Western Feminism and South Asian Women

hamidm #66: ``there are a lot of very courageous women who are trying to do their best under very difficult circumstances ............ some of them have accomplished more than you or i can ever hope to achieve in a lifetime ..........``

Yes and no. There definitely are some who have done far more than you or I, under much more difficult circumstances. But I seriously think there aren`t a, ``lot.`` I mentioned some names. You can add a few more to the list. Zobeida Jalal, who is a philanthrapist, and became the first elected women from Baluchistan (I believe in the history of the province). She ran as an independent and defeated the tribal leaders. She even gave birth to a child a few days before she was elected......And I think her husband lost his election....

How many more are there? Not many. I don`t have the whole demogrpahics, but certainly the demographic of the upper-middle class of Islamabad and San Jose. And most of them do lord over the khansama.

I attended a Pakistani women egineers seminar once. It was organized by five to ten Pakistani female engineers. They worked very hard. When I got their I was suprised by two things: First of all, there were no Pakistani women there. In that large city, there must be tens of thousands of well-off Pakistani women. Perhaps five showed up. Seriously. While I have been to coffee parties, where twenty show up and to Eid parties where hundreds show up.

The second strange point was that there was only one Pakistani female speaker, and she was the one who had arranged the seminar. All the other speakers were Indian females (or Pakistani males).....The reason was simple: there just aren`t any Pakistani females even in middle management positions, even though thousands of them live a well-off existence in the city......

Some things are changing though, in small areas. I have read that women students outnumber males students now in Pakistani medical colleges. And that colleges like KE have 70% females students. But still, this is one tiny area.

Pakistani upper-class affluent female crowd consists of two groups: 5%, who are fighting against tough odds, doing far more than their share in a tough environment. 95%, lording over the khansama.......The true working women in Pakistan belong to the very poor class: sweeperesses, farm workers etc. They start working at the age of 10 and support their families till the day they die. Unfortunately, the upper class females don`t have such energy.........

Romair,

Ehrenreich is ONE North American writer. HAVE you read any of the articles authored BY South Asian scholars and activists who are conducting research into the very issues you, the writer and that wastrel Echoboom keep whinging about? THEY are responding to these very issue. Women OF South Asia.

And once again, you`ve avoided ALL the questions I asked you, except the merest acknowledgement that you DONT know this indigenous scholarship and social action.
Therefore, I request that if a writer wants to make sweeping and false generalizations on the roles of feminismS, they do some research and stop wasting our time with this nonsense.

romair mian,

......... i think you are being overly critical of the upper-middle class women in pakistan - not all of them are flirty socialites or lazy housewives who lord over the khansama .........there are a lot of very courageous women who are trying to do their best under very difficult circumstances ............ some of them have accomplished more than you or i can ever hope to achieve in a lifetime ..........

The Professor , lugging his own PhD`s and a coolie carrying several tomes of ibids and etals, decided to find out himself if the word has reached the millions of oppressed women in a third-world country. To his utter disbelief & dismay he discovered that they are still on the second letter of the english alphabet..``F-for feminism``,which the prof. had specialised in, was nowher on the horizon.

The he heard bells.
He ran, stumbled, and ran towards the sound.There he saw this woman who , a switch-whip in hand, was goading a donkey who went round & round some contraption. It was an oil extracting device. The sound of the bells was from the bell-collar of the donkey.

The Professor with several PhD`s in ``F-for feminism`` stood and watched and watched & watched.

She broke the silence: `` O goray goray baoo what is that you vaatch``

__``I can`t figure out why you have the bell-collar for the donkey``

``Well, sometimes I do other chres as well. If the donkey stops to go round-and-round , then I know and return & urge it on with my swat``.

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``O I see, I see!..[long long pause], but what if the donkey just stays in one place and shakes his head & make the bells ring to fool you``

`` O baoo angraijee! my donkey never went to amreekaa``

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The one point that the article tried to make was that ``western feminism`` is not entirely relevant to south asia. In the interacts I dont see people talking to each other but past each other (putting up lists of references etc.).

