’NO’ to Ostentatious Displays and Wasteful Expenses

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kaurasach, a lil racist aren`t we...everything has to be boiled down to Pakistan vs. India....when that`s not even the issue at hand...the issue at hand is how there is a fallacious link made in this article between dowry, wedding fanfare, and the ``un-subordination`` of women.

duh not every law is followed, why that even exists her in the US!

Kader:

Sorry to say this, but banning a few meals from a valima and a baraat are not going to change the perception of females being subordinate members of society is South Asia. What it will do however is, alleviate the stress of parents wanting to kill themselves because they popped out to many females.

BTW, it is true that is law is widely ignored in Pakistan. Even meager wealth is enough to buy the elitest out of following this law.

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Good intentioned this law may be but in actuality there are a lot of loopholes around this law.For instance booking a hall in a hotel and declaring a kids haqiqa or a birthday party.Its not like government agents run around looking for such discrepencies.
But then again some families do utilize this oppurtunity to not spend too much money on weddings.Lack of food discourages party crashers, distant/disliked relatives, and offcourse less attendance.the people who truly care show up..hehe

Kaura
Man youre messed up.I have two words for you you damn Nazi : Firing squad.And that too with a bb gun so its more painful.And takes longer.

The article is more like stupid solutions for stupid people and stupid problems ??

If a rich man wants to spend all of his money to show off his wedding let the guy recycle his money. The wise thing for the not-so rich is to withstand social pressures and to live within their means. Most of these problems are due to the unwillingness of common people to think logically.

Kaurasach is a true RSS warrior, preparing the grand take over of the `Aryan Race` in the name of Hinduism. Phindians, at least one of you Indians in a country of 1 billion is talking some sense.

What is this Phindian secularism you are talking about? The one which attacked the holiest shrine of Sikhs and the one which took down the Babri Masjid and and the genocide agaisn`t the poor Indian Muslims? Damn, Kaurasach, are you a moron?

Salil

I appreciate your good intentions.

But the poor in the village look forward to marriage, a happy occasion, and a few days of good food.

For citywallas, either one has to eat at the untimely hour of 7-8 PM or starve for three hours at marriage drinking tea and eating ice cream. Then come back at 11-12 PM, open fridge, pull out some cold curry and eat it with double roti. The digestion system is wrecked, the next day is messed up.

I would rather have the state stay away from the marriage, nikah, moon sighting, circumcision, prayers, haj, zakat etc. It also need not enter our bed sheets to check our morality. It better do things it is supposed to do - supply water, electricity and provide jobs.

As for the Supreme court, the less said the better.

But I fully appreciate your good intentions.

NHK

#8 by haroonellahi

Not so fast my friend...Kaura is a Sikh. Get that into your hollow head, ok?

And yes..we are not secular, as you so eloquently put it, but then, The Great Islamic Republic of Pakistan killed more Muslims in Bangladesh than India ever did, so your point is what?

I wonder why emotions flare up so easily when someone says `India & Pakistan` in the same breath.

There are many things which Pakistan can learn from India and there are many things that india can learn from Islam & Pakistan.

bbabu, who on earth has told you that people think logically. None of us do, no matter how much we can profess to do so. Our society has a bigger impact on our upbringing and behavior than you are giving credit to and secondly, perhaps if you`re strong enough to resist, not everyone is a maverick. Given to ostentations for centuries of the Desi culture, Pakistan is still finding its roots of Islam It`s still more like India than a truly modern Islamic nation.

This ban has eased a lot of pressure on marrying families, b/c now the ban can be cited as an excuse if the people have no money to spend. This is in stark contrast to the families literally demanding the most choicest dishes and so forth at dinners, which to add to the already extravagant spendings, literally can bankrupt people. Plus, it keeps people away who really have nothing better to do than comment on the food.

In India as well as in Pakistan, the rich constitute a very small majority. It`s those who`re nto rich, whom we should consider. The rich have always done whatever they wanted. But as long as their doing it in their homes, who cares.

