Myths about the Golden Age of Islam

Mannyd...

Only a person completely devoid of history will try and brand Jinnah with the same brush ...and that is what you Indians do.

You clearly have no shame... or sense of integrity.

PM 183 and 184:

`` Now, I`m wondering wherer mannyd, or for that matter, veeresh, read their history? I mean, I can`t imagine that their history books lie to the extent of suggesting that there was actually a nation state / country (in the sense being used now) called ``India`` pre-Colonial times, or for that matter, even during.``

Please go back and read my comments again, pasted below for your convenience. Did I say anything about what the country `India`, Tindia` or Bhindia` was called and when. I read history books approved and santized by Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad as the first education minister and on my own from the UC library system. What does that have to do with HP`s children and Pakistan`s moral obligation to take them back and let them have the Chaubara HP`s dad built in Karachi, if HP and his wife are slaughtered by David Duke`s knights?

If Mr. and Mrs. HP have paid off the mortgage on their US house , does KKK USA of future have any obligation to honor the children`s claim to HP private peoperty even if they lived in Pakistan?

``Please grow up and accept that TWO countries (as we know them) were born on the cusp of 14/15 August 1947; not one! ``

I am a grown-up , thank you very much. I also already knew the startling revealation that you pronounced with such fanfare and agree fully.

Nazi Germany and Poland were also two nations, not one on the cusp of WWII. It is also a fact that Nazi Germany looted, killed, brutalized the jews. Germay is paying reparations to the future generation of survivors, even if they do not live there, can not speak German and have no idea of German culture.

The swiss banks are also paying the money deposited by the Nazis to the survivors with interest.

The Japanese have also apologised to the Chinese for the rape of Nanking and possibly also paid some damages.

Here comes the first claim on behalf of all the Pakistanis who were stripped of their lives, honor and Private properties just because they were Hindus or Sikhs. The private land holdings were 6.4 million acres of prime fertile irrigated land. AT about 5000 dollars per acre, the damages are 3 billion dollars. Since it is a large sum for even a rich couintry like Pakistan, some kind of installment plan can be worked out. An apology to Pardesi, Dost-Mitter, Kaura Sach, Jang and Veeesh is the very minimum Latifahs can issue instead of posting Jinnah`s speach of Aug. 11. Of course Tahmed32 and others like him deserve the same treatment from India.

tahmed32 #190:

``I dont have two sets of principles - one for Pakistan, one for India.``

I think you do. For the killing of half million Hindus/Sikhs you talk about criminals and never about Jinnah or his Muslim Leauge. In case of Gujrat you have no hesitation in blaming Narendra Modi personally, RSS, BJP or VHP without an iota of proof.

amit #162 I agree with your post.And I also agree with the post you are rebutting.When after affirmative action,scheduled castes n tribes are still dispropostionately represented among the poor; for muslims without affirmative action, a few decades is not much in the history of a country.
When we look at the income distributions across the country,it is more explained by geographic indicators. Muslims in the south are better off than Muslims in the east and the north.The low economic status of muslims is well established, though. And this is attributed to not having ownership of assets, poor educational attainment and thereby engaging in non skilled or semi skilled labour, as well as the presence of muslims in the economically backward areas of the country like UP etc.
There are other reasons as well. The average age of a muslim girl at the time of marriage nationwide is about 16 years. In the rural north, one can imagine how low it would be.
Then there is discrimination in some communally sensitive areas. I read an article long ago about how it is difficult to rent a house in Bombay if you are a Muslim.
Among political reasons, there is a political need for the muslim exclusionist leaders and p secs like congress to continue talking about identity and focusing on madarsahs and personal law etc.
Point is, the problem of underrepresentation of muslims is not monolithic.It should not be viewed as so.

addition to previous reply:

``P.S. Another interesting fact: Pakistan has the second highest number of Shias (30 million or so) of any country in the world. More than twice as many as their are in Iraq. `

So if Pakistanis are hell-bent on raising the % of minorities in Pakistan, all they have to do is to declare the Shias to be non-Muslims (as Naqshbandi and Urstruly have done). That would make the % of minorities skyrocket in Pakistan. 1/4th of the country would become a religious minority.

