Myths about the Golden Age of Islam

HP : Any Indian talking about minorities in Pakistan must be totally delusional.

Of course. Delusional enough to have a non-hindu prime minister , super prime minister (Madam Sonia) , president , general etc. etc.

Also , in your opinion , 2000 people belonging to minority communities are killed in India every year on an average.

If true , then 114,500 Indians belonging to the minority community have been killed in India ever since India became free in 1947.

Which really is pathetic compared to Pakistanis , who famously killed 3 million of their then fellow countrymen , the bengalis , in the span of a few months in the year 1971....

No wonder the population of minorites in India increases all the time while in Pakistan minorities are heading for extinction....

---

Message for Manto : It does not matter what Punjab Christian Congress says or Jinnah Secularist Society of Lahore and Pind has to say....

Here are the facts :

Pakistan : Muslim 97% (Sunni 77%, Shi`a 20%), Christian, Hindu, and other 3%

Gosh man...you couldn`t do a simple google search and check out the facts before painting the town red with whatever the Punjab Christian Conference spat out ? How stupid are you ?

amit #141

`` Irrespective of our impulse to argue with Pakistanis, we have to admit that muslims in India are economically trailing other communities. So it is unlikely that their standard of living is better than the standard of living of Pakistanis. We can come up with many explanations, but that cannot change the reality. At least, not yet!! Having said that, India is certainly moving towards a much stronger secular ethos, as shown by the ouster of the BJP government both at the center and in the state governments. The top positions in India like Prime Minister, President, Army Chief are being held by non-hindus. So we have a lot to be proud of and we are certainly not a communal nation. As we make rapid economic progress, it is inevitable that muslims will improve their standard of living in India and hopefully surpass the Pakistanis some day!! Now that is a competition, that both India and Pakistan should willingly undertake!! ``

Muslims in India are backward because
1. More of them live in backward parts - UP, Bihar
2. Muslim elite fled to Pakistan. They have not been completely replaced.
3. Muslims are more resistant to change - a hangover from colonial times. They trailed Hindus in pre-independence days.
4. Muslims have suffered from the license raj. The license raj hurts the poor and backward groups even more.
5. Communal riots like Gujarat, Bhiwandi have an impact on the economic being of Muslims in local communities.
6. Lower middle class Muslims have a seige mentality. They need to control their women. They take no economic risks. They stay in their own ghettos.

I could list dozens of reasons .......

People and communities are responsible for their own destiny. The fact that most of the IT jobs are in the South reflect the efforts of the local state governments. The fact that certain communities and castes are well represented in the IT profession reflect the efforts of those groups. There is only so much the Central government and other communities are going to do for you. If Muslims stopped worrying about Shariat, personal laws and other crap and focussed on their well being they would be doing a lot better. Before people blame the BJP they were a non-entity in Indian politics as late as 1989. Babri masjid were non-issues till 1990.

Muslims are more than capable of achieving success. Crescent Engineering College is a successful private institution run by Muslims.

Having said all of the above I have problems with likes of Romair. Does he do a count of how many Punjabis and Baluchis engineers are in USA ?

`` On a side note, just because some taqat-e-joker guy says something offensive to us, does not mean that we should glorify the rape of Kashmiri women, as some posters have done. The rape of women anywhere is a very serious crime and we should be ashamed of it. On top of it, Kashmiris are our fellow citizens. We must never condone such acts against any civilians, let alone our own citizens.``

amen

Amit...rape or the threat of rape was the weapon the Kashmiris used to get rid of any dissidence - the hindu kashmiris. A hugely successful ploy as almost the entire population of Kashmiri Pandits left their homes and jobs in the valley to live like destitutes on the streets of Delhi. Cunning rascals that they are , after the Indian Army moved in and began killing the Ummah supporting wannabe rapists , the women of the Ummah , (Branch Office : Kashmir) proved themselves to be no less useful to the Ummah than the men by accusing the Indian soldiers of raping them in one voice...