Mr. Kaura, i really don`t know what has fuelled such thinking, and who knows maybe you`re even right....but at least be open to suggestions and try to lesson the hatred. It`s very easy to incite people to kill each other. Any idiot can do that. It`s harder to forge bonds and there are very few people who`re willing to try it.

Do you know that over 12,000 Billion Rupees are spent WorldWide Everyday on Defense. Eradicating Polio only took 4 hours of that money and people the world over benefitted. I`d rather have all that money being used for good, rather than engage in something that no one benefits from. Man is the same, whether they`re Desi, American, Jew or an Athiest. We`re all alike. Only our thoughts differ us from each other.

comments welcomed.

harish_hyd and haroonellahi:

What point is made when you guys go around throwing allegations of injustices by one and the other?

---

As Pakistani`s I don`t really see how we can talk about injusticves elsewhere in the world just because we not only don`t treat Hindus well, we also don`t treat various sects of Islam, Christianity, other sects well either. It seems that Pakistan exists to serve the rich, and the army.

The fact that the author addresses this article ``as a lesson to Indian Muslims`` is more of an insult to them than anything else. The insinuation that as Muslims they are the ones only engaged in the practise of dowry is a complete generalisation. Frankly, I don`t think this law has anything to do with Islam or wasteful expenses for that matter. First, the laws in Pakistan are as always applied very selectively. Second, if the problem of dowry and ``wasteful expenses`` is widespread, people will just find other means to spend and men will find other women to marry.

With so much in the country contrary to any accepted norms of human propriety and equality, is another half-thoughtout law (based on someone`s version of Islam) rarely implemented law really needed? If the people in power actually wanted to better anything in this country, they would first pay attention to basic things such as water, safety, collecting taxes from the rich and not just the salaried, education, law and order etc.

With every single passing day of knowing Pakistan, and the politics and laws that now exist there it is clear that those who are constantly trying to use the guise of Islam with everything in the country are actually doing a great disservice. I am left with the impression that any law that is supported through the mentioning of Islam is self serving, harmful, and doesn`t really end up solving anything.

It is sad our judges indulge in useless unforceable things. They do not pay attention to major problems of country when in their courts. I do not like idea of poverty worshipping. What is bad in spending the earned money ? What is there to be ashamed of creation of wealth and feeding good food and liquid refeshments to your friends on occasion of your son`s or daughter`s marriage. It is not fault of rich and able people they make good living.
This unhonorable judges laid tradition started by justice Muneer to approves take overs. It is but natural when they can not do any meaningful things start indulging in stupid things. The judges declared once present marriage ceremonies are like hindu marriages, what this judges have to comment about what people to lawfully and peacefully.
Our country need help from usa not in dollars as they soon are gone but people who will interpreat constitytion and force it and put generals to shame.
These laws are not appropriate as I do not want to say laws are wrong. Also dowry laws are unforceable. Many times you are forced to give money . Suppose you have stupid halfmad son you need to get bride and money as a lubrication will help. Or suppose you have ugly daughter and no man even wants to get in vicinity of 50 meters you have problem. Now some are so dark you can make them at night due to darkness. I met once man.The man was desperate he said he is looking for son in law and I said I will keep attention. He was desperate he said if boy marries his daughter he can give his other 3 daughters as dowry. I told him please do not utter even word about dowry as when he sees her he can get depressed and if you mention of other three daughters he will be dead and news will spread.
I told him to use lots of money, put lots of powder, etc. But man was not god his daughters buried him in few years. He would have saved if he had money but poor are poor and whiners. He was full problems he used to come late and excuse was always about marriage, he was lazy and complaint all time about daughters marriage. Now that was his fault but others had to suffer. If he had lots of money problem could have been taken care.
I met once nice liberal couple. They were liberal with others money took money for sons marriage but were not interested in giving money they did not wanted to follow hindu traditions. When some body inquired about change of principle. He was liberal said ``they follow principles but changing principle is allowed if you find intelluctually wrong``. That is right pure secular liberal attitude. All lafangebazi and lafangas.
All its bad for economy as hospatility business suffer and mostly poor people are deprived of their wages. It is sad rich are treated as nearly criminals and poor are considered as people of virtue, wrong they have virtues as they have no opportunity to be corroupt. Anyway its getting late. I wish all readers good happy new 2005.

