Tsunami

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rsridhar: I am not sure that your criticism of the oil rich Arab countries is particularly valid: saudi arabia announced yesterday it was tripling its contribution to $ 30 million - relative to its population (25 million), this is almost exactly the official aid of $350 million announced by the US. No doubt private contributions from the US will amount to much more (one actress alone, Sandra Bullock, pledged $1 million). Tiny Qatar promised $10 million, which is not chickenfeed for a country that size. I despise the ways of the saudis as much as you do - but let stick to the facts and not beat on them at ever opportunity. Of course money is not everything, and the services being provided by men and women of the US carrier strike force Abraham Lincoln in terms of delivering water and food and medicine via helicopter - and taking away wounded people to local hospitals, and the large US hospital ship being brought to the area - are priceless in terms of saving lives. But, at this time of tragedy, the goodness in people of ALL faiths and nationalities has come out. All I hope for is that we all learn something from this, and try to rise about our petty concerns as I try to point out in the article.

This is a time when people from across the world have come together at the place of the tragedy - in India, I saw a hindu who was saved from being swept away by two muslims, and the three of them said that despite the communal strife in that area they felt like brothers. Also in that place, mosques were opened up to all flood refugees - hindus, buddhists as well as muslims.

rsridhar #132 Your post to Raka points to the dangers of reaching conclusions based on the words of a commentator like Limbaugh who is well known for his extreme biases, rather than using your own common sense. Thus, Limbaugh ignores (1) the role played by neighboring Malaysia (from where a large number of volunteer doctors are in sumatera) and by Pakistan (which, as I have mentioned, was very timely - and thus invaluable in terms of saving lives - in case of maldives); and (2) the giving capacity of countries - Turkey is not oil rich, and as I already pointed out the saudi contribution matches the official figure of the US if one takes into account their relative populations.

It doesnt say much for this indian website suleikha if this is how they are playing politics in the face of human tragedy. Limbaugh`s nonsense may be music to their ears, but it is still nonsense.

#128 by Rakapo$h
Ha, ha.
Now, what makes u defend those Saudi idiots, i wonder?
Muslim nations apathy has not gone unnoticed. It was mentioned by some commentators on CNN. Also, this news piece:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=411532

(Top radio talker Rush Limbaugh stepped into the breach on Tuesday, detailing for his audience the relatively stingy response from brother nations.
• Saudi Arabia - $10 million. ``That`s like an afternoon shopping spree in Paris for a member of the Saudi royal family,`` noted Limbaugh.

• Iran pledged a puny $627,000 - a small fraction of what they`re spending on their nuclear weapons program.

• Wildly wealthy Qatar - just $10 million of their petrodollars.

• The United Arab Emirates - $2.6 million.

• Kuwait - $2 million.

• Libya - $2 million.

• Turkey - $1.25 million.

Compare that to the $350 million in government aid pledged by the Great Satan (America), not to mention hundreds of millions more from private U.S. donors.)
Now, another piece of info. Have u heard of the hugging saint. She is famous among spiritual circles and even visited Pak. Do u know how much she donated for the cause?
22 million dollars! This is more than the donations from all muslim nations so far! This news was in Khaleej Times. Check the following redirect:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=411459.
Money matters in times like this. The world has seen the caliber and the ``so called brotherhood`` among muslim nations. It is just pathetic.
Sridhar

re:#129 by tahmed32
I stand by what i said even though i was wrong initially in assuming that no aid was given by Arab countries. I am talking about Oil rich Arab countries, so please do not bring in Pak or India into this. Both are poor nations and whatever they do is to be appreciated. Indians alone have raised 70 million dollars for the South. This is on top of govt and foreign aid.
But the contributions from Oil rich Arabs has been abysmal. One hopes things will improve after the proposed summit that is to take place soon where nations will spell out how much aid they are giving.
Sridhar

SR #124 Life on earth is indeed much more fragile than most of would like to believe. The earth`s crust itself merely floats upon a core of molten metal whose power we sometimes get a glimpse of in the form of volcanoes, earthquakes, and (now) the tsunami. Tens of thousands of asteroids and comets go around the solar system - in the asteroid belt beyond Mars, and in the icy Kuiper Belt (of which the planet Pluto is considered a part) and beyond that the Oort cloud (home to countless comets). It is only a question of time before one of these heads our way - and the only thing that would stand between our extinction as a species (like the mass extinctions that resulted in the end of the rule of the dinosaurs due to an asteroid hitting the yucatan penisula 65 million years ago). There have been other times of mass extinctions - including the precambrian mass extinction 600 million years ago. The appalling thing is that today we are going through another period of mass extinction - the cause this time being purely the spread of mankind in areas occupied by animal species before.

The big question then is: will this current period of mass extinction take down the top dogs (mankind) with it?? The answer is clearly up in the air: as Bill Joy, the brilliant scientist at Sun Microcomputer systems warned in a famous speech before resigning his job doing research in nanotechnology a few years ago - advancements in human technology may easily lead to unintended consequences. So, we can move science forward to protect us from being hit by an asteroid - but in doing so, we also create the possibilities of untended consequences of the kind Bill Joy warned against.

rsridhar: I agree with Raka that you need to check your facts before jumping to conclusions (like some other posters like nasah and parthab whose posts I dont consider worthy of a further comment because not only are they factually wrong - as in case of nasah talking about only seeing asian bodies on western TV, when I clearly recall seeing the bloated body of a western woman vacationer drowned by the tsunami - but also disgusting - as in case of nasah talking about dead bodies in a manner that only a Godless man could talk).

And as Raka points out, muslim countries have in fact been quite forthcoming, although admittedly not at the scale of the US. Raka has already provided some links for you to read. In addition to Sri Lanka - where Pakistan acted promptly by sending in a C-130 laden with goods, and where the Pakistani Edhi foundation contributed a similar amount as well - Pakistan also provided timely aid to the Maldives. As the link indicates, there were two Pakistan Navy ships visiting Maldives at the time which promptly went to work rescuing stranded people with the help of their helicopters and also used their helicopters to drop supplies. This is the link: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=573493&C=mideast

What is really heartening is that in the two places ravaged by brutal civil wars - sri lanka and aceh - even the insurgents and the government are coooperating with one another. While not much is heard of the rebels at aceh, I did read an article on the tamil tigers - who seem to have done a great job of not just not coming in the way of rescue efforts, but of actually actively organizing relief efforts in areas they control and permitting foreign and international agencies to also conduct relief efforts. While it is not clear what role the insurgents are playing aceh - it does seem obvious that they are not coming in the way of relief efforts.

Rakapost #128 Glad to see you keeping the record straight. And I love your great sense of humor. May Allah grant at least ten percent of your common sense and good humor to every chowkie. Amen. Then we would actually have an intelligent discussion take place.

sridhar,
The point was YOU said Saudis didnt send any help to Tsuanmi victims and I proved you wrong.
Now how they choose to spend their other expenditure is entirely their own business. I dont see anything wrong with them opening Islamic schools or distributing copies of Quran. I dont really care if India opens up temples or distributes copies of Geeta around the world either. I didnt see in your cut and paste any suggestions of Saudis funding Al-Qaeda. They are infact affected by Al-Qaeda the most currently and working to get rid of it.

Honestly speaking you can call any country scum of a nation. Its your opinion and doesnt really mean much.

PS: and dont get worked up in shaming me. I dont really have any.

