Western Feminism and South Asian Women

Halur

U make an excellent point. Brilliant.

KKANDK:

``It`s great to practise self-determination for yourself. Now how about giving others, such as Kashmiris, the same right - so they can vote out the Indian occupiers and put themselves in charge of their destiny.``

Kashmiris have the right to vote in or out a government same as any other Indian.

1. No nation on this planet gives its provinces the right to secede, none.

2. You can make a cogent arguement only when a Grade 22 officer no longer has the right to be Preisdent of your country only by virtue of the gun. Allow self determination in your country before talking of others.

saminasha,

........ i have to agree with godot and others that the feminist movement in the west is not all that relevant to pakistan where women are still struggling to be accepted as human beings ............... it is like asking the poor bhata (brick-kiln) owner in sheikhupura to adopt epa`s emmission standards ..........we have to remember that it wasn`t long ago that the river caught fire in cleaveland !........... the needs in pakistan, where a woman is still considered to be chattel, are much more basic .................there are women rotting in jails because they dared to confront the men who raped them; there are women who need a place to hide from fathers and brothers who want to kill them because they feel they have been dishonored; women are denied basic education siimply because they are women and most of them cannot venture outside their homes - the first thing you notice when you land in lahore or islamabad is the absence of women .......... where are they ?

............... so as much as i admire gloria steniem, it is people like asma jehangir and hina jilani with their no-nonsense and down to earth approach that are making a difference .........we need a lot more of them and a few real men .............. the highfalutin theories of the west will have to wait ............

Hamidm #49: ``........ as usual you have proven that you are clueless about everything and anything that you choose to speak on ........ ``

I don`t think you understood what I said. What I had said was that I am surprised that women in Pakistan cling to religion, even though they blame it, or its interpretation as one of the biggest problems......

You seem to have an itchy trigger finger, whenever anything related to the USA is mentioned. You need to take it easy...........The USA was built on encouraging criticism, not on discouraging it. Even though, in this case, all I said was that many women in the West have left religion. Which they have....Specifically in Europe....

``nobody dumps their religion, inlcuding christians and animists, but most of them, other than the darned muslims and the hassidic jews and the cannibals in zambia, do not actually take their religion seriously ......... ``

You forgot one group: your Christian Evangelical buddies. If you don`t think they take their religion seriously, then you are living on Mars. They won the election for you friend, Bush. With the only difference that the Christian Evangelicals are the only ones that have the power to destroy us all. They rest of us maulvis are all talk (inclduing the Jewish mauvlis). We don`t have any power......

I am still traumatised by the 11 year old Evangelical girl on CNN, who said if you don`t consider Christ your savior, you are going to hell.........

Hence I have always found it quite odd, when you issue your fatwas against maulvis of different religions, while simultaneously being in bed with Ralph Reed and Jerry Falwell......

Godot,

1. Is your thesis based on any research of the social and scholary work taking place in South Asian diasporic AND South Asian indigenous women`s organizations?

Please cite.

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romair,

........ as usual you have proven that you are clueless about everything and anything that you choose to speak on ........ nobody dumps their religion, inlcuding christians and animists, but most of them, other than the darned muslims and the hassidic jews and the cannibals in zambia, do not actually take their religion seriously ......... most are ``cultural`` christians or jews or animists and the lunatic fringe is happy to wag their finger and ignore them ......... the only people different are the muslims who, instead of simply wagging their shahadat finger at the not-so-muslim muslims, want to poke them in the eye with it before proceeding to slit their throats ..............

......... as for women in pakistan, i think the best thing that has happened to them is indian cinema .......... when they see women who look and talk like them dancing around in the rain dressed in revealing saris, chasing men and talking back to their mothers-in-law, they say to themselves, ``if they can do it, so can we`` .............

This board is a now a ``phokee-Gandairee`` [de-juiced, like de-caffed]. Waiting for Godot.

