Engaging India

``Do you think the US would have invaded Iraq if Iraq had possessed nuclear weapons and the means for their delivery? ``

Depending upon their perception of threat - yes. with the collapse of the Soviet Union there no longer exists a nuclear arsenal with the power to make the Americans (now first among equals) hold back or sweat. And no, China is not half the threat to America a lot of people believe it to be because of a shift in global politics... and economics.

``Do you think the Bushmonkey hasn`t said in public that he listens to the voice of a bigger Father than Bush, Sr.? And the Chimp is controlling the largest nuclear stockpile in the world. ``

My point exactly - how comfortable do you feel with ``the Chimp`` sitting on top of it? And dont forget, one of Bush`s grand dreams is to revive Star Wars, the automatic defense mechanism that will save north America from attack. So whats to keep his from listening to the voices in his head?

Response#23,Ballukhan.... You are reasonable.I agree and consent quitely without protest but without enthusiam, acquiesce.

``.....The war averted as Pakistan India wanted to avoid not due to some boasting by American officials.........``


Madani Saheb,

I think we need to get out of our illusions regarding the sagacity of the Pakistan Army.........the fact is that Musharaff was forced to abnadon his original Kargil Plan when Nawaz Sharif made the statement......and he paid for it later. Musharaff had already factored in the Nuclear threat and he was infact ready with his bombs all the time.....he was inches away from the war and the nuclear exchange....and he had made his intentions for first use very clear...it was not a bluff...he was dead serious about it......and Nawaz Sharif knew that it was not a bluff.....

Looking back I think those who support Musharaf`s ``Nuclear Bluff`` as a ``tactical master stroke`` are infact living in a fool`s paradise...............they do not realize how Musharaff had kept the lives of millions of Pakistanis at stake only to get over the humiliation of the past wars........fortunately he was restrained by America and could only fume at India in the wagah border stamping-of-the-boots style ...........all this brings us back to understand the necessity of putting the Military under the Civilian rule.........OTH, the Indian Generals were equally willing to have a go at Mush.....they were only restrained by the Civilian government.....Imagine if we had no civilian rule in India.......then a nuclear holocaust was a certainity

``.....The war averted as Pakistan India wanted to avoid not due to some boasting by American officials.........``


Madani Saheb,

I think we need to get out of our illusions regarding the sagacity of the Pakistan Army.........the fact is that Musharaff was forced to abnadon his original Kargil Plan when Nawaz Sharif made the statement......and he paid for it later. Musharaff had already factored in the Nuclear threat and he was infact ready with his bombs all the time.....he was inches away from the war and the nuclear exchange....and he had made his intentions for first use very clear...it was not a bluff...he was dead serious about it......and Nawaz Sharif knew that it was not a bluff.....

Looking back I think those who support Musharaf`s ``Nuclear Bluff`` as a ``tactical master stroke`` are infact living in a fool`s paradise...............they do not realize how Musharaff had kept the lives of millions of Pakistanis at stake only to get over the humiliation of the past wars........fortunately he was restrained by America and could only fume at India in the wagah border stamping-of-the-boots style ...........all this brings us back to understand the necessity of putting the Military under the Civilian rule.........OTH, the Indian Generals were equally willing to have a go at Mush.....they were only restrained by the Civilian government.....Imagine if we had no civilian rule in India.......then a nuclear holocaust was a certainity

