Khamosh Pani Crosses the Border Noisily

DilipD #127

``You ask Could you visit Godhra too and hear the locals` version of incidents?

It always happens: I mention that I visited Gujarat during the violence there, and someone pops up to ask ``Could you visit Godhra too?`` Perhaps this is the realism you mean? This apparent assumption that Godhra is somehow separate from Gujarat?

For the record, last time I checked, Godhra is part of Gujarat. ``


I already know Godhra is part of Gujarat but realism is that last time I checked, not everyone who goes to Gujarat necessarily visits Godhra.

If you are trying to put me on the defensive here, it is not working. I ask because that I have never seen in the press, any report on local Godhra Muslims` version of events of that day. I am interested in knowing what people in Godhra think happened and why.

I have also never seen sufficient context being provided for the incident by the press in a thoughtful or meaningful way, except in bits and pieces.

Such as,
-how frequently did trains of activists headed to and from Ayodhya generally pass through.

-On this route as well others, were disturbances at intermediate stations in UP, MP, Raj, Guj the norm. What were major and minor previous incidents previously provoked by those on the trains and off them(including bomb blasts on the Gomti express in previous years in the vicinity of Lucknow).

-Did any journalist go up and down these routes/stations and enquire from the general public or the police about what generally happened when these trains passed through?

-What do locals think was the particular provocation that day in Godhra?

-Why do they think some of the locals decided to go so far as to set fire to a bogey with people inside?

-Or do Godhra residents in general believe that no Godhra resident was involved in the fire and the government`s case against some Godhra residents is false?

-If they do, do they believe this because they have some basis to think it is the honest truth or do they believe this because Gujarat is so communally polarized that people believe only their own version of the truth?

-What are the socio-economic conditions in which the Godhra accused lived?

If you can shed any light or offer any insights here, that would be appreciated.

#126 by mohammad
//..Hey Dilip !! ...So how much does the ISI pay you ? ...//

That`s a cheap-shot. Nobody here believes that the leftists are somekind of spies on ISI payroll. Even though we have seen Ms Arundhati Roy [Queen-Bee of Leftism] enjoying the august company of Mr. Hamid Gul [the ex-ISI chief, an jiahdi on his own right and a true friend of the Taliban] every once in while. But for some reason - we choose ignore such transgressions on part of the leftists, to our own detriment.

So no - from what we have seen so far, Dilip is NOT on ISI payroll. He is just practising leftism, wearing king-size blinkers. The rest of the crowd here are trying to make him see the horizon, which will eventually prove to be a futile excercise.

Dillip
//...I have never yet had any Muslim say to me that Godhra was justified....//

Of course - Why should a muslim say Godhra was justified? At the minimum - it`s counter-intuitive.

On the contrary - it`s the leftists who invented all sorts tehories to justify/nullify godhra. Some even said that the VHP goons deserved it - some said it was about the tea vendor not being paid - some said some girl was abducted. I mean it was unbelievable.

So the point here is not IMs per se. The point is about media and muslim communalism. It`s about the chicaney practiced by media by papering over muslim fundamentalism.

As far as IMs are concerned - they are haplessly caught in the middle. The fundamentalist among them are never weeded out, which ultimately gives the entire community bad rap, which in turn excites the hindu communalists and gives them grist to their hate-mills. In this bargain everybody looses, except of course the communalists on both sides.

dilip:

...nice to see you here...try and make this a habit?...

rahul:

...i hope dilip forgives me for this intrusion...you can read some of his pieces here DILIP

...also my thanks for the hindi poetry article...

rgds,

t

DilipD:

Congrats on Swades. From the reviews of the films, it seems that it did not do full justice to your Rediff article that inspired it.


`` In all my writing about Gujarat, in travelling through that state during the violence, among my Muslim friends here, etc, I have never yet had any Muslim say to me that Godhra was justified. They all condemned it unreservedly. Even the Muslims I met in Godhra and the rest of Gujarat.``

I am afraid that this is a typical copout. If I only said that I condemned what happened in Ahmedabad and Baroda, without putting the blame squarely on the Modi administration and the Hindu hoodlums for what happened there, that would be a copout too.

The leftists have always condemned what happened at Godhra, but they have come forward with all kind of theories about how it could not have been done by people from outside the compartment or that the victims themselves triggered the incident by their provocative acts and behaviour.

DilipD #127
``Because those who make assumptions about a whole religion, based on the crimes of a few creeps from that religion, will also be defeated by the free flow of ideas``
Well said.
I have not read your writings on Gujarat but would like to pose a question to you.
Has the media got any opinion on why did Gothra and Ahmedabad take place? I have a feeling that these events are generally filed off as blatant approximations about how hindu or muslim fanaticism is rising. I do not think fanaticism is a monolithic entity, but it does tend towards becoming monolithic when it is portrayed in such a way.Why did it manifest in only these two places?And I dont mean reasons like ``they did not pay for tea and thats why got burnt`` or ``state machinery indulged in pogrom``. What were the civic conditions in Gothra and Ahmedabad that caused these things to happen? Why did some people think that Gothra was cause enough to start revenge killings of innocents? Was there lack of civic interaction? What made Ahmedabad and Gothra different from the rest of India?
Secondly, making assumptions about a whole religion is not the same as making assumptions about all people who practice(or dont practice) the religion.Saying Hinduism is casteist is true,saying all Hindus are casteist is not.