So basically , we are dealing with very smart people here. Men using rape to chase away the kafeer civilians and thereby making the valley truely green , and the women crying `RAPE!!!` to ward off counter-attacks by the kafeer soldiers ......

SO , when the Pakistanis accuse Indian Army of commiting attrocities on the poor innocent Kashmiris , killing after torturing `innocent` Kashmiri youth and raping all the young Kashmiri women , BY GOD I hope they are right and are speaking the truth. For my only complaint against the Indian Army is that they are not ruthless enough. No kindness or mercy should be shown to traitors.

Also Amit and others , if the muslims of India are lagging behind the hindus , whose fault is it ? Did the hindus force the muslims to keep their children in smelly madrassahs ? I understand government schools in India are free and accessible to all. Why madrassah and why not government schools ?

Do the Indian muslims hope to land jobs in IBM and Infosys with the help of their madrassah education ?

Dullah..

the link: http://www.chowk.com/show_forum_topic_post_list.cgi?tid=00017293

Veeresh

As you can see I am not interacting with you so please stop addressing posts to me.

amit/141 - if we are talking about typical BIMARU cow-belt Muslims being badly off, I buy that, because the complete BIMARU cow-belt area flourishes on age-old systems of suppression. But I would ask you to consider the rest of India and look at realities there too.

tahmed32/, Yasser, HP, Romair et al.

Once again, here is yet another way of putting across what I have to say, and there is no hype=India, beliittle=Pakistan involved, that is ony your inner insecurities manifesting themselves, OK? Please get that clear.

I forget who first propagated this, but any group of human beings in any nation are like a tossed salad, where all the various small pieces, colours, (religions?), genders, etcetc are still visible there. Maybe some salad oil gives them a common flavour. Variety is the spice of life, and only the insecure seek safety behind commonality.

But in Pakistan, to what I can see, there are otherwise educated people who are trying to propagate the presumption that what should come out of the diverse mix is homogeneous like sausage. Grind everything together, sing ``Ummah Ummah de de, and hey presto, bologna pretending to be plain white steamed rice.

THAT is my original long-standing objection, that you guys have taken what WAS my country and have made it into SAUSAGE.

In addition, there is this continuous drone by Yasser and some other Pakistanis about Jinnah, Kashmir and Ummah, as though these are the copyright of Pakistan. Get a life, all three have passed Pakistan bye.

I mean, let us take another example. Let us for a moment assume that all Pakistani Muslims were given the option of forming a common Muslim Ummah. And the choices were to be:-

a) American Muslim boxer
b) British Muslim singer.
c) Canadian Muslim Government employee.
d) Dutch pale beer drinking shopkeeper.
e) Turkish taxi driver re-settled in germany.
f) Darfur dweller.
g) Pakistani goraa chittaa standing in railway ticket line.
h) Arab watani.
i) Ethiopian runner.
j) Kenyan runner re-pat to Muscat.
k) Iraqi rebel.
l) Iranian tired rebel.
m) Indonesian tsunami victim.

And so on . . . so WHICH one category of common Ummah you think the Pakistanis will be?

You understand I hope?

atif #131 I have a few comments on your post to YLH:

1. you write ``After years of propagating hatred of Islam via his mullah (who he claims hold absolute power in Pakistan) bashing articles, he has now written about the ``myths`` of Golden Age of Islam. ``

This is incorrect - While I dont agree with YLH on everything, I can say that you are factually incorrecting in saying that he has been propagating hatred of Islam (and I have been on chowk more years than you).

By equating mullahs with Islam, you are accepting a de facto priestly class in Islam that you should know is severally condemned in the Quran.

2. you write ``Basically, he is telling us that we don`t have anything to be proud of. Our religion sucks, our civilization sucks, our history sucks. ``

The opposite is true. YLH is in fact very proud of his Pakistani identity as is obvious from reading his posts.

3. you ``Next he will debunk another myth - that Islam is a religion. He will claim, from historical evidence that Islam is really a cult.

It is very unfair of you to make bogus claims like this on what YLH will do next.

