Point of View, 1971 Through Now

Dear Veeresh

Was browsing chowk and really liked your article - touching to know there is someone who cares about people `lost`, families waiting, children growing up in an empty wait for fathers/ others who have strayed and not returned.

Cheers to your spirit!

Regards,
Anita Lobo

A ``Thank you`` to those who helped. You know who you are and I respect your confidence as well as trust.

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http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=63952

Pak govt report says over 180 Indians in its jails



RAUF KLASRA


Posted online: Thursday, February 03, 2005 at 0208 hours IST



ISLAMABAD, FEBRUARY 2: As many as 182 Indian prisoners, including five
women, have been languishing in Pakistani jails on `unknown charges` since
1971, with many suffering from loss of memory, an official report disclosed.
Interior Minister Aftab Ahmed Khan Sherpao will present the classified
report in the Senate on Wednesday. This is for the first time a Pakistani
government has officially recorded data of Indian prisoners, many of whom
entered mistakenly into its territory. A copy obtained by The News reveals
that out of 182 prisoners, 30 are Muslims and a few are Christians. Rest are
either Hindus or Sikhs.


The report is silent about whether the prisoners were ever produced before
any Pakistani courts and formally charge sheeted or not. An official said
the report suggests the detainees were never produced before any court. It
also fails to explain what charges were framed against the prisoners and the
arrangements were made with India to help their release. Similarly, the
report does not give details whether the government had any plan to release
them if it had no sound cases against them as a gesture of goodwill with
India. The report has also not given the names of jails where they have been
kept.
However, the report says the government had given Indian consular access to
50 Indian prisoners. The report is also silent about their place of birth,
which could have helped their relatives to identify them. A number of the
unfortunate prisoners, according to the sources in the ministry, have lost
their memory and are suffering from depression and psychiatric problems.
India had handed over a list of its 54 citizens believed to be in Pakistani
jails. The exchange of list was also made part of 98 confidence building
measures that India exchanged with Pakistan. The Pakistan government had tri
ed to find out information about those 54 Indians but could not do it.
The names and particulars of prisoners as recorded by the Pakistan Interior
Ministry
Mohammad Sadiq alias Wela s/o Wali Mohammad, Ibrahim Ghulam s/o Ghulam
Hussain, Mohammad Usman s/o Mohammad Amin, Waljis s/o Rai Mal, Mohammad Amin
s/o Haji Mohammad, Mohammad Javed Hussain s/o Mohammad Gulzar Hussain, Gopal
Bhagat s/o Heman Bagat, Mehan Khan so Adat Khan, Maya daughter of Wall
Singh, Qasim s/o Mohamamd, Liaqat Khan so Qurdat Khan, Manoranjan alias
Mohammad Imran so Widya Sagar, Hira Lal s/o Dalir Singh, Munawar Lal s/o of
Das Ram, Hadeep Singh so Charan Singh, Talal Raj s/o Punjab Raj, Ameerjeet
Singh s/o Mohinder Pall, Kernail Singh s/o Kartar Singh, Narmal Singh s/o
Sonara Singh, Sohan Singh so Sinjgara Singh, Rajeev Singh S/O Jashveender
Singh, Satesh Kumar s/o Shery Mohar Lal, Rakesh Kumar s/o Jeet Ram, Sirbjeet
Singh s/o Dilbagh Singh, Pershutum Lal s/o Charan Das, Jaspal Singh s/o
Sardar Chaman Singh, Sohan Singh s/o Ameerjeet Singh, Jaspal Singh s/o Suran
Singh, Jernel Singh so Suran Singh, Charhanjeet Singh so Balvaher Singh,
Mehender Singh s/o Darshan Singh, Perdeep Kumar so Harbans Lal, Gagan Deep
Singh so Dersaj, Haresh Kumar s/o Mangoram, Baljeet Singh so Taram Singh,
arseel Lal s/o Boota Lal, Karnel Singh s/o Purdeep Singh, Jamspal Singh s/o
Sevram Singh, Otar Singh s/o of Mangha Singh, Shahra Singh s/o Sone Singh,
