Western Feminism and South Asian Women

Romair:

[Is it possible for you to communicate with someone without taking potshots at them. You continue to try to humiliate others, and then accuse others of humiliating you. ]

Where is the ``potshot`` in my post? When have I accused you of anything under this article`s umbrella? I have pointed out the obsolete data you have been quoting several times over the course of many years. Is that humiliation? Are you a prophet who cannot be challenged?

Shouldn`t it give you an incentive to go out and get the latest numbers and %s? Where’s the real male ego? You can probably hire a South Asian or a cute blonde to work on this initiative. This will be beneficial to the South Asian Community. Probably, Chowk`s kurta dhartaa may like to sponsor this effort. You never know! Shouldn`t you feel proud of the fact that some of the readers actually read what you write and remember what you quote? Just admit that you did not have the up to date information.

By repeatedly referring to the obsolete information, you made it sound like the gospel truth. By doing so, you were disseminating inaccurate information and misleading the innocent masses/inter-actors. No more discussion on this!

Just for your information:

OPEN - New England conducted a session last year on ``Pakistani Women in Leadership: Profiles in Professional Success, October 04 2003`` I had posted the invite on Chowk a month ahead of time. Please do checkout their website and read the women`s profiles.
www.open-usa.org. It`s not easy to access the information therefore I will post it here.... You owe me a ``Thank You`` note!

[Imran Sayeed, Chairman of NetNumina, Inc. and the President of OPEN-New England kicked off the event along with Professor Sugata Bose, head of the South Asia Initiative at Harvard University. Dr. Bose emphasized the need for promoting joint cooperation amongst South Asian countries to achieve shared needs and objectives. He praised the accomplishments of Pakistani women that he had worked with at Harvard and in his other encounters. Dr. Shahla Haeri, the director of the Women¹s Studies Program and an Assistant Professor of Cultural Anthropology at Boston University, followed Dr. Bose by serving as the master of ceremonies. Ms. Haeri is the author of recently published book, No Shame for the Sun: Lives of Professional Pakistani Women.

The keynote speaker was Ms. Shahla Aly, who is Microsoft¹s General Manager of World Wide Services, Strategy and Planning. Ms. Aly earned her BSC and MBA from Karachi University before moving to Canada in 1977 and working at IBM for eighteen years, holding various senior management positions. In her presentation, Ms. Aly emphasized her cultural and professional transition to the corporate environment and how she balances her values, faith and family with the needs of a highly demanding profession. Her skillful management of the corporate environment and her ability to work at every stage of the process, excelling at each step, fueled her ability to break through the Œglass ceiling.¹ Ms. Aly also spoke of female role models such as Mohtarma Fatima Jinnah and Begum Liaquat Ali Khan; inspirations during her formative years. Her specific advice to those in attendance included achieving the goals of job satisfaction as a self motivating factor, development of communication skills, working 2 to 3 times harder than colleagues, and lighting the way for others; that is, enabling them to reach their own untapped potential. She regretted that she was not always able to balance her ambition and professional needs with family and suggested to the audience not to make compromises, advising them to prioritize and get necessary help from others at home to meet family needs.

Among the speakers following Ms. Aly included Ms. Henna Inam, Vice President of Sales at Gerber Products Company. Ms. Inam received her MBA from Wharton School and her Bachelor¹s in Business from the University of Texas. She left Pakistan at the age of 6 and lived in East Africa, Philippines and Thailand, learning several languages along the way. For a short while she worked in Pakistan and helped start a Proctor & Gamble venture within the country.

Another panelist, Ms. Luban Khalid, is a young entrepreneur and former account manager at Proctor & Gamble. The founder and CEO of Real Cosmetics, Inc. this graduate of the University of California discovered the void in cosmetics for skin tones of Asian and Latino women after dabbling in modeling. This led her to create Real Cosmetics in 1999 and she took on the goliaths of the cosmetics industry, companies that today actively seek out her professional expertise and product line.

After eleven years at Citibank, Ms. Fawzia Naqvi ran into the proverbial glass ceiling and left her position, furthering her already brilliant career by joining the non-profit Women¹s World Bank. Ms. Naqvi obtained her Bachelor¹s degree in International Relations at Mount Holyoke College and her Master¹s from Columbia University. Through her transition away from the patriarchal City Bank environment and into the women-led WWB, Ms. Naqvi has come to the conclusion that a balanced male-female work structure brings out the best in the corporate environment.

