Branding Nations

re: M.B.Z.Isphahani # 46

The experience of shaking hands is not a reliable proof supporting your nonsensical beliefs and baseless accusations.

Also, why do you hate Aga Khan so? Is it because as everyone knows Aga Khan and his followers are actually Hindus?


nikki

Unity is a good. But unity sought for violent military purposes against supposed others quickly becomes self-destructive. M.B.Z.Isphahani theatens only Muslims.

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tesah

Ironic indeed that laws victimize often those who need them the least, and are ineffective against the lawless.

There is a similar situation in the US. The two groups who seem to enter this country most easily are the illegal immigrants and the terrorists.



M.B.Z.Isphahani

No. It is not called the ``kase`` of winners or the ``kase`` of whiners. It is called the ``kase`` of people who have made lying a habit being asked to account for their statements.

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Re:teshah#42

That is an absolute shame!! Our visa policies must be changed. I heard that recently India has taken some unilateral steps where Pakistani students can now study in Indian institutions. Also visiting senior citizens above 65 years age will not have to report to police. There is still a whole lot that we should do to make travel and business easier between the two countries. In fact, this is one area where India should continue to make unilateral moves. The more we have people to people interaction, the more likely that we can win the hearts and minds of Pakistani people and resolve all our issues.

33 by amit

There is no doubt that Pakistan`s future lies with India, the mother country. It is however a sad fact that I could travel the world over but could not get the visa to visit India. My only fault was that I was born in that part of India (West Punjab) which later on came to be called as Pakistan. How paradoxical it is when jihadi terrorists, according to the Indian Government, can enter that country at will but they refuse visa to a senior citizen of about 75 who wished to see India and his old friends who had migrated thereto. The treatment meted out to me at the High Commission for India was so insulting that I could have become a `Jihadi` but for my age.

M.B.Z.Isphahani

You are right to be concerned that Hinduism is being `promoted` in Islamic countries. Consider this proposal from the Hindu side: We will withdraw all traces of Hinduism from Islamic countries., you remove all of Islam from India. Deal?


``Bomb malays indonesians Thais muslim to convert them into buddhism

The facts are -

In Malaysia, we have not heard of Muslims being bombed so they could be converted to Buddhism. Malaysia is one of the few countries Muslims are proud to use as a role model. Only you know why they would want to turn Muslims into Buddhists.

In Indonesia, Muslims have been bombing other people.

In Thailand, Muslims have been bombing others.

Again Mr. M.B.Z.Isphahani, do you use words only to paint black into white and white into black?

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Happy new year to Chowk readers, writers, inter-actors, and staff. May you see many more.

Mohammad Gill

This is for labyrinth1. For a student of international politics you are either a novice or a poor student. India will outperform Pakistan with the status quo. However peace will benefit both sides. I expect anti-climatic end to Indo-Pakistani rivalry when a future Pakistani government calls it quits in face of growing Indian economic and military power.

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In reply to #35 by labyrinth1

I have found out that either Pakis have a shallow understanding of Indians or they think they can put their own spin on a discussion.
Earlier it was Romair talking about how much Pakistanis like/love Indians and its the indians who are ignorant about the affection Pakistan/Pakis have for indians. When several facts were pointed out to him, he was never seen on the bulletin board.

Now we have Mr. Labyrinth1, who seems to be lost in the labyrinth of logic. He was on his way to explain how difficult it is for Pak to continue with its defence program. The solution: India should hand over Srinagar to Pak. Also, because 100% of Pakis agree with Mushy`s plan (Labyrinth still hasn`t revealed what it is), hence India should also.

Labyrinth, open your eyes and ears only then you will realise that the ``rhethoric`` has turned into reality.