What would have been interesting would be to see the specific aspects of WF that are irrelevant, compared to those that are relevant. And even these conclusions would be qualified to the specific segments of south asian societies that one is talking about.

It seems to me that the present condition of middle class women in India has very little to do with feminism per se. Except in certain sub cultures, the wisdom in investing in the future of girls (for education and careers) is widely accepted. I havent seen any argument that this is connected to western feminism at all.

Here is an interesting quote suggesting that Steinem was much influenced by her time in India.

``
Gloria Steinem, considered one of the west`s pioneers in the feminist movement started as a disillusioned westerner in the 1960s, went to India for 2 years, joined a Gandhian women`s movement. She wrote how amazed she was at the sophisticated state of women taking charge of their own rights in India and was also impressed by India`s student movements which she felt were far advanced compared to life on american campuses. These experience are recalled in her book upon turning 60, and she considers them to be her formative ideas that led to her feminism leadership in the west. While Gloria remains an India lover, this aspect of her debt to India is kept hidden in women`s studies, so that they can bash Indian culture and re-engineer young Indian women`s identity into anti-native culture. ``

Saminashah #63: ``have you researched any of the women run employment collectives in Pakistan``

Look....Ehrenreich is an unknown name in Pakistan. Go ask 99.9999% of the women (or men) in Pakistan, and they will not know who she is. So I fail to see any impact she has had in Pakistan, other than on you. Now if you were mentioning Asma Jehangir etc., there would be a debate that could be carried on.

You keep pulling out these names, who are completely unknown within the domain that is being discussed. Ehrenriech maybe the equivalent of Florence Nightingale, but what relevance does she have with Rukhsana, the 15 year old sweepress, who cleans the Begum Sahib`s house in Clifton?

Ehrenriechs aren`t going to solve the problems of women in Pakistan. Trust me. Neither are Gul Khans, Hamidms, Romairs or Arundhati Roys. They will only be solved by the group I have mentioned, i.e. well-off empowered, relatively rich Pakistani women. And there are quite a few of them. There must be a good 400 who are directly or indirectly related to me....

Let me give you some examples of women who are going to have an affect in Pakistan:

Check out the following site http://www.junoonii.00me.com/

There is a 17 year old girl (older now), named Bismah, who wanted to become a fighter pilot in the PAF. PAF allows girls to be doctors and air traffic controllers etc., but not fighter pilots. She single-handedly ran from pillar to post, and got the military to change their rules. And got herself selected for fighter pilot training. She took on the whole military and convinced them to change their rules. I exchanged some emails with her. Having seen it first hand, military flying training is extremely male-oriented, filled with vulgarities etc. She went through the selection process, and opened the doors for other females. I don`t know how far she has gotten in the training (it is extremely selective and demanding), but hopefully, she will become the first female fighter pilot in Pakistan, South Asia and probably in the history of all Muslim women........Even if she doesn`t, she will have done quite a bit.....

This is what women in Pakistan have to do, by the thousands. Those who can do it, i.e. the well-off ones....

There is a famous person in Pakistan named Musharraf. No not the President. But Musharraf Hai. She is in her 40s(?) and is the head of one of the largest multinationals in Pakistan. I don`t know much about her. But she was recently voted one of the 100(or 400??) most powerful female businesswoman in the world by Forbes magazine.

Maleeha Lodhi is another one. Ten years ago, she was voted as one of the 40 people who would influence the world, in the future, by Time Magazine. Three years ago, she was voted one of the 75 most influential people in the world.

Bilquis Edhi, Parveen Shakir are some more.

