic/cultural superiority on the part of North Indians?
#50
`` point that terms like bhangi, choora, achhoot are seen and heard almost excusively in Pakistan``
Yes they`re our intellectual property.Please refrain from using them or face punitive action.

re: Soyasauce # 49

It was a liberating experience reading your post. For months I had been struggling to articulate an idea that you captured so simply - these `castes` are different `religions!` At least in the sense in which most non Indians thinks of religions. What dress one should wear, what festivals one should celebrate, what `god or God` one should worship, in which place and how, where one should go for pilgrimmage, and who one can marry or not - in the semitic sense THAT is religion! Our `castes` are indeed their `religions` then. No wonder Hinduism completely baffles most people used to thinking of religion in these traditional terms.

I wonder if you would be open to helping me clarify and firm up these ideas by exchanging a few emails. I would very much appreciate and be grateful for your time.


re: HP #50

Agreed with dost-mittar. That was a good post. However, as far as conversions into semitic religions are concerned, my conclusions are radically different.

As all people of Indic faiths have discovered, conversions of Indians into semitic religions are dramatic political events with deep even non-religious consequences for every one. Therefore, a very large number of issues have to be addressed upfront to inject individual-level and group-level honesty and security into this debate. Until then conversions into semitic religions must be entirely banned. We must do so quickly and in a way that minimizes the unavoidable damage to what Indic faiths have long recognized - a person`s right to leave his religion.

Soyasauce`s phenomenal insight actually eliminates the need for conversions. It also helps explain why so many people held on to their traditional `Hinduism` despite the dangers and disadvantages this decision brought to all Hindus for over a thousand years.

Luckily, when we take semitic religions completely off the table, we find that a person`s freedom to leave one`s religion is actually PRESERVED, not destroyed. India makes Buddhism and Sikhism - two of the greatest religions mankind has ever known - freely available to all humanity. Both these faiths reject the caste system as clearly as any semitic religion. Neither is beset with the enormous problems that accompany the non casteism of semitic religions. Both offer any reasonable and courageous person anywhere an opportunity to switch to a more rational religion.

However, we have shifted the focus from the natural, and otherwise rare to find, evolutionary tendencies within the Hindu society to the need for enforcing the freedom of religious conversion for people of all faiths. The latter is only one part of a much larger issue the Hindu society faces at this point in time.

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HP#50:

I really liked your post and applauded your interest in the dalits, till I reached towards the end, where it seemed like you are asking dalits to leave their religion to escape the hindu opression. I have many problems with that, and it is partly for the same reason that you ask them to leave; you are a muslim and I count myself as a hindu, in a cultural if not a religious sense.

But this is not the only reason. A dalit who leaves the hindu religion loses whatever protection the state gives him for his low status in the society, unless he converts to buddhism or sikhism, in which case the preferred treatment continues. Secondly, the status of a muslim mehtar in Bangladesh or a `bhangi` in Pakistan is no better, indeed things have improved in India to the point that terms like bhangi, choora, achhoot are seen and heard almost excusively in Pakistan. Could you honestly say that a haris in Sindh (many of whom are low caste hindus converted to islam) has a better chance than a dalit in India of escaping his bonds, let alone becoming a minister, chief minister or the president of your country (which is now happening all the time in India)? If not, these exhortation of dalits to leave their religion would be considered as nothing but an attempt to split and weaken the hindu society.

I have two views about the anti-conversion law. It goes against fundamental human rights and so I oppose it. I also oppose it because I consider potential conversion as the sword of domacles which should keep hanging above the hindu society so that it is forced to undertake the necessary reforms. I am, however, on practical grounds, opposed to conversion to islam though not to other religions. Why? Because the conversion to Islam has very serious and potentially dangerous political consequences. A few conversions in Assam and some districts of West Bengal and you may have a demand for another Pakistan. Remember, both Jinnah and Iqbal were hindus only a generation or two removed.

#50 by HP
Correction

“The reservation in govt jobs have helped approx 3.5 Dalit”

Should read “3.5 million Dalit.”

under pressure from the same people who ostensibly are dead set against the quotas

Shoud read “who ostensibly are ALSO dead set against the quotas”

I have this conjecture that since ``hinduism`` is an agglomeration of different religions/modes of worship, caste differences are by and large religious differences. (Dalits don`t have anything to do with brahmanism.) Caste discrimination is really religious discrimination. Everything else is just detail.

kaalchakra
The point was not whether people are strict or not but some people do practice religion and in India and Pakistan context a good majority practices religion. In dalits case, religion is important as the history of caste in India relates directly to Hindu religion.

It is reasonable to expect that some religious practices would disappear with the changing society but prohibiting Sati was not a change from within. It was enforced by law and it did not happen overnight. It is good that Hindus don’t practice it any more. India`s ancient caste system was abolished legally in the 1960s, it is still entrenched socially.
Islam allows four marriages but how many Muslims have four wives? (may be people with titles like jang do!). Similarly, Muslim Sharia says that people should wear their pants above their ankles but how many would like to look ridiculous? (except Dev Anand- he always wore them above his ankle.) The fact is that most of the population in religion dominated countries like India or Pakistan would prefer to follow what they recognize as religious edict or what they have learnt from their elders.

Now take the issue of quotas back again. I now tend to agree that the Indian business should be forced to accept quotas. The help to business can come in the form of tax exemptions. But the more compelling reason is that Dalits do contribute to business bottom-line. I read the number that Dalit spend is close to Rs. 300 billion (an estimate) on consumer purchases. Now this number is insignificant compared to Dalit population. 300 billion divided by 250 million Dalit and we get a paltry Rs.1200 per year per Dalit. If businesses get some 300 billion from Dalits, they do need to plow some portion of that money back in to the community it gets business from. The reservation in govt jobs have helped approx 3.5 Dalit that helps about 10-12% of the total Dalit population and if business picks up another 1 to 2 million jobs and reserves it for Dalit, it will be a significant move in changing socio-economic conditions of Dalits.

Of course, the economic benefit would help Dalit tremendously, but the real concern so far are the cultural barriers that have been put up by the upper classes.

India is a secular country as enshrined in its constitution. Like many other western democracies that are secular in nature, religion is an individual preference and state has no business in interfering in what one individual does with his or her religious beliefs. Countries like Pakistan that have no history of respecting and conforming to civil liberties or individual rights and would prefer to remain embroiled in religious sloganeering, attempt to stop people from practicing their beliefs then that is to be expected. However, if a country that has a proud tradition of being secular and presumably forbids the government machinery to interpret laws based on religion, seriously considers altering the fundamental human right to practice or switch to whatever faith people would like to practice then that clearly bags the question: whether that country still has some commitment to secularism?
I hope I am wrong here but presumably some states or the Indian union itself is seriously considering outlawing conversion. How does that jive with secularism? This issue is directly related with Dalit and if the state, under pressure from the same people who ostensibly are dead set against the quotas, changes law that take away the most fundamental right of the people, than the state’s integrity becomes questionable.
Dalit have a right to choose whatever religion they prefer. It is a choice based on the realities they face in every day life in India.