Jai Hind

Rhetoric and More Rhetoric -

I was thinking and I could have come up with scores of comments and
counter comments -theres no use of commenting this would not lead us to a constructive discussion . ( Indians on this forum and I know this doesn`t represent anyone in India and the comments of interacters means nothing or comes even close to Indian Government stance )

Re:M.B.Z #32

Ha ha ha!! Good joke!! You expect Saudi Arabia and Iran to dissolve borders with Pakistan? What kind of drugs are you smoking? These countries treat Pakistani visitors like garbage. They look down at all desis as belonging to inferior races, no matter how much Islam you practice in front of them. These countries fall at the feet of American or European visitors but they treat Pakistanis (and Indians) like lepers. You expect them to open their borders to millions of Pakistanis? In fact none of the countries on your list will open borders with you. They will not even consider a economic grouping with you. The only country that will actually consider anything with you is India. If you don`t believe me, go ahead and bring it up in the OIC. You will get the humiliation of a lifetime!!

A few years back, when the Central Asian Republics were becoming free, Pakistan thought that it was a great opportunity to make a Islamic block starting from Central Asia to Pakistan. All these countries told Pakistan to get lost. You guys need to realize that your destiny lies with India, whether you like it or not. India is the only country that will treat you with respect and give you a place at the table. Also, stop dreaming about breaking up India. It will never happen.

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Re:labyrinth1#25

I think the two nation theory got destroyed first in 1971 when Bangladesh got created and finally in the nineties, when Mohajirs became second class citizens in Pakistan. Consider the following -

1. India has never tried to take over Bangladesh. This shows that India had no intentions of undoing partition even in 1971. So it is beyond imagination that India will try to do so today. Hence your fears of losing your ideals or religion based lifestyle are unfounded.

2. Pakistan has to this day refused to take back millions of muslim Biharis who were loyal Pakistani citizens that got stranded in Bangladesh. These people live in wretched refugee camps in Bangladesh. This one act proved to everyone that Pakistan did not really care even about its own ideology as a homeland of Indian muslims.

3. Mohajirs in Karachi and elsewhere have become second class citizens in Pakistan, when it was their efforts that resulted in the creation of Pakistan in the first place. This has happened due to their ethnicity as they are looked down as ``Bhaiyaas`` by the Punjabis in Pakistan.

Given the behavior towards the Bihari muslims and Mohajirs, it is very hypocritical of Pakistan to talk about Kashmiris and their human rights. On what basis do you claim Kashmir? It cannot be Islam when you refuse to taken even your own Bihari muslim citizens back into your own country? Also you mistreat large segments of Mohajirs just because of their ethnicity. The only conclusion that comes out is that Pakistan lusts for the land of Kashmir and it tries to hide that lust in terms of talk about human rights etc.

The problem is that Pakistan uses religious symbols and religious ideology. This appeals to the emotions of Kashmiri muslims and also a lot of Indian muslims. They forget their own self-interest in the process and look at Pakistan with rose-tinted glasses, when the track record of Pakistan towards muslims is not that great (let alone non-muslims!!).

India recognizes this matter and hence does not give too much weightage to what the Pak army says about Kashmir. I know that India needs to do a lot more for muslims in India and it will do so in the future. In fact as the economy improves, Indian muslims are getting more and more into the mainstream and will prosper and succeed in India. As far as Kashmir is concerned, India has made lots of efforts to give them free elections and control over their destiny. Kashmiri muslims are in charge of Kashmir. The only thing they don`t have is political merger with Pakistan. Other than that, they get everything else in India. India will talk to Pakistan to negotiate on some compromises that allows free movement of people etc but it will not give any territory.

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In reply to #25 by labyrinth1
``your comment proves that India is no more secular - India is Hindo Country if I buy your idea ``

I have no clue how you came to such a conclusion. I was responding to your comments based on the views you have about India. If you don`t remeber here are the words you wrote : ``We Pakistanis will accept a Responsible India rather then same old Hindu Mentality Type India who wants to dominate Nepal , Pakistan Bangladesh Srilanka Bhutan etc.. etc.. ``

Regarding secularism and religion, if it were for me I would have banned all the religions in the world from public and social spheres unlike you who still thinks that a 7th century Arab tribal has answers for the 21st century world.

