Khamosh Pani Crosses the Border Noisily

Sorry, Dost-Mittar, I somewhat misunderstood your comments on Indian democracy, perhaps due to my ignorance about the Canadian English. For that very reason I made my niece who lives in Niagra, Canada, angry by correcting her English in her email. We perhaps deserve some allowance for our age.

What, however, made me visit this site again is to remind you about my request to help me see the film `Khamosh Pani`. I tried to search a copy of the film all over Islamabad after reading your comments on it but could not find it. It is surprising indeed as CDs of the Indian films reach here sometimes before the films are released there. Could you please guide or help me in this regard. You have my email address perhaps.

. . . but still no bloodshed on streets full with Punjabi refugees . . .

I have no idea if anyone is reading this any more ... I`ve been away in TN for ten days and haven`t had time to check here till now -- though I do note that urbashi posted something yesterday.

dost #260: Even a serial killer can be patriotic.

Man, this takes my breath away. If this statement can have any truth in it at all, I suspect we need a new definition of patriotism altogether. For I certainly don`t want any part of a patriotism in which a serial kiler can be patriotic. Thank you very much.

urbashi #274: I`ve read every single one of your posts. Closely and meticulously. I repeat what I said then: I am yet to see Hindutva being this tolerant creature that goes beyond the hatred of the Singhals and their kind. When I say that, all I get from you is Hindutva`s a wide and very inclusive term.

Well, show me then. If what you`re doing is saying that for you, Hinduism is not a valid term, and all the compassion and tolerance of Hinduism is really Hindutva, then fine, I salute you. But to me, I see Hindutva`s own loudest champions themselves drawing a distinction between Hinduism and Hindutva; and their Hindutva, that Hindutva, I find repugnant.

O assumed I was the only one who cared about the calamity? Wonderful.

In any case, I`ve been writing about my experiences travelling through the tsunami-hit part of Tamil Nadu. If anyone`s interested, please take a look at my blog.

I don`t know why the chowk staff didn`t publish my response to Dilip #256 and Gandiv #259, but I`m repeating what I`d written then. As it so happens I was travelling and didn`t get the time to catch up with what was happening here. Hence the delay.
First Gandiv, I think it`s difficult to defend the indefensible; certainly the Zahira affair isn`t a black-and-white case and there`s more to it than meets the eye, but from all accounts (and I`m speaking here of personal experiences and narratives that weren`t published in newspapers or magazines but were what ordinary Hindus in Gujarat saw and felt) the Gujarat Govt didn`t do its duty properly, to put things very mildly. No matter what the provocation, one shouldn`t descend to the level one despises in one`s enemies.
Sadna, Hindutva is more than the Sangh Parivar ideology/ies.
Dilip, it`s only when I pointed out that you hadn`t even bothered to read my posts that you decided to listen at all to what I (or anyone else who didn`t agree with you) had to say. You don`t have to agree with me, or with anyone else for that matter. But you have to respect the right of other people to think differently, and to accept that they may be right. Only those with closed minds can think themselves to be superior.
You wrote:
Why is it so hard for you to accept that, in exactly the same way, I could say ``I don`t have a problem with Hindutva per se, I have a problem with the hypocrisy, self-seeking and criminality of people professing to he hindutvawadis -- like Singhal, Togadia, Thackeray, Advani, etc``. Why so hard, urbashi?
Well, if you`d said that I wouldn`t find it hard at all. But you insist that Hindutva is synonymous with Moditva etc, and refuse to believe that it can mean something more, or something else.
And it is because i have not yet had anyone, not even you, tell me about this wider Hindutva that`s different from what these guys sell, that I start to wonder, maybe this is the only hindutva
That`s exactly what I, and others like dost-mitter too, have been trying to tell you, if only you`d care to listen - that Hindutva`s a wide and very inclusive term. I wrote earlier that for me Hinduism is not a valid term at all - it`s a restrictive phrase constructed by colonizers who tried to fashion the wide variety of religious, social and spiritual ways of life practised in this geographical region into one monolithic ``religion`` on the lines of their own exclusivist religious and colonial ideology. I would describe Hindutva as Tagore did in his poem ``Bharat-Teertha`` - as I wrote earlier - I don`t know why you won`t accept that this is Hindutva for many people. Or the beliefs of Ramakrishna Paramhansa on the spiritual plane. Sadna, however, prefers to believe that Hindutva is the limited and constricting ideology of the Sangh Parivar. Well, that`s HIS version of Hindutva. And though I don`t agree with him I can accept that this is one of the ways of seeing Hindutva, though not the ONLY way. Sadna is not offensive in the way he proclaims his beliefs; dare I say that you are?
So what`s it, Urbashi, is it hindutva that produces the cheap shots?
Now who`s cheap here? Don`t you think you asked for my question, by assuming you were the only one to be concerned about the great calamity that has befallen so much of Asia? Should I have asked you instead, is it Marxism/journalistic ethics/Left politics/disingenous pretensions to ``secularism``/whatever that makes you adopt this kind of attitude/
Incidentally, I may not agree with many of the tenets of Communism, but that doesn`t mean I have a problem with it.
But what I`d like to ask all of you who`ve posted your responses here, do you really think Khamosh Pani harmed Indo-Pak/Hindu-Muslim relationships? And that such films shouldn`t be shown, no matter how truthful? Perhaps only those films should be shown that represent the stereotype of Hindus so excoriated by many people here?

