Myths about the Golden Age of Islam

#165
wow, you must have studied at harvard!! you`re so bright! tell me where, oh wise one, i stated that pakistan controlled siachen? my only contention, albeit implied, was that it was a disputed territory, and i never refuted that certain parts of it are held by india. so there, good for you! funny how you belittled the strategic point of kargil under pakistani control as diddly squat. why then is there a hue and cry about it in the indian press? scared to admit the truth? pakistan out strategized india in kargil, and it was hardly indian army pressure that forced pakistan to withdraw. it was only american intervention that saved indias rear from an even nastier whooping. now go stare at your latest issue of playboy. JAY HANUMAN RAM PRASAD KRISHNA GOPI!!! haha..

tahmed #172, #173, #174

Well we are getting into policies now. According to indian constitution, policing and investigation is strictly a state subject. There are no federal crimes. The center can interfere only through the state. Even when the central forces are stationed in a state to assist police like in riot times, they only police the streets, but do not do any investigation. Most importantly, the request for central forces has to originate with the civilian district administration and routed through the state govt to the home and defense ministries. The district administration cannot bypass or route-around the state. One of the reasons why the Indian army took long to police gujarat is this request did not originate. The state police is completely under the thumb of the CM and has no autonomy to go against the ruling govt. the big flaw in the indian system waiting to be rectified, hopefully one day by the supreme court. This need didn`t arise till end of indira`s rule, because the center dismissed the state govt. Now that it can`t happen, they have to figure out the other options. A good lesson in systemic evolution and interference.

Considering this, and what i said before, the chief ministers have turned their states into personal little kingdoms. If the CM is good, the state is fortunate, else like in gujarat, bihar and bengal the people suffer and endure, or just move out. Ironically it was LKAdvani who was campaigning for federal crimes list in the last govt to include terrorism, severe financial frauds, rioting etc. But he could not convince the states to relinquish.
There is a proposal of appointing an ombudsman with powers to investigate senior govt officials including PMs and CMs. It has not gone through yet.
Sending army against the state is recipe for disaster and will be done probably if the state goes against the court. The easier way is to dismiss the state govt now and worry about parliamentary approval later. but vajpayee did not do it at that time due to various pressures and politics, one of the blots on his career.

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#171 by Tahmed,

You have chosen to ignore what I said, and to simply repeat what I have already shown to be absurd. I have nothing more to add.

Owww, I am overwhelmed by your condescending generosity!
BTW why did you threw Modi and Advani in the mix while discussing the myths of golden age?

If Modi goverment has blood on its hand, then the whole Paki army and ISI has blood all over its soul by ethnic cleansing in Kashmir supported by your ``morally supportive`` chanda boxes. And yeah, it`s Gujarat and not Gujerat.

BTW did ever worry about the ``rights of individuals`` as it applies to displaced Kashmiri pundits? Or it`s just the ummah that deserves it.

``we have done didley squat to integrate Kashmir with India. ``

Amit...what to do ? Given a choice between the kafeers and the ummah , who do you think will your beloved Kashmiris choose ? I say , lets kill all them all. Problem solved. (The Ghori-Ghaznavi method - success guaranteed.)

Of course , needless to say , the young and beautiful Kashmiri women will be spared. They can be of tremendous use to our sex starved males in Haryana and Punjab - where the female sex ratios have declined alarmingly. What do you say ?

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Re:avenger

Cool down, man!! You will pop an artery on chowk. Our Kashmir policies have been a joke for the past 60 years. Except for stationing huge number of troops, we have done didley squat to integrate Kashmir with India. The whole jihad thing started in 1989. Before that, we had ample opportunity to completely integrate Kashmir just like any other state in India and our record was a miserable failure. Forget about industrialization, we have not even managed to lay out a railway line that goes into Kashmir valley. Even today it is easier to access Kashmir from Pakistan side rather than India!! The borders including the LOC were unprotected until this year!! It was only a couple of years back that we held the first free elections. How many Kashmiris ever leave Kashmir to live, study or work outside Kashmir? Isn`t it quite pathetic if you compare with other parts of India?

Our enemy in Kashmir is not the Kashmir muslims but the jehadis who form a small fraction of the population. The jehadis have terrorised the pandits and the muslims as well. Hence, they should be shown no mercy. But we got to win over the ordinary Kashmiris and make them stakeholders in India.

#157 by taqat-e-parvaaz on January 5, 2005 11:27pm PT

[the fact on siachen is that its an issue that could have been resolved many years ago, but india refuses to solve it, for some odd reason.]

Funny how you say Pakistan controls Siachen and then expect India to solve it. Hahaha!

FYI, Kargil belonged to Pakiland till 1971, so Pakistan holding a few peaks means diddly squat. But then, Pakis have always been satisfied with the few crumbs India allows them to get away with, because they know they cannot ask for more.