10 questions that immediately spring to my mind in the aftermath of the recent tsunami are:

1.Is it true that some American scientists knew about the approaching disaster but did not act?
2.Is it true that a private phone call from a Singaporean to a coastal village in India saved 4 villages?
3.Is it true that the Indian military hierachy knew about the approaching tsunami after it struck the Andaman islands but did not inform the relevant ministries?
4.Is it true that no action will be taken against them?
5.Is it true that Bush earns more in a day in Iraq than the $350 he has promised to the victims of the tsunami?
6.Is it true that the UN takes such offers of aid with a pinch of salt as only a fraction of the promised aid usually materialises?
7.Is it true that the fury of one religious madman has killed more people in one country - Iraq - than the recent tsunami could?
8.Is it true that big fishing trawling companies will strike it rich because much of tragedy hit the micro fishing community?
9.Is it true that the economy of these coastal areas will improve only if the tourists return in the same numbers, and not if they moved on to different vocations?
10.Is it true that the only small comfort God can give the tsunami affected people now, is probably allowing them to spew at him (and look for other causes and solutions to natural calamities)?

re:#119 by Rakapo$h
O.K, i made a mistake.
So, Saudi Arabia promised some aid.
How does the amount promised compare with the amount spent on propagating a militant variety of Islam. I think u know the answer. If not, check the following article from the Washingtonpost:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A13266-2004Aug18?language=printer
Excerpt:
(King Fahd issued a directive that ``no limits be put on expenditures for the propagation of Islam,`` according to Nawaf Obaid, a Saudi oil and security analyst. Saudi Arabia now had the money: Its oil revenue had skyrocketed after the 1973 oil embargo. King Fahd used the cash to build mosques, Islamic centers and schools by the thousands around the world. Over the next two decades, the kingdom established 200 Islamic colleges, 210 Islamic centers, 1,500 mosques and 2,000 schools for Muslim children in non-Islamic countries, according to King Fahd`s personal Web site. In 1984, the king built a $130 million printing plant in Medina devoted to producing Saudi-approved translations of the Koran. By 2000, the kingdom had distributed 138 million copies worldwide.

Exactly how much has been spent to spread Wahhabism is unclear. David D. Aufhauser, a former Treasury Department general counsel, told a Senate committee in June that estimates went ``north of $75 billion.``)
So, Saudi Arabia spent $75 billion dollars over 20 years (this is the minimum amount) or about 4 billion dollar per year, on spreading Wahabism and yet gives only $ 10 million dollars in aid for its muslim brothers in times of need.
And you are out there defending this scum of a nation. Shame on you.
Sridhar

Raka , lets not get too excited shall we....Pakistan`s magnanimous aid effort amounted to a hefty $168k. Thats the sort of money an uncle of mine earns each year doing some coding stuff....

Ahmed sahib, thank you for pointing out the insignificance of our daily lives and the petty details we sometimes get bogged down with.

As you and others rightly point out, we were reminded by the Indian Ocean tsunami how vulnerable our civilization was to natural forces. Tsunamis are nothing new. Yet it seems that none of the effected populations were even remotely aware of the possibility, let alone being prepared for one.

This has made me more acutely concerned about another impending disaster that is coming our way sometime in the not-too-distant future. It is not going to be a world war or a climate change induced famine. No. Famine and war are out. It is going to be pestilence instead. WHO scientists say it is not just ``impending``, but ``imminent``.

I am referring to a mega pandemic of influenza... Yes, that`s right. Nothing exotic like AIDS or SARS, but just a massive worldwide series of common cold epidemics that make up a ``pandemic``. The world could see a much bigger pandemic than the one in 1918-19 which claimed far more lives than did the First World War. Its just a matter of time.

The bird flu virus has successfully ``crossed over`` the so-called ``species barrier``... There have been at least 3 confirmed deaths as a result of human-to-human transmission of the bird flu virus. Now the virus is incubating somewhere and at some future point it will burst out like an out-of-control fire storm. New viruses can lie in wait for years before bursting out of control. (The oldest known HIV positive blood sample, for instance, is from a person who died back in 1954. It wasn`t until 1981 that HIV was even identified.)

Whenever the pandemic hits, it could claim as many as 650 million lives worldwide. (The most conservative WHO estimates are closer to 7 million -- ``IF ALL goes well``.)

The 1918 pandemic claimed almost 50 million lives worldwide. But that Spanish Flu was just a virulent mutant strain of the HUMAN flu virus. The human species had lived with (and adapted to) its lesser virulent mutations for ages. The bird flu virus, on the other hand, is a new pathogen for the homosapien. Any time a new pathogen is introduced into a virgin population, the toll taken by the first wave of the spreading infection is the highest it will ever be again. In time the new host species develops enough immunologic memory so that the population can withstand any subsequent epidemic waves with far less devastation. But the first wave of a new infectious agent spreading through a defenseless population takes the greatest toll. The elderly, the very young and the immune-depressed take a disproportionately larger hit.

650 million is 10% of the 6.5 billion world population and it is a rather reasonable estimate of the death toll a ``first-wave`` pandemic could claim from a ``virgin`` population. The period from getting the infection to full blown disease is only ten days or less. About 30 to 50% of the population could catch the infection. A 20% mortality rate amongst the infected is quite likely. A worldwide pandemic could run its course in less than 18 months.

But stop, some will say. Why do you have to bring up such unpleasent possibilities? None of this doom and gloom is welcome, they will say. Its a New Year... let`s think about the positive.

Okay, let`s do. The silver lining here is that when this pandemic will finally be over, the western world`s looming pension crisis will also have been automatically resolved. The Black Death of the thirteenth century, for instance, was a catastrophic event no doubt, but it also resulted in unprecedented prosperity after it was all over.

...SR

Actress Sandra Bullock contributed $1.0 million to the American Red Cross to help countries hit by the deadly tsunami. She had contributed the same amount to the organization after 9/11. She is a kind soul.

Mohammad Gill

err...
rshridhar..
please check your facts first before you blow your fuse. If you think the muslim world specially the Saudis are going to get any + publicity over this in western media think again.

Saudi donate 10 million dollars

and note that was done on Dec 29th.

Help from Edhi center from Pakistan.

Edhi

how come axis of evil Iran is sending aid too ??

Pakistan sends jihadis....oops aid to Tsunami victims

re: Aid by muslim countries
Where are the oil-rich muslim nations in times of need? Indonesia and Maldives are 2 muslim countries devasted by Tsunami. Not one muslim nation has sent any money or manpower to help these countries. Saudi Arabian mofuckers are busy donating money for Jehad around the world but it seems they have no money to spare for their muslim brothers when money is direly needed in these 2 Tsunami-hit nations.
As always, it is the Western nations who have come to the aid of these countries.
Sridhar

``Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has come out of that centuries old Brahmanical taboo that ghettoized India to its own shores.``(avenger quote from aljazeera)

Brahmanical taboo that ghettoized India? -- not true -- it was actually an Indian Brahmin who pushed India right after 1947 to get deeply involved on the global scale with the non-aligned countries -- for one

Parthaab -- the answer to all ur 10 question is -- YES....

to #7. -- that Mongoloid born-again to-kill-Christian buffoon indeed may not have killed more people in one Iraq than the Tusnami did in eleven countries....but the dimwit is at least trying hard -- and as a Born-again Christian from the West -- he is definitely operating on a morally higher ground -- than the lowland devastating Tsunami of the third world....

....our Mongoloid is promoting Democracy by Torture in persuit of Christian values keeping the kill ration between the Iraqis and the Americans -- 100:1 -- while the Tsunami is utterly devoid of any moral values and killed indiscriminately....

....although -- u didn`t see -- any bloated bodies of the shiny White Westerners -- floating among the debris -- on the international TV......that honor is reserved for only the black Asians... because their profile is blends well in the the debris...

so keeping the perspective one will have to say that the Aceh Tsunami performed EVEN worse than our beloved born-again-Re-elected President....

......but then again -- compared to the Killer Tsunami our Killer President has -- `Four More Years`-- to top -- or at least do somewhat better -- than the third world Tsunami....in death and destruction.....Jesus Christ willing....

Parthaab -- the answer to all ur 10 question is -- YES....

to #7. -- that Mongoloid born-again to-kill-Christian buffoon indeed may not have killed more people in one Iraq than the Tusnami did in eleven countries....but the dimwit is at least trying hard -- and as a Born-again Christian from the West -- he is definitely operating on a morally higher ground -- than the lowland devastating Tsunami of the third world....