4. you say ``He supports those who have broken another ``myth`` in Islam - that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the last prophet. ``

One does not need to agree with the Mirzai philosophy to be disgusted with the manner in which they have been hounded in Pakistan. I once saw jamaatiya students burn the college note books of Ahmedi students at Broome Hostel, Lahore. As a Pakistani and a human being and a muslim, I am still ashamed of the fact that I did not have the guts to do anything about it other than sadly watch. But then, there was just myself (a visitor from outside who had come to help by brother pack now that the hostel was being closed due to riots by jamaatiya students) and 6 of them so there is nothing I could have done. But it is disgraceful of you to pick on YLH because he opposes this hounding of Ahmedis in Pakistan.

5. You write ``Irshad Manji - who has been universally ridiculed for her extremely anti-Islam book, gets a letter of support from Mantolives. ``

I have not read what Irshad Manji has to say, so will accept your accusation that she wrote an ``extremely anti-Islam book``. Even assuming you are right - I will direct your attention to the clear and repeated exhortations in the Quran to all mankind to not engage in arguments over religion. That these are matters between God and the individual.

6. You write ``In Manto`s Pakistan, hijab wearing women are flogged, the bearded men are executed, Salman Rushdie, Irshad Manji and Taslima Nasreen become the ministers of Religious affairs. ``

Has YLH actually said that? Or are you just making it up like some of the stuff above.

7. you write ``He hates the unification of Muslims in any sense (economic, political or even a coordinated foreign policy), yet he drools with glee at the unification of europeans in EU. ``

Do you sense even the faintest movement for the unification of all muslims into one giant political or economic entity - Turkey is bending over backwards hoping to get admitted to the EU. Iranians look down upon Arabs as cultural inferiors. Arabs think in terms of Pan-Arabism, and cant even get that off the ground (remember the failure of the grandly named United Arab Republic that Nasser tried to start up). The Kashmir issue has at best gotten lip service from the Arabs, and at worst BB was flatly told by Saddam Hussein that Kashmir was not his problem. Get real, my friend.

Be proud you are a Pakistani and stop living a pipe-dream. You were born a Pakistani and will die a Pakistani, regardless of what you would like to be.

#135 by Tahmed,

While you start by saying you are not a blind supporter of Modi, you proceed to write exactly like one. That he has not been convicted!!

It`s seems difficult for you to grasp the concept of constitution and law, don`t you? I don`t balme you for that. That aside, what`s your argument against Modi other than jumping on secular band-wagon of hate-modi campaign?

Even if Modi`s only crime was incompetence and not complicity (despite all obvious evidence to the contrary), it would still be a disgrace for a man like him to be voted back in power.

So now you have problem with people of Gujarat who re-elected him? Tomorrow you`ll compain about whole of India, and the non-muslim world the day-after.

All this just beacuse you feel that it`s disgrace? No, the poeple don`t think so, and they don`t give a hoot to your death-wishes. Wonder if you went crestfallen when terrorists like Ishrat and her buddies were gunned down. You need to learn to treat others with grace and use your head when you write, if you`re so sensitive about grace.

Your country has haboured countless terrorists like Masood Azhar and Fazlur Rehmans, leave your ``moral`` support to islamic terrorists in Kashmir and your army`s rape of Bengalis.

Its your jehadi, bash-kafir instinct when you invoked Modi and Advani first, totally out of context instead of the snakes lurking in your home.

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#110

hahaha. you can think what you want about siachen. the pak army will never let that go. i dare you to find one partial source that says that siachen is under direct control of the indian army. every time they`ve tried to pull a stunt, the SSG commandos have whooped your `commandos` back to their respective positions. plus, we already have control of kargil, so you know what little boy, if it makes you happier and more proud to be an indian then go ahead, you can have siachen!! read this and weep. hahahah!!

Fact and fiction on Point 5353

The defence establishment`s response to the controversy over Point 5353 plumbs new depths.