[its been a nightmare for india to even consider solving this issue, despite the fact that millions of indians go naked on the streets of calcutta and in other cities (`india shining` huh).]

Millions of Indians going naked isn`t exactly Pakistan`s problem and Pakiland isn`t exactly prospering, so why are you bothered about us? If anything, you must worry about the fate of Pakis whose every move is being watched by the FBI and CIA. Every year, more and more Pakis are slipping underthe poverty line, so very soon Karachi may best Kolkata.

[if anything, indian policy has backfired strategically.]

Not exactly, India`s economy is booming and growing by leaps and bounds. If anything, it is Pakistan`s policies, every single one of them, that has backfired. First, illusions of strategic depth were shattered. Next, the Taliban U-turn. Then, the Kashmir Jihad was wound up. So much for Paki strategy!

[india spends the same amount in one day that pakistan spends in one month in siachen.]

The only difference is, India can easily afford to spend the amount that Pakiland spends in 1 month, while Pakiland struggles to spend 1/30th of what India does.

[so back off it.]

Why don`t you ask your brave SSG Commandos to try and take back Siachen? Oh wait, Pakistan already controls Siachen. Hahahaha!!!!!

Veeresh...

Now you`ve completely lost your mind.

Just apologize for your bad behavior instead of coming up with excuses....

#153 ,

Taqat-e-Parvez...

Obviously simple sarcasm is wasted on a deluded fool like you....

Regarding your assertion that India spends more in a day on Siachen than Pakistan spends in a month , even if true , that really is no big deal. India is lot richer than Pakistan. India has 11 times the economy of Pakistan and only spends 2.5% of its GDP on defence - unlike Pakistan which spends 8-9% of its GDP on defence.....

Regarding your comment about poverty in India , it is nothing like what it is in Pakistan. According to the UNDP and the World Bank , 36% of Pakistan`s population lives in extreme poverty , i.e. , below the poverty line. So concentration of poverty is much higher in Pakistan than in India - where 23% of the population lives below poverty.

HP is talking out of his ar$e as usual. 23% of Indians live in extreme poverty...not 70%. Also , poverty in India decreases by 1% every year since the economy was opened up in 1991. So we have already seen a reduction in below poverty line population in India from as high as 41% of the population in 1990 to the present 23%.

Which is particularly amazing as the population has increased by 20% in the same period - so reduction in poverty is happeing in INdia inspite of corresponding increase in population.. And at this rate this should go down further to 10% by 2015. This is a fascinating story that the likes of HP have missed in their hatred for India - 20 million people in India rising out of poverty every year. This is unprecented in the history of the world.

HP should be more concerned about Pakistan where 36% of the population lives below poverty line and increasing every year.

The measure of how far India has come can be gathered by the sale of mobile phones in India. India has the world`s fastest growing market for mobile phones. 55 million mobile phones have been sold in India already - which is extraordinary given that mobile phones were introduced in India only in the year 2000. And it is estimated that 50 million more willl be sold in the next 2-3 years.

#159 by HP

[95% of Indian politicians are corrupt.
95% of the judiciary is corrupt.
95% of the police and other Law enforcements are corrupt to the core.
95% of the population is communal.
95% District Administrations are corrupt.
70% of the country is extremely poor.
70% of the population still lives in villages with out basic civic amenities.
80% of the population still uses animal driven mode of transportation]

Just where do you get your figures from? The cardinal rule when you toss about figures is to at least cite a source. Otherwise, where is the credibility?

#159 by HP

If Indians in general are more corrupt as per your figures, why is India (90th) rated higher than Pakistan (129th) (the highest ranked country is the least corrupt) on the Corruption Perception Index (CPI) 2004?

Gandiv: You have chosen to ignore what I said, and to simply repeat what I have already shown to be absurd. I have nothing more to add.

rsridhar #145 After struggling with Gandiv, it is refreshing to read your acknowledgement of the problems in Gujerat. Despite Gujerat, I am sure that democracy will continue to gain strength over time in India, and will thus serve as a strong positive influence (through example) in the political development of Pakistan as well.

It is good to see the Supreme Court taking the case of the Gujerat killings out of Gujerat state courts, although I agree that one should not hold too much hope that justice will be done in any timely manner (and as they say, justice delayed is justice denied). But at least, things moved in the right direction.

This is actually a somewhat similar situation in the US back in 1957: The Arizona government refused to implement a Supreme Court order for school desegregation (in the landmark Brown vs. Topeka Board of Education decision of 1954), and the state government called in the Arizona National Guard to prevent black students from attending school. In response, President Eisenhower sent in the 101st airborne troops who faced of the state troops and escorted the black students to school.

While the situation in Gujerat is basically much worse - people have been killed in the thousands for the crime of being of the wrong religion - I think the principle is the same: where the state government oppresses minorities, the national government must step is - with national armed forces if necessary.