Davinder Singh so Lakhvinder Singh, Daveinder Singh s/o Lakhvinder Singh,
Ilyas s/o Badiu, Ram Kumar s/o of Amir Kumar, Shahidul Islam s/o Abdul Al
Hassan, Wonyou so Abdul Rehman, Umer Farooq s/o Karim Din, Ashok Kumar s/o
of Soran Das, Boota Ram so Dharam Chand, Gopal Das s/o Baharia Lal,
Gurbukush Ram s/o of Amer Nath, Kuldeep Kumar s/o Nanak Chand, Kaldeep Singh
s/o Chanda Singh, Mana Masih so Pala Masih, Manga Ram s/o Kaqtar Ram, Pervez
Ahmed Masood s/o Mohamamd Yousaf Masoodi, Ram Parkash s/o of Dewan Chand;
Shahbuddin Mir s/o Sirajuddin Mir, Surjeet Singh s/o Sucha Singh, Karpal
Singh s/o Dwas Singh, Kashmir Singh s/o Sansar Singh, Manjeet Singh s/o
Solkehea Singh, Abdul Nasir so Abdul Razaak, Ataf Hussain s/o Ghulam
Hussain, Ameerjeet Singh Solekehea Singh, Amjad Khan so Bazaid Khan, Babu
Ram s/o Kaiser Chand, Behram s/o unknown, Bharat Boshan s/o Sat Poul, Chnna
Singh s/o of Ujagar Singh, Chanranjeet Singh Ins Raj Singh, Charan Singh s/o
Hamen Singh, Chitran Das s/o Saman Dad, Dave Das s/o Pooran Das, Daveinder
Singh s/o Auter Singh, Dubinder Singh s/o Naitar Singh, Ganga Ram so Ram
Chander, Golu s/o Mehru, Gourpreet Singh s/o Manjeet Singh, Gula Ram so
Beeka Ram, Gurumail Singh s/o Sawaran, Hakim Singh so Janab Singh, Hardeep
Singh so Rolda Singh, Haribhoran Singh s/o Guru Pangi Singh, Harbans Lal s/o
Kohlu Ram, Jagtar Singh s/o Ghore Bachan, Jasvant Singh s/o Narovander
Singh, Jatinder Kunar s/o Sohan Lal, Journeil Singh s/o Banta Singh, Kala
Singh so Sunder singh, Kala Singh s/o Sundar Singh, Kuldeep Singh s/o Sadhu
Singh, Kalveer Singh s/o Chanan Singh, Kalvinder Singh so Hervent Singh,
Kamal Jeet Singh Jgir Singh, Karamat Rahi Masih s/o Saith Shama Masih,
Khurshid Ahmed s/o Abdul Ahad, Lukvinder Singh s/o Balbir Singh, Lukhvinder
Singh so Kartar Singh, Lal Chand s/o Tarsem Lal, Mahel Singh so Pur Singh;
Majender Singh s/o Lal Singh, Makhen Singh s/o Chanan Singh, Malkeet Singh
s/o Fata Singh, Manjeet Singh s/o Kabal Singh, Mir Mohammad so Haji Matloob,
Mohan Lal s/o Mangi Lal, Mst Fatima Bibi wife of Ramzan Khan, Mst Matii
daughter of Sita Ram, Ms Teena Peka Wife of Rajesh, Mohammad Ali s/o Sarmoj
Ali, Mohammad Irshad so Mohammad Akbar, Mohamamd Ashraf s/o Abdul Rashid,
Mohammad Hassan so Mohammad Riaz, Mohammad Kamal s/o Mohammad Fazal,
Mohammad Muslim Din s/o Abdul Aziz, Mohammad Riasat s/o Abdul Aziz, Naseem
Paul s/o Bhopal, Navinder Pal s/o Stapal, Nazarul Islam s/o Phool Mian,
Nishan Sinh s/o Piyara Singh, Parkash so Gana, Peeru Dival s/o Badu Lal,
Pervaiz s/o Abdul Jabar, Pretum Singh s/o Bakhshu Lal, Radhey Sham s/o Bansi
Lal, Rahat s/o Abdul Hai, Ram Das s/o Frash Chand Das, Ram Paul, s/o Ram
Dari, Ramu Ram s/o Shame Ram, Rashi Paul so ShahiPaul, Sheikh Mohammad s/o
Amir Mohammad, Sheikh Mansoor Ali so Sh Anwar Ali, Surjeet Singh s/o Rolda;
Singh, Sukhveer Singh s/o Nadra Singh, Sukhvender Singh s/o Gurmukh Singh,
Suraj Paul s/o Jeet Ram, SURESH Kumar s/o Valati Ram, Surender Paul s/o
Rathis Ram, Swaran Lal Khotra s/o Shive Ram, Tajinder Kumar s/o Ram Singh,
one prisoner does not know his name even, Veegana so Ram Bhai, Vijay Kumar
so Krishan Chand, Warnu SO Shosha, Balvinder s/o Bachari Singh, Bashir
Ahmed, so Azmatulah, BJ Singh s/o Parkash, David Masih, s/o Pitras Mashi,
Kaka Ram s/o Baloch Ram, Manga Sheikh s/o Mohammad Sharif, Mst Naeema
Shabnam daughter of Abdul Mian, Mohammad Afzal so Nazar Mohammad, Mohammad
Ashraf s/o Mir Ullah, Abdul Aziz s/o Muhammad Din, Mohammad Irshad s/o Lal
Hussain, Mohammad Shafi s/o Piswal, Naseeb Chand s/o Sunder Das, Nazir Ahmad
s/o Abdul Rashid, Omparkash s/o Dittu Ram, Parkash Chand s/o Dhana Ram,
Parkash s/o Gula Budho Ram, Rehmat Din s/o Illam Din, Shambu Nath s/o Kunjan
Chand, Suni Masih s/o Fazal Masih, Syed Rafique s/o Syed Bashir Ahmed,
Mohamamd Razzak s/o Naik Mohammad, Liaqat Ali s/o Sain Mohammad, Mukhtar
Ahmed s/o Allam Din and Abdul Rahid s/o Tana.