Providence in the fall of a sparrow, There’s a special -Shakespeare

dost-mittar #40 I agree with you in spirit.
So basically we have 3 options among which some or all could be followed-
a) Reservations
b)Affirmative Action sans reservation
c)Fostering of entrepreneurship

a) and b) are like a drop in the ocean and would not benefit the really poor people. Besides,the perception of division in society would only increase. This would be a big obstacle in going towards a casteless society.Besides, b) is very difficult to implement.
In my opinion, the most important thing that can be done for poverty alleviation is c), through radical education reforms and rural loan schemes.

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HP

we indoos dont condone casteism, we practice it at various levels, and have taught it to mooslims and xtians as well (they seemed to like it even if koran/bible is against it). now, if we were to forcast ``are dalits doomed``? i dont think so. will they be ``dominant`` in the sense that a dalit identity will be considered to be inherently good or something to be proud of? no. all indoos are trying to become brahmin (in education), warrior when fighting pakis, bania when dealing in global economy and artists (like the tradesmen). in the meanwhile, we do indulge in casteism and affirmative action.

Shivam:

Your article shows the entrenched nature of caste in the Hindu society in general and India in particular. While anyone with money can buy any property anywhere, and no seller will refuse a buyer who is willing to pay the highest price, it is true that even a poor upper caste hindu would rather go and buy a jhuggi in a slum than a better accomodation in a colony/mohalla which carries the stigma of being scheduled caste. And as you suggest, an ``uppity`` scheduled caste boy in a public school will still be harassed and teased.

But your article also shows some glimmer of hope. The fact that young upper caste boys did not know their own castes is revealing. The boys, when they got older, stopped their teasing. And neighbours, after initially shunning their `mochi` neighbour, eventually came round and accepted him as part of the community.

In an evolutionary society, especially one as tradition bound as India, change comes at a slow pace, unlike China where it came through a revolution. The state can act as a catalyst in this process. This is where importance of education comes into play. The state must improve resources to the govt. funded schools, even levy a fee on public schools, if necessary to improve the level of education in the public sector.

Affirmative action (NOT QUOTAS) in the private sector will be a positive step in this direction. This means the corporate sector assuming greater social responsibility and taking proactive measures to hire qualified and competent lower caste candidates in responsible positions in their companies to compensate for their lack of access to the social network available to upper caste candidates.

As you said it is irrelevant whether or not the caste system is sanctioned by vedas or any other scripture. It is also irrelevant whether or not it served a useful purpose in the past. The fact is that this practice is an anethema to the contemporary concepts of ethics and human rights.

The strength of the hindu society lies in its lack of rigidity and the ability to change, albeit slowly, with the needs of the times. Sati was sanctioned by religion and it is gone; widow remarriage was banned by religion and it is gone; dalits were not supposed to caste their shadows on upper castes and now dalit chief ministers and ministers are ordering upper castes to prostrate before them, and they do. So, will the caste system will also get diluted, slowly but surely.

And Hindus have every reason to be grateful in not being chained to a book which can neither be modified nor ignored.

> The four tiers of castes have been approved by the religion and people believe that to be the right thing to do hence there is a continuation of the caste system in India. If caste system was not approved by the religion itself, then how it still dominate the every day life in India?

This is a bogus argument. Caste system dominates Muslim society in the Indian subcontinent as well. Does Islam sanction it?

re: HP # 40

``Hindus do not follow religion strictly`` is a completely wrong way of thinking about Hindus and their religion. I don`t follow a number of religious practices dear to my parents but I am a strict Hindu.

Hindus can be good and true followers of their religion without ever reading Rigveda. They don`t have to go to any one kind of temple or any temple at all. Only a few verses are popular enough to be recited regularly by large numbers of Hindus. Those verses say nothing about caste.

Things you are focusing on are not `religion,` according to Hinduism. These are merely traditions, rituals, and practices that, Hinduism tells us, are always subject to the inescapable laws of Time. Caste-based system has indeed been a part of general Hindu life. But most Hindus recognize that Time has passed its verdict against this discriminatory sytem. Few Hindus see it as central to their religion anymore. Hindus can do so because Hinduism is an amazingly dynamic and intrisically strong religious and philosophical system.

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reservations in jobs and higher education will amount to zilch if dalits and other oppressed castes do not receive a solid primary and high school education. A dalit high school graduate who has poor grades will perform poorly in college and thereafter in the workplace. Net result being no real progress for the Dalits and loss in the form of inefficiency to the country. Govt. schools are free or nearly free to everyone. However the standards at these schools is so poor that they might as well not exist at all. Most Govt. run schools have absentee teachers who still continue to draw salaries. There should be large scale reform in Govt. sponsored primary and high school education. I think private schools too should be made to allocate a percentage of seats to people from the backward and scheduled castes. If all citizens are given a level playing field in the form of primary and high school education, then the best and the brightest irrespective of caste can take advantage of the premier educational institutions in the country, thus not only benefiting themselves and their families, but also increasing the productivity of the country.

There is clear theme emerging out of these posts here that:
1. Dalits are not being discriminated in India.
2. They should be denied quotas.
3. Any talk of favors to dalit amounts to anti-Indian nation.

How does this stack up against the reality on ground?

An argument has been made that since Pakistan army killed Bengalis, Indians have a right to do the same to dalits. This is strange. First, Dalit have been treated inhumanly for centuries and it is still going on, how does it relate to one-time incident that happened in any one country. Why Indians need inspiration from outside of their country to perpetuate an issue that is between Indians and India specific?
Another argument has been made that Indians do not follow religion strictly. That can’t fly very far really. There are people who go to mandirs regularly, people read religious books and recite verses regularly and a good number follows the religion pretty much in everyday life. What makes any body think that they don’t believe what their books clearly state and propagate as quoted on several dalit sites? The four tiers of castes have been approved by the religion and people believe that to be the right thing to do hence there is a continuation of the caste system in India. If caste system was not approved by the religion itself, then how it still dominate the every day life in India?
People may live in denial but the fact of the matter is that caste system gets its sanctions and approvals from the Hindu religion itself and since one religion dominates the Indian society, the caste system continues to flourish.