Another interesting fact (though not scientifically researched): The most successful community of any kind (Muslim or non) in Pakistan, at the individual level, has to be the Parsis. There is only a tiny number of them, yet they all seem to be in top positions. Big businessmen, judges, writers, authors, doctors etc. I have never met a poor Pakistani Parsi. Similarly, I read somewhere that 15% of the Bombay Stock Exchange market cap in India is owned by Parsis, as well...............

The official figures of Pakistani population demographics are generally represented as follows, on most sites:

Sunnis 76% or so, Shias 20% or so, Minorities 3-4% or so.

- I read somewhere that 6% of Lahore is Christian. Which anecdotal personal evidence would seem to point to also. The total % of minorities, much less Christians, cannot be 15%. That is impossible. That would mean 3 out of every 20 people in Pakistan, one would meet, would be a Christian (or minority). At the same time, my unscientific guess would be that minorities are under-represented in the surveys, as many of them belong to poorer classes, so perhaps the minority figure is around 5%.

- According to various websites, the number of Christians in India is between 25-30 million. This means 2.5% of India is Christian. This is pretty much identical to the % of Christians in Pakistan, which would be around 2.5 % also (perhaps somewhat higher). So I am not sure what all the fuss is about, trying to prove one country has more than the other. They have roughly the same.

- Christians in Pakistan have done well in three professions that I know of:

They have done well in the military, and are highly respected in the military. Extremely well, if you look at their war record, which, by a huge margin, oustrips that of any other Pakistani community (including Pakistani Muslims). As an example, there were six Christian fighter pilots in the 65 war. Five of them received Sitar-e-Jurat, which is the higheest gallantry award given to a living pilot. An unbelievably high %. They were:

Gp. Capt. Eric Hall (the seniormost officer in the whole Air Force to receive Sitar-e-Jurat)
Wg. Cdr. Nazir Latif (the third seniormost officer in the Air Force to receive Sitar-e-Jurat)
Sqn. Ldr. Leslie Middlecoat
Flt. Lt. Cecil Chaudhry
Flt. Lt. William Harvey

There are only two officers in the history of the PAF who have received two Sitar-e-Jurats. One of the them is the world famous M.M. Alam, in 65 war, who set a world record by shooting down five indian airplanes in less than 30 seconds. The second one is Leslie Middlecoat (Christian) who received another Sitar-e-Jurat in the 71 war (to add to the one in the 65 war) when he died in action. Thus becoming the only officer in the PAF history to get a Sitar-e-Jurat in both wars.

There was also a Christian Air Vice Marshall who was the acting Chief of Air Staff, for a while.

The other two professions where Christians have done well in Pakistan, that I know of, are education and arts. The best and most sought after high schools, in Pakistan are all Christian missionary schools. Even some of the leading members of MMA send their kids to these schools, from what I have heard. And there are quite a few in movies and singing etc. (not MMA leaders, but Christians)....

The current (and probably future) Captain of the Pakistan cricket team is a Lahori Christian.

At an anecdotal level, if we look at the interactions on this site, there maybe 50 or so regular Pakistani interactors. Maybe more. Out of these, there are three Christians - PM, Ijaz_gul, ana - of Pakistani origin who are regular interactors. There used to be a Parsi guy named Behram (?). There are two Ahmedis, who are or not minorities, depending on how one views Ahmedis - sattar2 and xenib (?). No Pakistani Hindu interactors.

P.S. Another interesting fact: Pakistan has the second highest number of Shias (30 million or so) of any country in the world. More than twice as many as their are in Iraq.

anilkv #186 Thanks for an informative post, and points to a dilemma under the current constitutional structure in India that I wasnt aware of. Your last sentence points to what I think is another problem - the lack of political pressure to act against the criminals in Gujerat. This lack of political pressure represents, I think, a general apathy in the Indian public to the appalling events in Gujerat.

That apathy is similar to that in Pakistan where, e.g., I have never seen any serious public move to apprehend those who committed atrocities on hindus and sikhs in 1947 (and by now the criminals are probably mostly dead anyway) or in 1971. In the US, by contrast, it took just one low level armyman to blow the whistle on abu ghraib and for the newspapers to make it a front page issue. That, I think, is the difference between a politically mature public and one that is still struggling to move out of a primitive, tribal mentality that places religious or ethnic affiliations above what is morally right or wrong.

arjun/avenger alias gujjubania aka shamsul/gandiv: All three of you make the same point (phrased in the classy manner I have come to expect of you), and my comment is the same - Read my earlier posts on chowk and you will see that unlike you I dont have any interest in hiding crimes committed in the name of Pakistan or Islam or anything: in 1971, in 1947, or in Kashmir in recent years (e.g. the killing of innocent villagers by terrorists in the name of kashmiri freedom).