....our Mongoloid is promoting Democracy by Torture in persuit of Christian values keeping the kill ration between the Iraqis and the Americans -- 100:1 -- while the Tsunami is utterly devoid of any moral values and killed indiscriminately....

....although -- u didn`t see -- any bloated bodies of the shiny White Westerners -- floating among the debris -- on the international TV......that honor is reserved for only the black Asians... because their profile naturally blends well with the debris...

so keeping the perspective one will have to say that the Aceh Tsunami performed EVEN worse than our beloved born-again-Re-elected President....

......but then again -- compared to the Killer Tsunami our Killer President has -- `Four More Years`-- to top -- or at least do somewhat better -- than the third world Tsunami....in death and destruction.....Jesus Christ willing....

The Tsunami and some Pakistani apprehensions >>

India wants all credit for tsunami relief operations

By Iftikhar Gilani , Daily Times (Pakistan)

NEW DELHI: India, which had refused international aid for its tsunami victims, has been helping its neighbours with relief work in an attempt to project an image of a regional superpower.

The Indian government had even refused an aid offer from China which offered a $3 million aid package for tsunami victims in India. It has now joined in relief operations being carried out by the United States, Australia and Japan. Diplomats said the motive behind this move is India’s urge to be recognised as a major power in the Indian Ocean along with these countries. The Indian navy has launched four rescue and relief operations — The Operation Seawave (along the Andamans cost), Operation Rainbow in Sri Lanka, Operation Castor in the Maldives and the Operation Gambhir in Indonesia..

Army sources said that India was using Israeli-built Searcher Mark II drones to assess the damage from the mishap.

In the Andamans islands, where a unified tri-service command was headquartered, India has decided to set up an integrated relief command under Vice-Admiral Raman Puri, the chief of the integrated defence staff.

India is also uncomfortable with the proposed visit of a high-level team from Washington to the affected areas.

10 questions that immediately spring to my mind in the aftermath of the recent tsunami are:

1.Is it true that some American scientists knew about the approaching disaster but did not act?
2.Is it true that a private phone call from a Singaporean to a coastal village in India saved 4 villages?
3.Is it true that the Indian military hierachy knew about the approaching tsunami after it struck the Andaman islands but did not inform the relevant ministries?
4.Is it true that no action will be taken against them?
5.Is it true that Bush earns more in a day in Iraq than the $350 he has promised to the victims of the tsunami?
6.Is it true that the UN takes such offers of aid with a pinch of salt as only a fraction of the promised aid usually materialises?
7.Is it true that the fury of one religious madman has killed more people in one country - Iraq - than the recent tsunami could?
8.Is it true that big fishing trawling companies will strike it rich because much of tragedy hit the micro fishing community?
9.Is it true that the economy of these coastal areas will improve only if the tourists return in the same numbers, and not if they moved on to different vocations?
10.Is it true that the only small comfort God can give the tsunami affected people now, is probably allowing them to spew at him (and looking for other causes and solutions to natural calamities)?

For the Chowk readers who may be interested in the physics of tsunamis, the following article may be of some interest.

Mohammad Gill


Date:30/12/2004 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/seta/2004/12/30/stories/2004123000111600.htm

Sci Tech



Physics of the tsunami
The speed of the tsunami is governed by the water depth. Speed reduces and wave height increases as it approaches the shore.
BREEZE FLOWING across a lake or ocean can create wrinkles on the water surface and produce short waves restricted to shallow layer. Tides — high and low tides — that sweep the globe every day also produce waves.
But tsunamis that create killer waves are different for many reasons — they are not produced by gravitational pull of the moon but due to abrupt shifting of the sea floor and resultant vertical displacement of the overlying water. A tsunami is a series of ocean waves generated by such disturbances.
Bid to regain equilibrium
Waves are formed as the displaced water mass attempts to regain its equilibrium. And the size of the resultant tsunami waves is determined by the quantum of the deformation of the sea floor. More the vertical displacement, greater will be the size of the waves. As a rule, all earthquakes do not produce tsunamis.
To generate tsunamis, earthquakes must occur underneath or near the ocean, be large and create movements in the sea floor. The earthquake`s magnitude, depth, fault characteristics and coincident slumping of sediments or secondary faulting also determine the size of the tsunamis.
They can be more aptly described as a series of waves of extremely long wavelength and long period generated in a body of water by an impulsive disturbance that displaces the water. Wind-generated waves usually have period (time between two successive waves) of five to twenty seconds and a wavelength (distance between two successive waves) of about 100 to 200 metres (300 to 600 ft).
Tsunamis can have a period in the range of ten minutes to two hours and a wavelength in excess of 500 km. It is because of their long wavelengths that tsunamis behave as shallow-water waves.
Inversely related
A wave is characterised as a shallow-water wave when the ratio between the water depth and its wavelength gets very small. And the rate at which a wave loses its energy is inversely related to its wavelength. Since tsunamis have a very large wavelength, in excess of 500 km, it will lose little energy as it propagates.
Hence in very deep water, a tsunami will travel at high speeds and travel great distances with limited energy loss. For example, when the ocean is more than 5000 metres deep, unnoticed tsunami travel about 890 km per hour, the speed of a jet airplane.
A tsunami at 1000 metres of water depth would travel at 356 km per hour speed. At 5039 metre water depth, it would travel at 800 km per hour and at 6000 m of water depth it would travel at 873 km per hour. So a tsunami travels at different speeds in the ocean; slow in shallow water and fast in deep water.
Though there are many places in the ocean that are deeper than 5000 metres, an average depth of 5000 metres is reckoned and hence an average speed of about 750 km per hour. Thus it can move from one side of the Pacific Ocean to the other side in less than a day.
But what in the first place provides the force needed to allow a tsunami to travel a long distance? Tsunamis are what are called long gravity waves. There are two interacting processes that allow these waves to propagate. The first is the slope of the sea surface, which creates a horizontal pressure force.
The second is the piling up (or lowering of sea surface) as water moves with different speeds in the direction that the wave form is moving. When these two processes have the right relationship in time, they create propagating waves.
As the tsunami crosses the deep ocean, its wavelength — distance from crest to crest — may be hundred kilometres or more and its amplitude — height from crest to trough — will be in the order of a few feet or less. They cannot be felt aboard ships nor can they be seen from the air in the open ocean.
Advance warning
Despite the great speed, they travel much slower than the seismic waves. Hence earthquake information is often available hours before the tsunamis are able to travel across the ocean. Tremors were felt around 6.30 am in Chennai; it took more than two and half hours to reach the shores.
As a tsunami leaves the deep water of the open sea and propagates into the more shallow waters near the coast, it undergoes a transformation. Its speed is affected. The speed of the tsunami is directly related to the water depth; it slows down as it enters the shallower continental shelf water.
The friction of the continental shelf floor slows down the front of the wave. As a result of this slowing down, the trailing waves pile onto the waves in front of them, like a rug crumpled against a wall creating a wave.
This results in decreasing the distance between individual waves in a process called `shoaling`. The conservation of energy requires that the amplitudes (height) of the waves grow larger as the waves slow down. The height of the wave rises up to 30 feet or more and the total energy of the tsunami remains a constant.
Shoaling effect
Because of this shoaling effect, a tsunami that remained imperceptible in deep water may grow in height as it reaches the shore. Aftermath of a tsunami attack is nothing but destruction.
All oceanic regions of the world can experience tsunamis, but they are much more frequent in the Pacific Ocean. Occurrence of large, destructive tsunamis is common because of the many large earthquakes along the margins of the Pacific Ocean.
By Our Special Correspondent in Chennai
© Copyright 2000 - 2005 The Hindu

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AbdoolAmreeka-32: 102

This Tiaooo00N, as per the ``world according to Sgt. Abbaji``--aka as his ``Sacred-secret Hadeeth Scrolls`` was foretold & hence expected. Un-beknownst to you, your brain does a better Left-Right than your legs .