There was a time when White supremacist in the US claimed and some still do that blacks are not intellectually capable to manage affairs hence there is a need control them. In South Africa the same argument was used to perpetuate apartheid. The British colonist implied that their Indian subjects are not ready for self rule and are intellectually inferior.

When some posters here claim that:
1. Lower castes or Dalits have messed up in TN and Upper castes are leaving that states.
2. Some claim that Bihar and UP are in decline because Dalits have control over those two states.
Basically what is implied here that lower castes are not capable of managing affairs and they are screwing up everywhere. Therefore, the upper castes need to maintain control. This argument is at par with whites racists in the US/South Africa and India itself where British used similar arguments to deny people their basic rights.

This is blatant racism.

Apparently, Indians condone racism when it comes to Dalits. In fact, the trend of arguments suggests that the posters are basically racist themselves.
It is evident from all posters that they oppose quotas vehemently. Now quotas technically and socially have very small impact on general population. A population must first have means to acquire education and as the number suggests approx. 70% of Dalits don’t even have access to financial means to even think about providing education to at least one kid in the family, the quota becomes a really minor effort in alleviating social and economic backwardness of Dalits.

If the upper castes are not willing to concede on just a small issue of quota, how Dalits can expect economic and social parity with the rest of the population in India, which would require tremendous effort, and that massive effort is not even planned.
In any event, Dalits are doomed to continue in the same situation that they are in now for the next umpteenth of years.

More to come….

Re one of Amit`s earlier posts, the comparison of the caste system with Latin American countries is kind of apt. Take Mexico for example. Before the Spanish conquistadores arrived, there were populous native nations, like the Aztecs and Maya, with a well established culture of their own. The Spanish took over in spite of much fewer numbers, due to their technological superiority. So now you have a light-skinned ruling elite, mainly descendants of landed gentry and concentrated in urban areas. But most Mexican don`t look very spanish - most look Native American, or of mixed blood. I suppose the reason for this is Spanish genes made a fairly small contribution to the mexican gene pool. Culturally, however, the country and its people are predominantly european - untill one goes out of the cities and into the remoter areas. The more romote the place, the more likely are the people to look Native American, to practise a Catholicism mixed with earlier beliefs, and in some cases speak their own languages - at which point it becomes hard to distinguish them from the surviving pockets of ``pure`` native people.

In India too, there is a light-skinned, numerically small elite, concentrated mostly in the more ``mainstream`` areas. In the countryside, people start looking different, many have their own dialects, entire villages or districts inhabited by a certain ``caste`` appear, which may speak its own language and practise a religion they call Hinduism but with deities unknown anywhere else, and finally blend smoothly into neigbouring ``adivasi` tribes.

In Mexico, too, in its early days, there were attempts to foist a ``caste`` system on the people - on top were the Castilian nobility (most clergy belonged to this group as well), other Spaniards, then people of mixed blood (Mestizos) and finally ``Indios``.

I would think this is bound to happen when a small but powerful invader takes over a populous land, able to impose their culture, but not prevent the natives from interpreting it thir way, and desperate to keep their identity in the midst of the conqured masses. its also more plausible than the classic theories of aryan invaders arriving en masse, driving the native Dravidians south, and becoming the ancestors of most north indians.

I`m in no way trying to defend the caste system - its indefensible - merely trying to explore the origins of it.

shivamvij, nb, and HP

Many Pakistanis are Hindus too. Many other Pakistanis are the children of `Hindu civilization.` Each has a right to make a contribution as we use our newly-found freedom to rediscover, refine, and constantly reformulate ourselves.

The problem of caste is still pervasive among us. Despite the progress, many of our people still suffer from its extreme and intolerable forms. Besides, we belong to a civilization too dynamic to turn a blind eye to our collective issues: How can we speed up progress and reform? How can we make this process more just and its effects more widespread? What should be our collective (formal) stands? How should we proceed so as to bring bring more of our people on board?

Whether other civilizations are just or not matters little in this debate except in our following the wisdom of our sages -

``Let good thoughts come to us from everyside.``

Best regards.

saint #32, mumbaikar #35, HP

``HP...its none of your business .Get lost. Doesn`t matter what Rig Veda or any hindu scripture said or didn`t say - Hindus are not obliged to obey their ancient religious books unlike muslims who are expected to lead their lives according to some 1500 year old manual..``

Again, irrespective of what others are required to do or not do, Hinduism is not Rigveda. it is the constantly changing, dynamic, multidimensional, and sometimes contradictory wisdom of our people. Rigveda lit a lamp when much of the earth was still covered in darkness, but today it is not the only source of our light.

HP, if Rig veda really said the following then I disown it.

“Black skin is impious & lowly`` Sanskrit : < ``dA`saM va`rNaM a`dharaM gu`hA`kaH`` > “
Rig Veda II.12.4
“Indra protected in battle the Aryan worshipper, he subdued the lawless for Manu, he conquered the black skin.``
[ Rig Veda I.130.8 ]

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After reading this article I was prompted to post this well written aricle

Crutches for the able-bodied

As the new dispensation at the centre settles in government, they have announced a plethora of policy changes – from detoxification of education, disbandment of divestment ministry to levying of cess on tax-payers. The initial euphoria and the desire to do something are natural. After all, this is the time to convert election promises to policy decisions. However, in the photogenic spectacle of dashing MPs obliging the paparazzi by posing in their newly bought ‘ethnic’ dresses, an important event did not get the due attention. This was the release of Common Minimum Program document by United Progressive Alliance. The document is intended to serve as a policy guideline for the incumbent government –the esoteric ‘what to do’. The exulting ministers have been left to grapple with the ‘nominal’ exoteric issue of ‘how to do’. The CMP promises the moon to every child who cares to ask for it, but it promises something more – “legislation for one-third reservation for women in Vidhan Sabhas and in the Lok Sabha” and “issue of affirmative action, including reservations in the private sector”. The only word common in the two sentences is reservation, a word that will have strong influence on the direction we are likely to move in as a nation.

The word reservation and its politically correct euphemism “affirmative action” have been a part of our lexicon since Independence. The constituent Assembly spent considerable time over the broader issue of empowerment of SC/STs, and felt that quotas should be reserved in the legislature, education and public sector. The idea was to tackle the issue of discrimination against these classes, crassly labelled as ‘Shudras’ and ‘ati-shudras’ in ‘Chaturvarna’ system. The leading lights of Indian freedom struggle spent considerable time to improve the condition of these communities. Ambedkar and Gandhi differed about the methodology of this change, but concurred that a change, nevertheless, is required.