Response #18 Thanks Mr. Harimau for putting questions. I could have done same but as a gentle older man my demeaner is too kind.The answer are obvious.
I am tired of expaks and NRI pontifficating about things from usa about things here. They have arrogance and pathetic humor and they feel grand they are smart and madani is stupid. I am not stupid and not going to feel good becuse my relatives are killed in 2 millions by atomic exchange or after words by nuclear diseases. Madani Sahib knows that socialist design of Chernobayl burned for weeks and godman only 50 people died and 10,000 people died in same times in car and bycyle accidents and nothing happened. They have NO originality is problem. They follow his masters voice and stupid prosocialism which has wasted 100 years in vain. Socialist travel from no where to no where. Raskals always support terrorists ( real terrorists to aninal rights groups all just they want god damn to protest). Damn they are like trained parrots and carry silly radical thinking gulping organic coffees and reading some strange poetry and cosuming organic wines. What they want is damn protest , yes karachi crowd managements have professional angry people they are good damn good they earn 100 rs by hard work. These people make confusion in minds of young men and women inducing them in sex, drugs , silly talking and insulting elders and saner gentle people like me, all other bad stuff at cost of poor parents. That is big PROBLEM. Instead of going to real study and doing real jobs and creating wealth they resent as others are successful and they want to take away hard work fruits and give it to poor producing lots children. They unnecessary worry about worlds problems instead of doing work and then giving money to their pet projects. They want to take money of hardworjking person to give it to their poors and oppressed and handicapped.
Yes I agree lots of bombs will add more stability and world will be balanced by several bombs supporting world. just like more supports foot bridge or building.
Only china knows how to deal with professional whiner they whip and put in prison. They stopp chattering so this groups do not try to make trouble in China. Good for china.
Harrimau has asked peroper questions.
I will thank you for site you gave by mr. Raja Perikar. It is excellent. I was originally apprehensive as it was south asian women forum. I am weary of women organizations as they have attitude ( I mean bad attitude) about their fathers and brothers and uncles and male dogs and male cats. I just avoided all stuff and went to Music section and its so great I could not believe in womans forum. I had little knowledge about music. But it cahnged my all views of looking at music. I studied Thaats i like like puriya Thaat etc, was able catch little basics. When I use to know very very little I was swelled then I began to understand some thing realised I know nothing. I spent still hours look at how notes are arranged etc. It has become hobby to me.
Good 2005 for all.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Happy new year to Chowk readers, writers, inter-actors, and staff. May you see many more.

Mohammad Gill

Ref amrita #17

[And while the temptation is great to think that those of us non-whites who are worried about extinction by nuclear physics are playing right into the cunningly alarmist hands of a West hell-bent to keep us out of the nuclear club, common sense should inform you that it is not safe for any nation to keep a nuclear arsenal in the world in which we live today, a world that is rapidly going to pot even as I write, where no secret (nuclear or otherwise) is safe from purchase.]

Do you think the US would have invaded Iraq if Iraq had possessed nuclear weapons and the means for their delivery?

Ref amrita #11

[As a full blown pacifist, what I would really like to see is the destruction of all nuclear stockpiles across the world. I don`t feel comfortable with the thought that any Tom Dick or Harry could blow us all up without a second`s hesitation just coz he heard voices in his head or God told him to do it or whatever the excuse for the week is.]

Do you think the Bushmonkey hasn`t said in public that he listens to the voice of a bigger Father than Bush, Sr.? And the Chimp is controlling the largest nuclear stockpile in the world.

As far as nukes are concerned, the more the merrier. The US and China felt that Pakistan should be allowed to develop nukes to counterbalance India. India should counterbalance China by giving nukes to Taiwan and North Korea. And some to Indonesia to piss off Australia. A few to Mexico and to Brazil and certainly to Venezuela to prevent their oil being taken over by the US.

A blurb is a short excerpt from a review by a famous person/writer/organization of the book in question and printed on the cover of the book. For example, the blurb that I quoted is by Outlook Magazine, a socio-political weekly print magazine from India, which reviewed ‘Engaging India’ and appeared on the back cover. It’s that part of the cover, which is supposed to make you (the reader) sit up and say, Oh my God, does Sean Connery/Salman Rushdie/Salon.com think that about this book or this writer? I absolutely must buy it! Once upon a time I believe the blurb was less commercial and more a token of one writer’s admiration for another. Nowadays, publishing houses get one writer from their “stable” to review another and instead of ever publishing the review, prefer to quote the most complimentary lines – and the more famous the writer reviewing the book, the more prominently it is displayed on the cover. As you can see, you really shouldn’t have gotten me started on this topic…

As of right now nuclear deterrence works, but the question is, for how long? There is a passage in the book when Talbott is astonished that India and Pakistan take the Cold War model as something to be admired, even as he remembers the trauma of growing up in those years when everyone was operating under the assumption that a nuclear holocaust was only a button away. And while the temptation is great to think that those of us non-whites who are worried about extinction by nuclear physics are playing right into the cunningly alarmist hands of a West hell-bent to keep us out of the nuclear club, common sense should inform you that it is not safe for any nation to keep a nuclear arsenal in the world in which we live today, a world that is rapidly going to pot even as I write, where no secret (nuclear or otherwise) is safe from purchase. Or has everyone become so inured to the massive loss of life across the globe every day that no one really cares?