Never forget you are a cantonement-kennel Officers`-mutt. The thickness of their skull is pretty well-known even among the ranks. You thought you understood #102 (and at the same time it didn`t make sense to you...it was not supposed for you, O AbdoolAmreeka.*). You are the 2nd nicest, gentlest, politest DUFFER on Chowk. It works for a while, but eventually stupidity does speak-up.

The other AbdoolAmreeka is NOT a duffer; he is admired & cheered even when he utters kufr--because he is out of the closet. An honest man indeed.

You are nice & stupid.

Until and unless you curse your Masters, the ones who you consider your Providence, your rubb--the ones who as per you, give you roti--you`ll not be let off-the-hook by muslims.

*AbdoolAmreeka: Slave of Amreeka
Abd-allah: Abd--slave Allah : slave of Allah

avrenger,

......... so you are saying that your government would rather see a child starve to death than accept aid from the dutch and the british ?.......... avenger mian, get real - india is still very much a third world country inspite of the software exports and needs all the help it can get ........ there is no point in cutting off your nose to spite your face ......... there is something perverse about letting children die because of a false sense of pride .........

If receiving foreign aid works out as expensive as you claim it does though I cant imagine that foreign aid workers expect themselves to be put up in five or even three star hotels, well dont receive aid. But the argument that they go back and criticise us is again a case of being too sensitive . Some workers may go back and be critical, so what? Our development is lacking and our attitude callous to say the least. Other workers do put in good work and there are agencies who have worked all over the world and are trained to deal with emergencies quickly and efficeintly. Our workers may be committed but apart from a few organised agencies, the rest fumble along learning from mistakes they make. Emergencies such as the tsunami do not have the time for fumbling. Disasters such as these need urgent and well thought out relief and there is no harm in letting foreign agencies in for that. Of course no one says, let them go to Kalpakkam or Andamans if you dont want them to. Yet refusing aid altogether may just affect the people needing it the most- I think pride comes second to such widespread misery. Also Indians are not sensitive to the needs of the disaster stricken- mere food and clothing and shelter is not all they require. Counselling, kindness, immediate help for the mental trauma is required which we dont even address and people end up living their entire lives never being able to get over the impact of the disaster, whether a cyclone, or a riot or now a tsunami. We see so many disasters we become immune to them. Relief work is also a professional task which is how foreign agencies go about it. Misplaced pride will mean more bungling but then maybe our own agencies will learn finally, hopefully.

re:#104 by avenger
Looks like Gujjubania is back in a new avatar! How much credibility will a person have if he has to keep changing his name?
India may be politically right in refusing aid but it is a stupid act. In times like this, one has to get aid from all sources. More improtantly, some international agencies like CARE, ``Doctors without borders``, Red Crosss etc have a long experience of disbursing aid to the target area in good time. This is what saves lives, not the huge amount of foreign exchange that India has in its vault.
India is woefully lacking in infrastructure. Though not true, there is a general impression even among Indians that the money donated to Indian NGOs end up in somebody`s pockets. I saw an Indian (name sounded Sindhi to me) say so on CNN. This was shameful to hear.
Sridhar

tahmed32#103:

``But India does stop at wagah, dost mittarjee``

...but not the land [I was careful about what I said :-)].

(from newsinsight.net)

C O M M E N T A R Y

Keeping the pride

Manmohan Singh has stunned the West by refusing aid.

31 December 2004: The focus is on the United States for stingy contribution to tsunami victims, but another aid war is in the making, between India and several countries in Europe, but mainly, the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany, after prime-minister Manmohan Singh refused assistance from them. Diplomats have been seeking reasons from the government, calling one another in ire, and even helplessly buttonholed journalists to check what is going on. But through all this, the PM has remained firm not to take aid, and with good reason.

India has had bad experience of taking foreign aid in the past, but it became almost grotesque during both the Gujarat earthquake and the Orissa super cyclone. In Orissa, European aid agencies instead of primarily focusing on giving relief meandered into criticising the state’s poor infrastructure, and wrote bitingly about the lack of development in the fifty years since Independence.

The lack of development is not exactly a state secret, but the government did not permit the aid agencies in to present a drain inspector’s report. And a cost-benefit analysis showed it was just not worth inviting foreign aid. In the Gujarat earthquake, the Japanese were busily testing the water standards in affected areas and pronouncing it undrinkable, instead of concentrating on the primary task at hand, providing relief.

These two experiences, say officials, put off the government. It was terrible to be faced with natural disasters, but it was worse to be attacked thereafter, bringing down even the good work done, in exchange for aid, which in any case turned put inadequate. There was a third experience, a little different from the first two, but revealing the colonial/ imperial mindset of Europe.

In the Gujarat riots, some Dutch monuments were vandalised. There was no particular anger against the Dutch, but Indians are generally careless about heritage, and in any case, in the mad violence of the riots, protecting colonial monuments is the last thing on any government’s mind. In this case, Narendra Modi could not even secure the life of Gujaratis.

Anyhow, the Dutch wrote in protest to Modi, who replied to the effect that the government had more pressing responsibilities. In Europe, the Netherlands and Belgium, small powerless countries among mighty neighbours, have for one or another reason always sided against India. Several European countries wrote their findings on the Gujarat riots, and the British report was particularly scathing against Modi.

The British report got leaked first in Europe and then in the Indian media. The NDA government was furious, but the British said they had no hand in the leak. Indian agencies then traced the leak to the Dutch, rather to a Dutch public-affairs officer, who was returning Modi the favour of not protecting Dutch colonial history.

Subsequently, on the basis of the British report, the European Union decided to suspend aid to India, and stung, the then PM, A.B.Vajpayee, ordered to refuse assistance from eighteen countries, most of them in Europe, but also including Australia, New Zealand and Japan. These donations were small, the PM said, and India did not need them any longer. The diplomatic community could not stomach this stinging rebuff.

Soon after the UPA came to power, the government did reverse this decision, but the PM has returned to the old position. Manmohan Singh has always reflected strong national pride, as when he took determined steps as finance minister to buy back the gold pledged by the Chandrasekhar government in 1991, or when, on his own, he rebuffed Natwar Singh’s criticism of India’s weaponisation programme in South Korea, saying in Parliament that India was a nuclear weapons’ power and would remain one.

But besides national pride, there are also logistical and security considerations behind his decision to say no. Officials say that the bother commences after fast-tracking visas for aid workers, because they have to be secured, they have to be provided living environments like back home, which comes at huge cost in disaster-struck areas, and the government has to place at their disposal huge logistical facilities, that hamper other, more profitable local assistance. After all this follows the routine of savaging India’s image in the Western media.

But there is also a pressing security consideration. The tsunamis have hit India’s strategic assets in the Andamans, partly Orissa, and the government wants to contain any negativity following the flooding of the Kalpakkam nuclear complex. “The British are particularly notorious about carrying out espionage activities in such times of vulnerability, setting up devices, moles and sleeper teams, and fresh demands could be made to sign CTBT, NPT, etc, based on eyewitness accounts from Kalpakkam, for example,” explained an official. “You can never tell.” A new spat has broken out over India mulling over giving overflight rights over the Andamans for France, Britain and the Netherlands to evacuate their tourists. Diplomats say India is standing on false pride by refusing even emergency aid, but at the same time, these countries refuse to make cash contributions to the prime minister’s relief fund. They want to come with material relief and personnel, and India has had more than enough of them. The second spin diplomats put is that India is keen to portray an image of self-sufficiency to strengthen its claim for veto power in the UN Security Council. No one in the government carries that mindset, and certainly not the PM, who has acted alone and taken a bold step to refuse aid. In the midst of this huge spiraling tragedy, India is ironically gaining in image as no longer a Third-World country.

echosqueek, I mean boom-boom #100 Your post to hamidm makes no sense at all. You seek to crush Westernism (if not the West itself!), but are cant pull together a legible sentence. I think you have some ways to go

As for reciting the ayatul-kursee - do you think Islam is some kind of a voodoo religion, you idiot??!! Where you say read the magic verses, say ``chhoo mantar``, and whatever you wish comes true!! It is exactly these superstitions that you flatter yourself into thinking is ``practicing Islam`` that violates everything Islam stands for and in fact is the same paganism that Islam was introduced to eliminate in arabia. But dont get me started on religion...

dost mittar #99 But India does stop at wagah, dost mittarjee.