The inhuman exploitation of so-called ‘untouchables’ itself was an Indian avatar of slavery, an abominable practice that was rampant throughout the world. From time to time, Indian leaders pondered over the issue and tried to devise means to end this isolation. Post-independence, reservation was considered prudent as it would guarantee greater interaction of marginalized sections with the rest of the society. This was also done to tackle the ‘religious’ angle of the problem- the presence of these sections was considered ‘polluting’. Even meritorious people from these sections were forced to the margins of society, as Ambedkar realized much to his chagrin. The “affirmative action” was not an end in itself, but was supposed to be coupled with efforts to improve the general condition of the under-privileged.

Like all other noble ideas, reservation was dirtied in the rough and tumble of politics. The government failed to deliver on the promise of upliftment of these sections, and the reservation created a creamy layer. After the mud settled on the initial tumultuous years of Indian democracy, an entrenched lobby prevailed on the government to continue with this policy. The fruits of this policy were increasingly getting limited to ‘privileged’ weaker sections; what chance does the son of a farm labourer have against a Commissioner’s son?

The tool was also used by successive governments to cover their failures in bringing social justice to the poorest of poor. Any criticism of reservation policy was labelled as ‘anti-dalit’ and deemed a politically incorrect proposition. The political parties also washed their hands off the need to improve social conditions by pointing to reservation. Needless to say, this atmosphere stifled rather than encourage education and empowerment of dalits. The atrocities continued, the creamy layers attained enviable levels of prosperity and refused to let go the crutches of reservation. This lop-sided development has continued to this day. Whereas a huge majority of dalits remain poor and ostracized, a celebrated minority monopolizes all benefits given in the name of social justice.

Meanwhile, the tool of reservation has become a panacea for all political parties to deflect attention from their governance failures. Any form of dissent or disenchantment is bribed with promise of reservation. So, now we have reservations for backward castes, economically weaker sections of higher castes, and women; the reservation for Muslims and Christians may follow suit. It is distressing to note that if left unchecked, this trend of reserving seats would lead to a 100% reservation based on composition of society. That this invariably feels to solve the problem is conveniently overlooked. So, the creamy layers have hijacked reservations, strong people use their wives as proxies for panchayat elections, and the monster of casteism is stronger than ever before.

The proponents of reservation theory point to the innate disadvantage that sections who are offered this sop suffer from. So, dalits exploited for centuries can’t be expected to compete with the ‘savarna’ classes in the cut-throat world, the murky world of politics deters women from participating in the political process, and the economically weaker sections don’t have the means to educate their children; the rambling goes on and on. Time and effort is not spent on finding the root cause of these problems and fixing them. So, criminalization of politics continues unabated, poor are not given opportunities to improve their lot, and violence against backward sections is still in vogue.

The theory of ‘in-born handicaps’ is ridiculous and contrary to all the evidence from real life. Given the right circumstances, there is no reason why a group or community can not perform as well as some other. Shiv Nader, a billionaire Information Technology czar is a ‘dalit’ and so is the tennis icon Vijay Amritraj. Premjis and Pallonjis are ‘minorities’ and so is our president and prime-minister. India is one of the few countries in the world to have been led by a woman, Mrs. Gandhi. Even today, women are leading four important states and another was about to be a prime-minister before she turned down the offer. It would be a mockery of common-sense to run down the successes of these people from ‘weaker’ sections as exceptions. The fact is, given the right environment, every individual irrespective of their caste, creed, religion or sex can achieve the very best in life.

It is highly demeaning to label a whole group of people as unworthy of achieving things on their own. The fair environment can be developed only by investing more in education, cutting the leakages due to corruption and enforcing law and order to end systematic exploitation. Rather than indulging in meaningless gimmicks and propounding retrogressive policy measures, the government should concentrate on fending off evils like nepotism, discrimination, criminalization, lack of education opportunities and corruption. Only then we can realize the dream of a just and egalitarian society with ample opportunities for those who care to grab.

Till then, doors will keep closing on the meritorious; and the able-bodied will continue to be offered crutches.

by Rahul Malviya a Chowk Member

harimau #22:
``How many jet fighters at $50 - $100 million a copy crash in a month because of poor maintenance by your caste-based employees with no sense of responsibility? Won`t it be better to recruit these OBCs, tell them to stay at home and collect their salaries while qualified and committed personnel are recruited for the real job so that some 30 planes a year and the lives of about an equal number of planes can be saved?``
Whoa! Are you saying that all military plane crashes are due to poor maintenance by `OBC employees`? And does the poor maintenance have anything to do with their caste?
Can you back your statement with data?

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Imran #17,

Hinduism does not recognize any set of people as more equal than others. You seem to be harping on one thing over and over again.

Muslims in the subcontinent are as casteist as Hindus. So, get over tom tomming Islam here.

Shivam Vij,
I read the article in Countercurrent also!
The problem is not education or the quota but the social status of dalit.

“Scheduled Castes” and “Scheduled Tribes”, got together and built a building called Gaurav Apartments in the east Delhi locality of Patparganj. About two-third flats in Gaurav Apartments are occupied by Dalits and ‘tribals’. The remaining flats remain vacant as upper caste (UC) individuals are forewarned about this by (UC) property dealers.”

That’s where the problem lies. It is the discrimination! it is the treatment of Dalit as second class citizens in their own country and this treatment is ostensibly approved by the religion as well as the society.
The question is whether quotas alone can alleviate the problems that dalit face in India.
Here are just a few quotes that anybody can get with google.

“Days ahead of Bill Clinton`s visit to Agra, a Dalit woman was stripped and beaten to death by two men in broad daylight even as villagers stood by helplessly and watched the gory spectacle to its tragic end. Twenty-three-year-old Sukhviri Devi of Nagla village in Agra district made the mistake of crossing the path of Virendra Pal and Vijay Pal, carrying an empty matka. The price she paid for it was death.”

“In a series of bloody and cruel displays of ferocious Hindu fundamentalism, fanatic Brahmin terrorists killed at least 61 innocent civilians on December 2, 1997. More than 100 heavily armed Brahmin terrorists, belonging to the Hindutva militia group known as the Ranvir Sena, secretly entered two Dalit villages in Jehanabad district and embarked upon a savage display of Hindu fanaticism.”
`` Like other senas before it, the Ranvir Sena enjoys considerable political patronage. The sena is said to be dominated by politicians from various parties, including Congress, the Janata Dal, and the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP).``
Human Rights Watch, World Report 1999.

