Myths about the Golden Age of Islam

Learn some history first dude.

ylh about myth number 2...you are wrong..they were all elected in the same way..Hazrat Abu Bakr was chosen by the 10 close companions of the Holy Propthet(pbuh) who He said were `jannaty`...Then Hazrat Umer was not only chosen by Hazrat Abu Bakr but again by the companions...Hazrat Abu Bakr was just the first one to vote for him...Hazrat Usman was elected by the remaining close companions...and as for Hazrat Ali`s case i am not sure and do not wish to make a comment about something i am not sure on...but he was either elected by the remaining companions or because he was one of the closest companions of The Holy Prophet(pbuh) and some of the 10 companions had voted for him in the past he was elected...but i will re-check and let you know

Re: # 306
La-deenyat is Irriligiosity. Secularism is Zindiqyat or Mazdikiyat. One should always be suspicious about english words ending in -ism. Like the word ``synderome`` it is a fancy concept of saying `` I don`t really know what the hell I,m talking about`` and at the same time look very harvardish and ``respectable``

razijaffery: 305

you are a most welcome addition here. We need more & more proud and avowed muslims here to counter murtid, kaafirs, zindiques seeking respectability here.

In reply to 305

The urdu term for secularism is `la-deeniyat` which does not mean atheism. It simply means `non religious`.

I am curious to know if Mr. Hamdani is familiar with the cultural origins of secularism as a term and political construct. Where did this term come from? Just want to highight that in the three major Islamic languages, namely Arabic, Persian and Urdu the word secularism can either be just transliterated - as is done in the popular media- or if one intends to be more precise, would translate it as atheism. So either one is religious or one is atheist in the Islamic worldview (or it seems to be that way).

I think a defense of secularism or a case made for it need far more substance than what has been offered here.

ShoreSahib

The Hadees about blasphemy which I reproduced in my post at 13 is from the Compilation of Sunnan Abudawud which is included in `Suha Sitta`, the six authentic compilations of ahadees according to the Sunni sect and, I presume, is the main bases for the controversial Blasphemy Law in Pakistan. You believe only in Non-hadees macro here-say history but do not believe in Hadees which is recorded micro History and considered authentic by `Sawade Aazam`. For your information even Quran was compiled in a book form much later. You are least concerned with hadees like the one I quoted perhaps because you are not a Paky, subject to the BL, a sword hanging on the head of every Pakistani.

And now see what the Faqeeh say about killing of human beings for the sake of religion.

The Muslim apologist writers often quote a verse of Quran, as usual, out of context, to support their contention that Islam forbids terrorism involving killing of innocent human beings. I quote the full verse 5/32 below: -

“For that cause (murder of a son of Adam by his brother) We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being (Nafsa) for other than manslaughter (?) or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), but afterwards lo! Many of them became prodigals in the earth. (Translation by Pickthall).

In the first place, as is obvious from the above quotation, the decree was meant expressly for of the children Israel and as such why should the non-Israeli Muslims consider it binding on them. Secondly, for the Muslims the Quran does allow, albeit under certain conditions, the killing of human beings if they are considered to be ‘Kafirs, Blasphemers, Zideeq, etc.’ . And what about the sectarian ‘Fatwas’ galore according to which some sects declare members of some other sects as kafirs, murtad, wajibulqatl and what not. And if the poor human being escapes all these fatwas there is the all pervading fatwa of branding one a‘Zindeeq’ (a person who professes to be a Muslim but conceals his kufr). And my God! What name will you give to the killing of a human being in compliance with the fatwa of Imam Abu Hanifa who says, “A Zindeeq should be killed secretly whenever opportunity comes to hand as his ‘Toubah’ (repentance) is not acceptable. And Imam Malik says, Zindeeqs shall be killed and they would not be called upon to repent (to submit touba). (Ahkaamul Quran liljasas 286 J 2)

My dear ShoreSahib what will you call all these edicts exhorting killing of human beings if not religious terrorism. Terrorism may have no religion but sectarian religion does have terrorism as it is sin qua non-for its existence and struggle for dominance.