Well writer seems young maturing man. He is going through ``socialist`` phase and will mature to normality . Time is great cure. Most socialist end up in usa not in China advantage to China. At that age people donot read any books with big names Das Capital, Anti Duharin, Hegel, dilectical materialism, great works of comrade Joseph Stan or thoughts of Mao and all heady stuff. But they look at covers and get all stuff and start pontification. They should read State and revolution and left communism, infantile disorder by Lenin. But they do not have time to0 read but just watch tv and write advice to rich people. And rich people have no time to read such good advice and waste time . He wants to creat wealth for him his family. There are good leftists like Mrs Roy company they are aginst america but hop on airplanes and when they come back they will preach disadvantage of air pollution by usa and planes and tell half naked hindus of India to shun wealth as they can get spoilt by riches. I have heard Kerala produces Reds in India like mices. All types of red bookish revolutionaryis writing big articles. We should keep these away from Pakistan as they are worst than Army general type disease. Leftism breeds imcompetance, whiny small rats .
Again writer... Please give that you advice and things to poor Indians . we want unhealthy expences and displays and lots of wasteful expenses. I hope all world does not stop wasteful expenses as otherwise Indians will need PL480 again to feed fast breeding Indians.
Good 2005 and good `` Ostentatious Displays and Wasteful Expenses`` and god save world from do gooder `` Salil Kader`` type people. I feel depressed now as man is serious.
All lafangebazi to impress some gf. I am tried and depressed by this man Diatribe against wasteful expenses.

Dear Siyam, I think you missed this line of my essay: ``Dowry and ostentations, which have become synonymous with weddings of all communities across India..`` I have said ``all communities`` and obviously the comment doesnt single out a community. The reason I directed some part of the essay towards Indian Muslims is because the judges quoted the Holy Quran while making the judgement and thus it is relevant to Muslims of India too. I apologise if any IM felt that i was making an insinuation against the community. That was definitely not the intention. I am an IM and very well understand that the internal problems of the community. Instead of berating the laws and the law making mechanism, i think we need to be optimistic and experiment with certain laws. Who knows one of them might just work? That laws never work or are broken frequently shouldnt be reason not to have laws!

dear ahmedmadani sahab, I thank you for your comments. To begin with let me clarify, I am no leftist/socialist. In fact I am opposed to the leftist method of doing things. I agree that ``It is not fault of rich and able people they make good living..`` but as individuals living in a particular society, rich or poor, we have our responsibilities towards the betterment of that society. I am just addressing those responsibilities. Please do not get depressed.

Bravo ! I whole heartedly support the writer`s viewpoint. Although it is none of my damn business ( pardon my French ! ) being away from the environs of South Asia for many years now, yet, being someone who saw life at the very `grassroots`, I respect the opinion expressed in the piece. Whereas Nawaz Sharif was a vicious and ambitious brat who had great `non-implementable` ideals, yet, the law under discussion, i.e. banning food in marriage ceremonies was one realistic step he took in his two terms as prime minister. Pakistan`s `well-meaning` elite that loves to show wealth and riches needs such laws to apply brakes on the `show of strength` of their enormous lust for glamour and glitter of rituals. As it is the almost invisible middle class is being crushed by the burden of economic issues. The emphasis on elaborate wedding ceremonies only added to the burden and the unhealthy competition in the society. One sincerely hopes that the Supreme Court decision is upheld in right earnest and enforced on all and sundry without `negative` discrimination. The Mian Sahibs, the Choudharies, the Seths and the Maliks should all be checked by the law enforcement agencies irrespective of their political or administration clout.