Just kidding above - I know what you mean, and fully share with you, the natural links between Indians and Pakistanis. Even as they try to outdo one other in everything. Which would be a cute form of sibling rivalry if it wasnt for the tragic turn into bloodshed that such rivalry has degenerated into in the past (but hopefully, we will have better days ahead).

And dont worry - we Pakistanis like to think of India as being our renegade province. (just maintaining the spirit of sibling rivalry here). :-)

sac #97 So we agree on the broader picture. As for this chink in the armor, as I mentioned that the best things money cannot buy. Installing undersea sensors to provide early warnings for tsunamis seems to be quite managable technically and economically. Introducing national disaster warning systems (like NOAA in the US) is also manageable, particularly with the increasing prosperity of countries in the region. But what money cannot buy is emergency preparedness by the communities concerned.

In any case, just to keep things in perspective, I think even now (with $500 million pledged to date by the international community, with an entire US aircraft career fleet expected to reach the region in a few days, with regional armed forces from India, Indonesia, Thailand, Sri Lanka, and even Pakistan even though we were lucky to not get hit) involved, and given the vast resources that India and Indonesia themselves possess) money seems to be becoming less and less of an issue.

AbdoolAmreeka: 96

The whole purpose here is to crash & crush the Westernism which HAD crept into superior civilisations because of Secularistic/ Atheistic evangelicim by your gora deadbeat Dads.

Through Chillaas & Ayatul-kursees throughout the world Westernism & Colonialism Is being exorcised. It is affecting you as well. You will get better.

You ARE getting better. George Carlin act is --pooof!

You WILL revert!

echoboom#86:

Yes, I do love India but my love for that land does not stop at Wagah.

I also admire Mahatir, but as far as I know he did not impose nizam-e-mustafa in Malaysia. So, should you not condemn him as a Munafiq, too?

urstruly #87 Instead of concerning yourself with the psychology of interlocuters whose viewpoints you disagree with, I think you would do better to focus on the substance of what those interlocuters have actaully written. :-)

No one needs to apologize to anyone about the US role in the tsunami. As you yourself note, the US is by no means the only country economically capable of lending a hand - China, EU, Japan, and even two of the major affected countries (India and Indonesia) have vast armies as well as economic resources. And to its credit, the Indian government (as harimau correctly points out) has already chosen to become part of the solution by helping other nations and not part of the problem (by seeking help fro others). Early indications are that the Indonesian government is not moving as fast as it perhaps could in aceh (where western reporters managed to get to places by road where there was no sign of Indonesian army troops - and this despite the [presence of large numbers of Indonesian troops fighting the civil war in aceh!!). Even the Pakistan government has reacted quite well - a C130 loaded with relief goods was in Sri Lanka within 48 hours of the tsunami. And Pakistani Navy ships and helicopters are even now operating in the maldives, saving lives for once.

I have always found hyper-religious but highly educated muslim gentlemen like Malik , Echoboom and Urstruly extremely creepy and even scary in a mild way. The below account of the 1971 genocide of 3 million of their then fellow citizens perpetrated by their own Army should shed some insight into the mentality of devout muslims like the trio mentioned.

---

Mindset of Pakistanis favouring 1971 Genocide

By Abul Kasem

This re-count starts when I was in Thailand in 1973 to do my post graduate studies in Engineering. The Institution was AIT and being an international institution for post graduate study there were students from many parts of the world, though the majority were from the Asian countries. There was sizable number of Bangladeshi as well as Pakistani and Indian students. Bangladesh was just liberated and most of us still had the fresh memories of the holocaust and never expected the Pakistanis to be friendly with us. But to our surprise, we found that most Pakistanis were quite nice a bunch of friendly helpful people. They were extremely curious about what had happened in Bangladesh during that turbulent nine-month period.

Many a time we used to have lengthy chat sessions with them. These Pakistanis were extremely religious. And they used to preach on us on all aspects of the last revelations of God, that is Islam. They used to think that our knowledge of Islam was incomplete, erroneous and filled with Hindu practices. They used to preach on us like a priest gives sermons on the followers. Their devotion to Islam was so strong that they forced the canteen manager to open counter for Muslim students so that they (the Muslims) can eat the food sanctioned by Islam. Naturally, many Bangalees who are religious minded were greatly impressed by their words and practices. But a sinner like me was very skeptical about their words and actions right from the very beginning.

Then came the topic of creation of Bangladesh. Naturally, they sided with the Pak army although they expressed sorrow for the lives lost. When they heard that 3 million people were massacred and that the action of Pak army cannot be dismissed simply as an act of restoration of peace and order they simply laughed. The reason was that they did not believe what had happened to our people in occupied Bangladesh. When we asked them how many Bangalees were killed, they quoted a figure of 3,000 or to that order. They also insisted that those killed were mostly Hindus so we should not bother too much about the massacre. That was to say that the killing of Hindus was all right. We pointed out that the figure of 3 million was not invented by the Government of Bangladesh but the figure was from reliable foreign sources such as AFP, Reuters, Time magazine, etc. We also told them that a Pakistani journalist by the name of Anthony Mascarenhas has written a book titled ‘The Rape of Bangladesh’ where he had quoted a similar figure. The Pakistanis simply dismissed those facts and said that the foreign journalists were bribed by India to write these figures. When we asked them how did they get the figure of 3,000, they said that that figure was released by the military authorities. And how about the 200, 000 rape cases? They were adamant that not a single woman was raped. Such is the power of Pak oligarchy and Pak military to condition peoples’ mind.

Now, the interesting point was that whenever the atrocities of the Pak army were mentioned to them, they were all adamant that we (the Bangalees) are to blame for that. Why? Simply because we were not good Muslims. How? If we were good Muslims, we should not have voted for the Awami League. They told us that the right parties to vote were Pakistan Muslim League or Jamat-i-Islami. It was no secret to guess that most Pakistanis considered us (Bangalees) as non Muslims as almost all of us voted for Awami League. Therefore they opined that the genocide was not really a genocide! It was getting rid of the non-Muslims. After all, they (the non-Muslims) were not really human beings.

Everyone knows that Thailand and especially Bangkok has plenty of seedy joints to have fun and frolic with young women. I shall admit that I went to one of those joints along with a couple of friends of mine. Being a sinner I did not have serious problem with those things. However, one day we got the shock of our lives when we found these Pakistani Islamists sitting comfortably and blithely at the massage parlour and ogling at the scantily dressed amorous Thai sex kittens. Then they saw us. To our surprise, they expressed no shame or they even did not try to hide their faces. They openly welcomed us and shook hands with us as per Islamic style. We were simply stunned and lost for any word. The Pakistanis even told us which girls were good and sexually attractive, etc. etc. They were not ashamed or afraid to admit that they visited those joints quite frequently. Most of them had their favourite girls with whom they had plenty of erotic fun. Those things were unbelievable to me and I thought that I must have been in Mars or another planet or that God has changed his mind on sins and virtues.