Hail again Comrade Dilip Desouza,
A feather in the cap of Indian brand of Pseudo-Secularism!

Dialectical disaster

The Pioneer Edit Desk

The December 27, 2004, issue of People`s Democracy, the weekly English organ of the CPI(M), contains a rather intriguing statement which will flummox even a veteran in the correct handling of contradictions, linguistic or otherwise. It reads. ``The tsunami striking us in the last days of 2004 must be seen not as a ominous signal for the future, but as a culmination of a legacy of hate and destruction that we, the Indian people, unitedly and finally overcame in the political sphere in 2004.``

Anyone familiar with the CPI(M)`s line of thinking would know that ``legacy of hate and destruction`` here means that of the NDA Government-particularly, the latter`s principal constituent, the BJP-that was voted out of power in May last year. If that, indeed, is so, then the lethal waves that have, till the time of writing, killed around 150,000 people, were generated following the NDA Government`s electoral defeat. Such an interpretation, which would imply that the tsunami was the price the people of the affected areas paid for defeating the NDA, will certainly not warm the cockles of Marxist hearts. But then, the other interpretation, that it was the culmination of the ``politics of hate and destruction``, raises a couple of troubling questions.

Why then did the foreign tourists and the people of countries like Indonesia, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Maldives and even Somalia, who had nothing to do with Indian politics, suffer grieveously? Also, how could followers of Karl Marx, who called his doctrine ``scientific socialism``, argue that the NDA`s politics could unleash a physical phenomenon like the devastating waves?

The history of all hitherto existing communist parties is, of course, the history of trying to reconcile irreconcilables. Thus the term ``dynamic democratic dictatorship of the proletariat`` was conjured up to suggest that the dictatorship of the proletariat that, pace Karl Marx, was to be set up after a successful proletarian revolution had overthrown capitalism, would not really be a dictatorship but perhaps the first genuine democracy in the world. The magic tool communists use to perform such miraculous polemical feats is dialectical reasoning that can draw with aplomb diametrically opposite conclusions from the same set of premises, depending on what is desired.

Thus what they had until then opposed as an ``imperialist war`` overnight became a ``people`s war`` when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union in June, 1941. Equally, dialectical argumentation can project a revolution, such as the one Hungary witnessed in 1956, as a ``counter-revolution`` launched at the instigation of the ``running dogs of imperialism.`` Unfortunately, logic being a part of the superstructure, dialectical reasoning has lost its magic following the collapse of the Soviet Union and China`s tilt towards capitalism. Resort to it, it seems, has now began to induce verbal diarrhoea such as the one whose traces are spread out on the pages of the People`s Democracy. It would be interesting to see what medicine the CPI(M) uses to stanch its flow.

Yousuf Sayeed, I know you are reading these interacts, so I shall ask again:- what far reaching impact did this movie have in India other than spelling out some more home truths?

#265 by sadna,

I did explain at length why Hindutva is exclusivist(`exclusionary`) - Hindutva which in the current context, I said clearly and multiple times, is the political Hindutva practised by the Sangh Parivar.

Sangh Parivar is not all about politics, it`s also contains branches for cultural, educational and social services. But ultimately it depends on what you want to see and focus on.

As far as misuse of religion in politics is concerned, BJP is not an invention in itself, rather an answer to religous whipping by Mullahs and moral sermons from the high priest of church.

Indians lived without BJP until 1989, when muslim appeasement reached to notoriuously high level.