`` who on earth has told you that people think logically. None of us do, no matter how much we can profess to do so. Our society has a bigger impact on our upbringing and behavior than you are giving credit to and secondly, perhaps if you`re strong enough to resist, not everyone is a maverick. Given to ostentations for centuries of the Desi culture, Pakistan is still finding its roots of Islam It`s still more like India than a truly modern Islamic nation. ``

the biggest problem is desis never try !!!
hindu or muslim - most folks are chicken

JagDeCat #10,

Islam maybe, but what the heck should India learn from Pakistan? How to turn into a basket case country?

6 by nikki

I fully agree that it is not only a rdiculous decision it is also an un-Islamic one as is evidenced by an interesting Haddes quoted below:-

Sahih Bokhari,
Vol. I, Book 8, No.367

We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, `O Allah`s Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.` The Prophet said, `Go and take any slave girl.` He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, `O Allah`s Apostles! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.` So the Prophet said, `Bring him along with her.` So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, `Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.` Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her.``
Thabit asked Anas, ``O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?`` He said, ``Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her.`` Anas added, ``While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet . So the Prophet was a bridegroom and he said, `Whoever has anything (food) should bring it.` He spread out a leather sheet (for the food) and some brought dates and others cooking butter. (I think he (Anas) mentioned As-SawTq). So they prepared a dish of Hais (a kind of meal). And that was Walima (the marriage banquet) of Allah`s Apostle .``

I like the lines on which Salil Kader is thinking. The ordinance sets a good precedent for anyone to follow, either side of the border.

# 18, Thanks for cvlarifying you are not socialist. Felt better at same time feel bad as you like their aims only you do not like their ways of doing equality business.
If people do not recognize most people who are poor are with full of problems. They breed like rats , they can not provide for one child but they will start assembly production of people . They do not care about any thing but sex and depriving children. Rich people have few kids but servants have fleets of children from different women. Just disgusting.Poor people guilt feeling of well to do people and exploit them . In elections they are darling of all political parties. Some body said god likes poor so he breeds them like that. There was useless poor guy on eid have to give him money for his irresponsible way. Every time addition to family amd misery. My country is always army rule or in shadow of army rule. This dictorship had been good if they can force one child per family like our greatest benefactor.India and pakistan doomed by babies they will kill all like ants. Just no water, food and air. I uderstand sex is good for poor as its like air to them( there is nothing much other) , they do not give damn and thank govt for permitting to produce babies and wreck country but deny sex they will feel choked. Our govt should reward for for having only one child. But they want more votes so they encourage more babies. All lafangebazzi. all even dictectors are lafangas i feel some time. They can wear nice military dress like boys but all poor lafangas

I have not read the actual jugement of the Supreme court banning the wedding meals. As however apears from the press reports the judges of the Supreme Court seem to have become `Taliban` as they have pontified that the customs like `barat` and `mehndi` are Hinduistic and be shunned. My question is ``Do the `honourable` judges consider Hinuism an abrogated religion as the Taliban held the Christian religion to be?``. If so will they tell us whether the present corrupt judicial system of Pakistan is Islamic.

I feel sad for a large amount of people from the hospitality industry who are going to go out of business. Whether an expenditure is wasteful or not, and even if it is wasteful and someone wishes to spend the money is of no business of the state. Next they will start passing laws about what clothes can be worn, what cars can be bought etc. The state should concentrate on improving law and order, and reducing poverty by providing jobs.

Marriages are an expensive business in the sub continent, and passing of laws is not going to change that. If you want to save money, then the bride and groom should be encouraged to run away and get married, or live in sin !!!! (Said in jest)

On a serious note with so many divorces taking place I think that soon people will realize that its not worth spending that kind of money on marriages, specially if it ends up in failure.

Sir,

Sometimes you can even learn from other people`s mistakes...not just from what they do right.

Hell, in Pakistan`s case, you can write & learn from entire volumes...:P

``The decree of the Pakistani court is of great importance to the Muslims of India. ``

Miyan ! tumhara sar phir gaya hai? When did IM-s started looking at the wonderful legislations of Pakistan for inspiration?? I am sure you are in that gullible and romantic stage of your life when fascination for PURE things is natural.........and quoting hadith justifies any stupid action..................