``Pakistan as I said and I know you are one of those etreme one`s will defend
her borders even if we have to use ` the bomb ` n etreme cases - its a very
big part of our Nuke Doctrine - we have a first strike policy - thanks to Bhajpaye ``

Even Bhutan will defend its border against agression. Nothing new in that. As I said earlier we have our own headaches to deal with, we DO NOT desire Pakistan. Just keep your jihadis on your soil. Thats all we want from your janbaaz fauz. Also, pak had that nuclear policy long before Vajpaiye, you don`t have to thank him.

Could you please elaborate on
``Pres.Mushraff`s offer on Kashmir is the boldest offer one could
ever imagine ( and is silently backed by most of Pakistanis ) ``

``same goes for us Pakistanis who are insure about our defence and not only
want to defend `idealogy of Pakistan` but to defend our beliefs which are based on Islam.``

Against whom do you have to defend your beliefs on Islam in a country where the non-muslim minorities are less than 1-2%?

You still havn`t come clean on your statement regarding ``same old Hindu Mentality `` I asked you earlier.

Jai Hind

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Amit , Altaf Hussain or any other leaders alike ( including Nationalists of Baluchistan and NWFP ) do give such comments to be in press honestly ,
same Altaf Hussain wants Pakistan to completly wave off visa restrictions of
Muslims of India and Bangladesh ( this means he ( Altaf Hussain ) also
believes that Pakistan is for Muslims of India something like Isreal is for
Jews of the world . Altaf Hussain still thinks Two Nation Theory was right but
the Politicians and the Feudrals ( including Man in Khaki ) proved it wrong
when East Pakistan got Independent.
Amit I do agree with you , the biggest problem our ( India and Pakistan ) is
Kashmir which is somehow ignored by Indians I don`t know why ! you see
the terrorism , unrest and defence budget hikes is coz of Kashmir - and
same goes for us Pakistanis who are insure about our defence and not only
want to defend `idealogy of Pakistan` but to defend our beliefs which are based on Islam. We are wasting our resources on Kashmir more then India
is wasting so Kashmir is a problem for us as well which needs to be
addressed . Pres.Mushraff`s offer on Kashmir is the boldest offer one could
ever imagine ( and is silently backed by most of Pakistanis ) but somehow
its the Indians who ignore it for unknown reasons. They ( Indians ) put
three foot foward and then suddenly you guys leaps back 10-12 feet either
Indian Government is confused or there`s no one bold enough like Mushraff.
As I said , Kashmir is a problem , biggest problem recognized by UN
either UN is powerless or not but UNSC Resolution was passed on it ; Americans and EU recognized the problem and there is US diplomacy going
behind everytime that Pakistan and India talk more on Kashmir . I know its
hard for Indians but I am sure there will be someone who will be bold enough
from the other side.
Netizen , I don`t hate anyone - and for you saying over my comment that
``We Pakistanis would never ever accept Indian dominance over us `` - my comment -
( Netizen`s replying on my comment wrote Post 6) that
How odd, you are o.k. with dominance from other non-muslim people viz. U.S and China. I understand your hatred for hindoos will never allow you to accept ``Hindoo dominance``.
your comment proves that India is no more secular - India is Hindo Country if I buy your idea -
Pakistan as I said and I know you are one of those etreme one`s will defend
her borders even if we have to use ` the bomb ` n etreme cases - its a very
big part of our Nuke Doctrine - we have a first strike policy - thanks to Bhajpaye

re:#20 by amit
I am just surprised that you still seem to think India can do business with Pak.
Pakistan is an ``ideological state`` with all the implications that this label carries.
Why should Pak change its age old rivalry with India when it has not yet shed its ideological label? Has it declared itself a secular state? No, it is still an Islamic country.
Has it ushered in democracy then? A democratic Pakistan would listen to the wishes of its people and, if its people really want friendship with India, a democratic pakistan would then be forced to change its policies to honor that wish. The reality today is: Paksitan is ruled by a self -proclaimed dictator who can change his tactics at will.