yes, we mostly are!!!but you win!

nb
Now you are pulling my leg:(. Waisay, I suspect if we go into what languages you know, it will turn out that you are higher up in the RAW hierarchy than me.

But seriously, except for Hindi-belt chauvinists, educated Indians are generally multi-lingual, no?

I know it all started with RAW. But it shows your intelligence, that people can`t understand how you could be so smart on your own!

nb#318
The Urdu script is very much an Indian script! Simple Urdu is just Hindi in another script, and Hindi is my mother tongue. I am better at learning scripts than languages. I can read simple(printed) Malayalam, for a while I could read simple (printed) Kannada too, though I have forgotten most of that. It is just that I find it difficult to see a script written all over the place on signboards and pamphlets and not try to read it.

nb #318
btw, the RAW designation is the great granddaddy of the ``CREIP``? fatwa. First it was `RAW`, then it was `b_igot`, then it was `hatemongerer`, lately it has become CREIP. `RSS fanatic` has been the loyal Mrs. fatwa helpmate all along. tahmed32 came in after RAW and took over with `b_igot`.

Sadna, I`m completely flabbergasted!Wow! No wonder the RAW jokes....how many scripts can you read?
Tahmed, if you don`t want to accept that it was a Pakistani who called Ana`s community these names, it is up to you, but the truth remains. As the receipient of some of your friend`s abuses, being called those names doesn`t really upset me, patients have done worse when they`re not well.

I personally don`t mind people posting Urdu articles, I simply try to read them now and then for fun, st like doing crosswords.

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tahmed:

i am not going to participate on unplugged. i understand ke ab vahan par ab aap ka bhi Dera hai, but if you should not return here. . this will be my penultimate post here as well. and my last post to you in regards to anything here on chowk.

i don`t really appreciate your allegations of my bending over backwards to find fault with pakistanis and be fair to indians. in the three years that i have been here, i have ``found fault`` as you put it with both indians (the extremist and the moderate ones) and the pakistanis (ditto). now if you are hellbent on believing that i find fault just with the pakistanis alone, then with all due respect, you are wrong. . . and possibly deluded.

i went back more than once and read what mannyd said. . . and what he said about chooRas was asked in the form of a question. . . and when he was challenged as to what he said, he said that he had read that in unplugged. i have already said that i did not appreciate what he said in regards to that which is why i had asked him to stop referring to me. and dost-mittar challenged mannyd, and perhaps some others did too. that was my ``objective`` reading of it, and yes, i am capable of being objective here.

as to your claim to have never seen pakistanis refer to their fellow christians in nothing but the most respectful manner. . . i beg to differ with you.

tahmed, there have been at least two people that have referred to me and my family members as chooRas and bathroom cleaners. one was the interactor hamid 81 and one was your good buddy salim. yes, the very same person who you defend more than admonish. and what mannyd was referring to was what salim had written on unplugged. now you are welcome to call me a liar as well as accuse me of favoring indians over pakistanis just as your good buddies do. it really matters little to me. it has been perfectly acceptable for your pakistani buddies to call indian women ho`s and calcutta c - - - s, and it seems quite acceptable for you now to generalize once again about indians. as for giving yasser as an example, i already know the high regard in which yasser views some of his fellow countrymen and women and this isn`t about yasser.

i needn`t discuss this on unplugged, or defend myself against constant accusations by those who claim that i defend indians more than pakistanis. i think most everyone`s behavior at this particular board has left little to be desired.

i can try to remain fair. but i would suggest that you try to open your eyes a little more and persevere in being honest with yourself before accusing me of bakwaas.

all the best.