To change something, one has to get into powerful positions. And then change the status quo from a position of power. Not by relying on others, or quoting others like Enrenhiech. One has to, infact, be independent of others. This is a lesson my mother, who grew up wearing a burqa, taught me. This is also why I gave on a pretty good corporate career and started my own thing. I am the boss. If my company grows I can fill it up with Pakistanis if I want. Or with Indians. Or with cute blondes with big round..........eyes..........if I want.

This is what women in Pakistan have to do, if they want to change the situation of other women. They have to become, ``bosses.`` It doesn`t matter if they are wearing hijaabs or shorts when they become bosses. That is really immaterial. But they have to get into positions of power. And there is only one group amongst them that can do so: the Chowk crowd....(not specifically the ladies on Chowk, but the overall upper-middle and upper class female crowd).

And perhaps it is my limited knowledge, but I really don`t know how Ehrienrich is going to get into a position of power in Pakistan..........

*** Removed for violating InterAct Guidelines ***

Romair,

No, you dont ``SEE``...have you researched any of the women run employment collectives in Pakistan and India?

Do you know any women working in them?

Have you talked to any of them? (And please dont start the ``easiest job in the world`` ploy you like to use when confronted with your own inconsistancies.)

Have you read ANY of the articles written by these South Asian women scholars and activists?

Have you asked THEM what THEIR perspectives on what kinds of grassroots collectives are helpful, what obstacles they encounter, etc?

Have you asked the women employed in these collectives what THEIR perspectives are as a result of working in these collectives?

Have you asked any of the women involved with work around womens issues in South Asian what linkages they make with women across the border, to China, Indonesia, to Russia, to Africa, to the Latin America, to sweat shop workers on 42nd st?

Have THEY made any linkages with the issues that writers like A. Roy, Ehrenreich, etc. raise on a regular basis? Do you know this by researching this field?

Saminashah #43/hamidm: ``I am pretty sure that the women working in Pakistani collectives read gendered economic disparity the same way as Ehrenreich does. Oh dear....another blow against the one dimensional argument claimed in this piece... ``

I can`t even understand what this means. I doubt most women working in, ``Pakistani collectives`` would be able to understand it either........Why do you keep using complicated wordings to describe local problems?......

My guess is women in Pakistan - the ones who have problems and not the ones who are relatively wealthy, yet keep saying they have the same problems - could care less about Ehrenreich or anyone else. So let`s leave her out of the discussion. Maybe she can solve the problems of Germany or wherever she is from......

It is a basic rule of life that only individuals from the same community (and gender) tend to solve the problems of their community. No one else does it for them. The problems of Pakistani women will only be solved by other Pakistani women. Not be Ehrenreichs. And the only Pakistani women who are in place to solve them are the ones who are wealthy, empowered, rich, and well-educated.

And as I keep saying, very few of these Pakistani women have taken any initiative to take leadership positions in the society to solve any of these problems. Perhaps they are too busy reading The Friday Times, trying to find out what Chinku did with Tinku and Pinky`s Halloween party in Lahore. The Blacks were, after all, led by another highly educated Black man, named Martin Luther. And Pakistan was formed by a rich upper-class Muslim named Jinnah. I don`t know if Steinam was rich, but she was a woman.

When I came to the USA, there were very few Pakistanis in the US IT industry, Hardly any, who were older than 35. Hence almost none in even middle management. My age group (in their 20s at that time) was the first big wave of Pakistanis that came in. Unlike the Indians, who had been her for decades, we had no role models or contacts. Now we are all in relatively senior positions and/or have our own companies. It is thus a lot easier for younger Pakistanis to make a place for themselves, since we have a track record. But we had to do it ourselves. As Pakistanis....We didn`t wait for others to do it, for us....

When a couple of us friends started our own little companies, we made it a point that we would not have any nepotism, except in one case: Pakistani female software engineers. Since then, I hire any Pakistani female engineer who applies, who has a degree in the area. Good or bad. Guess how many I have hired so far. Two. There aren`t any out there. They are even a more scarce commodity than Indian Muslim IT engineers....

