Branding Nations

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Re:labyrinth1#25

I think the two nation theory got destroyed first in 1971 when Bangladesh got created and finally in the nineties, when Mohajirs became second class citizens in Pakistan. Consider the following -

1. India has never tried to take over Bangladesh. This shows that India had no intentions of undoing partition even in 1971. So it is beyond imagination that India will try to do so today. Hence your fears of losing your ideals or religion based lifestyle are unfounded.

2. Pakistan has to this day refused to take back millions of muslim Biharis who were loyal Pakistani citizens that got stranded in Bangladesh. These people live in wretched refugee camps in Bangladesh. This one act proved to everyone that Pakistan did not really care even about its own ideology as a homeland of Indian muslims.

3. Mohajirs in Karachi and elsewhere have become second class citizens in Pakistan, when it was their efforts that resulted in the creation of Pakistan in the first place. This has happened due to their ethnicity as they are looked down as ``Bhaiyaas`` by the Punjabis in Pakistan.

Given the behavior towards the Bihari muslims and Mohajirs, it is very hypocritical of Pakistan to talk about Kashmiris and their human rights. On what basis do you claim Kashmir? It cannot be Islam when you refuse to taken even your own Bihari muslim citizens back into your own country? Also you mistreat large segments of Mohajirs just because of their ethnicity. The only conclusion that comes out is that Pakistan lusts for the land of Kashmir and it tries to hide that lust in terms of talk about human rights etc.

The problem is that Pakistan uses religious symbols and religious ideology. This appeals to the emotions of Kashmiri muslims and also a lot of Indian muslims. They forget their own self-interest in the process and look at Pakistan with rose-tinted glasses, when the track record of Pakistan towards muslims is not that great (let alone non-muslims!!).

India recognizes this matter and hence does not give too much weightage to what the Pak army says about Kashmir. I know that India needs to do a lot more for muslims in India and it will do so in the future. In fact as the economy improves, Indian muslims are getting more and more into the mainstream and will prosper and succeed in India. As far as Kashmir is concerned, India has made lots of efforts to give them free elections and control over their destiny. Kashmiri muslims are in charge of Kashmir. The only thing they don`t have is political merger with Pakistan. Other than that, they get everything else in India. India will talk to Pakistan to negotiate on some compromises that allows free movement of people etc but it will not give any territory.

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In reply to #25 by labyrinth1
``your comment proves that India is no more secular - India is Hindo Country if I buy your idea ``

I have no clue how you came to such a conclusion. I was responding to your comments based on the views you have about India. If you don`t remeber here are the words you wrote : ``We Pakistanis will accept a Responsible India rather then same old Hindu Mentality Type India who wants to dominate Nepal , Pakistan Bangladesh Srilanka Bhutan etc.. etc.. ``

Regarding secularism and religion, if it were for me I would have banned all the religions in the world from public and social spheres unlike you who still thinks that a 7th century Arab tribal has answers for the 21st century world.

``Pakistan as I said and I know you are one of those etreme one`s will defend
her borders even if we have to use ` the bomb ` n etreme cases - its a very
big part of our Nuke Doctrine - we have a first strike policy - thanks to Bhajpaye ``

Even Bhutan will defend its border against agression. Nothing new in that. As I said earlier we have our own headaches to deal with, we DO NOT desire Pakistan. Just keep your jihadis on your soil. Thats all we want from your janbaaz fauz. Also, pak had that nuclear policy long before Vajpaiye, you don`t have to thank him.

Could you please elaborate on
``Pres.Mushraff`s offer on Kashmir is the boldest offer one could
ever imagine ( and is silently backed by most of Pakistanis ) ``

``same goes for us Pakistanis who are insure about our defence and not only
want to defend `idealogy of Pakistan` but to defend our beliefs which are based on Islam.``

Against whom do you have to defend your beliefs on Islam in a country where the non-muslim minorities are less than 1-2%?

You still havn`t come clean on your statement regarding ``same old Hindu Mentality `` I asked you earlier.