I agree with the poster who postulated that well meaning and good hearted folks like
Saminasha do more harm to women`s liberation in countries such as India , than
kkkandk [feminists are frustrtated women who just can`t get a man] and Romair [feminists love wearing capri pants and looking ridiculous]. What are capri pants , by the way ?

The suffragettes and figures such as Wolf were made possible by the capitalist / industrial revolution in england. Leftist feminists , for reasons known only to themselves, oppose such a capitalist wrought industrial revelution in india. Women will be free when they can exchange their labor surplus for the wage a capitalist will pay them. A pure economic exchange devoid of the patriarchal, gender oriented overtones found in most of rural india.

The call centres are indeed a good example of this. Here women and men are paid equally. A little more than ten years ago such indian women had to marry in their early twenties beause a BA or BCom did not get you anything in a socialist economy. Has anybody noticed how many single women in their thrties one finds today in indian metros ? In the indian context these are liberated women. They do not expect a man or marriage to provide them food or shelter, but companionship or love or whatever.. To extend this to rural india we need capitalists and factories, multi-nationals. Oh when will the leftists learn.. sigh..

Seems as if the last paragraph of this article escaped some readers, which reads in part:

“it is not only the “feminists” who solely bear the torch of liberation of South Asian women from the shackles of a society deeply entrenched in time and tradition and can claim to be the only ones who can address their suffering. The suffering of South Asian women is also the concern of the phallus-wielding men of South Asia, because the intelligent ones among them know that tying women down retards the development of their own families and hence, on a larger scale, the social and economic development of their nations.”

Enough said.

Farzana

You’re to the point and cogent. No argument there.

However, in writing this article, I wasn’t trying to ridicule or downgrade “feminism,” but point out that Bettys and Glorias live in an environment vastly different than South Asia and, because of that, perhaps a tactic different than theirs is needed to tackle the scourge of inequality. But I also have no doubt that many women in South Asia are probably doing just that.

Zahra

Predictability never disappoints. The self-uttered “I actually like to know what I`m talking about” just about sums it up about her.

kkkandk

You understood what I wrote. Those who lack originality walk with the help of crutches of cut-and-paste, reams and reams of it.

Stuka

Those who do not know what an opinion piece is and do not know anything beyond the myopia of academic research papers will never understand what you meant.

dashes-n-dots

I will take “clever” over “intelligent” any day. Thanks.

Everyone else: Thank you all for reading it and for your comments.

Romair,

How has your wife stopped you from being a homemaker?

Romair,

Nice try.

Actually, Ehrenreich worked as a domestic worker and waitress for a year to experience herself how the working poor make ends meet. The book is called Nickled and Dimed.

I am pretty sure that the women working in Pakistani collectives read gendered economic disparity the same way as Ehrenreich does. Oh dear....another blow against the one dimensional argument claimed in this piece...

Saminashah #41: ``1. You have a choice to be a homemaker or work outside of the home. Whats stopping you from being a homemaker? ``

My wife...

``By all means, supply her Pakistani counterpart.``

Her Pakistani counterpart are the women who work as domestic servants in Pakistan, ayahs, sweepresses, etc. Most of them end up bringing their school-aged daughters with them to work, also. To do the job that the rich women are unwilling to do, themselves.

Have you ever bothered talking with these women? You might learn more form them than from Barbara Ehrenriech.......

``You`ve made the eggregious assumption that Chowk interacting women are not 1. working 2. working for orgs that deal with women`s issues 3. are not socially conscious.``

I have never made these assumptions. I just said women from the Chowk crowd, i.e the part of the society that everyone on Chowk, including you and I, belong to. The upper middle and upper class of Pakistan. This does not mean that the women on Chowk specifically don`t do anything. It is quite possible that they all are doing something. However, it is quite obvious that the general crowd certainly isn`t doing nearly as much as it should..........

Romair,

1. You have a choice to be a homemaker or work outside of the home. Whats stopping you from being a homemaker?

2. Ehrenreich has researched and written extensively on domestic workers within the US. By all means, supply her Pakistani counterpart.