There are tens of thousands of Pakistani male engineers in North America. Most are married to Pakistani girls from similar backgrounds. These girls/women are, now, well-off with the basic education to do something. Yet hardly any of them makes any effort to make a position for themselves in the society. I have personally had discussions with them on this topic. There answers are quite similar: ``Bachay hain, ghar ka kaam hai, etc.``

Someone should ask them whether Pakistani women are the only ones who have kids. Don`t Indian women have kids? Don`t they have, ``ghar ka kaam?`` Speaking of which, the attitude of the Indian girls is exactly the opposite. They are more aggressive and ambitious (at least in my industry) than even the gora ladies. I have run across so many very young Indian job candidates who are from middle class backgrounds, with barely a minimum qualification in some field from India. They don`t have a third of the wardrobe that the Pakistani girls here have. Yet, somehow or the other, these Indian girls get a Java cerfitication here, a half a degree there, and with their broken English, and poor color coordination in clothes, end up with a job.

Such large groups of women are what is going to make a difference for other women. Not Ehrenriech and theoretical discussions on this and that. The well-off Indian women have apparently set enough of an example for the middle class to have role models. And now they are everywhere (at least in my field). This is despite the fact that Hindu socieities, traditionally, have been far far more patriarchal than Muslims societies. Islam, at its core, is far less patriarchal than perhaps any religion in the world. Maulvis can only push the society so far, until they run into a strict brick wall in Islam, which even their interpretations cannot change, e.g. the right of every Muslim girl to inheritance and education.....

So, if women in Pakistan are ever going to have any rights, they will have to be fought for, tooth and nail, by the well-off Pakistani women. No one else is going to fight for it. For every male Musharraf, who gives women 1/3rd seats, there will another male trying to take them back.

Unfortunately, too many of these well-off Pakistani women are too busy ordering around their child labor sweeperesses and sitting on their fat asses, getting even fatter. Some of the remaining have equated, ``liberation`` with dancing around trees and yelling back to their motehr-in-laws and wearing capri pants and spaghetti strap dresses. None of this is practically going to do much for Pakistani women.

Rights will be gained if one wave of well-off women, gets into positions of power in a male-dominated society. It is always much tougher for first-generations to make a place. But they have to make an extra effort. As an example, Pakistanis have far more credibility now in the North American IT industry, than, say, ten to fifteen years ago. Because one group has made a position for themselves.........

I`ve been reading and re-reading this article, and simply don`t understand why it had to be written at all. Not only does it say nothing new (and makes silly spelling mistakes to boot) - merely repeating what men with the old traditional patriarchal mindset used to say 25 years back whether in South Asia or in the West - it isn`t even well written.
Everyone knows about the term being feminismS - I can see from the posts here that people find it difficult to accept the validity and the coexistence of of multiple viewpoints. Also, in the end feminism/s is/are without borders.
Nor does it make sense to me why post #16 cuts and pastes a write-up from The Australian about a few odd white Australians converting to Islam, or how something about feminism becomes just another excuse for India-Pakistan/Hindu-Muslim bashing.

I`ve been reading and re-reading this article, and simply don`t understand why it had to be written at all. Not only does it say nothing new (and makes silly spelling mistakes to boot) - merely repeating what men with the old traditional patriarchal mindset used to say 25 years back whether in South Asia or in the West - it isn`t even well written.
Everyone knows about the term being feminismS - I can see from the posts here that people find it difficult to accept the validity and the coexistence of of multiple viewpoints. Also, in the end feminism/s is/are without borders.
Nor does it make sense to me why post #16 cuts and pastes a write-up from The Australian about a few odd white Australians converting to Islam, or how something about feminism becomes just another excuse for India-Pakistan/Hindu-Muslim bashing.

fv,

......... i have never, repeat, never, seen an indian fillum.....(okay, i did see part of pakeeza when they shut down lahore because of it )......... ..allah ki kasam.......... but you can`t escape the song and dance numbers because most paki households turn off zeetv only for the azan, and that too they simply turn down the volume .......... so, i must admit, my comment was based on very limited exposure ........