Aren`t Hollywood and Bollywood films with 5 Crore set extravagent especially when they are to be dismantled after the shoot?
What about the corporate dinners or the paid holidays on some private beach!
what about the election posters ? Democracies spend millions of rupees on strewing them all over the country??

So who decides what is ``extravagant`` ?

So is it a ``proof`` that the Pakistani Judiciary is proactive? OTH, it is just a cheap trick that Paki SC Judges want to get- the same guys who have given legitimacy to their dictators..............Can we imagine the food inspectors and police goons vandalizing marriage or some party in order to see whether any ``extravagancy`` has been commited or not??

Salil Kader,

There are many things wrong here. First, the court has usurped the function of the Legislature. The Judiciary is there to interpret the law and not make the law. The Court determining the number of guests and even the menu is deplorable. It is clearly trespassing into the privacy of the individual. It has been said often (mostly by me) that you can`t legislate your way to enlightenment or modernity. This is something that has to come from below. It can`t be imposed from the top. How does the Court propose to enforce it`s ruling? By appointing `wedding inspectors`? The term itself sounds obscene. More bureaucracy and more corruption.

Your opinions are heart-warming and intentions noble. However, as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I`m reminded of a movie I watched many years ago. The husband is a suspicious man slowly slipping into psychosis. He takes to locking up his wife before going to office everyday. The wife joyfully co-operates, agreeing that it is actually in her own good.

PS:
You can take heart from the J&K Government`s initiative in this regard. The terms imposed seem to be even more stringent than those of the Pakistani court.

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Though the author makes a well reasoned arguement, I oppose it on grounds of principle. The state should not be in the business. of monitoring celebrations.

Oye Karya

Tu RSS (Rashtreeya Sikh Sangat) da member hai? Tu tey uthey vi Islami panga vekhda hai jithey Hindu nu vee khyal nahi aanda. Chill mar dude, and remember Saukhi gal sab taun sikhni chaidi aey. That is what even Ballu needs to understand.

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Never say No no ostentatious Displays and wasteful expenditure because you spend the money you have earned and were keeping it hoarded somewhere. When you spend even if it is on wasteful expenses or ostentatious displays, you create employment opportunities and money gets circulated. If you stop all this, where will all those lightwalas, fireworkswalas, khanabananewalas and waiters etc. etc. etc. will go and earn.

So, get up and spend and put money in circulation.

Regards to all.

This article is pure treason, since it is in awe of an ORDANANCE. In Indian (democratic) politics, laws are formed after much debate in parliament as well as media, and people get to air their views. The author is awe of a heavy-handed ordanance, why? Is it his personal makeup or comunal makeup?

heh heh heh

’NO’ to Ostentatious Displays

Dear Mr Author,

I think this is a veiled attack against an entire community, the good panjabis ;-)

jang ji, the article is no attack on any community in particular. All communities suffer from this extravagance syndrome and it is only worsening. As for my being in ``awe of an ORDANANCE`` is concerned, let me tell you thats not the case. We all know the quality of debate going on in the Indian Parliament these days. The way the taxpayers money is being spent by our respectable Parliamentarians would shame every Indian. God alone knows how laws are going to be passed when the Parliament gets stalled on issues like the arrest of former Madhya Pradesh Chief Minister Uma Bharti, Petroleum Minister Manishankar Aiyar’s “disrespect” of freedom fighter Veer Savarkar, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s alleged “discourteous behaviour” to an Opposition delegation, Lalu not coming to the house or the treatment being meted out to Shankaracharya. Anyway since you are opposed to ordinances and interested in bills, just log on to the parliament website and check how many bills have been passed by our parliament in the last one year after a proper debate. You wont have to go very far back: The Rs 500,000-crore Finance Bill for the year 2004-05 was passed without discussion coz the opposition boycotted the proceedings. So much for debate and Indian ``democratic politics``.