sadna:

had a few minutes to spare, so thought i`d transliterate the article you spent so much time reading so you`d have an even better understanding of what the writer was on about. i left the words i couldn`t read clearly at all blank and the question marks are for words i wasn`t certain about. i can read urdu fairly well in terms of literature, but have never been good at deciphering what journalists or so-called journalists and opinion writers put forth. hopefully those errors don`t take too much away from the context of the article.

and the reason i decided to do this. some of us have been going on about politeness. . . i think it`s been rather rude of some posters to post articles about bharat on a board supposedly moderated by an indian in a language most indians cannot read.

and no need to respond to me here. i will not be returning to this board:

koi bataye ke bharat amreeka nahiN

ghair siyaasi bataiN. . . abdul qadir hassan

iss maiN shak nahiN ke 9-11 ke moq`a par sad`r parvez musharraf ka faisla durust tha aur hamare pas isske siwa koi charah nahiN tha ke hum amreeka ki baat maan laiN aur usse apni jaan bichalaiN. amreeka is moq`a shadid zehni hijaan (?) maiN tha, aur uske huk`mraan duniya par ye yik taraf taas`r dene maiN kaamiyaab dekhhayee dete thay ke b`aaz musalmaanoN ne in par hamlah kar ke unki beizzati ki ha aur unhe bohat zyaada nuqsaan poh`nchaaya hai, chunaaNche issi hijaani kaifiyat maiN amreeka pehle afghanistan aur phir iraq par chaRh doRa. pakistan inn donoN mulkoN ke beech main waq`ah tha aur pakistan ko dehisht gardon ka markaz aur tarbiyatgah kaha ja raha tha. sad`r parvez musharraf ke iss fori faislay se pakistan baal baal bach giya varna kaun keh sakta hai ke hamara kya haal hota aur humeiN kin tabahkun (?) haalaat se dau chaar hona paRta. amreeka ne dhamki di thi ke woh pakistan ko patthar ke daur maiN waapis dhekhhail dega, jis tarah afghanistan aur iraq ko dhekhhaila ja raha hai. jaisay changeziyoN aur taimuroN ke hamloN ke b`aad baghdad phir baghdad na ban saka issi tarah ab bhi baghdad ko

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(the print is too bareek and unclear but it looks like behaal) honay ka imkaan bohat kam baqi rah giya hai. m`aloom nahiN baghdad ke ye zakh`m

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ho bhi sakaiN ge ya nahiN. amreeka ki bepanah taaqat ke muqaab`lay maiN pakistan ki bhi koi bisaath nahin thi, issliye sad`r parvez ke iss jaan bachanay ke faislay ko durust tasleem kiya giya hai. aik fauji hakumat maiN koi doosra faisla ho hi nahin sakta tha. koi jamhoori hakumat tau koi doosra raasta nikal sakti hai assembly ki manzoori vaghaira ka bahaana kar sakti hai magar humare haaN tau badqismati se jamhoori hakumataiN bhi jamhoori soch se mehroom rahi haiN.

iss durust faislay ke bawajood kya zaroor(i) hai ke hum bharat ke muqab`lay maiN bhi vohi soch aur rawwaiya ikhtiyar karaiN jo amreeka ke baray maiN ikhtiyar kiya giya tha. kya hum ne bharat ko bhi baaladust samajh liya hai. kabhi yik tarfah jang bandi kar ke kashmir main

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laganay ka moq`a f`rahim kartay haiN tau kabhi chup reh kar usse apna paani band karne ka moq`a f`rahim kartay haiN. azad kashmir ke vazir-e-azam jinab sikandar hayat ne ink`shaaf kiya hai ke bharat barah baras pehle se bugliyar band ki t`amir shuroo`h kar chuka tha. in barah barsoN maiN humari sabqah hakumataiN kyooN chup raheeN bhang pi kar soyi raheeN. in main char tau siyaasi hakumataiN bhi theeN. ab jab paani sar se guzarnay laga hai tau humari kisi hakumat ko hosh aaya hai laikan bohat takheer(?) ke b`aad isse tau dair ayed durust ayed bhi nahin kaha ja sakta kyooNke bharat baRi r`aoonat (?) ke saath apne moaqaf par qaim hai jo duniya ki kisi bhi `adalat ke saamne ghalat saabit kiya ja sakta hai magar aaj ki `adalataiN bhi taaqat ke taraazu man`ne par majboor haiN. bharat ne mazakaraat ki nakaami ke b`aad ab phir mazeed mazakaraat ki baat shuroo`h kardi hai. laikan kya hum bharat ke sorakh se baar baar Dasse janay par taiyyar haiN.