(My point is that we have to get over this needless, mindless rivalry between two countries that really should have brotherly relations. Otherwise, people outside take advantage of it and try to harm us both. )
To most Pakis, it is honorable to side with anyone in order to show themselves superior to India. This is the reason why they have sold their freedom to outsiders (US, China) but the dole that they are getting from these masters will be enough to make them believe they have achieved parity with India. That is all the Army wants. People just want to believe that they are as good, if not better than Indians. This is typical of an ideological state. This is what happened to Soviet Union and if left to themselves, Pakis will self-destruct, just like the Soviet Union did. I see no reason why India should interfere in that process.
Sridhar

re: this article
(Our image building campaign should therefore, not be based on apologies. It should focus on projecting the role models, the many individuals, groups and organisations that are rendering valuable service for the common man in the field of health, education, economy, women empowerment, care for the orphans, environment and in creating religious and ethnic tolerance)
Good idea.
But what if Pak common man does not care about the role models that u have in mind. For eg, how popular is Edhi and his work among the common man? Osama bin Laden is still considered a hero by more than 80% Pakis. So, there is the role model for u guys. Osama bin Laden!
The idea of a country`s image is only as good as its people. Pakis are still not sure what Pak shoud be. I keep reading about these debates that are basic to any country`s very foundation. Should Pak be secular or Islamic? Should it be a democracy or should it tolerate dictatorship (as if Pakis have a choice in the matter!), so on and so forth.
Pakis are ready to go to war with India on Kashmir but do not mind when USA dictates its foreign policies and IMF has taken over its financial decision making.
Before showcasing Pakistan, it would be good to decide what Pak stands for. It is what Pak does at home that matters. You can`t project a good image of a country if it is mired in a number of problems including terrorism, jehad, ethnic rivalries etc.
India, despite its recent GDP growth in the last 10 years, is still considered a poor third world country in the West because it has not been able to solve the problems of an average India who lives in its villages. The day that happens, India does not have to showcase its image. That image will automatically beam across the world radar without much efforts.
Reality matters more than perception. The author of this article seems to have forgotten that.
Sridhar

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Re:laybyrinth1#21

It is interesting to hear that you are a MQM leader. What do you think of Altaf Hussain`s recent statements in Delhi? He called the 2 nation theory and partition a blunder.

I think if we have good relations as equals, we can create an atmosphere of trust to solve Kashmir and other issues. We need to change the mindset on both sides of viewing each other as the enemy. Once that stops, all problems can be solved.

I reply to #21 by labyrinth1

I am still waiting for your reply on my commet #12.

``I am a student leader of one of the most liberal Pakistani Political Party MQM . ``

If these are the views of a leader of the most ``liberal`` movement in Pakistan I wonder what the extremist have in their mind. No wonder Kashmir problem won`t go away that easily.

``we in Pakistan whatever political party or class we belong to wants equality in relationship ``

So what you want India to do? Bisband half of its military, Give up the blue water Navy, dump half of its plane in the indian ocean, give Srinagar to Pakistan, NE to bangladesh, Sikkim and Auranachal to China, shut down ISRO, IT , Pharma companies. I guess this will make Pakis happy and satisfied.

`` and Kashmir Issue to be solved before we go along to build any kind of understanding ``

Which BTW means to give half of IOK to Pakistan on a platter. Dream on, dreams are free.

``we learned a lesson which was that we could not afford to go on a full-sclae war with India at the momment ``

There comes the honest comment from the leader of the most ``liberal`` movement in Pakistan, ``at the momment `` which shows your mentality. You cannot win a conventional war with India currently, hence want parity so as to increase your chances.


``us who wants Kashmir to be free ? or Indians who are totally ignoring the Kashmiris ? or Kashmiris themselves who if lets say they dont want to become part of Pakistan but certainly they don`t want to live under fake secular rule ! ``

Who cares for your views on Kashmir or any thing outside Pakistan? If you are still thinking that you will convince Indians to give away Srinagar, then its futile. Go and train the mujahids, they still have many centuries to wage jihad in Kashmir.

Jai Hind

Amit And Others :
if anyone assumes I am a hindu hater or a hardcore Nationalist I am not ! I am a student leader of one of the most liberal Pakistani Political Party MQM .