3. You`ve made the eggregious assumption that Chowk interacting women are not 1. working 2. working for orgs that deal with women`s issues 3. are not socially conscious.
It is patently untrue.

Saminashah #39: ``Who cooks when you are not cooking? Who cleans?.....comments are as offensive and patronizing ``

I have my hands full with hamidm, Urstruly, the Pakistani secular brigade and the Indian RSS brigade. Now you have joined in also. I thought I had written in favor of women. I guess I just can`t win.:-)

As for who cooks: I cook dinner half the time, and my wife cooks the other half. But she is not a very good cook, and apparently I am quite good. So I end up cooking more than her. On the weekends, we eat out. Lunch and breakfast, is everyone for themselves....

``Barbara Ehrenreich pointed out...``

More fancy names.......What is it, with you, and fancy names? And why are all your fancy names from the USA and England? What do they know about Pakistan? What about what Allah Rakhi said, or Azhra Begum said, or Neseebo Mai said?

``that domestic housework is the last site of unpaid labor for the homemaker. And paying someone to perform that labor IS avoiding the unpaid labor issue.``

I would switch to being a homemaker in a heartbeat. I have suggested it to my wife a couple of times, that she can work and I will cook and clean. But she doesn`t agree....Having done both, I have found cooking and cleaning to be quite a bit easier than working....

``As for your capri pants comments-I dont know where you are coming from. The scholarship and activism by women around women`s issues should demonstrate to you that ``literate`` women are involved in social action. Your capri and coffee comments are as offensive and patronizing as your``

I have nothing against Pakistani girls in capri pants. I think they look kind of artificial on them, like someone trying to be what they aren`t. And I prefer Shalwar Kameez. But that is just a personal opinion.

These comments maybe offensive, but they are true. Comments can be offensive and true, simultaneously. True, within the context of Pakistani women. Though not within the context of Indian or gora women. And I was only talking about Pakistan.

I have a long list of Pakistani friends who are doing well in the IT industry. As well as any Indian guy. Car(s), house(s), stock options, etc. An overwhelming majority of their Pakistani wives, do nothing. Least bothered about making a place in the society. Or a career, or education, or even volunteering for anything. And with the advent of TV dinners and high-powered vacuum cleaners, cooking and cleaning isn`t as big of a task as it is made out to be..........

In comparison, nearly every Indian wife I know of, is doing something or the other. Even the ones who come from middle class backgrounds in India and have minimum qualifications, end up doing something.

Even in Pakistan, how many women from influential families are doing anything for less fortunate women? Not many. I don`t consider holding the Vagina Monologues for a small crowd of even wealthier women, a breakthrough for women`s rights. Nor do I consider getting a book of poems published anything for other women. Those are just personal goals and pleasures..

In fact, the biggest working class of women in Pakistani cities come from the very poor class, i.e. domestic servants, i.e. ayahs and sweepresses etc. Why are they in business? Obviously because the wealthier women don`t even want to spend time cooking and cleaning, what to talk of helping other women............

There are plenty of women in Pakistan from rich, influential families to make a difference. Unfortunately, very few of them are interested in doing anything. I know of a few who are doing something, and it is obvious that they can and have made a difference. However, there are too few of them.............

Romair,

Who cooks when you are not cooking? Who cleans?

Barbara Ehrenreich pointed out that domestic housework is the last site of unpaid labor for the homemaker. And paying someone to perform that labor IS avoiding the unpaid labor issue.

In my house, both my spouse and I cook AND clean...and there`s no big deal about. Yet there are some Pak American households I know in which the husband doesnt shoulder his share...and has a hard time grasping why he should.

As for your capri pants comments-I dont know where you are coming from. The scholarship and activism by women around women`s issues should demonstrate to you that ``literate`` women are involved in social action. Your capri and coffee comments are as offensive and patronizing as your ``I taught part time uni, easiest job in the world`` comments on your previous board. Btw, you might check that board out, because the duties of teaching adjuncts have increased since your stint...