Saima #115:

Thanks Saima, it`s always a treat to be on chowk, I am sorry I manage it no more than once every year or two. Could I contribute something soon? How did you hear about Swades?

Sadna #124:

You ask Could you visit Godhra too and hear the locals` version of incidents?

It always happens: I mention that I visited Gujarat during the violence there, and someone pops up to ask ``Could you visit Godhra too?`` Perhaps this is the realism you mean? This apparent assumption that Godhra is somehow separate from Gujarat?

For the record, last time I checked, Godhra is part of Gujarat. For the record, yes, I did visit Godhra and that carriage and spoke to plenty of the locals. For the record, I also visited several other places in Gujarat. And finally for the record, I came away profoundly disturbed and depressed, and I remain so today.

rahul #125: I would love to understand what sadna`s point is. This is why I`m here.

Veeresh my friend: The only point I would take issue with you is where you said that the Indian media has long been dominated by leftists. To me, this is a fraying argument. Even if it were true, which I hardly believe it was, that by itself doesn`t make the case of those on the left today any less (or more) valid.

Yousuf: I don`t see that you advocated a ban on the film, so I`m not sure why you`re being attacked on that count. You raise what I think are legitimate worries. But for what it`s worth, I think the best course is to show such films, let the reactions and memories come out even if worrisome, be discussed and fought over. That`s the only reasonably healthy way to come to terms with Partition and all the baggage it has left for two countries to carry for 60 years. If that means more fuel to the Bajrang Dal crowd here in India, or to the LeT crowd in Pakistan, so be it. Veeresh is right: that`s democracy too, and that`s the promise of democracy -- that the scum will be defeated by the power of, the exchange of, the free flow of, ideas and debate.

Finally, going back to all that happened in Gujarat, I want to paste here something I wrote to a friend recently: In all my writing about Gujarat, in travelling through that state during the violence, among my Muslim friends here, etc, I have never yet had any Muslim say to me that Godhra was justified. They all condemned it unreservedly. Even the Muslims I met in Godhra and the rest of Gujarat. Whereas I have by now lost track of the number of Hindus in Gujarat and Bombay and over email who have told me the subsequent massacre was justified.

Now I don`t believe a single Hindu who reads this needs to feel ``defensive`` -- like you, Yousuf, said those little kids did. Why should anyone feel defensive about what some criminals do, just because they profess the same religion? So in just the same way, I don`t believe Muslims here need to feel defensive about what Khamosh Pani depicts.

Because those who make assumptions about a whole religion, based on the crimes of a few creeps from that religion, will also be defeated by the free flow of ideas.

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dost-mittar #116
``But it would be pure ``lal bujhakkarhism` to pretend that they are not. Do I need to remind you that in the not-so-polite company, Muslims are often called Pakistanis and not only in Gujarat? The unfortunate part is that it is the BJP which explicity talked about this link - the message does not become invalid just because the messenger stinks.``


That means that creative ways and means have to thought of how to delink Pakistan and Indian Muslims in the public`s minds. I would not trust a messenger for whom the message is their honeypot or livelihood. Without Hindu-Muslim rancor, BJP would be defunct.

If the `psecular` crowd(hi Dilip! :)) wasn`t so blind to everything except Hindu communalism, they would be coming up with these creative ways.

DilipD #114
Good to hear of your travels. Please expand on them. Could you visit Godhra too and hear the locals` version of incidents?

Last time I interacted with you on chowk I remember I mentioned violent CPM bandhs in Kerala. Since then there has been press coverage of CPM workers` election violence in West Bengal esp. in local bodies elections. I am curious to know did any one in the anti-Hindutva opinionmaker crowd who calls themselves leftists feel outraged enough at such subversion of democracy to visit those places?

DilipD #114
Taking names and assuming things about people is unacceptable.But please try to understand what sadna`s point is. I would appreciate if you could contribute to the discussion.Thanks.

``It is that you are where you are because of the largess and kindness of the indian state and its` citizens to your forefathers and indirectly to you, yet you choose to identify with a treacherous peoples whose raison d`etre for existence is the destruction of India.``

Nikki

The Indian State sold out the Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs to the altar of secularism and Muslim appeasement. The least they owed us was space in what remained of India. I don`t owe them any gratitude. The state of Pakistan similarly sold out on Muslims as well. So I am not going to buy any of this elitist crap.

``The the first thing is I would force the whole head-in-the-clouds Dilip Dsouza, Pankaj Mishra, Arundhati ``Hamid Gul`` Roy, Praful Bidwai , Anand Patwardhan crowd to see Khamosh Pani, twice if possible. Let THEM be exposed to some realism. ``

This is based on the assumption that they are not exposed to what is really going on. On the contrary, I think they do know the reality. It is just that they have a different agenda. Their effort is to brush the threat of terrorist producing madarssas under the carpet and raised hue and find sticks to beat those who advocate for the hindus.

Remember how these secualr goons were rejoicing the killings in Godhara? Or how they were quick to blame the VHP crowd for bomb blasts in churches? Only later we found out that it was the handywork of some madarssa trained organization called Deendar Anjuman! But guess what, there was no hullabol at that!

Now see this. Here we have an article here that tries to dilute the message of a movie on muslim fundamentalism, although in a roundabout manner. Imagine the kind of response the secular crowd would have put if someone tried to justify the ban of Final Solutions!

#117:
I wish to make a correction. In fact, I did once state that riots in India are sometimes also started by Muslims.

#117:
I wish to make a correction. In fact, I did once state that riots in India are sometimes also started by Muslims.