bharat kashmir maiN baR (baT`r?) aur kashmir maiN hi chenab par band ki t`amir par hi bas nahiN raha balke ussne balochistan maiN bhi madakhilat shuroo`h kardi hai. janoobi vaziristan maiN bhi usska haath saaf dikhhayi deta hai. bharat humara hoshyar aur chokna dushman hai. voh jab bhi pakistan se kahiN haalaat ko kharaab dekhta hai, foran uss taraf lipakta hai aur pakistan ke aman-o-amaan ke dushmanoN ki b`rah raast na sahi balvasta hausla afzayee shuroo`h kar deta hai. aslahe aur

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paani se aur halaat ko bohat zyaada bigaaR deta hai. balochistan maiN baloch khatoon doctor ki beharmati par hum agar foran karavayee karte tau humare kisi dushman ko haalaat se faidah uThaane ka moq`a na milta. ab paanch che dinoN se jang ki kaifiyat jari hai donoN taraf se jaanaiN zaay`ah ho rahi haiN aur uss pahaRi ilaaqay maiN jo ghair abaad ilaaqa hai chapamaar qis`m ke sar(shar?) pasandoN ka muqabla bohat mushkal ho sakta hai. sad`r sahib ke sakht `azaim apni jagha durust laikan aik fauji jarnail hum se zyaada jaanta hai ke ye kaam kisi baqa`idah fauj ke liye kitna mushkal ho sakta hai. abhi hum shomali ilaaqoN ki shor`sh se faarigh nahiN huay ke aik naya m`haaz khhul giya hai aur pakistaniyoN ko shak nahiN ke bharat iss maiN mullawass (?) hai. humaiN bharat ko amreeka nahiN samajhna chahiye. bharat humara khhula dushman hai aur usski qudrati taur par khwahish hai ke humaiN andar se itna kamzor karde ke hum apne atom bomb ko dekhtay hi reh jayeN aur bharat iss khufiya jang se hi apna kaam nikalta rahe jo voh kisi khhuli jang maiN nahiN nikaal sakta ke phir tabahi donoN taraf ki barabar hogi fil ghor (?) zaroorat iss baat ki hai ke hum mulk ke andar wasee`h tar mufaahimat (?) ka silsila shurooh karaiN. qaumi mufaadaat par agar hum khud mut`fiq (?) aur muttahid ho gaye tau kisi dushman ki raisha doani humara kuch nahiN bigaR sakegi. lachak choRh kar humaiN bharat ke saamne DaT jaana chahiye varna iske b`az daanishvar tau ab ye tak kehne lagay haiN ke pakistan ki sar zamin in ka `atiya hai pakistan tau kahin nahiN tha inhoN ne apni zamin de kar pakistan banaya hai aur ab inhaiN iss maiN se kuch zamin wapis darkar hai. bharat ke soraakh se hum kab tak apne aap ko Duswatay rahaiNge isse band karna paRega. bharat amreeka nahiN hai.

Ijaz_gul/303 - I am absoulte re-confirmed on facts pertaining to 10/7 Baluch, both from personal accounts as well as archives of 3 countries. They were very much in Karachi on ceremonial duties in mid-August`47, having been moved from Kanpur specifically for this in April`47. The first flag is very much with the Baluch Regiment even today.

I never said this regiment (renumbered) was in East Pakistan, though your VCOAS Lt. Gen. Imtiaz Waraich (late), also a Baluchi, did have some elements of this regiment with him in Chittagong, who were subsequently interned for two years after 1971 in Agra.

What unplugged on 24-Punjab?

MaheshG2 #309
I can attempt to read, dunno if I will ever be able to `read` :(. Mostly I attempt only the nice big widely-spaced headlines.

arjun_m #310
Someone there has an interesting job.

ana: I think you are determined to find fault with Pakistanis, and to bend over backwards to let Indians off the hook, no matter what!!

That is: it was an Indian, mannyd, who referred to christians in this despicable way. Not a Pakistani. And you fault Pakistanis (myself being one of them) for taking him to task on this by asking how come we Pakistanis dont !! Why dont you ask why none of these Indians (who are experts at abusing and namecalling Pakistanis) bothered to challenge mannyd at the despicable manner in which he referred to your fellow christians??

Also, in all these years I have been on chowk I have never seen Pakistanis refer to their fellow christian (or other minority) citizens in anything but the most respectful manner. YLH has on several occassions talked about the sacrifices made by christians for Pakistan. I did that on this very board. I have also seen the arrogant manner in which many Indian posters refer to ``low caste converts`` to not just Islam but Christianity as well.

Please try to remain fair.

I just took a look at this board to see if there was anything interesting going on - I wont be coming back, but if you have a response I will be glad to discuss it on unplugged.

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