As for nuclear bombs “only” killing a couple of million or so – how would you feel if your mother, father, sibling, husband, child or other loved one was among that million or two? It is not altogether surprising that South Asians, hailing from one of the most populous areas on the planet are increasingly callous about human life. It seems to be almost a requirement for citizenship – do not apply if you cannot watch death by starvation in public. However, I digress.

The point I am trying to make is that nuclear disarmament is no bad thing and we should all be working toward it. My main problem with Mr. Talbott stems from the fact that in spite of his very genuine concern about the topic, he refuses to see that disarmament should be universally applicable and not as per the NPT, which would leave 5 countries with their nuclear weapons intact.

Oh well, Merry Christmas and peace to the world!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re: M.B.Z.Isphahani # 13

Don`t use L K Advani, RSS, and Godse`s names to accuse Hindus of crimes they did not commit. Distort your language as much as you want. Don`t so blantantly distort your facts.

thanks for article. Kindly explain what is meant by ``blurb`` ?.
Unfortunaqtely my country is faced to to engaged with eastern neighbour. It has not been joy to pakistanies to live with india. India has destroyed and broken the country. Our relation with time will as mexico and usa. Usa also broke mexico and taken over large areas. Our nation is idealogical state based on religion and even self interests are sacraficed in idealogical fever.
It was interesting to read what American official says. I do not believe usa averted nuclear war or exchange. The GHQ of my country made calculations of our strength and our weaknesses and decided to forgo the atomic exchange.
I personally have doubts about capacities of both parties. Yield of Pak tests were 33% and 100% for indian imploson for tests. India claimed to have tested fusion device the yield was too small to be credible of thermonuclear device. he fusion device normally yields in megatons of equivalent TNT. British observers said 300 Kiloton and 1000 Kiloton for pak. and indian capacities. The capacity of both opponents is so small even American defence minister ( in exchange he said 2 million people will die) could not put much fear in either parties. Its nothing compared to 2 to 3 millions slaughtered by hindus and muslims. Pakistan produces much more people than million is nothing to fear. In japan there was destruction of 25 square kilometers and not much beyond. Nuclear disease killed more but not in millions but in thousands.
Russian and American bombs are credible as they are in megatons and can destroy cities but hiroshima type destroy few square miles.
What I have heard from military people in loose talks is following.
GHQ was faced with Dilemma. We have bombs but where to send and what it can do to win war? The answer they came is its loosing proposition. Even with 23 full fledged 1000KT capacity you can not provide decisive stroke, if they are sent and properly delivered not much destruction is possible due to wide spread population and distribution.
Ghq was conveyed by Indian side what they will do that stunned GHQ to silence.
Indian Govt conveyed in case of exchange we will target few places but with missive retaliation.
Indian govt gave proof to GOP it has aleady compromised communications ( they provided taped exchange of generals), that was shattering at political circles not with GHQ
Spillway gates and power generators of Tarbella will veporise
Spillway gates of Mangla will veporise
Sukkar Barrage will be blown
Karachi Harbor will be destroyed.
Sui gas fields will be damaged extensively ( in 71 they were damaged), key compressor units along Sui ( norther and southern) and gas pipe lines crossing Indus will be nuked ( they have been blown by domestic terrorists on regular basis.
Airfields at Badin, Sargodha,sukkar will be subjected nuclear attack.
Indian armies will cross in Sindh downwards of Rahimyarkhan.
If Tarbella and Mangla breach, country will starve and it takes time to build.
With out Karachi all foreign import export will come to halt and with no pakistan flag carrier vessels no body will dare to come to trade. GHq was very much worried about southern Sindh as there are splitist tendency which can lead to again breaking of country. Sindh is Ukrane of pakistan and indian can use that card and they conveyed to GHQ. I think American always want to treat them self as more mature and prevents war between India and pakistan. They could not prevent 48.65,71 wars but they try to take credit. It is also tendency amoung intelluctual class to be afraid if west says you should be afraid. There is clear cut lack of intelligence and inferiority complex in expaks and NRIs. I personally found it offensive. Indian politicians and pakistani army or govt in shadow of army make decisions which they find reasonable.
Is nuclear war possible? It may be logical as Indians are rigid about central issue of Kashmir and pakistan is also same way. Pakistan is idealogical state and army and nationalism based on religion is the spirit keeping nation alive and forwarding. Pakistan has inherent problems as majority is Punjabi and others little have far more land than punjab much more. Pakistai army will not use nuclear arms as India can retaliate massively and decisively. My feeling is that my country will not use nuclear arms except in one case. It will not use N.Arms for Kashmir, the investment and losses will be written off slowly without saying or much fanfare. If GHQ feels Indians are dabbling in Sindh and encouraging JIYE Sindh types by subversive ways they will use N.Arms even at destruction of it self of even pakistan. East pakistan was different case, racially dark different, culturally diverse and troublesome but sindh is different case. Its like Ukrane for Russia. If sindh is lost it puts gods fear in Heart of army. Its punjabs underbelly. If you try touching underbelly of cat its like tiger. Even if Sindh problem arises in future best way to avoid N.exchange is to keep mum for india and special freeze army movements which threatens southern Punjab or Sindh border with India.
The war averted as Pakistan India wanted to avoid not due to some boasting by American officials.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