PRAVEEN SWAMI

IN August, news broke that Pakistan holds one of the most important mountain features in the Drass Sector, Point 5353-metres. Since then, there has been a welter of fresh revelations, the most important of them being lawyer and Rajya Sabha MP R.K. Anand` s disclosure that five other positions on the Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC) are held by Pakistan. Anand also made public Army`s internal correspondence on the causes of the debacle over Point 5353. The revelations did not lead to a considered rebuttal, but generated a wave of hostile official polemic, often through pro-establishment journalists. One so-called security affairs expert charged that the revelations were part of a Pakistani intelligence plot to generate a ``divisive debate`` in India. (The ``Blame the ISI game`` again BVICTORY.GIF )

Addressing an audience of businessmen in Mumbai in early August, Union Defence Minister George Fernandes put forward the sole cogent official response to the revelations about Point 5353. ``5353,`` he said, ``is the point over which the LoC goes. The fact i s, our troops had never occupied that. The normal practice among them has been that where the line goes over a peak, then nobody occupies it.`` The Minister then proceeded to assault what he perceived to be irresponsible media organisations, much to the d elight of the assembled Mumbai businesspersons, many of whom have had their own skirmishes with reporters. But an analysis of Fernandes` statement shows not only little concern for fact, but an alarming willingness to use falsehood to ensure that his cho sen team in the defence establishment can continue to be incompetent with impunity.

``5353 is the point over which the LoC goes``

Assertions that the LoC is imprecisely defined on the ground, and that the territorial status of Point 5353 is therefore unclear, have formed the central component of official discourse on the controversy. A few hours spent poring over old newspapers are all that it takes to set the record straight. Sadly, few of the many commentators who have engaged with the revelations made in Frontline and other publications on the status of Point 5353 have seen it fit to make the effort.

During the Kargil war, Pakistan had put forward claims that the LoC was undefined on the ground, and that its territorial contours were imprecise. An irate spokesman of the Union Ministry of External Affairs responded on June 19, 1999. ``The LoC is well d efined and delineated,`` he said, ``and is the very cornerstone of Indo-Pakistan relations.`` Pointing out that detailed co-ordinates of the LoC were given in 19 annexures to the agreement of December 11, 1972, arrived at between Lieutenant-General Abdul Ha mid Khan and Lieutenant-General P.S. Bhagat, the spokesman added that ``so far as the de jure position is concerned, there are no doubts.``

Speaking in New Delhi on June 23, 1999, his first press conference after military operations began in Kargil, Chief of the Army Staff V.P. Malik was even more explicit. ``In today`s display,`` he said after a formal presentation, ``we have also given you details of the LoC; its delineation; how it was delineated.`` ``With marked maps, a military man without a GPS (Global Positioning System) can make an error of a few hundred metres on the ground, but an error of 8 to 9 kilometres is unimaginable.``

No one appeared to be in any doubt about just where Point 5353 was during the Kargil war itself. The Press Trust of India (PTI) put out official responses to Pakistan claims that Point 5353 was on its side of the LoC on July 28, 1999. ``The maps signed by the Indian and Pakistani DGMOs (Directors General of Military Operations) in 1972 clearly indicate that it belongs to India,`` the PTI despatch noted. On July 30, a PTI depatch repeated the assertion in a report on fighting around Point 5353: ``In this sector, Pakistan claims some mountains to be a part of this territory whereas the maps signed between the Directors General of Military Operations in December 1972, are contrary to this claim.``

Maps published in Frontline, and also separate documents made available to the press by Anand, both make clear that Point 5353 is at an aerial distance of almost a kilometre from the LoC on the Indian side. On the ground, that would mean a trek of several kilometres, given the terrain`s savage contours. How what was ``well defined`` and ``well delineated`` only a year ago has now become so confused is a question only the defence establishment`s apologists can answer.

``Where the line goes over a peak, nobody occupies it``

Leaving aside the so far undenied fact that Pakistan is indeed in occupation of Point 5353, this second element of Fernandes` argument raises more than a few interesting issues. Right through the Kargil war, Indian officials made clear that the fight for Point 5353 had been joined. But that fight would have served little purpose had the strategically located peak not fallen inside Indian territory.