After a few weeks, an opportunity came for me to ask one of these Islamists as to what would happen to them since they have committed the sin of zina. They were very surprised at me for this impertinence. He told me that they have committed no sin. What? No sin! My brain must have failed to work! I simply could not hold my breath any longer to listen to what they had to say. He told me that Thais were not Muslims; so having fun with their girls were all right. In fact, he told me that that had been the practice in Islam for centuries. Whenever the Muslims defeated the non-Muslims, they could do whatever they (the Muslims) wanted with the non-Muslims. The Muslims can use the non-Muslim women as sex slaves and please themselves as they wished. A Muslim even had the right to kill the women if he wished. In simple language the non-Muslims were not really human beings. They (the non-Muslims) were inferior even to cattle and animals. Moreover, the Pakistani told me that the Prophet had allowed to have sex if a man is living overseas. I could not believe of what I was hearing! He then quoted me from his memory many verses from Koran and Hadith to support his views. Then I reminded my Pakistani friend that there was quite a small minority of Muslims in Thailand. So, if by accident he had sex with one of the Thai Muslim prostitutes what will befall him. He answered glibly, “No problem.” When I return to Pakistan I shall have a Milad Mehfil and ask for forgiveness. Finally, the Hajj is there for him to receive the forgiveness. But he said that that might not be necessary because he was very sure that none of the girls he had sex with were Muslims.

If a Pakistani reads this re-count he/she may be greatly offended, no doubt about it. Many Pakistanis will defend that the view by one person does not mean any thing. No apology will be sought. Any Pakistani can form whatever opinion he thinks is suitable. It is up to him/her. Let us look at the wider implications of what my Pakistani Islamists had said. Was it an individual’s wrong interpretations of the holy books of Islam? Was it the mindset of a mentally sick person? Do not be fooled by these thoughts. For when we look back, we see that that was the mindset of Pakistani army recruits who unleashed a reign of terror leading into massacring millions of Bangalees. Pakistanis may differ on many matters but when the question of Islamic superiority comes, they are unanimous. This was the work of the Oligarchy, the army and the clerics of Pakistan. These groups have rigidly programmed the vast majority of Pakistanis with the thought that they (the Pakistanis) have the absolute superiority in Islamic matters. And this thinking got a further boost with the detonation of Islamic bomb in 1998. We Bangalees have no problem with their superior thinking. The only trouble is that these dangerous thoughts have cost 3 million dear lives of Bangalees.

So, to put everything in a simple language, the Pakistani army did not kill any human being in Bangladesh. They only cleared the field from pest; just like a farmer spreads insecticide to free his crops from devastation. So, is the case of the Pak army. They simply eliminated the non-Muslims and the not so good Muslims to protect the good Muslims those who would follow them. The question of remorse or guilt feeling does not arise at all. You see, the Pak army did not rape any women. They simply enjoyed the flesh of non-Muslims. Even if there were some excessive force being applied, there is no need to feel guilty about that. The ubiquitous Milad is there; the Hajj is there too to remove even the slightest trace of culpability. A serial killer is a psychologically sick person. He gets pleasure in seeing the suffering of a dying person in his hands. But deep down, the serial killer knows that what he is doing is wrong. He is surely aware of the eventual punishment if he is caught. That is why, most serial killers readily admit their crime and on many occasions regret of their actions when he recovers from his sickness. How about the perpetrators of a genocide? They are perfectly normal. Most of them are really very nice, polite, and soft spoken (like the Islamic Circle of North America’s leader Ashrafuzzaman Khan). But there is one trait that separates them from the rest of us and that is, the uncompromising faith in the supremacy of what they belief and their inability to accept the existence of others if they do not follow them. Any means is justified to advance their belief even if that means the annihilation of an entire race. That is why no Pakistani has ever condemned the genocide of the Bangalees. That is why they will do that again if an opportunity lends itself. Since no crime has been committed, the question of trial of the perpetrators of genocide does not arise at all. Isn’t it so?

This is the mindset of the planners and executioners of Bangladesh genocide.

---

The above context should be kept in mind whenever these gentlemen - Urstruly , Malik and Echoboom , shed copious self-righteous sanctimonious tears over the `attrocities perpetrated by US , Israel , India etc. on poor innocent muslims world over` .

Mind you , Malik`s response to the massacre of `low caste` black colored African muslims by the `blue blooded` Arabic muslims at Dafur , Sudan was that `One needs to study the issue more deeply. It is all a western conspiracy. Dont listen to the western media`....

As the last waters of the tsunami recede, uncovering the deaths of tens of thousands, the time is for questions about reasons for the unpreparedness for the tragedy.

Have the wise American scientists who knew the disaster was coming but `didnt know how to dial a phone number`, and pass on the information, been given some sane advice?

How much of the relief money promised by western governments will actually materialise?

In the olden times, God took all the credits and blames, for an act of nature. In this day and age, can even an unprecedented act of nature cannot match the numbers killed by one violent, religious fanatic called Bush - that too in a single country!

Is more money being spent on Iraq every day by America, than that promised for the tsunami victims?

In the good old days, there was a moral to every tragedy. Is there a moral to this one?

urstruly & echo,

........ i don`t know how you guys can link the tsunami tragedy with the war of liberation in iraq, but i guess in your hate filled sick minds there is no room for reason ..........let`s not pollute this board with nonsense, i am sure there will be other opportunities......... besides, i know you have a busy evening coming up: disrupting pagan new year parties, throwing rocks, beating up girls, overturning cars and stealing lawn furniture ..............

re tahmed32 #88:

I have no beef with your painting of the larger picture. I merely wanted to point out a chink in the American armor. Only by acknowledging and criticizing it can we hope to move the discussion forward. The American government will be forced to spend more money in aid as the common American just like a common man anywhere else in the world will show that he cares and the powers that be will be forced to listen to public opinion.
We can put aside the debates related to how that public opinion is manipulated and moulded to suit ones purposes.

later
-sac

hamidm#92 writes ``...... i hope you are putting your money where your big mouths are ...... ``

hamidm sahib, Urstruly and Echoboom sahib did not launch this tsunami nor did they lobby Allah to create it. So they should not be asked to shoulder the financial liability of this tragedy.

You on the other hand actively propagated the American invasion of Iraq. Consequently you should put your own mouth where your money is. Your country needs your money and could definitely use your children`s service in the armed forces. But you are not touching that war even with a 39 1/2 foot pole.

You had gloated at the onset of the massacre in Iraq that you were going to book a room in Al Rashid hotel in Baghdad and would spend next winter there. Well, almost 2 winters have passed and you are no where near Baghdad.

I wonder why you are so hesitant in joining the iraqis dancing non-stop in the streets of Baghdad for the freedoms that the likes of you have blessed them with. I can`t say what the exact reason might be for your absence from Baghdad, but I would venture to say the fear of sodomization via a rocket launcher might be the big deterrent.

Anyways, happy new year !

Abdool-Amreekaa:91

(Anybody`s suicide could be a bit risky for you & your fellow bufoons. Do do not wish True Believers something that may eventually end in you getting The Acquired Syndrome--as a punishment from Allah. I`ve seen it happen to secular/atheist types)

Oh merlot-mutt: good yelp!

Until you repent & atone by cursing U.S this jingle will keep on ringing in your ears & haunt you.

``Happy Happy is me now, I`m an Abdool-Amreeka
See my tail is all-a-wagging & lifted for his plaayyaa*
I lick his boots & then shine it with my own slurpy tongue
It`s the muslim & his mullah who puts bhung in my rUng``

P.S: I notice the George Carlin ``humour`` missing. Ready to revert?

Urstruly: Assalaam-alakum yaa braather-in-Islam. yaa muhibbee yaa akhee!

sac #84 you have ignored the points I made and are simply repeating what your earlier point, which I have accepted as valid, but only a very narrow aspect of the broader picture. How can you move forward in a discussion if you ignore what the other person is saying?

hamidm #82 I am not sure what point you are addressing here but it certainly an example of the ``dangars`` (as in mawaeshi) in our society.

urstruly and echo.

...... i hope you are putting your money where your big mouths are ...... better yet, why don`t you donate all your worldly assets to unicef or the red cross before you strap on your suicide belts ........ you guys are sick !

Ref nazarhayatkhan #45

[(US has allocated $ 10 million in aid. It is spending $ 1 billion a week in Iraq)]

It was reported that the US offered Rs. 44.5 lakhs to India (the equivalent of US$100,000. No, I am NOT kidding). It seems India turned it down and pointed out that it is capable of managing the tragedy on its own while helping Maldives and Sri Lanka at the same time.