The next speaker, Ms. Amra Tareen, is a Partner at Sevin Rosen Funds. She holds a Bachelor¹s in Electrical Engineering and Computer science from the University of South Wales in Sydney Australia along with an MBA from Harvard Business School. She covers the telecommunication and networking industry and has worked at Lucent and Ascent Communications.

The final speaker, Ms. Rosina Samadani, is the first Pakistani-American woman to become an Associate at McKinsey and Company. She holds a Bachelor¹s and Master¹s degree in Mechanical Engineering from MIT and a Ph.D. in Biomedical Engineering from Northwestern University. She is also a recipient of the Chicago Mayoral Award for community service.

All of the conference panelists shared advice based on their own life experiences, cautioning the audience on issues of balance that can arise in the conflict between career and family goals. The speakers argued that it may be wise to establish oneself professionally before proceeding to have children. They were keen to place a special emphasis on the critical, ongoing support of spouse and family as a prerequisite to success. Other key poingx included: learning early-on to delegate and empower employees and subordinates, with their growth in turn fueling overall business expansion; believing in oneself and the importance of resiliency and persistency as enablers of one¹s ideas and dreams; emphasizing that leaders create leaders and that it is every entrepreneur¹s responsibility to coach and guide the professionals around them.

In concluding, the panelists confirmed that patriarchy in the corporate environment can be offset, and shared advice on dealing with issues of gender politics and sexual harassment. They offered the following suggestions for negotiating the contemporary balance: making the corporate politics work for you by seeking mentors and an active support structure; pushing for strategic reorganizations to enable men and women to change their leadership styles and better serve end users; balancing one¹s professional life with one¹s personal life; and using technology to enable constant communication in all facets of one¹s life. Leadership coaching starts at home, and speakers advised parents and other family members to encourage women to succeed, to be their champions as they develop. Lastly, the panelists defined success as achieving the balance between personal ambition and family responsibility.

The meeting was concluded with Barry Hoffman, the Honorary Counsel General
of Pakistan in Boston thanking the speakers and the organizers. ]

Samina,

Thank You :)
I do not find any sweets around.
Everthing appears to be sour and bland :(
Between you and me, I ain`t staying here for very long.
You are 1000 times more patient than me.
Bye Bye...

Zahra,

Welcome to the club!

Warpster,

I`ll address your post tom.

ZahraJ #112: ``I think you are a victim of some self inflicted injury.``

Is it possible for you to communicate with someone without taking potshots at them. You continue to try to humiliate others, and then accuse others of humiliating you.

`` You were not addressed till post#99. Yes, some of the points you`ve raised were well dissected. What`s the big deal ?``

I have absolutely no problem in being addressed. As long as it is done within the context of a debate. Not in the context that you have a tendency to address others. You have addressed me yourself first, and then have suggested you are not interested in a, ``verbal back and forth.`` Kindly make up your mind. If you don`t want a verbal back and forth, then don`t bother the other person, to begin with. However, if you are going to address someone, they will address you back.

Feel free to get into a debate with me, anytime you want. But kindly refrain from your name calling or demeaning comments. I am hoping to see a reply from you, without any kind of personal attack. So far I have yet to see one..........

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Samina #103

Putting up laundry lists will not lead to productive debate. My earlier point was that western feminists are oftentimes too ideologically driven, without paying heed to the science. 50 years back doctors thought smoking was harmless and women found it fashionable to smoke. Clearly we have a much different view on smoking now. Similarly, organizations such as NOW should be sensitive to the facts as they emerge and not simply harp on legalities (as they are doing by using title IX in opposing single sex education). I dont see why western feminists have to be so defensive in their posturing. Some humility will go a long way. After all ``you`ve come a long way baby`` as the cigarette ad went.

The funny thing is that, barring echoboom, most male interactors are quite sympathetic to the plight of women in south asia. If you like flaying at windmills, that is your prerogerative (sp). I found the UN report to be quite useful. It told me very clearly that the key issues facing south asian women have to do with prenatal care, discrimination in care during infancy and youth and education. These issues affect both genders and more so women. However for the most part these issues are peripheral in developed socities (barring minority of the lower class). The fact that one girl in pakistan is fighting barriers to become a pilot may serve as an inspiration to others facing similar barriers but, in itself, it is not that important. Maybe as important as visitation rights by fathers. Or sexist language in the workplace.