“At least 11 labourers were killed when hired goons of a sand contractor fired at them late on Thursday night, at village Hasanpura Balughat in Lakhisarai district, 100 km south-east of the State capital.
The victims belonged mainly to the Dalit and backward castes and were engaged in sand mining work on behalf of a contractor. Even after 20 hours of the incident, police have not made any breakthrough in either identifying the architect of the massacre. “

“Black skin is impious & lowly`` Sanskrit : < ``dA`saM va`rNaM a`dharaM gu`hA`kaH`` > “
Rig Veda II.12.4
“Indra protected in battle the Aryan worshipper, he subdued the lawless for Manu, he conquered the black skin.``
[ Rig Veda I.130.8 ]



More on this later….

kaalchakra #18
``Real power has reached into the hands of the`lower caste` Hindus after centuries. It will take many of them some time before they transcend the apparently exclusive concerns of their castes. ``

Agreed. In UP/Bihar, one would be happy enough if `lower caste` leaders use their power to be genuinely constructive towards people of their own communities.

For instance in UP, one wonders if the SP-BSP years have resulted in improvement in Dalit literacy esp of Dalit women? Improvement in maternal and infant mortality? Improvement in responsiveness of police/justice system to abuses by `upper castes`? Improvement in Dalit access to water and land resources? Greater number of Dalits elected to local bodies? Better employment figures? Any quantifiable gains apart from holding power ? ( the sort of questions which governments elsewhere in India also need to face).

Caste-based politics ultimately needs do more than mobilizing protest against others, it needs mobilize the community to set positive goals and standards for itself. Case in point Tamil Nadu - after 35 years of `lower castes` being in power, 75-80% reservation in jobs and education for `lower castes`, wholesale migration of `forward castes` out of the state, politics is still about `discrimination by brahmins`.

And this solely ``gimme`` variety ``egalitarianism`` also encourages the `lower castes` to practice exclusion of Dalits. How much more time will it take in Tamil Nadu for caste concerns to be transcended - it is currently running at 35+ years and counting.

It is said that a man with a hammer sees every problem as a nail. We in India have quotas/reservation as the tool and so the solution to lack of decades of economic growth under the Commie system of Bandit Nehru/VK Krishna Menon/Indira Gandhi was to allocate the economic pie according to some caste or religious basis.

It is well-known that the Nizams ruled the Hyderabad state as their personal fiefdom with all positiions in the state going only to Muslims. Despite that, these Koran-waving, four-wives-marrying, Hajj-subsidy-demanding, talaq-talaq-talaq-divorcing good-for-nothings did absolutely zilch about upgrading their skills through modern education. Now the state of Andhra is reserving 7% of all land to be allocated to farmers (this is government land to be given away absolutely free!) for Muslims. Why is there no reservations FOR brahmins who exploited the Dalits with less ruthless means? What should the brahmins have done: kill the Dalits, carry away their wives and children as slaves and war booty, etc., as the Islamic thugs did?

The situation of dalits is partially related to their socio-economic status - landless workers, sweepers, unskilled workers. They do not make much money. In that sense their situation is no different from underclasses in most societies.

The situation of dalits in India varies from state to state. In urban India all Indians eat out of the same plate. Most of the hotel workers in Chennai and Bangalore are dalits or other lower castes. Most upper caste youths are working as software engineers. I do not think anybody eating in those hotels really cares.

Hindu society can be classified into three groups - upper castes, backward castes and SC/ST. Upper castes are 25%. Backward Castes are 40%. SC/ST are 20%. Minorities are 15%. If democracy is driven to its logical conclusion the backward castes will gain power. They have in Tamilnadu since 1967. They have taken power in UP and Bihar finally. To some degree in the short to intermediate term I forsee a bigger fight between backward castes and SC/ST.

To the degree upper castes quit farming and move into white collar professions. They will come into lesser conflict with SC/ST. It has happened in many parts of urban India where upper caste yuppies need SC people to be babysitters, do their laundry, wash their clothes, drive their cars etc.

There is a problem of attitudes with certain upper caste Hindus. I think UP, Bihar have pretty regressive elites which has led to the rise of Kanchi Rams. Passage of time will soften those attitudes.

As time goes on I expect Dalit leaders to forge alliances with other communities to improve their lot.

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It looks like India is getting more caste aware than it was when I was a student. In all my years of schooling there was only one person who asked me ``what caste you are from?``. As far as Yadavs go,all the Yadavs I knew were fairly well off. In fact I was quite surprised when I learnt that they were a ``backward caste``. I have studied in UP too but then my school in Nainital was never castist like the one you described in Lucknow. In one of the schools where I studied the home food was bought at lunch-time by a Harijan/Dalit who used to force feed me at times. Neither my Brahmin parents nor me had any issue with this.
Now after saying all this I cannot deny that yes there is a caste problem. In college I met students who did not like mixing with the tribal or dalit students. And in certain states caste is still a major issue. But my experience in the bigger cities has been that people really have no time for caste. You use the crowded public transport then you can`t be choosy with whom you travel. Business deals need to be done, money is to be made then nobody asks caste affilations. Housing? In most of these colonies nowadays you don`t really know who your neighbour is nor do you have the time. A landlord in Delhi is more likely to discriminate against a Punjabi as compared to a Malayali.
In some respect I agree with Saint & Harimau here, reservation in educational institutes needs to have an economic criteria attached too, otherwise like it or not the system is being exploited. The ``creamy layer`` seems to be garnering the benefits.
Admiration for Mayawati? That woman has her own interests in mind and the amount of money she has been making...
That said with the political power slowly shifting to the Dalits, within the next decade or so expect to see the first Dalit Prime Minister of India.

shivam, I can only say caste exclusivism and discrimination in cities,though undesirable,is certainly not unexplainable.It is the direct fallout of affirmative action.One cant expect those who are shortchanged to just grin and bear it. With the proposed reservations in the private sector, the chasms are going to be wider, and there are other hidden costs as well.
There are other ways to bring about a more egalitarian society.

So, Shivam, now that you`ve succeeded in telling HP and his cohorts how superior they are because a lot of Pakistanis on chowk are racist, not casteist, what do you think the point was?

[So how do you solve the problem of Dalits? Indian industry, despite its pretensions of corporate social responsibility, is unlikely to take initiative. Unlike American corporations that believe in “diversity”, hire and train individuals from minority communities (including immigrants from India), Indian industry is unlikely to volunteer. The government must step in, as it intends to do very soon.]

Hello, what world do you live in?

American corporations don`t believe in diversity; they believe in excellence. If a black man could do a better job than a redneck, they would hire the black man. That might not have been the case 40 years back but it is the case now. They are not hiring Indian immigrants because they are brahmins or chamars or because they need to be represented. They hire Indians so that they can squeeze more work out of them than they are able to out of American workers, at least until the immigrants get their green cards.