............ but one thing i will say: you indian women have it a lot better than your paki sisters where both man`s and god`s law are against them ........ at least in india, the laws on the books say the right thing - the incorrigible men will catch on sooner or later ........ in pakistan, the situation is hopeless and keeps on going from bad to worse as people keep on going backwards ..........

......... as for gloria - she is a fine looking woman who let herself go and i have a serious problem with that hair because she cleans up real nice! ........ you don`t have to look like godzilla to prove your feminist credentials ......... i do think that ``radicals`` of all shades sometimes feel compelled to look idiotic like gandhi ji or bella abzug........... i am sure there are some fine looking feminists out there .......... no offense intended, so please don`t beat me up - i am, really, on your side !

And this is how practising, proud, fundamentalist mullah-like Muslim women go about bringing about change.

The days of the Westernisation & colonising ``advancement`` are coming to a close. What the Ba Ba Blacksheep types are NOT ready for is the Tsunami from the East which will soon devour European & U.S ``thought``. It is closer than one realises. Just learn to read all the indices.

AbdoolAmreeka`s fears and apprehensions are well founded; but he is yet not reverting!

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Dec. 18, 2004, 8:21PM
Islamic feminist draws ire of men, women, left, right
Turkish scholar leads drive to free Muslims from male hegemony
By AMBERIN ZAMAN
Los Angeles Times

ANKARA, TURKEY -

She has been derided by non-observant women in this officially secular, but predominantly Muslim, country for covering her hair with a scarf.

Drawing fire from men and women, Hidayet Sefkatli Tuksal is at the forefront of Turkey`s unique brand of Islamic feminism.

Disillusionment over male professors and colleagues` misogyny prompted Tuksal, a fiercely devout Muslim scholar, to investigate what Islam really says about women.

Her findings, she said, reveal that, contrary to what ``so many men would have us believe,`` the Islamic faith does not assign women second-class status.

Tuksal, 41, is among an increasingly vocal group of Islamic feminists who are seeking to liberate their faith from male hegemony.

Yet Tuksal and her friends are also fighting for the right to cover their heads in keeping with the Islamic faith.

To Muslim women elsewhere who are struggling to overcome curbs imposed in the name of Islam, these may seem like contradictory goals. But in Turkey they interlock, Tuksal said. ``They are separate fronts in the same war — the war for gender equality,`` she said.

Islamic feminism in Turkey coincided with the rise of political Islam in the late 1980s.

The Welfare Party, an overtly Islamic group that came to power in 1996, drew heavily on its female members to mobilize support in conservative urban neighborhoods. For thousands of women long confined to their homes, the experience was the beginning of a political awareness that was to propel them toward a more feminist agenda.

Feminist awakening

Jenny White, a social anthropologist at Boston University, said that awakening triggered the first rumblings of dissatisfaction.

Their grievances were overshadowed by mounting pressure from Turkey`s powerful military, which forced Welfare out of power after a year.

But even as critics attacked the Muslim feminists, a new breed of Islamic leaders — such as Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey`s current prime minister — began to distance themselves from that militant rhetoric.

Clash with secularists

Islamist men were not the only adversaries. ``Secular women have long mocked and distrusted us because we cover our head,`` Tuksal said. The hostility was mutual: The secularists` stance on abortion and sexual freedoms was counter to the beliefs of pious women.

The nation`s drive to become the European Union`s first Muslim majority member has played a big role in these efforts, said Nimet Cubukcu, one of 13 female lawmakers elected on Erdogan`s ticket two years ago.