Because the west has been largely successful in removing systematic discrimination against women and minorities, these groups need to pick on imbalances of any sort and paint them as a result of avoidable discrimination. For arguments sake, lets suppose women lived 5 years less than men in developed societies. Feminist organizations would have made a big hue and cry about this. In fact, in developed countries women outlive men quite easily. No body suggests this is due to overt discrimination. At least not to date. But maybe this is in part due to the greater stresses that are put on males (rather than something programmed genetically). If so, men are getting a raw deal in developed nations. Maybe not. Until we have the evidence its hard to tell.

I have no doubt that NGOs in asia are addressing these issues. What is unclear to me is how western feminist ideology is going to be helpful in this context. I really had no opinion of NOW till I undertook to study that specific issue. Maybe they are right on all the other issues. Who knows? Similarly I had no opinion of you till your interacts here. However I do have a partially formed opinion which is not totally favorable, at least in the intellectual department. Maybe I am wrong. But to have a conversation, one has to respond substantively to what the other is expressing. Drop your categories like ``paternalistic``, ``chauvinistic``, etc.. they really may not apply to the other. If some of my language has pushed your buttons, you may pause to reflect how exactly your buttons came to be pushed.

In todays world, there are plenty of men who would gladly be a homemaker and look after the kids but cannot, due to circumstances. Women are privileged to be in this position and many of them do consciously make a choice to adopt the homemaker role. I mean, what the hell is career and such compared to the joy of raising real live humans? Overall, I would say that women in upper class families in south asia are a rather privileged lot, much more so than their male counterparts. They have a choice of home or career and even type of career (volunteering etc).. the male is much more restricted in terms of choices. So in fact south asian women are in a position to undertake activities that are more meaningful and some of them are doing just that.

Romair: I think you are a victim of some self inflicted injury. Please do not try to lay the blame on others. You were not addressed till post#99. Yes, some of the points you`ve raised were well dissected. What`s the big deal ? That`s part of discussion, Romair.

ZahraJ 99: ``I am sorry but I ain`t getting into the verbal back and forth with you. I am sure you have your hands full.``

This is an odd comment. Since you addressed me, before I addressed you. Now you are saying you don`t want to get in a verbal back and forth. If you don`t want that, then why address me, or mention my name in your replies, in the first place. I simply requested you to refrain from demeaning comments, name calling and such. After that it is up to you to comply or not. As long as one does not demean others, or call names, any kind of debate is fine.

``Your are quoting stuff that is simply obsolete and redundant. Are you saying that time has stopped and numbers have not gone up or down? Three cheers for analytical reasoning!!!``

Which of the, ``stuff`` that I have quoted is obselete or redundant? Kindly provide some information. Time is moving on, but these figures certainly aren`t. The only statistic I have quoted are as follow:

- Low literacy rate of women in Baluchistan, at 3.2%. Perhaps the lowest in the world. Depending on whose figures you follow, it has been stretched to a maximum of 12%. Though that is a large stretch. Some sources quote it as low as 2%.

- Low literacy of women in Pakistan. It sits at 16% or so, overall in the country.

- High worker participation of poor women in farms and in urban households as domestic servants. Nearly 80% of the rural women are involved in agriculture. More so than even the men (60%). I don`t have the exact figures for domestic servants in the category of sweepresses etc. But I have a feeling it is higher than the number of wealthy urban women who are employed.

I can provide you with a long list of sources that validate the above. However, do kindly let me know which statistics, out of the above are obselete and redundant.

All the other figures I have presented were just personal experiences, like number of people at a conference etc. Number of Pakistani women in IT, as compared to Indian etc. These, you will be unable to support or contradict, since they are personal experiences.

If you want to address someone, then kindly be prepared to go all the way through with an argument. Or kindly refrain from addressing them......................Or at least do so respectfully. Attack their argument, not the person..........

I have been reading this discussion with interest and would like to share my views from the perspective of someone who grew up in the subcontinent, learnt about feminism from reading and watching Betty Frieden (the mother of modern feminism, though lately quite mild), Gloria Steinem and Germane Greer, and raised two feminist daughters, one of whom constantly interrupts me whenever I use he/him denoting some stereotypical roles.

It seems to me that the core concept of feminism, gender bias and women`s empowerment is the same and cuts across the divides of time and space. But the specific issues of feminism obviously vary from the West to Asia to Africa. One could say, for instance, that in the Indian legend of Mahabharata, Draupadi was a feminist, not because she had five husbands but because she rebelled against her husband`s right to treated her as his property and gambling her away to another man. In islamic world, Hazrat Khadija could be regarded as a feminist, as she insisted upon being treated as an equal partner with her spouse, who remained monogamous as long as she was alive.

