Khamosh Pani Crosses the Border Noisily

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it will be only fair if some of the posts are called infomercials.

THIS IS A PAID ANNOUCEMENT

``Most hindus are demented, most muslims are balanced based on my poll``.

Weren`t the DilipD`s kind, the first to jump on the Gujarat Police, advocating Ishrat`s innocense? It was the fornt-page headline then that poor Ishrat was killed by the orrible indoos.

Not a word when she turned out to be a real terrorist providing logistics to ISI snakes.

DilipD:

Just to clarify my own position, I also believe that ``the politics and doings of people who follow something called Hindutva is the greatest threat to my country, my family, my future``. But I also believe that asymmetric condemnation is precisely the fuel that ignites the backlash that supports those hindutvavadis. But for that backlash, the communal virus among the hindus would have remained confined to the chaddiwaalas and not infected the well educated Srinivasans and Varshabhosles.

In reply to DilipD, who thinks one flavor of violence is what poses the greatest threat to his country, his family and himself, I would advise a careful reading of the history of the German Weimar Republic. Hitler and the Nazis did not invent political violence in post-World War I Germany, their tactics had already been made ``normal`` by Communist and trade union violence, political assassinations, etc.

By being partisan with regards to violence, to the extent they have any influence at all, DilipD and his kind are simply making it more likely that their worst fears will become reality. The message DilipD and his kind convey is that violence by one`s political opponents is the only bad violence, everything else is condoned. From being a journalist, DilipD descends to being a political propagandist; and his dismay would be comical if it was not so tragic, when the other side is in the ascendant, and its propagandists talk only about violence of one type.

After all, DilipD reduced which violence is bad to a matter of opinion. Who will he be to complain that others disagree? Acceptance of disagreement about political matters is at the core of democracy, after all. If violence is seen through the political lens, then disagreement about violence is legitimate, and all one can do is try to shout louder than one`s opponent to delegitimize their violence.

If violence is seen as a breach of morality, however, then no violence is condonable, and the only feature which makes some violence worse than the others is its scale. Yes, some people will still state that violence is justifiable, but they stand on shaky ground and can be easily defeated.

Anyway, I had given up on DilipD`s tribe long ago, so I`m not sure what I`m doing here. Illusions that ideological blinders can be overcome by reason still unreasonably persist in me.

-Arun Gupta

DilipD#191:

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post#181 (I wonder if I am the only one). But here is why I gave those choices.

You said that you think that ``Having said that, I also believe the politics and doings of people who follow something called Hindutva is the greatest threat to my country, my family, my future, far more so than the CPM.`` It is precisely these people who (in India) are likely to point out to things mentioned in 2 and 3. As for 1, in my experience, a typical leftist would say it depends upon how that verse was interpreted, in what context, etc. etc..

DilipD #181

``What I said was, I`ve talked to some victims of that train tragedy (as I`ve talked to other people in Gujarat), and so I have some idea for myself (as you and everyone else have ideas, I`m certain) of what happened that day. ..... if you`d like to think I`m hiding something, please go right ahead. ``

Rather than giving a straight reply, you are again trying to build suspense! I do not know why? If you had talked to victims, you have first hand information, and you can always convey without mentioning names.

No, I do not believe that you have anything to hide. Like all of us, you do not have any first hand information and just trying to jack up your rates.

omar_r_quraishi #183

``Huh! I claimed what?``

Omar mian, one of your compatriots has already written about kind of ``left overs`` that goes into profession of journalism these days. And I have to agree with him. You also do not have any straight answers. Rather than explaining where you saw my so called claim of inside knowledge of Godhra, you are going at a tangent.

#187 by MaheshG2

You are wastng your time with dilip. He has already made his position clear. He subscribes to certain theory and that absolutely ``colors what he writes`` [his own words].

So what he writes and what he says is geared towards his personal belief. He is NOT even trying to be fair - to present multiple sides of the story - he has already made that clear.

And that`s standard for most left-leaning ``intellectuals`` and some part of media at large. At least, this guy has the guts to be honest about it. I give him credit for that.

dost #186: You went by my post #181? Really? Funny, I can`t see it.

In post #181, I explicitly said that preaching venom against non-believers in mosques disturbs me. But you have managed to twist that to claim that I don`t know if such stuff is hateful.

As for your points 2 and 3, I had nothing to say on either score in post #181. But you have managed to characterize me on that too, saying I do find those hateful.

You can decide what hateful is. Me, I can see nothing wrong in doing either of your points 2 and 3. Now I look forward to seeing how you will twist that to say the opposite.

mahesh #187: I`m losing track. If I claimed nothing of what sort?

Yes, I have had plenty of Hindus tell me that what happened in Gujarat was only a ``justified reaction`` to Godhra. The conclusion I draw from that? There are some pretty screwed up minds out there.

mohar #188: Excellent job excising what I said right before ``Yes it`s my opinion...``, which was this: I also believe the politics and doings of people who follow something called Hindutva is the greatest threat to my country, my family, my future, far more so than the CPM.