So, the Indian government must step in, eh? Not being content with the fcuk-ups that we see all over India, you want more fcuk-ups thisa time in the private industry. Who are you or the Indian government to tell a man who is investing his money whom he should hire? Exactly what has been the record of all those government institutions with mandated representation for SC/ST/MBC/OBCs? How many hundreds of billions of rupees have been lost by the government`s companies in the manufavturing and banking sectors over the last 50 years? How many jet fighters at $50 - $100 million a copy crash in a month because of poor maintenance by your caste-based employees with no sense of responsibility? Won`t it be better to recruit these OBCs, tell them to stay at home and collect their salaries while qualified and committed personnel are recruited for the real job so that some 30 planes a year and the lives of about an equal number of planes can be saved?

[In both cases, the entry of ‘low’ caste individuals and their families into the (UC) “mainstream” took place because of reservations in government jobs. Before this could adequately happen across India, the Indian state decided that jobs and resources were to be transferred to the private sector.]

Exactly what is meant by ``the Indian state decided that jobs and resources were to be transferred to the private sector``? Any private sector companies exist because individuals invested their hard-earned money and their time in building up a company. If operating a private company for profit is not a right, you are talking the Communist Russian and Chinese models. This discredited economic model has been abandoned in all the formerly Communist countries but people like you cannot get over your fascination with some frikking a$$hole of a bureaucrat telling you what you and cannot do with your life. What next, a government bureaucrat telling you on what days you can sleep with your wife? How would you like that? How about if a government bureaucrat tells you that you need to have your wife impregnated by someone from another caste/linguistic or ethnic region in the interests of homogeneization of the population and elimination of distinction? How would you like that?

Your prescription is that government knows best. The last 50 years is proof that it only knows how to keep itself in absolute power over the citizens of the state.

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Re:HP#15 and Imran

There are all kinds of laws on the books in India against casteism and caste based discrimination is completely outlawed. From political leaders like Gandhi to religious leaders, everyone speaks out against caste. Some regions like West Bengal have managed to dilute caste issues completely while other areas like UP and Bihar are still struggling with it. In spite of all the progress, there is still residual casteist feelings, particularly in small towns and villages. My point is that discrimination based on skin color, race and caste is so embedded in our psyches that even people like Gandhi cannot eliminate it. Even religions like Islam and Sikhism with all their egalitarian teachings cannot eliminate casteism among its desi followers, what to speak of hinduism.

One thing that is making a lot of impact is the voting power of the dalits. The rise of the Mulayam Singh Yadavs and Laloo Prasad Yadavs of the world shows that the dalits are flexing their demographic muscle. They are now occupying political positions of power and hence are controlling the levers of power. So in one sense, democracy is managing to overturn the centuries old fair skinned minority domination. But it is still an uphill task. All I will say to you Pakistanis is before you point fingers at us hindus, would you be more egalitarian towards your dalits? Pakistanis were not exactly very friendly to the Bengalis whom they considered racially inferior.

Question to all those who comments about discrimination in Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism and Christianity my question is

Does any of those religions propagate religious classes or divide followers on the bases of cast or occupation?
Is there few are more equal to Almighty on the basis of there last name?
Is any of those religions stopping there followers in mingling with each other because of there cast/last name/occupation?

The only religion which preaches all those things is Hinduism, which was apparently the dominant religion of the united India. For the rest of religious minorities it is unavoidable not to be influenced in your personal life from the majority rituals in a homogeneous society. The discrimination you guys are talking about in other religions at individual level is basically driven from there not by the very own roots of those religions. One can quote hundred of thousands examples about religious equality at personal level in Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism and Christianity.

Sadna

Real power has reached into the hands of the`lower caste` Hindus after centuries. It will take many of them some time before they transcend the apparently exclusive concerns of their castes.


Shivam Vij

You wrote an article full of great hope for our people. The changes you described are indeed afoot. Neither Gandhi nor Ambedkar lost. Both won very very impressive social, political, and legal battles. By writing this article, you have followed their honored, reformist traditions. Praise is due to you, my friend.

Amit,
I am kind of surprised at your comments. It appears to me that you are attempting to trivialize the issue. It is not you alone but every Indian that has posted on this board, has attempted to point fingers at other countries and nation to justify what’s happening to dalits in India. The article specifically talks about treatment to Indians in India and here we have people trying to equate that with issues in Pakistan and South America.
Most of the posters on this site live in the US and it is only the second largest democracy in the world behind India. What they do with democracy and freedom of speech in the US is evident to all. Every issue no matter how uncomfortable it is is comprehensively discussed and people discuss it to death. Now India is not exactly at par with the US in any way but it is an established democracy and freedom of speech is a birthright for every citizen. That means that Indians have the ability to discuss any issue that matters to their country in detail in any forum. But what they chose to do? Ignore it, hide behind smoke screens, point fingers at other, and not even acknowledge the issue at all. How much attention this issue gets in Indian newspapers compared to the Indian Muslims or the rights of Kashmiri Pundits? Not much!

Yes! You can claim that I am from Pakistan and I may not understand the problem but when 250 million human beings are involved that issue does not belong to India alone. 250 million is more than Pakistan’s population; it is almost a country right behind the US in population alone.
Dalit claim that Dalit are the original Indian, but do they even get the treatment those aborigines in Australia and the American Indian in the US get? No! The situation is far too worst in India.
Religion may have provided all the taboos and social prejudices. It may have propagated and supported the caste system but a religion is as good and as bad as people following it. Am I to assume that Indians in the current India, in this 21st century believe that caste system is irreversible? Or is it a system they are not willing to change or do any thing about it?
In theory and by constitution India is not even a religious country so invoking religion to avoid an issue is like being an ostrich.
I am not saying that what I have read does not show that India has not made any progress in the caste and Dalit issues. They have! This article clearly displays that there are a percentage of people that have been helped with some programs but what is that percentage? I doubt that it is even one percent of the size of the problem.

This article also shows that despite gaining some social benefits, dalits are still looked down upon and ridiculed in public institutions. Is there any law against this kind of humiliation in India?
Are they really considered goonda and badmaash like this article points out?

Once a number of years ago, while visiting Lucknow, I got to know about a scientific/technological infrastructure institution(don`t want to be more specific) which had fallen upon bad days because no initiative was being taken by its head to upgrade /manage it better. The reason was that Ms Mayawati who was CM at the time would allow only a Dalit to head the institution. And the person thus appointed had no other interest in the institution except to preside as its head.

As your description indicates, there is good reason why BSP/ UP Dalit rhetoric is the way it is. (Searching around for exact wording) Kanshi Ram`s/BSP`s philosophy is ```Political power is the master key to all other doors`` . I just wish having attained power, Dalits and Yadavs would now move one step forward from simply enjoying that power and become genuinely constructive wrt their own constituency and wrt UP. That will greatly accelerate the process of joota maaro`ing the tilak, tarazu and talwar.