Many a times the legislature has failed in its duties and has lead to the judiciary to intervene. There need not be a law coming from the legislature everytime. Directives of the judiciary are equal to laws made by legislatures. Politicians dither from making laws which might affect their vote banks. Judiciary has no such fear and thus when there is a vacuum, the judiciary fills in. Its not just this issue; Judicial activism has been seen at its best in the area of environment. The government has failed to take congnisance of destruction of delicate ecosystems by unscrupulous elements. The judiciary has stepped in and given directives to stop such activities. These directives are today as good as laws which have saved the environment from destruction. (Silent Valley, Patancheru pollution are just couple of examples). The legislature is still sleeping on these issues.

#35 by jang on December 21, 2004 1:46pm PT
.......attack against an entire community, the good panjabis ;-)``


A very interesting point made.
Infact the rich are the biggest spenders and profligates. And profligacy and extravagency infact is required if one has to have more desire for affluence>......,..those who would be poor would infact desire and aspire for ``one cold or hot drink``..............OTH those who desire to be rich would spend more.........infact ``cheap`` civil legislations do not make for good economic policies.....................

salil #37

i dont like such a law, and would prefer a debate in media as well as parliament. however, your disenchantment with the democracy is noted. i thought POTA has been repealed, is it not true?

regarding communities, i think Punjus take the cake in ostentatious behavior and i absolutely love it, the Sangeet and Mehendi, and the barat. everyone should do it, rather than the boring ``pure`` practice. i mean life after marriage is dull enough. if girls father cannot afford it, its too bad. he can say that he does not want to pay for it, simple! OTOH, if he out of vanity is overspending beyond his means, that is simply stupid and a social movement to correct this supidity is in order. in the mean while why stop fun of those who can afford it?

39 by jang

The court behaved in this case like a barking donkey. They should mind their own business, avoid meddling in the personal affairs of the citizens and trying to don up a mantle of a social reformer. The worst thing they have done is issuing of `Fatwas` on culture and social values by calling some of them as Hinduistic. In Punjab the burdon of marriage expences falls more on the bride`s home but in the Pathan families it is the reverse. The latter not only do not offer wedding meals to Barat but even charge a good amount of money as a price for the bride. In my own conservative family the marriage ceremonies once used to be so simple that people often remarked that it could not be differentiated some times whether it was a marriage being celebrated or mourning being performed. Today they are wont to offer more lavish meals on `Qul` and `Chaleeswan` than on waleema, etc.. The simpe fact is that cultural and social values cannot be changed by legislation or judicial decisions. In fact the judicial system in Pakistan is so corrupt and expensive the earliest it is done away with the better as it is delivering nothing but the denial of justice and at what a cost both to the tax payers and the litigants.

Enforced mass simplicity is worse than any individual`s or group`s ostentation. He who enforces univeral simplicity today will definitely demand blind obedience from all tomorrow.

Simplicity should arise organically from people`s beliefs. It will come when people`s worth or success is not measured by their possessions and wealth alone.

``So much for debate and Indian ``democratic politics``............``

I am sure you can get some ``inspiration`` from the Pakistani ``democracy``.............

I am sure you can get some ``inspiration`` from the Pakistani ``democracy``.............

Lets look for inspiration from things/people which are better than us. Then only can you hope to improve.. the whole world knows which (India or Pakistan) has a more vibrant democracy. Comparisons are odious but if you still insist I think we should look at democratic traditions of Switzerland. It might be the size of one of our smaller states, but its democratic traditions are much stronger. It is a small country but definitely inspires. There are lots of things wrong in Pakistan and its establishment, but when the same establishment makes a positive move, it should be appreciated. I dont think it makes me less Indian or less patriotic if I appreciate something which is good (in my opinion), but it happens to be Pakistani in origin. Ballu yaar, you still dont get it... this is NOT about INDIA vs PAKISTAN. Why do we have to time and again start comparing the good and the bad?