Northern Command chief H.M. Khanna announced in Srinagar on July 21, 1999 that while the bulk of the Pakistan intrusion had been vacated, ``some 50 to 70 intruders still held three positions along the LoC in Kargil``. Two days later, The Tribune, citing official reports, noted that ``fierce fighting was on in Batalik and Kaksar sub-sectors as the Indian troops launched operations to evict the intruders from the three pockets they were holding.`` ``Fighting,`` the report noted, ``was under way at Point 5 353 in Drass, Muntho Dhalo and Shangruti Ridge in Batalik, and also at a position in Kaksar.`` These are much the same areas as Anand referred to in his press conference.

Nothing much changed over the next few days. On July 24, The Tribune again reported that ``Pakistani intruders continued to hold their position in the small pockets of intrusion``. The same day, the Asian Age`s special correspondents in New Delhi and Srinagar quoted Union Defence Minister George Fernandes as saying that ``a very few Pakistani soldiers are occupying one point each in Drass. Batalik and Mushkoh.`` ``These points,`` he insisted, ``will be cleared at any time.`` Officials did their best to prove their Minister right, announcing both on July 25 and July 26, 1999 that the last of the intrusions had been cleared.

Fernandes and Lieutenant-General Nirmal Vij, the Director-General of Military Operations (DGMO), were, in fact, being economical with the truth. On July 28, PTI reported that fighting continued in several areas. One soldier was killed in shelling in the Batalik area while another died in the Muntho Dalo area. The Pakistan Army, PTI recorded, ``also launched a counter-attack on Sando Top and Zulu Spur.`` The Zulu Spur forms the junction of ridges from the Mushkoh Valley and the Marpo La area. Most important of all, PTI noted that ``in Mushkoh sub-sector of Drass both sides exchanged small arms fire around Point 5353``. What Indian troops were doing there if the peak is not on the Indian side of the LoC remains a mystery - particularly if, as the Army`s public relations staff insist, the peak is of little strategic significance and poses no real threat to National Highway 1A.

Pakistan, which now denies that it holds any territory on the Indian side of the LoC, clearly understood the gains it had made. On July 26, even as officials in New Delhi announced that the last Pakistani intruder had been evicted from the Indian side of the LoC, the Pakistan Army`s Brigadier Rashid Qureshi made a significant, but little noticed, statement. The Pakistani newspaper Dawn reported that ``contrary to Indian claims, the Pakistan Army is still holding some strategic heights along the Line of Control and can effectively tackle any Indian attack.`` ``We are in a position to target Indian vehicles on the Kargil-Drass road,`` it quoted Qureshi as saying.

But in the triumphal glow provoked by the end of Operation Vijay, news regarding Point 5353 disappeared from the press. No reportage on the fighting in the area appeared after the PTI report of July 28. A similar fate befell operations in the Batalik are a. On July 9, Army spokesperson Bikram Singh announced that ``valiant Gorkha Rifles soldiers, who had recaptured Khalobar and Point 5287, regained point 4821 and Kukerthang``. ``The gallant Bihar regiment,`` he continued, ``took control of the Tharu hills in an overnight operation.`` ``Now,`` he concluded, ``only one or two pockets where the intruders are giving resistance are left to be recaptured.`` Nothing about those pockets, which included the Shangruti feature on the LoC, was heard of again.

``Fact is, our troops had never occupied that``

The argument that Point 5353 was never held by India has been regularly used by the Army public relations apparatus to rebut the charge that operational incompetence and strategic errors led to its occupation by Pakistan during the Kargil war. The claim is, in fact, true. India did not hold Point 5353 before the war broke out. What has not been reported widely is that this statement of fact rebuts nothing, for no one ever claimed that the peak was physically held by India before the war. Indeed, reports that appeared in Frontline and Business Line made quite clear that the peak was not held by either side in the build-up to the conflict.

Point 5353, along with the features around it, was occupied by the Pakistani troops at the start of the Kargil war. When the hostilities ended, the Indian troops had succeeded only in taking back Charlie 6 and Charlier 7, two secondary positions on the M arpo La ridgeline. The Indian troops had also been unable to evict Pakistani soldiers from Point 5240, some 1,200 metres from Point 5353 as the crow flies. Amar Aul, the 56 Brigade Commander in charge of the operations to secure Point 5353, responded by occupying two heights on the Pakistani side of the LoC, 4875 and 4251, just before the ceasefire came into force.