Amit as I said before everyone in Pakistan and India wants `normalization of relationship` - and theres no doubt we are moving towards a relationship which will be good but not what you want a ` alliance ` ; we in Pakistan whatever political party or class we belong to wants equality in relationship - and Kashmir Issue to be solved before we go along to build any kind of understanding . I agree at times we never made an honest attempt to resolve Kashmir Issue but after Kargil ( we learned a lesson which was that we could not afford to go on a full-sclae war with India at the momment and thats Indians would never dare to attack our Lower Eastern and Mid Eastern Borders ) things have changed, we the issues to be settled but Indians are somehow far away from reality they are allergic to the `K` word so theres midtrust let there be no doubt.
Pakistan ( s ) problems are not yours as I could come up with economical and political problems of India which is far more then ours ( Pakistan ) - so the bottom line is whos to blame ? us who wants Kashmir to be free ? or Indians who are totally ignoring the Kashmiris ? or Kashmiris themselves who if lets say they dont want to become part of Pakistan but certainly they don`t want to live under fake secular rule !

Look fellows, the whole goddamn point of Pakistan is that it is not India, there is really very little else. That is Pakistan`s brand and India`s is well India.

Re:labyrinth1#13

India has never let Russia or any other country dictate terms to it like the way US or China dictates terms to Pakistan. In particular, the US treats Pakistan like dirt and you know it. India has always been very careful about not letting anyone control it in such a blatant way. Pakistan has allowed this to happen because it beleives that it needs US support against India. This is where the mistake is.

I will give you an example. When Ibrahim Lodhi was ruling Delhi, many Afghan nobles in Lahore and Rana Sanga of Mewar resented him. So they went to Babur in Kabul and asked him for his help to get rid of Ibrahim Lodhi. Guess what happened? Babur certainly got rid of Ibrahim Lodhi. But he also killed the Afghan nobles and Rana Sanga to establish Mughal rule. My point is that we have to get over this needless, mindless rivalry between two countries that really should have brotherly relations. Otherwise, people outside take advantage of it and try to harm us both. You know quite well that India does not have the means or the interest in controlling Pakistan. You also know that India has rejected hindu nationalism in favor of secularism with a Sikh PM, Muslim President, Sikh Army Chief and Italian Christian political leader!! Moreover Pakistan is not exactly in great shape with your problems of fundamentalism, dictatorship, bad economy etc. So it is a no-brainer for India and Pakistan to get closer and become friends if not allies. We have tried the other way and look where are. Why not try something that makes sense?

Umer,
my email address is yahya@comsats.net.pk

Yahya

temporal,
you have correctly identified some role models. What we need to do is to project the good deeds of ordinary Pakistanis, in the media. I am sure you also know of so many in different fields, education, health, women empowerment, human rights etc. We means the governement and the media ( a larg part of which is in the private sector). If you look at our print media it is full on negativity. We must put out more positive stories. There are many. We need to create a balance in the way we project ourselves. I have a complete format on how to do it, that I will be posting soon on the site.
regards
Yahya

temporal,
you have correctly identified some role models. What we need to do is to project the good deeds of ordinary Pakistanis, in the media. I am sure you also know of so many in different fields, education, health, women empowerment, human rights etc. We means the governement and the media ( a large part of which is in the private sector). If you look at our print media it is full of negativity. We must put out more positive stories. There are many. We need to create a balance in the way we project ourselves. I have a complete format on how to do it, that I will be posting soon on the site.
regards
Yahya

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Labyrinth1:

1) The Relationship with USSR is more like buyer-seller. And Russia of today is 1/3 of Indian economy. India controls the relationship. India is the biggest buyer and it is more of an equal relationship coz India and Russia jointly developed the Bbrahmos missile and the next generation fighter aircraft. Can you say the same about US-PAK realtionship? The answer is an obvious NO.

2) China-India trade has already breached $10 billion and growing steady. Already China has made U-Turns and now supports India for UN seat. As trade increases China will completely stop any facade of supporting Pak stand. They already advised you not to bring kashmir issue and asked you to withdraw from kargil.