Jai Hind

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Amit , Altaf Hussain or any other leaders alike ( including Nationalists of Baluchistan and NWFP ) do give such comments to be in press honestly ,
same Altaf Hussain wants Pakistan to completly wave off visa restrictions of
Muslims of India and Bangladesh ( this means he ( Altaf Hussain ) also
believes that Pakistan is for Muslims of India something like Isreal is for
Jews of the world . Altaf Hussain still thinks Two Nation Theory was right but
the Politicians and the Feudrals ( including Man in Khaki ) proved it wrong
when East Pakistan got Independent.
Amit I do agree with you , the biggest problem our ( India and Pakistan ) is
Kashmir which is somehow ignored by Indians I don`t know why ! you see
the terrorism , unrest and defence budget hikes is coz of Kashmir - and
same goes for us Pakistanis who are insure about our defence and not only
want to defend `idealogy of Pakistan` but to defend our beliefs which are based on Islam. We are wasting our resources on Kashmir more then India
is wasting so Kashmir is a problem for us as well which needs to be
addressed . Pres.Mushraff`s offer on Kashmir is the boldest offer one could
ever imagine ( and is silently backed by most of Pakistanis ) but somehow
its the Indians who ignore it for unknown reasons. They ( Indians ) put
three foot foward and then suddenly you guys leaps back 10-12 feet either
Indian Government is confused or there`s no one bold enough like Mushraff.
As I said , Kashmir is a problem , biggest problem recognized by UN
either UN is powerless or not but UNSC Resolution was passed on it ; Americans and EU recognized the problem and there is US diplomacy going
behind everytime that Pakistan and India talk more on Kashmir . I know its
hard for Indians but I am sure there will be someone who will be bold enough
from the other side.
Netizen , I don`t hate anyone - and for you saying over my comment that
``We Pakistanis would never ever accept Indian dominance over us `` - my comment -
( Netizen`s replying on my comment wrote Post 6) that
How odd, you are o.k. with dominance from other non-muslim people viz. U.S and China. I understand your hatred for hindoos will never allow you to accept ``Hindoo dominance``.
your comment proves that India is no more secular - India is Hindo Country if I buy your idea -
Pakistan as I said and I know you are one of those etreme one`s will defend
her borders even if we have to use ` the bomb ` n etreme cases - its a very
big part of our Nuke Doctrine - we have a first strike policy - thanks to Bhajpaye

re:#20 by amit
I am just surprised that you still seem to think India can do business with Pak.
Pakistan is an ``ideological state`` with all the implications that this label carries.
Why should Pak change its age old rivalry with India when it has not yet shed its ideological label? Has it declared itself a secular state? No, it is still an Islamic country.
Has it ushered in democracy then? A democratic Pakistan would listen to the wishes of its people and, if its people really want friendship with India, a democratic pakistan would then be forced to change its policies to honor that wish. The reality today is: Paksitan is ruled by a self -proclaimed dictator who can change his tactics at will.

(My point is that we have to get over this needless, mindless rivalry between two countries that really should have brotherly relations. Otherwise, people outside take advantage of it and try to harm us both. )
To most Pakis, it is honorable to side with anyone in order to show themselves superior to India. This is the reason why they have sold their freedom to outsiders (US, China) but the dole that they are getting from these masters will be enough to make them believe they have achieved parity with India. That is all the Army wants. People just want to believe that they are as good, if not better than Indians. This is typical of an ideological state. This is what happened to Soviet Union and if left to themselves, Pakis will self-destruct, just like the Soviet Union did. I see no reason why India should interfere in that process.
Sridhar

re: this article
(Our image building campaign should therefore, not be based on apologies. It should focus on projecting the role models, the many individuals, groups and organisations that are rendering valuable service for the common man in the field of health, education, economy, women empowerment, care for the orphans, environment and in creating religious and ethnic tolerance)
Good idea.
But what if Pak common man does not care about the role models that u have in mind. For eg, how popular is Edhi and his work among the common man? Osama bin Laden is still considered a hero by more than 80% Pakis. So, there is the role model for u guys. Osama bin Laden!
The idea of a country`s image is only as good as its people. Pakis are still not sure what Pak shoud be. I keep reading about these debates that are basic to any country`s very foundation. Should Pak be secular or Islamic? Should it be a democracy or should it tolerate dictatorship (as if Pakis have a choice in the matter!), so on and so forth.
Pakis are ready to go to war with India on Kashmir but do not mind when USA dictates its foreign policies and IMF has taken over its financial decision making.
Before showcasing Pakistan, it would be good to decide what Pak stands for. It is what Pak does at home that matters. You can`t project a good image of a country if it is mired in a number of problems including terrorism, jehad, ethnic rivalries etc.
India, despite its recent GDP growth in the last 10 years, is still considered a poor third world country in the West because it has not been able to solve the problems of an average India who lives in its villages. The day that happens, India does not have to showcase its image. That image will automatically beam across the world radar without much efforts.
Reality matters more than perception. The author of this article seems to have forgotten that.
Sridhar

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Re:laybyrinth1#21

It is interesting to hear that you are a MQM leader. What do you think of Altaf Hussain`s recent statements in Delhi? He called the 2 nation theory and partition a blunder.

I think if we have good relations as equals, we can create an atmosphere of trust to solve Kashmir and other issues. We need to change the mindset on both sides of viewing each other as the enemy. Once that stops, all problems can be solved.

I reply to #21 by labyrinth1

I am still waiting for your reply on my commet #12.