The government has rammed through a blizzard of reforms in an effort to persuade EU leaders to start negotiations. The changes include harsher penalties for so-called honor crimes, marital rape and virginity tests. The new laws were endorsed by secular and Islamic women activists alike.

halur, stuka
If Indian women employees are paid a fair wage by call centers of US companies, that isn`t entirely due to capitalism, that is because people have fought for employees` rights in the US including for equal pay for women who do equal work.

The difference between the way US capitalists of late 1800s-early1900s treated their employees(which included children) and the way US capitalists of the 2000s do so can in large measure be attributed to the leftists.

If US companies have call centers in India for the sake of their `capitalist` profit margin, then here are many late 1800s-style `capitalists` in India who employ women in farms and factories, but do not pay them decent wages for the sake of THEIR `capitalist` profit margin. Child labor is also favored. It is mainly leftists who try to change this.

(IMO no one ` ideology` has all the answers and people should stop saying 1)capitalism is nirvana and 2) leftists do understand what is a deficit and will balance the budget someday )

#55 by FarzanaVersey on January 1, 2005 0:51am PT
#49 by hamidm2
[......... as for women in pakistan, i think the best thing that has happened to them is indian cinema .......... when they see women who look and talk like them dancing around in the rain dressed in revealing saris, chasing men and talking back to their mothers-in-law, they say to themselves, ``if they can do it, so can we`` .............]

fv,

Best thing happenned to woman in south asia was your inability to write why a woman cannot get a driiving li... IN Saudi Arabia.. Yes Macca and Medi.... And when it was exposed you did what every born .... did

Would you write an article after Islam was declared No woman could ... No woman can and will drive a car in....

You cannot and will not. PBUP has happened. Smile MO!!

And do not give BS like you have objected.. Only thing you object is.. YES hing and hindu.

Write one article why Islam brought wrong to a woman (Hindu woman if you can, she was raped...you will never write muslims too rape Muslim ``WOMAN`` )

Right one article on Draf...(Sudan). S$$$$t it was muslim killing Musil... NO dont

BS


Yogiraj

#49 by hamidm2
[......... as for women in pakistan, i think the best thing that has happened to them is indian cinema .......... when they see women who look and talk like them dancing around in the rain dressed in revealing saris, chasing men and talking back to their mothers-in-law, they say to themselves, ``if they can do it, so can we`` .............]

Statements like these reveal just what some men think about the women in the subcontinent. Look at the terms used: revealing saris, chasing men and talking back to their mothers-in-law. Which essentially means that a group of women in one country spends its time seducing men wearing clinging chiffons (which will work only during the monsoons, according to you), and then having hooked the man, spends the rest of her life quarrelling with another woman. The man, poor guy, is in a fix...now, a group of women in another country are so beguiled by these `progressive` ideas that they want to aspire to them, right?

Do you seriously believe that what is portrayed in mainstream Indian cinema is so real? The fact that many Pakistani women are struggling with Hudood laws, honour killings, and fighting for a place in the work arena seems to have escaped you.

I had objected to another post where it was said that Indian men like their women to be Westernised. In sociology we learned to make a distinction between Westernisation and modernisation, and women in the urban areas believe in the latter. Most of us do not mimic the West in behaviour, attitude and ideology. We take what is pertinent and workable in our situation and discard the rest.

A woman wearing a nine-sari selling fish is as relevant as a power-dressed woman in the corporate sector; a woman who responds to situations emotionally with the awareness that empathy in her case brings more understanding (okay, personal plug!) is as relevant as one who relies on logic to explain things. A person who contributes to her immediate environment at the very least and leads her life with HER version of dignity is to be respected.

There are people, men and women, who do not like labels; it does not mean they do not have beliefs. Likewise, there are some who use labels as a mere crutch...each has a reason for doing so.

PS: And if men think that their hair is better than Gloria Steinem’s, then they are getting there…by counteracting a ‘feminine’ stereotype. Women too like well-groomed men.
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halur:

Capri pants are trousers that reach the calf, worn by women not necessarily as protection while walking on rain-logged streets…