3) Saudis not allowing hindus to enter mecaa CLEARLY SHOWS THE FACISM of the MULLAH WAHHABIS, not something to be gleeful about. Its a SHAME.

4) Kashmir is already settled. LOC or Status Quo. The whole world is OK with LOC,including US and China. There is no way pak can do anything about it. And even `LOC as border` is valid only at present. As Indian stand gets better in the coming decade, India might even demand more and get more. So Pak better get the best offer on hand. I am simply stating a simple fact.

5) OIC is only a talking forum. Means nothing in Real life. And in a MUSLIM talking forum all muslims talk BS about united Ummah and forget about it the next day. Or worse go back to fight the sunni-shia, Arab-Persian and many other intra-muslim fights. If you wanna test the Muslim loyalty, GO and Check the UN voting records of the muslim countries on Kashmir and 1965, 1971 and other wars. You will be surprised that majority muslim nations voted with India and the significant minority abstained. Where does that leave PAK?

6) No Bangladeshi wants to join with Pak. Dont dream. They, like Pakistanis, simply resent a powerful India in their backyard. Simple case of a brother with much less resource being envious of the blood brother`s big resource and power next door.

7) You say that you dont mind that India being BIG Brother. But you have a denial problem that the big brother which is currently 10.5 times bigger economically and increasing the gap every passing year. 7 times more population , 4 times more land and about 2 times better army, atleast 5 times better AF and atleast 8 times better Navy. And you go back to say there should be equality and parity between the two. Just be realistic. How can there be a parity when the size is so heavily loaded towards India in all factors. The parity you wish WILL BE THERE AS PER THE ECONOMIC Ratio of 1:10. India can afford to spend 10 times more than Pak on defense. Infact, currently Indian defense budget is bigger than the entire PAK budget. HOW CAN THERE BE PARITY? You gotta learn to live with that reality. In hindsight, Partition was a blow to Pakistan and Bangladesh, Not for India. It is actually beneficial for India coz they dont have to deal with the terrorist problems and out of control mullahs living in 600AD and doing everything to take Pak into 600 AD.

Labyrinth: ONE REQUEST. Please read everything I have said before answering coz you get emotional and not answer me on points and logic and go off on unrelated tangent.

I reply to #6 by labyrinth1

``We Pakistanis would never ever accept Indian dominance over us ``

How odd, you are o.k. with dominance from other non-muslim people viz. U.S and China. I understand your hatred for hindoos will never allow you to accept ``Hindoo dominance``.

``Pakistan in 71 ( another enemy ) on there Eastern Border ( look at the situation at the borders ) ``

What can you expect from muslims. They are the same whether they speak punjabi or bengali. Hence india has started to build a fence there too.

``We Pakistanis will accept a Responsible India rather then same old Hindu Mentality Type India who wants to``
I am quite amused with this line. Could you please elaborate on this. With paki hindu population less than .5% I wonder where you had such experiences with hindus.

``Indians got everything they needed when they started while we never had anything yes we made economical and political mistakes but we are on the right track now . ``

You still are making economical mistakes like not selling the surplus electricity/sugar, not buying coal from india (rather than from australia) and tying all economical and commercial decisions to Kashmir.


``whatever she does could control small nations like Srilanka or Nepal but not us Pakistanis we will fight with them until we die . ``

Controlling pakistan? Is even Mushy in control of NWFP or Karachi? We in india alrady have heaches like bihar and u.p , don`t want even bigger headaches like pakistan. All india will like from pak is to stop the terror tap.