``I am a student leader of one of the most liberal Pakistani Political Party MQM . ``

If these are the views of a leader of the most ``liberal`` movement in Pakistan I wonder what the extremist have in their mind. No wonder Kashmir problem won`t go away that easily.

``we in Pakistan whatever political party or class we belong to wants equality in relationship ``

So what you want India to do? Bisband half of its military, Give up the blue water Navy, dump half of its plane in the indian ocean, give Srinagar to Pakistan, NE to bangladesh, Sikkim and Auranachal to China, shut down ISRO, IT , Pharma companies. I guess this will make Pakis happy and satisfied.

`` and Kashmir Issue to be solved before we go along to build any kind of understanding ``

Which BTW means to give half of IOK to Pakistan on a platter. Dream on, dreams are free.

``we learned a lesson which was that we could not afford to go on a full-sclae war with India at the momment ``

There comes the honest comment from the leader of the most ``liberal`` movement in Pakistan, ``at the momment `` which shows your mentality. You cannot win a conventional war with India currently, hence want parity so as to increase your chances.


``us who wants Kashmir to be free ? or Indians who are totally ignoring the Kashmiris ? or Kashmiris themselves who if lets say they dont want to become part of Pakistan but certainly they don`t want to live under fake secular rule ! ``

Who cares for your views on Kashmir or any thing outside Pakistan? If you are still thinking that you will convince Indians to give away Srinagar, then its futile. Go and train the mujahids, they still have many centuries to wage jihad in Kashmir.

Jai Hind

Amit And Others :
if anyone assumes I am a hindu hater or a hardcore Nationalist I am not ! I am a student leader of one of the most liberal Pakistani Political Party MQM .

Amit as I said before everyone in Pakistan and India wants `normalization of relationship` - and theres no doubt we are moving towards a relationship which will be good but not what you want a ` alliance ` ; we in Pakistan whatever political party or class we belong to wants equality in relationship - and Kashmir Issue to be solved before we go along to build any kind of understanding . I agree at times we never made an honest attempt to resolve Kashmir Issue but after Kargil ( we learned a lesson which was that we could not afford to go on a full-sclae war with India at the momment and thats Indians would never dare to attack our Lower Eastern and Mid Eastern Borders ) things have changed, we the issues to be settled but Indians are somehow far away from reality they are allergic to the `K` word so theres midtrust let there be no doubt.
Pakistan ( s ) problems are not yours as I could come up with economical and political problems of India which is far more then ours ( Pakistan ) - so the bottom line is whos to blame ? us who wants Kashmir to be free ? or Indians who are totally ignoring the Kashmiris ? or Kashmiris themselves who if lets say they dont want to become part of Pakistan but certainly they don`t want to live under fake secular rule !

Look fellows, the whole goddamn point of Pakistan is that it is not India, there is really very little else. That is Pakistan`s brand and India`s is well India.

Re:labyrinth1#13

India has never let Russia or any other country dictate terms to it like the way US or China dictates terms to Pakistan. In particular, the US treats Pakistan like dirt and you know it. India has always been very careful about not letting anyone control it in such a blatant way. Pakistan has allowed this to happen because it beleives that it needs US support against India. This is where the mistake is.

I will give you an example. When Ibrahim Lodhi was ruling Delhi, many Afghan nobles in Lahore and Rana Sanga of Mewar resented him. So they went to Babur in Kabul and asked him for his help to get rid of Ibrahim Lodhi. Guess what happened? Babur certainly got rid of Ibrahim Lodhi. But he also killed the Afghan nobles and Rana Sanga to establish Mughal rule. My point is that we have to get over this needless, mindless rivalry between two countries that really should have brotherly relations. Otherwise, people outside take advantage of it and try to harm us both. You know quite well that India does not have the means or the interest in controlling Pakistan. You also know that India has rejected hindu nationalism in favor of secularism with a Sikh PM, Muslim President, Sikh Army Chief and Italian Christian political leader!! Moreover Pakistan is not exactly in great shape with your problems of fundamentalism, dictatorship, bad economy etc. So it is a no-brainer for India and Pakistan to get closer and become friends if not allies. We have tried the other way and look where are. Why not try something that makes sense?

Umer,
my email address is yahya@comsats.net.pk

Yahya

temporal,
you have correctly identified some role models. What we need to do is to project the good deeds of ordinary Pakistanis, in the media. I am sure you also know of so many in different fields, education, health, women empowerment, human rights etc. We means the governement and the media ( a larg part of which is in the private sector). If you look at our print media it is full on negativity. We must put out more positive stories. There are many. We need to create a balance in the way we project ourselves. I have a complete format on how to do it, that I will be posting soon on the site.
regards
Yahya