I dont have two sets of principles - one for Pakistan, one for India. I understand this may be a difficult concept for the three of you to grasp - but try doing so. Or else you may get reincarnated as three blind mice next time around.

arrite, need to give you folks some basic politics lesson here. state rights blah-blah-blah. the facts are simpler .. that gujrath riots, although considered nasty by rest of the indians, political parties guaged the public mood would be against overthrowing of the state govt. i mean, sonia and other `secular` parties could have organised a parliamentary log-jam, daily bandhs to bring the govt down, and with TDP seeing the writing on the wall, modi would have been sacked. none of this happened inspite of glaring lights of media coverage. so nothing sacred about state rights, most parties read the riots as somewhat inevitable considering Godhra train burning, and therefore would not consider it to be politically wise to go full-press. now, the supreme court and HRC, and election commission did what they could, being relatively independent. but dissolving the govt needs some more strong political capital (all deaths notwithstanding).

now bring on the moral indignation..

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re #186 by anilkv

``but vajpayee did not do it at that time due to various pressures and politics, one of the blots on his career. ``

He should have, according to his own policy of ``raj dharma``. But the polarisation between the communities was/is(?) so high that BJP had no problem coming up with a majority in the assembly elections. Also during 2004 Lok Sabha elections Gujarat Congress stayed away from speaking about Godhra riots.

re. veeresh: ``So where are all [the Christians] hidden then, why don`t we see their names in Pakistani life? What is their share of representation in the Civil services, the Armed Forces, the media, the entertainment industry?
and then this... ?!?
(And please don`t give us Perwani, Kaneria, Anil Dalpat & Bhandara, OK?)

Trust me, veeresh, they`re well represented in the armed forces (lower cadres mostly, thuough I could provide you with the names of the seven Christian recepients of the highest or second-highest military awards)

The entertainment (particularly fashion) industry is also not without a significant number of Christians-- possibly overrepresented, in fact. Only, they won`t have names like Patrick or John, which you`d recognize readily as Christian. (Manto, isn`t Mikhaal Hussain an Xian, btw?)

Manto`s estimate on Chritian population is probably off the mark by a factor of two, Pak Chritian Congress claims notwithstanding, but living in Lahore one can be forgiven for thinking that it`s as high as that! Last time I visited, the place was swarming with `em!

``Prophet tahmed(peace be unto your self-righteous rear): How many Paki armymen went to jail for killing hundreds of thousands of bangladeshis?

Its a serious charge , so lets be more specific.


Prophet tahmed (peace be unto your self-righteous rear): How many Pakistani army`men` went to jail for killing 3 million of their then fellow countrymen , the East Pakistanis ?

#178

the inferiority complex of all indians rears its ugly head again!! hahaha. i dont need to have sexual fantasies of less than beautiful indians walking around naked while its government plots against minorities, its army rapes kashmiris, its crazed priests ravage holy sites, and criminals like narendra modi are swept back into office. `knock, knock. who`s there? inferiority complex. come in, i`m indian!! `

in response to HP`s comment about claims to land of one`s birth, mannyd #163 writes:
``Your children will be US citizens of Pakistani origin but still have a moral and ethical claim to go back to Pakistan because they were not consulted before you decided to give them birth here.``

Now, I`m wondering wherer mannyd, or for that matter, veeresh, read their history? I mean, I can`t imagine that their history books lie to the extent of suggesting that there was actually a nation state / country (in the sense being used now) called ``India`` pre-Colonial times, or for that matter, even during.

Please grow up and accept that TWO countries (as we know them) were born on the cusp of 14/15 August 1947; not one!

in response to HP`s comment about claims to land of one`s birth, mannyd #163 writes:
``Your children will be US citizens of Pakistani origin but still have a moral and ethical claim to go back to Pakistan because they were not consulted before you decided to give them birth here.``

Now, I`m wondering wherer mannyd, or for that matter, veeresh, read their history? I mean, I can`t imagine that their history books lie to the extent of suggesting that there was actually a nation state / country (in the sense being used now) called ``India`` pre-Colonial times, or for that matter, even during.

Please grow up and accept that TWO countries (as we know them) were born on the cusp of 14/15 August 1947; not one!