Meanwhile here`s another secular development that reiterates what we already know, that in India, secularism means hindu-bashing.

Return of Jazia?

Author: Vaidehi Nathan
Publication: Organiser
Date: November 21, 2004
URL: http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=51&page=3
Introduction: Almost all the big temples the commies are eyeing solely depend on their income to run their day-to-day affair. In Andhra, Tirupati temple funds are taken for development.

The comrades in Red are reinventing Aurangzeb. In their wisdom, they are suggesting to the UPA government to collect a cess from temples in India. Couched in the words ‘places of worship’, they have cited Vaishno Devi, Tirupati, Golden Temple, Amritsar and such shrines.

Of course, this is not the communists` first attempt at dipping a finger in the pie. In Kerala, the temple management boards have been in the hands of communists, Congress and even Muslim League when they were in power.

But the suggestion that the temples be taxed amounts to charging tax on the Hindus. This when Mulayam Singh in UP has exempted all Wakf property from government scrutiny. The communists have come up with this proposal in the blue-print they have prepared on tax reforms, to help the government. It is to be presented to the Finance Minister via the UPA Coordination Committee before the budget. It gives out their split vision in anything concerning the ethos, faith and heritage of the country. There is no difference between them and the marauder Ghazni, who according to them invaded the Somnath temple 17 times for loot.

In an informal meeting with the Finance Minister, Gurudas Dasgupta is said to have enticed the former with the calculation that even a nominal cess would fetch the government a whopping Rs 2,000 to Rs 3,000 crore annually. If indeed what he said is true, then this money ought to be spent by the temples on renovating other temples in the country which are in bad shape. Thousands of temples have been demolished in Kashmir. Why should the government that lets looters and defaulters go scot free steal the money offered as an expression of faith for augmenting its income? For long, communists in Kerala used to say that temples should be taken over for tapioca cultivation.

In the name of land reform and redistribution of land, the communists have already taken away the land belonging to temples, mutts and other religious institutions. The government contributes next to nothing in maintaining the civic amenities and facilities at famous temple-towns. Almost all the big temples that commies are eyeing solely depend on their income to run their day-to-day affairs. In Andhra, Tirupati temple funds are taken for development expense by the state government.

A government that is willing and eager to enhance Haj subsidy and relax conditions for getting subsidies has no business to charge cess from one section of the people, only because they happen to be the majority community.

teshah#269:

``Excuse me, while living in Canada one can hardly be aware of ground realities in the Sub-continent. ``

I dont know why you say this because in my post#268, I agreed with your earlier comment on Indian democracy!

dost_mittar

The `Democracy` which according to the classical Greek polis was the name of a constitution in which the poorer people (demos) excercised power in their own interest as against the interest of the rich and aristocratic became `Dallat-cracy` in India and `Lota-cracy or militay-cracy` in Pakistan. Again, state itself is according to Marx a tool of oppresion of one class by another class. Gen. Musharraf who claims to have introduced true democracy in Pakistan stated in his recent speach on the TV that he would never violate the constitution (ha ha ha). In India Sonia Gandhi was unable to take over as PM of India only because of the opposition by Hindu extremists. So where is the rule of law there either which is the sin qua non of the democracy. Let us be realistic. Excuse me, while living in Canada one can hardly be aware of ground realities in the Sub-continent.

teshah:

I agree wrt Indian democracy. It is a miracle that the country is able to make any progress at all with the kind of political culture that pervades there.

I disagree wrt IMs. First of all, more than 90% of IMs were not even born or were small children at the time of the partition and had no say whatsoever in what happened before that. And there were many illustrious muslims like Azad, Zakaria, Chagla, even Maulana Madoodi, who opposed Jinnah`s demand for Pakistan. I also wonder how most muslims -or for that matter hindus- who lived in villages had any say in deciding their fate.

But most importantly, a society lives by the rule of law. India has her consitution and, under that consitution, each citizen is deemed to be an equal citizen regardless of his or her religious belief. Muslims have every right to expect the state to uphold their rights under that consitution.

#116 by dost-mittar

``I never intended to convey that a community of 140 million is a homogeneous monolith. Muslims can be divided into any number of groups in India, and a very large number of them in absolute terms have joined the mainstream, almost all of the IM chowkies would be in that category.``

I wonder what kind of democracy India is. It is apparently the kind of democracy, which Burke had described as the most shameless thing in the world. It is perhaps the only country in the world where a dacoit like Phoolan Devi could become a member of the Parliament, not once but twice, and when she is murdered like a mad bitch, both Sonia Gandhi and Bajpai stand at her pier to pay respect to her dead body obviously with a view only to win votes of her dalat community.