PM#302
That is a good manly answer. ``see if I care`` ... You will start caring very soon, I will promise you.

as far as quoting Jinnah out of context, feel free to quote Jinnah within context to counter my arguments (I doubt if you can). After Wolpert, YLH`s is your next expert!! So that is ``more than one book you read``. I am impressed.

Yes bandwidth is free and this is ciberspace. You may come quickly throw 8 posts in a sequence and than hide behind ``I have no time`` or read ``wolpert or YLH``...

re. friend: ``Kindly recognize that by making ``below the belt`` comments, you have opened your self to similar ``below the belt`` comments. I wont be surprised if you also start getting same differential treatment as our official CRIEP certifier is getting.``

See if I care. Jeez, it`s a freakin` cyber board. Take what you like of the arguments and posters themselves and ignore what you don`t.

Your point that I need to read more on Gandhi`s political influence is taken under advisement.

However, frankly, your quoting Jinnah out of context (read YLH`s many articles and explanations for something approaching a through contextualization of Jinnah`s statements) does nothing to better fit the moniker `megalomaniac` to Jinnah. But keep trying if you`d like to. Bandwidth is free.

mohar
hmm.. actually, you DO need to get a life.. I mean one in which you don`t have pretensions of being able to teach anybody ANYTHING!

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#298 by PM
//...Shall we get back to living our lives now?....//

Get BACK to live your life?? Sure!!! But why did you stop living your life in the first place ;) ?

Anyway - take note of the advices from Mr. ``friend``. He seems to be even a better educator than me - so do read his very informative posts. So that, next time you come to chowk - you don`t regurgitate your ridiculous theories about ``jinnah`s constitutional arguments`` and ``gandhi`s experiments with naked grand-daughters``?

Good bye.

PM # various
Kindly recognize that by making ``below the belt`` comments, you have opened your self to similar ``below the belt`` comments. I wont be surprised if you also start getting same differential treatment as our official CRIEP certifier is getting.

You may need to read few more book to know that Gandhi`s effect was ``politically readily visible`` in addition to being profound. Go search for ``punch Gandhi Africa`` on Google.

Let me take you to dictionary definition of Megalomania

meg·a·lo·ma·ni·a ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mg-l-mn-, -mny)
n.
1. A psychopathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence.
2. An obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions.

Now consider
1. A person making an absolute statement about incompatibility between two nations of hindus and muslims,
2. leading a mass movement for 7 years based on that statement,
3. On one fine day declaring that, sorry Hindus and Pakistai can live together, let us have a secullar state!
4. And after three days declaring again that Dear Muslims, it is your independence

Anyone playing with people`s psychology and believe that he will succeed has to be dilusional about his power.

Gee I`m touched, mohar!
Shall we get back to living our lives now?

PM
//....by the sheer bandwidth you devote to me...//

And you are worth it, believe me. I don`t accept just anybody as a student for re-education :) And the ``comic relief`` you are experiencing right now is part of the process - it makes re-education easier to go thru.

Friend
//...Patrick Massih, I thought you were old enough to stay away from ``experiments with his naked granddaughters``...//

Patrick Massih is a good boy. It`s just that he is a little mis-guided at this point. But if you consider the social, cultural and educational environment he grew-up in, that`s par the course. I mean - when you get a chance, just glance thru the textbooks that they teach in pakiland. You would perfectly understand why Patrick Massih says what he says.

But fortunately this condition is reversible to some extent. With rigorous re-education Patrick Massih can be made to grow up.

mohar #various:
I`m flattered, i must say, by the sheer bandwidth you devote to me. Gee, i must have you riled up real good!!

For the record, using the constitution and law (and appealing to the others` sense of jsutice) to argue for a sseperate state is not the same as fighthing for independence. But somthing tells me you`re not very big on even not-so-suble distinctions anyway.

But keep at it anyways.. you provide comic relief if nothing else. ;P

friend:
I agree ``experiment with naked granddaughters`` was below the belt.
But somtimes its the only way to rebut idiocy. I don`t think Gandhiji`s image can be soiled anyway.