It is simplistic to treat India as a single entity for this purpose. There is a segment - large in number though small in percentage terms - for whom the issues of western feminism may be quite relevant. Muslim wome face some problems unique to them, as do upper/lower caste women, panjabi women, women in metros and women in rural areas.

The Indo-Pakistani society is very much influenced by the hindu religion`s ambivalent attitude towards the role of woman. On the one hand, she is worshipped as Lakshmi and Durga; every god/godess/avtar has his consort, e.g, Radha for Krishna and Sita for Ram. She is also worshipped as a child -kanya-kumari during navratres in panjab (called kanjak) and as mother. But she was also supposed to treat her husband as god (pati-prameshwar), not remarry if widowed or even perform sati and considered as property which was given by her father to her husband as donation (kanyadaan) during the marriage ceremony.

This dual, if not schizophrenic, attitude continues to date. All four south asian countries have had women prime ministers long before the concept of feminism became popular and there gender was hardly an issue in any country. But the role of ordinary woman continues to be subordinate and they face serious discriminations pointed out by other interactors.

That was an amazing conversation between Samina and Romair........I think that Romair was 90 percent right about the 40 percent things he said about 30 percent female illiteracy from the 6/5 th part of his brain.....................he is mostly 60 percent right about what he thinks about feminine literature since he thinks 80 percent of them are from the upper third part of the Desis living in the northern part of Canada.........................and hence Samina citing all the references is irrelevent since it do not make any sense in providing any solution to the problems of the Asian Women..........LOL!!!
Ise kehte hain Bhains ke aage Been bajana....................

That was an amazing conversation between Samina and Romair........I think that Romair was 90 percent right about the 40 percent things he said about 30 percent female illiteracy from the 6/5 th part of his brain.....................he is mostly 60 percent right about what he thinks about feminine literature since he thinks 80 percent of them are from the upper third part of the Desis living in the northern part of Canada.........................and hence Samina citing all the references is irrelevent since it do not make any sense in providing any solution to the problems of the Asian Women..........LOL!!!
Ise kehte hain Bhains ke aage Been bajana....................

That was an amazing conversation between Samina and Romair........I think that Romair was 90 percent right about the 40 percent things he said about 30 percent female illiteracy from the 6/5 th part of his brain.....................he is mostly 60 percent right about what he thinks about feminine literature since he thinks 80 percent of them are from the upper third part of the Desis living in the northern part of Canada.........................and hence Samina citing all the references is irrelevent since it do not make any sense in providing any solution to the problems of the Asian Women..........LOL!!!
Ise kehte hain Bhains ke aage Been bajana....................

101 - ana which previous post - I cannot see it. Or did you without realising use another nic....cool lady cool.

100 - Farazan you have hit the nail pretty clearly for once I must say you and I are in agreement...you have done some very good service to this board......

``..........Third World women criticized the priority American and European women put on reproductive rights language and issues of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and their disinterest in the platform proposal that was most important to less-developed nations—that of restructuring international debt....................``

I think some members were trying to obfuscate the issues by linking reproductive rights with international debt restructuring .......that is a typical strategy of some of the retrograde muslim organizations infilterating and shifting the focus from social and cultural reforms to purely economic one........yes these issues get linked but to exclude one in favour of economic factors is actually in the agenda of those who want to weaken a perfectly good movement reaching a consensus on cutural reform action points to be taken by the various governments the world over..............
As regards the question as to whether the issue of reproductive rights gets linked to control over the female bodies or not or the question whether the sexual orientation inherently negates the principle of distributive justice or Is Arundhati Roy relevant to the girl child in Kerela .......Most of these issues have been discussed thread bare in the journals does not deter the morons from keeping to their dogmas and refusing to even read the abstracts............such is the power of the disease called mullahism!!!

Zahra,

I saw Chowrangi as well. There are some talented young women working on that mag!

Warpster,

Here is what I pulled off of Now`s website:

Key Issues

Abortion Rights / Reproductive Issues
Affirmative Action
Constitutional Equality
Disability Rights
Economic Equity
Family
Fighting the Right
Global Feminism
Health
Judicial Nominations
Legislation
Lesbian Rights
Marriage Equality
Media Activism
Working for Peace
Racial and Ethnic Diversity
Title IX
Violence Against Women
Welfare
Women-Friendly Workplace
Women in the Military
Young Feminism

How difficult was that?

Now, what issues in this list are so out of touch with South Asian women?