As for the IMs I also wonder what moral or legal ground they have to stay in India when they had voted en masse for separating a part of it to establish the Pakland purported to be the homeland of the Muslims of Hindustan, as we called it before partition. As a matter of principle they should have migrated to their cherished homeland as a sizeable portion of them alongwith many leaders did actually do. All this political arrangement imposed on India by the British Independence Act makes no sense to me now. The absurdities involved are so overwhelming that no one dares to talk about them so as to question the sagacity of our ‘great’ leaders who accepted this arrangement. Only Altaf Hussain and his MQM could do that. But with what result? Let us see. In the meanwhile recall what Bulleh Shah had said, “ Such aakhan te bhambarh machda” ( I may be enveloped in a blaze if I speak out the truth).

#116 by dost-mittar

``I never intended to convey that a community of 140 million is a homogeneous monolith. Muslims can be divided into any number of groups in India, and a very large number of them in absolute terms have joined the mainstream, almost all of the IM chowkies would be in that category.``

I wonder what kind of democracy India is. It is apparently the kind of democracy, which Burke had described as the most shameless thing in the world. It is perhaps the only country in the world where a dacoit like Phoolan Devi could become a member of the Parliament, not once but twice, and when she is murdered like a mad dog, both Sonia Gandhi and Bajpai stand at her pier to pay respect to her dead body obviously with a view only to win votes of her dalat community.

As for the IMs I also wonder what moral or legal ground they have to stay in India when they had voted en masse for separating a part of it to establish the Pakland purported to be the homeland of the Muslims of Hindustan, as we called it before partition. As a matter of principle they should have migrated to their cherished homeland as a sizeable portion of them alongwith many leaders did actually do. All this political arrangement imposed on India by the British Independence Act makes no sense to me now. The absurdities involved are so overwhelming that no one dares to talk about them so as to question the sagacity of our ‘great’ leaders who accepted this arrangement. Only Altaf Hussain and his MQM could do that. But with what result? Let us see. In the meanwhile recall what Bulleh Shah had said, “ Such aakhan te bhambarh machda” ( I may be enveloped in a blaze if I speak out the truth).

Gandiv #264
``The important thing was your explanation about your labelling Hinduism as ``inherently exclusionary`` for which you didn`t have much to say``


I did explain at length why Hindutva is exclusivist(`exclusionary`) - Hindutva which in the current context, I said clearly and multiple times, is the political Hindutva practised by the Sangh Parivar.

I did not discuss Hinduism anywhere in my posts.

#263 by sadna,

Don`t doubt about my complaints anywhere. I would complain wherever it would matter, btw, that was not the topic under question.

The important thing was your explanation about your labelling Hinduism as ``inherently exclusionary`` for which you didn`t have much to say except counting me among RSS advocates. Please refrain from generalizing/labelling beliefs if you don`t have anything to butress your theory with facts.

Contrast this with the nicety with which you carpeted the inherent exclusiveness of abrahmic faiths. You went tangential about concerns of my opinions at different locations.
Not a word about hawaldari of heaven?

Gandiv #259

Re people`s religious beliefs, I somehow doubt you would complain similarly about living with Christian Americans and Muslim Americans in the US, who hold the same beliefs which you complain about in India.

You are pretty much repeating what the RSS/VHP/BJP says on every subject. In every sentence you are excluding all nonHindus. That is wholly your choice, only don`t try to tell me that that brand of exclusion is actually inclusion.


avenger #262
This is what the greatest threat to YOUR country have been upto recently:
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=61781&headline=Caring~has~no~religion

dilipji sirji , its interesting that while you find RSS/Hindutwa guys repugnant `and a threat to your your country` , you find nothing disturbing about mullahs in Indian mosques addressing `Indians` as contemptuously `they`.....

RSS/Hindutwa is just a reaction to acts of certain sections of India`s population that include sheltering agents of enemy country , working as spies for the enemy country , planting RDX strategivcally in school buses , public places with the intention of killing as many cow worshipping kafeers as possible , cheering for the enemy country in popular sporting events and so on......

But then of course , you probably dont even consider the enemy country to be an enemy right ? I mean - they are in all probability , the anna daata for the likes of you....

Now do tell us more about who you consider to be the greatest threat to `your country`....we are all ears....