Oh yes: I am biased, dunno about parochial, I am by no means neutral, I may have my own agenda, etc and all the above. It`s not as if I`m not used to having these things thrown at me. Which is why I said somewhere before, I just write, and leave the labels to you.

But in my defence, I will say this: I deliberately do try to see both sides of the coin, pretty much always. I don`t always succeed, but I try.

Go well.

Dilip, if you claimed nothing of the sort then what conclusion are we supposed to draw from your statement that you didn`t meet any Muslim in Gujarat who thought that Godhra was justified.

You went on to say that on the other hand you met many Hindus who thought that the aftermath was justified. I would like to know what the conclusions are that you drawing from your observations.

dilip
//..Yes, it`s my opinion and others are free to think otherwise. Yes, that colours what I write...If that makes me leftist or something else, I`ll live with that.//

I appreciate that. Thanks for being honest.

This is exactly what I was trying establish - that you [others of your ilk] deliberately try to see only one side of the coin. You are biased and parochial. You are not a ``neutral`` journalist [not that such a breed actually exists], you don`t care for being ``fair and balanced`` - you have your own agenda and own axe to grind.

Which is fine - Now we know where you stand :)))

What is hateful?

1. Is it hateful for an imam delivering khutba on Friday to quote certain passages from the Quran or Hadith which are deemed hateful by non-muslims?

2. Is it hateful for someone to distribute leaflets in a communally sensitive non-muslim neighbourhood quoting what the imam was saying in that prayer (or showing it in a film in a communally sensitive country)?

3. Is this post itself hateful since it implies that certain passages in the quran and hadith contain hateful messages?

If I were to go by Dilip`s post#181, a leftist`s response would be a `yes` to 2 and 3 and `dont know` to 1.

``....Footnote: We need to start a dialogue on cultural and media exchanges between India and Pakistan, keeping our historical sensitivites in mind.........``


Yes, we need to start a dialogue between the citizens of this generation.......the oldies are too entrenched in their official positions of TNT..........let the youngsters mingle more ...let the Paki youth participate in Mood Indigo, participate in parties in India, just go on some tourism to South India and Goa.....let them read more of Indian literature and learn more classical music...........and let us have more indo-pak mushairas.......

So how do we begin???

#182 by Pakshaer on December 22, 2004 11:16pm PT

``..........In 1947, only two dozen miles away from Lahore, in Amritsar, Muslim women were marched naked in the streets, raped, and had their throats slit in the Gurdwara. The same could happen in Lahore, if only the Pak Army were not there...........``

I am puzzled! If a Paki Army is the saviour of all muslims in the sub-continent then how why did they massacre and rape Bengali Muslims in 1971???

Do not spread propaganda and lies............

friend #177: You claim to know what happened inside that compartment

What I said was, I`ve talked to some victims of that train tragedy (as I`ve talked to other people in Gujarat), and so I have some idea for myself (as you and everyone else have ideas, I`m certain) of what happened that day. These particular victims of the Godhra crime asked me not to write about our conversations (as many other people I`ve spoken to, in Gujarat and outside and regarding any number of other issues, have also asked me not to write about our conversations), and I will respect that.

How this persuades you that I know what happened inside that compartment, I have no idea. But if you`d like to think so, and if you`d like to think I`m hiding something, please go right ahead.

ankit #179: One by one, some responses from this greater mortal:

putting poster of Osama is not a crime legally. But does that tell something about the person?

If you`d like it to. Does putting up a poster of Thackeray say something about the person? If you`d like it to, again.

Does law allow people to assemble in vicinity of the disputed site in Ayodhya?

I think no, because I think Sec 144 (?) has been applied there.

Does law allow one community of decide that it will economically boycott another

As far as I know, yes. Or put it this way, there`s no law against one community deciding to economically boycott another. Nor should there be.

Do these things distrub you, the law not withstanding?

Some yes, some no. Posters of people don`t bother me particularly.

Does the fact about the preaching in mosques( as Veeresh pointed out) disturb you ?

Yes. Not random preaching, you understand, but preaching venom against non-believers.

Does it distrub you that the mullah refers to out country as `them` when talking at the friday prayers ( I am a witness to this) ?

No.

Does it distrub you that the guy at NCC camp decided to tell the commanding officer that he would not have to do the camp in ramzan if he were in Pakistan ( again I was in the same camp) ?

No.

sadna #176: I got that impression from your lack of interest in the violent tactics of Communist Party of India(Marxist).

I am interested in finding out about the crimes and ``violent tactics`` of anyone at all, including the CPM. Having said that, I also believe the politics and doings of people who follow something called Hindutva is the greatest threat to my country, my family, my future, far more so than the CPM. Yes, it`s my opinion and others are free to think otherwise. Yes, that colours what I write. If that makes me leftist or something else, I`ll live with that.

We are a long way indeed from Khamosh Pani.

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