It is quite interesting to see different viewpoints here that lead us into the psychology of the interlocutors. Some interlocutors here contend that US should do more to aid the victims of such disasters whereas the apologists are providing statistics to prove that America is benevolent - for some reason these statistics do not rise above the level of the murmur. The underlying truth here, however, is that US is sitting on most of the world resources like a cobra; in their hearts everybody including Americans are convinced of this fact. That is the reason every news channel in US is working over time to convince Americans that they are benevolent. The truth, however, is bitter than that - a time has come that world is not looking for American handouts and its largesse, it wants equity and just distribution of resources. The media can work its magic to only certain extent. In this day and age when a family living in a shanty town in Columbo and a man surfing the web in Pindigheb sees that there is a country out there where even dogs and cats have health insurance and grocery stores that have food sections for animals, which are as big as that for humans he begins to question. When US slaps its $35 mil of largesse in the face of humanity, people question.

dost-mittar:

In love of India what is it that you wouldn`t do.
The emphasis here, buzurgjee, is as the headline says:
And this is the Jama`aat and the Masjid : The Fundamentalists, the Mullahs, the fanatics.

India is just the backdrop. An incidental here.

Islam & muslims will ALWAY be a priority in my posts. Nothing gets ``embedded`` here. So either read or move on.Nothing is a `lead-on here as some charlatans try to package their `articles` [feature-writer types:anglicised scum] here. The most Zaleel person on earth is a munafique . It is a muslim`s sacred duty to un-earth a munafique from amongst the fold. A clear kafir like yourself is respected and acknowledged as such in under Muslim Law, but a munafique (hidden murtid) should always expect lightening retributions from fellow muslims. Sleeper-cell `tolerance` are a no no in ANY honourable society.

Always always retain THIS & THIS perspective in mind when talking to a muslim. There is nothing obscure here. [This is, sorry to say, secular westernised trash-talk. Won`t work with me].

What does dost-mittar mean here? Echoboom ? blah blah blah. Are these not obscure sources? This word shows contempt towards Islam & religion in general. It gives one away. It is a SECULARISTS & ATHEISTs word.Please just go by CONTENTS & content alone and if possible DO try to get influenced by the contents--that is why they get posted here.

Unfortunately you belong to baboo-generation & some remnants of that I see in the Indo-Pakis of today as well(caste-curse I presume). It is the paper-pushing jobbery mentality which are the diseases of having contacted ``Universitisis`` [ University ``higher`` education which turns `free` people into `working-class` types ( ever noticed the contempt in this phrase by the `white-collared` ones, who never realised that they themselves are really the slogging & sweating class who only recently found the `value` of unionism & associationism)

It is only Professors of the ``gheto`` subjects[like sociology, pol-sci, econmics , psychology, Lit-leechuRR and other such societal-manipulating (``black-magic``: sorcery--the religion of paganism secularism) who need ibids & et als. The wretched ones have to earn a living. Those whop do not need anyones ``approval`` ``appreciation`` and ``job`` NEVER ever resort to such kind of ``scholarly`` stooping.

echoboom#77

Thanks for posting that message. It does more for the image of islam than the many long articles you publish from obscure sources. It shows the humane and compassionate image of islam. It is also heartwarming that the news is getting a wide coverage in the Indian mainstream media, which counters the image of Indian muslims spread by the Togadias and Singals, etc. Ironically, I got this also in the email from two people who I know are BJP supporters.

............ it takes a rare breed to turn a human tragedy into a tamasha ......... years ago, i remember an accident on murree road when a taxi knocked over an old woman ........... while the woman lay in the middle of the road moaning and groaning, the crowd busied itself mercilessly beating the taxi driver ......... the poor taxi driver, with his clothes tattered and bleeding from the head and nose, begged for mercy but the crowd was in no mood to listen .............

rakaposh sahiba - its good to see you interacting. you write well and from heart. hope to see you more often on these boards, if possible.

re tAhmed#81:

The US contributes less than one quarter of one percentage point of its budget to foreign aid. And it contributes less than half the development aid contributed by the EU.
Whether these numbers are justified or not is upto personal viewpoints. I just marvel at the hypocricy when European countries are chided for not paying their ``share`` of reconstruction aid required for Afghanistan or when they are derided for not forgiving Iraq`s debts owed to them.
The sheer audacity with with Powell and Bush tried to contradict the UN official`s statement speaks volumes about the moral bankruptcy of the ruling elite in this country.

later
-sac

sac #68 I agree that in percentage terms the US official aid is much less than what EU contributes, and indeed would support the target of 1% of the GNP that was once set for foreign aid many years ago.

However, it is important to keep in mind that foreign aid is only a means to an end, the end being peace and progress for ALL humanity. Keeping this in mind, I would say the following:

1. As I mentioned earlier, while official aid from the US is low, unofficial aid from the US is twice the amount and workers remittances from the US are several times the amount of official aid - thus, in total (as I said earlier, and those figures seem to cross-check with what Raka also indicates) funds flowing from the US to developing countries is about $35 billion (or more than 10 times the official aid).

2. Official aid is a mixed blessing. See chaltahai`s post #72 for example - and I would agree that Pakistan doesnt need F-16s. It needs peace. And peace is best obtained by settling differences. Like MasterCard, while F-16`s are expensive, peace is priceless. And doesnt require foreign aid. Only requires a responsible government that looks for the interest of Pakistanis, not of itself.

3. Official aid is one of the poorest ways to promote peace and progress, imho. There are two far better ways, as follows:

i. More trade (by eliminating trade barriers, as being going to happen in just a couple of days for textiles as a result of the WTO agreement) is a far, far better way - it not only eliminates this giver-taker relationship and replaces it with one of equal partners (a far better arrangement for both parties), it also provides the foundation for long term prosperity. The US has played a leading role in the elimination of trade barriers.

ii. Offshoring: Again, technologies created in the US, and policies of the US government, have played a leading role in the offshoring boom.

I rest my case. :-)

Ijaz Gul ,

Sadly for you , the reactor is safe. Military facilities are in shape too. Thanks for your interest.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Rakaposh :``Countries like Thailand and others with great tourist income could have eaisly afforded the warning mechanism and even India. Few less missiles and few less planes and more on safety of its citizens. ``

First of all , India has like more money than Thailand and others ..to say the least.

Secondly , India has some excellent world class early warning satellite systems but they are geared towards predicting cyclones , mansoons and watching out for signs of river flooding . Unfortunately , there was never one for prediction of a tsunami as tsunamis have NEVER struck India before this. Henceforth an appropriate mechanism will be put in place.

Lastly , even the nastiest natural calamity can at best take away a few thousand lives. Knowing the nature of the neibourhood that Indians live in , failure to invest adequetely in planes and missiles could easily compromise the safety and freedom of a few hundred million....thanks for the concern and advise anyway.

aid is used by many donor (not all) to control interest they have in their previous colonies, and that is why EU aid is much higher. EU stated like france still regard west africa as their raj. americans pretty much focused on giving aid to israel, egypt, jordan and pakistan. and then the great marshal plan and post-ww help to korea, japan, thailand etc..

chaltahai,
sarcasm noted but yes I agree if the funding to Pakistan had been for education, vaccinations , clean drinking water, health issues , I would have been all for the US aid. But if you notice all the funding is there after 9/11 ( previously we were on sanctions if you remember ), mainly for antiterrorist and strategic help...

We can do with less missiles and so can you.

This is not to invoke a south asian contest.

What has happened to the Indian Power Reactor in Chennai, the fast breeder reactor and military facilities in Nicobar etc. Is it because India does not want the world to know that it refuses international assistance, or does it run counter to her great power status.

Just and inquiry
Cheerios

And this is the Jama`aat and the Masjid : The Fundamentalists, the Mullahs, the fanatics.