Replying Amit and singularity)
Amit licking American and Chinese boots I assume is better then rimming USSR`s A** for 50 years and the story goes on - Everyone has there own interest we have ours and China have there(s) and somehow
we are getting good in it agree on not ; Yes, I agree with you about treatment of Pakistanis in Middle East but come again to my knowledge
Hindus are not even allowed to enter Mecca and Medina! Anyhow lets
Move on to Kashmir - Kashmir Cause is one of the two biggest issues
which were agreed by all Muslim Countries according to OIC ( whatever
OIC is now adays ) -
Amit Indians are treated by us ( Pakistanis ) same as Indians treat us with
warmth and will do so but that is a whole different issue . 71 was yes our
fault but backed by Indians same Bangolis now regret that they helped
Mujeeb and those who don`t are no fan of Indians . Yes I agree Ind-o-Pak
Relationship would be good for both countries but going against China
( which Americans want ) will never be accepted by us (Pakistanis) . My
forefathers were born in India and I personally travelled to see our houses back in India - I am of Indian Origin that is my origin but my nationality is
Pakistani and thats where I am from . I would love if we ( Pakistanis and
Indians ) become good friends thats my wish but if we really became
strategic partners that will not be on Indian terms. As I said , we Pakistanis think of India as Big Brother an respect her as a big nation and that’s about it .
Pakistan and India could be partners only if there’ s equality and balance in relationship and our relationship is not against any third country.

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Yahya,

What differentiates nations is the perception about them and the quality of their ‘brand’.

I admire the positive tone of the aritcle. However in the above, I think it`s the other way around.

Re:labyrinth1#6

You are speaking of honor. What is the honor in licking the boots of US, China and Islamic world all your life? You have done that for 60 years and what has it got you? Nothing. The US humiliates you and uses you at will. They pushed you to fight their proxy war in Afghanistan with disastrous results for your own country. They humiliated you publicly during Kargil. The Pentagon orders you to kill your own people in South Waziristan. China uses you to compete against India. You don`t get much economic benefit from China unlike other Asian countries. The Islamic world keeps you at an arms length and doesn`t even give you half-hearted support on Kashmir. Any visitor from Pakistan is treated very shabbily in middle-east countries, just like any other person from the subcontinent.

In contrast to all this, India is one country where Pakistanis are treated with respect and almost like celebrities. Any visitor from Pakistan is treated with warmth and hospitality that is reserved for family members. In spite of all the bad blood, India never started any war with Pakistan. Even 1971 war was officially started by Pakistan. Your tragedy is that you have never been able to identify your true friend whose people care about you and instead gone to other countries who don`t give a s$it about you. If India and Pakistan can have a real friendship based on mutual respect, we can become a superpower that can easily challenge China and eventually the west. Unfortunately we desis have the ancient bad habit of fighting with each other all the time, even as outsiders exploit our weaknesses and take advantage of us.

Yahya,

Would it be okay to ask for your e-mail? If you wish, I could send you mine or obtain yours from Chowk (with your permission, of course).

Umer M.

labyrinth1:

Please read through my response entirely and then read through your response entirely,word by word. Just relax and think. Emotion blinds people from reading with an open mind.

Labyrinth, Nowhere did I say that India wants to dominate everybody else. That is not the idea at all. But the problem is the INDIAN CONFIDENCE is taken to be arrogance by the Pakistanis. Whatever you call it, the reality is the subcontinent is populated by people of Indian descent. And for all of them, India is the mother to look for, even though they maybe be truants and wanting to play alone coz they think now they are big.

labyrinth,again, let me make sure,no Indian want to dominate anybody but the reality is Indian size is just too big and intimidating for the rest. So get over the complex and play the game WITH India instead of AGAINST. Bangladesh is the result of Pakistani discrimination, has nothing to do with India. The faster pakistan get out of the self-denial mode the better for them.

Labyrinth, Just saying Indians got everything during partition for 60 years is not going to help either. You guys had 60 years to build your country into a viable democratic, progressive and free country. AND YOU SCREWED IT UP. Nobody to blame but yourself. Analyze the reasons. Why should you try everything to fight with India. Instead patch up and start working together. That will stop the PAK dependence on US/China and being used by US/China all the time. And guess what, in the end, nobody supports PAK anyways. Not China. Not US. Not Saudi. Nobody has ever come to the help of PAK in its war with India. All of PAK`S best friends never helped PAK when it needed them most. And not one supports PAK in Kashmir. All of them are simply using Pak to sell their goods for exorbitant price coz PAK has no other choice.