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Why? Just so that I knew what generation I was dealing with, but I realised that when your classmate`s parents were from the post-Mandal era, you`re fairly young. That`s all.
I would also like to say that as an MP person, I have watched UP degenerate before my eyes, so perhaps you did see more casteism than I did. Friends who lived in the hostel didn`t care who they shared with, and before you ask, I did have huge birthday parties with much of my class, including, now that I think of it, all castes there.

Chowk is my favourite South Asian website and it`s great to see people react to my article. While it is impossible to reply all of them, I want to comment on this debate linking Hinduism with caste. The link is no doubt undeniable, but that was not thepoint of my article. My article is not but history but the present; not about rural areas but The City, where we think we DON`T discriminate on caste lines. Caste discrimination in urban India is so hidden and subtle that it`s worse than caste violence in villages, where you expect it.

Fighting over caste vis-a-vis religion is pointless. Those who think casteism affects only Hinduism should do some more Googling on the subject. Despite conversion many generations ago, caste discrimination continues in an institutionalised form in all religions in India and the rest of South Asia.

And #6, `nb`, why do you want to know my age. I feel at least as old as the history that I learnt in those stupid NCERT books. You could say I was born in 1857.

I think, it is just the interaction with Muslims and Westerners that urges Hindus to look at their `castic` society otherwise they neither have inclination nor desire to change it; it includes means both type of Hindus - those at receiving end and those at the giving end. I think you people should be proud of your heritage and stick to it. There is a Punjabi proverb that says that one shouldn`t slap his own face red if he sees someone else`s red face; so if caste system has served a useful purpose in the past then it will do the same in the future as well. It is a divine mandate - and sometimes we do not understand the depth of it in our limited mental capacity.

Re:HP#9

Casteism is very similar to racism except that it gets the additional sanction of religion to make it even more rigid and difficult to eradicate. I believe that we desis are basically one of the most racist people on earth. Take any Indian or Pakistani. We crave for the white skin, light eyes, caucasian type features. Our movie stars represent these fantasies. Our choice for marriage partners reflects these cravings. We automatically tend to favor lighter complexioned people. It is programmed in our genes for millenia. Conversely we look down upon dark complexioned people with blunt features.

Our pathologies have probably derived from the fact that fairer skinned people have always conquered and ruled the subcontinent in spite of being small minorities. Whether it is the aryans, brahmins, rajputs or afghans, turks or the brits, it is essentially fairer skin defeating the darker skin in any conflict. Casteism is nothing more than the manifestation of this mindset. It is terrible in today`s context of secularism, democracy and human rights, but that is our legacy in the subcontinent. While hindus are certainly guilty of this, I have seen that Pakistanis are even more racist than Indians. One Pakistani friend told me that one of his Pakistani friends married an African-American in New York and had the guts to actually take his wife with him to Pakistan. She had converted to Islam. When he met his family, his parents gasped and said - ``Yeh, kis bhangi ko utha ke le aaye? (Which sweeper did you pick up)``. This is our desi mindset. Nothing much we can do. Hopefully with education and development, we can change.

Pakistanis are generally not well informed about India. Mostly, they don’t have as much interest in India as Indians do in Pakistani affairs. Amazingly, a majority of hits on Pakistani English newspapers come from India and the number of hits from the US suggests that a good number of readers are other than Pakistani. I think Omar Qureshi can easily provide the stats for Dawn.
I have some interest in India but I don’t read Indian newspapers for months. I did read Indian newspapers for couple of days during and after the Gujarat riots but I found those accounts so repulsive that I stop reading them at all.
Most of the Pakistanis are not fully familiar with social and religious problems in India. I had the feeling that things are not okay with Muslims in India but thought that is to be expected in a poor country where several groups clash for limited economic opportunities. Until the horrors of Gujarat brought to fore the kind of hatred both communities have for each other.
Recently, on this site a poster Dalit posted a few articles from the net. I followed those links and then I did some research of my own. It took me weeks to comprehend the nature of the problem and how Indian media attempts to hide it, at least the English media. I obviously can’t read any other Indian language. Internet covers only about ten percent of information from the third world countries so there is whole slew of information about treatment of dalits that has not even been made available to this new media.

I must admit my ignorance. After reading dalit sites and other facts, I found out that dalit outnumber Muslims in India and are approx 250 million. Unlike Muslims that are concentrated in certain areas, dalits are everywhere in India. The problems that dalit face in India completely overshadows Muslim problems that gets more press. What is happening to Dalit in India is much more horrendous than any Gujarat. Gujarat happens once in a while but dalits are going thru a systematic humiliation for centuries and it does not seem that there is an end to it in sight.

Dalit problem is not that some jat would not marry arian or arian wont marry Rajput. It is not even a problem of Spanish/Portuguese VS. the original tribes in South America. People don’t marry outside of their own environments, when they do it is an exception. But people do rape and take advantage of people of any color, caste or creed if they have the ability to that. That’s why every single black in the US has some white blood but not many consummated marriages to show for.
Dalit problem is not a marriage problem, it is a cultural equivalency problem and it is an issue of treating all human being equally. Any attempt to hogwash human problem under social prejudices is the worst kind of hypocrisy and it is the responsibility of any government or all social groups to find ways to eliminate it.

Until I understood the problem somewhat, I also felt that quota is bad and it should not happen and I think I posted some thing of similar nature on DM’s article couple of months back. After that I tried to study this problem even more and my sad conclusion is that India and Indians have not done enough to bring disadvantaged people in to the mainstream. Muslims and Dalits are about 400 million in population. This population is about the third largest country in the world itself.
I also tried to find out what Indian government has done about it. Constitution, quota and few more govt sponsored program and that is the extent of what India has done for 400 million people, 400 million Indians a good 40% of its population. Even if we leave Muslims aside as they represent the centuries of exploitation by the foreign invaders and Indians may have legitimate gripe about them, but what about Dalit? They are for all practical purpose Hindu. If religion is the basis of privilege in India then why some Hindu humiliate other Hindus just because they do menial work and why are they destined to do menial work only?
Agreed that centuries old prejudices will not go away overnight but who said you cannot make the effort? Looking at the size of the problem, 250 million plus and a centuries old system, has the effort so far put forward by the Independent India enough? It has not even begun.

I also looked at myself in the mirror in an attempt to find out where I stand on this issue. The litmus test was; did I know any dalit in my life? Only a few people barely showed up on radar doing cleaning and other chores in our house, I can honestly say that now I don’t even remember their names and some of them spent years in our family home.
Then I asked myself would I have kept some social contact with them or would I have ever invited them to my dining table? I realized that I would not have done anything of that sort.