For the lapdogs of the US thugs, brought up in the Kennel Colonies of Pak army and who consider it a ``kufr`` to yelp a single tiaoooon to condemn their masters.

The jingle of an American Lap-puppy:
``Happy Happy is me now, I`m an Abdool-Amreeka
See my tail is all-a-wagging & lifted for his plaayyaa*
I lick his boots & then shine it with my own slurpy tongue
It`s the muslim & his mullah who puts bhung in my rUng``

* pleasure`` : The way Ba Ba Blacksheep, from cantonements, pronounce when in
missionary position!

Whoever sees himself in this mirror will soon bark and yelp.

---

Mosque works overtime to take care of Hindu, Christian fisherfolk
Indian Express: December 30, 2004

RAJEEV P I

Posted online: Thursday, December 30, 2004 at 0255 hours IST

CUDDALORE, DECEMBER 29: Rahmatullah is a tired man. He and his nephew have just returned to their masjid after burying an unknown Christian man, identifiable by the black thread with the little cross around the neck. They had not forgotten to put a makeshift bamboo cross on the burial mound.

He now needs to take the infant daughter of Shivakumar, both staying in the masjid, to the doctor. ‘‘Maaf karna, kaam bahut pada hai. Hamara president Younus saab se baath keejiye,’’ he says in Hindi, before going out.

In Cuddalore, the second hardest-hit town in Tamil Nadu when the killer waves came, a masjid and the local jamaat have emerged as the rallying point for thousands of fisherfolk—almost all of them Hindus and Christians. There are hardly any Muslim fishermen in Cuddalore, and most of the local Muslims are either traders—which explains the Hindi—or have NRI sons in the Gulf. There have been no Muslim casualties.

‘‘We came to know when people came running to the masjid, minutes after it happened. We decided to do what we could do,’’ says Mohammed Younus, president of the United Islamic Jamaat. ‘‘Isme kya badi baath hai?’’ he asks.

The administration is grateful. Says District Collector Gagandeep Singh Bedi: ‘‘They have been doing wonderful work, I was with them the whole last night.’’ Once the relief and rescue work is over, Bedi plans to write to the state government about their work.

Within minutes of the tsunami striking Pudukuppam, Samayarpettah, Chinnoor and other little villages along the Cuddalore coast on Sunday morning, Younus had summoned his flock. Within half an hour, his men had left their shops and homes for the beaches in their goods vans, cars, two-wheelers and cycles, picking up and rushing the injured to hospitals.

By noon the Jamaat on its own had organised milk for a few hundred babies, and food for over 3,000 survivors. By evening, about 3,000 Muslim men were tending to over 10,000 Hindus and Christians in makeshift camps in the local schools.

A few hundred of the survivors were invited to stay in the masjid, where they still stay. Many more are in the Jamaat’s school, and dozens occupy its office building.

For the last three days, the Jamaat has employed 24 cooks working round the clock to feed about 9,000-odd survivors. Some in the relief camps and others in the five battered villages. The administration provides the rice and milk, and the Jamaat buys the vegetables and everything else on its own. There are about 20,000 men under the Jamaat, and the huge community kitchens that it had been using for its frequent community feasts were immediately turned into relief kitchens.

As the bodies began piling up, Younus asked his men not to hesitate. And, for the last three days, they have been doing what might be unthinkable for many Muslims: carrying bodies on their own shoulders and cremating them. ‘‘To the possible extent, we have been making sure that the Hindu bodies are burnt, and Christians are buried. They should not feel offended in death,’’ Younus reasons.

Younus says he hadn’t slept or eaten well after the tragedy stuck. He has been running around five villages guiding his men, looking after the survivors, making things work.

It was only when the Army moved in yesterday to Pudukuppam, which suffered the heaviest toll, that the Jamaat withdrew from that village. But for the other four, it is still the only solace. ‘‘It’s all God’s will. Inshallah, they will all begin life well in a few weeks,’’ he says.

Younus says none of his over 3,000 men will leave until the survivors are back on their feet. ‘‘We will continue to raise money to feed them for as long as they need. They are welcome to be with us as long as they want,’’ Younus says.

Romair #52 While you are welcome to your views, you are not welcome to twist logic and facts or to make up your own facts. In this case, you falsely claim that I am cheering on the killing of people in Iraq. I assume this twisting of facts (or lying, to put it accurately) comes naturally to you, and is not something you learnt at the PMA. Although I think you have disgraced that army uniform already (as have some better known military officers, I may add) when you broke immigration laws of the US and tried to stay here illegally until forced to leave. All I can say is that there are many honorable men who also once wore the Pakistan Army uniform, and who would never play fast and lose with the facts the way you do (nor, I may add, consider themselves above the law and the constitution of Pakistan as some of the abovementioned better known officers have done).

If you wish to disprove that you are lying, I suggest you cut and paste from that article I wrote before the Iraq war or anywhere else I have ever written and show exactly where I am cheering the killing of people.

some facts from this website :

some numbers

Hats off for the American people :

( from the same website : cut and paste )

However, even though the charts above do show U.S. aid to be poor (in percentage terms) compared to the rest, the generosity of the people of America is far more impressive than their government. As discussed further below, the government spending has tied agendas that has often been detrimental to the recipient. Private aid/donation in contrast has been through charity on individual people and organizations though this of course can be weighted to certain interests and areas. Nonetheless, it is interesting to note for example, per latest estimates, Americans privately give at least $34 billion overseas -- more than three times U.S. official foreign aid of $10 billion:

International giving by U.S. foundations totals $1.5 billion per year
Charitable giving by U.S. businesses now comes to at least $2.8 billion annually
American NGOs gave over $6.6 billion in grants, goods and volunteers.
Religious overseas ministries contribute $3.4 billion, including health care, literacy training, relief and development.
$1.3 billion by U.S. colleges are given in scholarships to foreign students
Personal remittances from the U.S. to developing countries came to $18 billion in 2000
Source: Dr. Carol Aderman, Aid and Comfort, Tech Central

I agree with Raka. I think US should stop funding the Pakistani gov`t and basically the economy, which is being cannibalized by the generalissmos for new planes and missiles and instead divert the $3B or so earmarked over the next few years towards the relief effort. That will be the right thing to do indeed.

Interesting affect on world markets:

``Booming markets shed few tears
By James Arnold
BBC News business reporter

Clearing up after disasters can help stimulate an economy
The market, former British government minister Michael Heseltine once said, has no morality.

And indeed, stock exchange traders around Asia have wasted little time regretting the victims of this week`s disaster.

Stock markets in Indonesia and India have hit all-time highs this week; even in Sri Lanka, more comprehensively affected, the main index has lost only 5% since the waves hit.

Bigger markets further afield have barely twitched. The MSCI World share index, a measure of global stock market performance, hit its highest level this week since early 2001; the BBC Global 30 has risen by 3% in the past week.

And this at a time when - all sentiment aside - insurance costs are already estimated in the tens of billions of dollars, and countries around the region are looking at trimming their growth forecasts.

Miscounting the cost

In fact, the markets are being perfectly rational.

For a start, the notional insurance cost of the disaster will have little bearing on corporate bottom lines.

The overwhelming majority of the victims will have had no insurance: according to estimates from India, only one-quarter of those affected there were wealthy enough to afford insurance, and only one-quarter of that group at most will have taken out policies. Indonesia is likely to have even lower take-up rates.

And where insurance certainly is in place - in, for example, the many tourist complexes affected - the costs will be borne in far-away corners of the global reinsurance market, rather than landing locally.

Different strokes

Second, stock markets do not trade the sort of companies likely to have been damaged.

Most of the biggest companies traded on the soaring Jakarta Stock Exchange are in oil, technology and financial services - none of which have been hit by the flooding. Tourist businesses, the most likely sufferers, are either foreign-owned or too small to have their shares listed.

Those that are listed have suffered: Confifi Hotel Holdings, a small Sri Lankan tourism firm, has halved in value this week.`` (www.bbc.co.uk)