There is no way the PAK image will improve if it keeps fighting with India. It doesn`t affect India much coz India being big and growing at 6% avg for close to 20 years now with a huge middle class and top 5 military, nobody want to be in the bad book of India. Besides its all driven by money. As long as PAK keeps fighting with India it cant get out of the rot.

And you are missing the big picture. Humans are driven by self-preservation. That is the driving need. Not anything else including religion. So do not make statements like we will die BS. Thats not reality. That is just il-logical bravado. Nobody wants to die. Everybody wants to grow. That is human instinct. As I said the current path is Unsustainable and slowly reality will sink in. The world functions based on survival of fittest and Natural selection. So anything that is unnatural will eventually correct itself.

Whatever Indians like Singularity and niiki aka arjun thinks about Pakistan is pure fiction - so people like them should be ignored - Singularity and Nikki - let me be very clear we ( Pakistanis ) are realy to fight till we die for our honour ( whatever is left of it to be honest ) but we sure are ; Pakistanis do accept India as a big brother in the region but thinking of Indian Dominance over us is foolishness . We Pakistanis would never ever accept Indian dominance over us and Indians know it - tit for tat that would be our response . As far as Bangladesh is concerned Indians actually made another Pakistan in 71 ( another enemy ) on there Eastern Border ( look at the situation at the borders ) . Srilankans wil always keep away from India for obvious reasons . As far as Pakistan ( s ) economy is concerned we never got the real chance from the day we started working in Pakistan - Indians got everything they needed when they started while we never had anything yes we made economical and political mistakes but we are on the right track now .
We Pakistanis will accept a Responsible India rather then same old Hindu Mentality Type India who wants to dominate Nepal , Pakistan Bangladesh Srilanka Bhutan etc.. etc.. and India whatever she does could control small nations like Srilanka or Nepal but not us Pakistanis we will fight with them until we die .
Pakistan ( s ) image will only improve if we as Pakistanis act positive and think positive about her ( Pakistan ) ; We are improving and improving fast think of our people five years ago and see the standard of life now rural and urban cities - things are changing for good - we don`t thank Allah for what we got and always complain dont be selfish and be thankful of what we have .

Pakistan and the Arab countries are brought to the world table kicking and screaming. They are taught by uncle SAM on how to behave and be good citizens of the world. The dependence on OIL is bound to come down with the advent of hybrid cars and Oil alternative technology. It is really not that far away. In the worst case we can always use ethanol.

Pakistan and Bangladesh really have no choice but to align with India if they need to survive and progress. Pakistan is under tremendous pressure on all fronts and eventually will the light. They simply cant afford to carry on the cold war with India. Indian Economy is all set for a long term big boom. And as the economy improves the rest of the political issues will die down. Islamic Terrorism is on its last legs and will be quelled in the next 10 years. Sri lanka has already seen the tidings and aligned its fate with India. Bangladesh will be next. Pakistan will probably continue its untenable line a bit more until the time they are on the verge of collapse. Maybe 10 years. But they really have no choice.

You cant improve the image with the PAK govt giving refuge to somebody like Dawood Ibrahaim. The world is not blind. Pak cant cheat everybody all the time.

Let the events take its due course. But the dice is already cast.

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The following products/ideas and people from India may transcend history - Gandhi, Buddha, Yoga, spicy Indian food, Hinduism

Insaan andar say badal jaaye tau image khud ba khud badal jaata hai.

Khuda ki kirpa aur Ram Rahim ki rehmat say hee Pakistan theek ho sakta hay.

Yeh na samaj aur nadani hai kay role model Pakistan kay haivaanon ka saamna kar saktay hain.

Yahya:

welcome to chowk

you wrote:We need to create ‘role models’ in all fields and at every level for others in our nation to emulate.

..don’t want to dampen your spirits but can you explain who is this we and how do we go about creating these role models? and once we have them what do we do with them?

…for other pakistani interactors here a question: please name a few acceptable pakistani role models:

....here is my initial list:

abdul sattar eidhi
imran khan
mukhtaran bibi
akhtar hameed khan
ansar burney
asma jahangir


rgds,

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