That made me realize that I am as guilty as other Indians. So I am not blaming anybody but I feel that I wish I was aware of this issue, which I never was, when I was in Pakistan. In Pakistan dalits are limited in numbers. But in India they are everywhere, how could anybody hide 250 million people and deprive them of basic human rights and still call the country an inheritor of one the most enlightened civilization in this world?
Is quota enough to bring those poor souls back to the civilization?

re: casteism in non-Hindu religions in the subcontinent

I have personally witnessed discrimination and clear bigotry and bias within the Islamic, Christian and Sikh religions in the subcontinent based on caste. In Islam for example, the Syeds consider themselves a class apart and above everyone else. Syeds tend to be from all ``racial`` groups. These ``racial`` groups claim descent from Turk, Persian or Arab ancestors. Next in line are non-Syed ``foreign`` descendants. Then come the ``native`` high-caste and low-caste land and cattle owning converts such Rajputs, Jats, Gujars, Ahirs, Meos etc. At the bottom are the sheikhs (Dalit and other low caste converts) who are expected to serve and be subservient to all the others.

Sikhism, like Islam, does not sanction discrimination on any basis, much less on the basis of caste. But casteism, female infanticide, honor killings, racial and language discrimination is among the highest within the Sikh community. I have personally been at the receiving end of some of this bigotry. Modern day Sikhs are quite obsessive about caste and usually do not intermarry with Sikhs from different castes. Interestingly, supposedly low caste (Jat) Sikhs are at the top of the hierarchy and bully all others. It is also interesting that unlike in Islam, where descendants of Muhammad (Syed) have influence and power, in Sikhism, there is no significance attached the Gurus` descendants and family lines. (None of the Sikh Gurus were Jat; they were predominantly of Khatree origin, while I believe Guru Amar Das was of Brahmin ancestry). The hierarchy within Sikhism is something like Jat-Rajput-Khatri-Ramgharia-Dalit; in decreasing order of power and influence.

Christianity, for all its evangelism, has not escaped the clutches of caste and race. Through the four centuries or so of European influence in India, there has formed a distinct hierarchy within Christianity. First come the descendants of supposedly pure European blood, people who have no native blood. This class more or less left India when European rule came to an end. Then come the Anglo-Indians, a terms used to denote all descendants of mixed European and Indian relationships and marriages. This class of people consider themselves as being white and the guardians of Christianity and European values within India. Huge swathes of this community has also emigrated abroad, leaving mostly their poor, elderly and uneducated behind. Then come the land-owning, well off christian converts, mostly in South India, who are proud of their language and origins. Rajasekhar Reddy, the current CM of Andhra Pradesh is from this class. Last in this hierarchy come the Dalit Christians who to their credit have taken advantage of their conversion to Christianity and utilized the missionary educational institutions well. The Anglo-Indians do not mix with Dalit Christians much and do not intermarry with them. In villages, it is not uncommon for Dalit Christians to be mobile between Hinduism and Christianity, depending on the incentives provided to them at any particular point in time in terms of reservations in jobs, education etc.

Re:#4

Well, I believe Pakistan has a lot of casteism and ethnic hatred in spite of Islam. I have heard that rajputs don`t marry jats, jats don`t marry arains, sindhis don`t marry mohajirs, mohajirs don`t marry pathans etc (there are exceptions, but I mean in general). I think it is in the water of the subcontinent. I also know lot of Pakistanis who are very proud of aryan background etc and of course, we all know the Pakistani attitude towards Bengalis. So I am afraid we are all guilty of it in the subcontinent.

How old are you, Shivam?

shivam,
I dont think the first world countries are being altruistic.They have interest in the cheap labour force. Again,for the upliftment of the SC,ST and OBCs ,I think reservations are neiher correct nor adequate,though political compulsions will mandate against getting rid of them anytime soon.Since a large part of India is self employed,our education should be geared towards fostering entrepreneurship,instead of engineers,doctors and clerks.These issues have been debated at length in this dost mittar article .
Amit,we are casteist because we are Hindu,there is no denying that. We cant shrug off this fault from our religion,and it is codified in manusmriti etc. You may have overcome that,but religion`s effect in this case is regressive, this is a pretty much open and shut case.

Again the biggest barrier in mixing is religion. If you look at South American countries they are predominantly Christians. Religion is not playing a dividing role, one way or other they are following same religion. And by all means there religion (Christianity) is not dividing them on the bases of profession or social class they belong to.

Second if one look at your argument, Then why this division/discrimination is only part of Hinduism? Sikhism, Buddhism or Islam they all flourish in same region under same circumstances, we are not seeing this sort of division there, do we? Which means its more of the structure of religion, in Hinduism few group of people are more equal then others. They have more rights and prestige and to preserve there very own rights/prestige they promote caste system which is somehow backed by religious values.

Re:Imran #2

I have always been fascinated about the real reasons for the emergence of casteism. India has been a multi-ethnic multi-racial melting pot for millenia. One group or the other may have dominated the land but they could not finish off the others. This is unlike other parts of the world which are fairly homogeneous. The only way for people to preserve their unique ethnic background was to avoid intermixing. Some people say the caste system came from professional divisions but I doubt it because other parts of the world with homogenous ethnicities did not witness the same phenomenon. Original hinduism i.e. vedic hinduism of the Aryans doesn`t have caste system. So my guess is the caste system developed from some form of racial/ethnic apartheid ever since the arrival of Aryans. After that it must have become part of the social system and got imbued with religious connotations.

An interesting parallel would be with countries in Latin America or South America like Brazil or Argentina. Originally a small minority of whites dominated a melting pot of brown and black races in these countries. Now after a lot of intermixing, you have seemingly whitish minorities ruling these countries. I say whitish because they certainly have some mixture and do not look like pure white Europeans. Still I heard that these whitish minorities are economically dominant and very restrictive about who they marry to jealously protect their exclusiveness. Sounds similar to South Asia?

Hi Shivam,

It is really disgraceful that even in this day and age some people think along caste lines. We must really eradicate this menace once and for all from our society. However, the idea of reservations in the private sector is not good because our private sector is still nascent and developing. It is not like the US where the private sector has been around for centuries. We are still building it and it is powering our economic growth. You do not want to handicap your engine of economic growth and kill the goose that is laying the golden eggs. However 25-30 years from now, it may be okay to consider the idea. Right now we should look at other things like expanding education opportunities, investing in primary education and offering scholarships to dalits.

Well religion is the most active player in formation of Indian society. What else you can think of, when dominating religion is comprised of cast system. No offence, but I haven’t seen any other religion which divide its followers on the bases of there cast/profession.

And to my surprise you guys still talk about “Bhangi Colony” in Lahore!!