As a full blown pacifist, what I would really like to see is the destruction of all nuclear stockpiles across the world. I don`t feel comfortable with the thought that any Tom Dick or Harry could blow us all up without a second`s hesitation just coz he heard voices in his head or God told him to do it or whatever the excuse for the week is.

As I dont live in la-la land, I understand this is highly unlikely. So we will have to just wait like Einstein said for the end of the third WW so that we can fight the fourth with sticks and stones.

As far as this book is concerned, I really liked it - because it was the most a person could think outside his box when his box resembles the one Strobe Talbott lives in. I found it honest and entertaining and if I didnt fully agree with him here and there, well, i didnt write it did I?

Harimau, Ballukhan, Khamkhwa, Inquirer, Dost-mittar, Nikki7777, kaalchakra - thank you for writing in.

Harish - what can i say? I was surprised no one had written it yet. But its nice to see i actually beat someone to it. Sorry. As for ``civilization``, someone remarked the other day that it was nice to see young America-educated MPs on delegations abroad coz they were least likely to make diplomatic eyes glaze over with the usual ``ancient civilization`` speeches at the drop of a hat.

So thanks for reading all of you...

Re: kaalchakra #8

Everything in life is cyclic. No civilization can stay on the top forever. The west was in the dark ages for a 1000 years after the fall of the Roman empire. The ancestors of the same people that have built this magnificent civilization in Europe and USA, were the most ignorant and backward people obsessed with religion. The islamic world is currently in its dark age for almost 1000 years. At one time, muslim scholars were in the forefront of knowledge. Today the same islamic world produces homicidal maniacs like Osama and Saddam and the people are obsessed with religious fundamentalism.

Similarly, we hindus went through a bad patch roughly around the same time as the Christian world, when we adopted a rigorous caste system and became obsessed with religious mumbo-jumbo. The only difference is that we did not have a renaissance. Rather the west came to India and helped us pull out of our situation. We were quick learners and recognized our weaknesses. For the past 200 years, we have systematically fixed our weaknesses first in terms of social/religious norms and then as an independent nation. We still have a lot to do but at least we are on the right path. Incidentally the west is trying to do the same with the Islamic world today but it is very, very difficult there. That is why you see so much violence in Islamic societies today.