Aul later tried to use these two heights to bring about a territorial exchange. In mid-August 1999, his efforts bore fruit, and both sides committed themselves to leave Points 5353, 5240, 4251 and 4875 unoccupied. Indian and Pakistani troops pulled back to their pre-Kargil position as part of a larger agreement between their respective DGMOs. In October that year, however, the deal broke down. Aul tasked the 16 Grenadiers to take Point 5240 and the 1/3 Gorkha Rifles to occupy Point 5353, choosing to violate the August agreement rather than risk a Pakistani reoccupation of these positions. The operation was mishandled, and when the Pakistani troops detected the Indian presence on 5240, they promptly launched a counter-assault on Point 5353.

Pakistan rapidly consolidated its position on 5353 after the abortive Indian offensive. Concrete bunkers came up on the peak, and a road was constructed to the base of the peak of Benazir Post. And with Point 5353 and its adjoining area now linked by road to Pakistan`s rear headquarters at Gultari, any attack will lead to a full-blown resumption of hostilities. No official from the Army or the Defence Ministry has, until the third week of September, denied this sequence of events.

Nor has a denial been made of significant new revelations made by Anand. Anand made available the correspondence between Captain Navneet Mehta, who led an unsuccessful attack on Peak 5353 in May 1999. The correspondence outlines the errors that led to this debacle. Aul has not been called to account for his actions. Nor has the Army denied or accepted this highly decorated solider`s part in the debacle. Neither have his superiors seen it fit to explain why Pakistan was left in possession of the peak, an d why the subsequent exchange-deal was terminated to India`s evident disadvantage. Most significant, Anand`s claim that Point 5353 was indeed held by India in 1992-1993, successfully cutting off Pakistani supply routes, has not been rebutted.

In the wake of Anand`s intervention on the 5353 debate, General Malik has chosen to distance himself from the entire controversy. At an August 31 press conference, held to inaugurate the Army Wives Welfare Association`s website, Malik said the issue had now entered the ``political domain.`` ``We are going through his statement,`` Malik said. ``We have the answer, but let the government react.`` Coming from an Army chief who allowed his officers to brief the Bharatiya Janata Party on the conduct of the Kargil war, and permitted his soldiers to host a Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh-organised religious function in Leh, the new disdain for politics is interesting.

The worrying lack of answers about Point 5353 is not the only problematical aspect of the affair. Many of the Army`s responses to Point 5353 stories were put out not through attributable statements, for which officials could later be held accountable, but through off-the-record briefings held behind closed doors. In effect, a section of the media allowed itself to be used as the public relations wing of an incompetent defence apparatus. One Calcutta-based daily even apologised for the unpardonable sin o f having failed to censor Anand`s press conference on behalf of the defence establishment.

India`s defence establishment and much of the press have chosen to hide from uncomfortable truth. But the silence does no one any favours, least of all the soldiers who could one day have to pay again with their lives for the failures of the Kargil war.




http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1720/17200340.htm

Re:bbabu#134 and Romair

Irrespective of our impulse to argue with Pakistanis, we have to admit that muslims in India are economically trailing other communities. So it is unlikely that their standard of living is better than the standard of living of Pakistanis. We can come up with many explanations, but that cannot change the reality. At least, not yet!! Having said that, India is certainly moving towards a much stronger secular ethos, as shown by the ouster of the BJP government both at the center and in the state governments. The top positions in India like Prime Minister, President, Army Chief are being held by non-hindus. So we have a lot to be proud of and we are certainly not a communal nation. As we make rapid economic progress, it is inevitable that muslims will improve their standard of living in India and hopefully surpass the Pakistanis some day!! Now that is a competition, that both India and Pakistan should willingly undertake!!

On a side note, just because some taqat-e-joker guy says something offensive to us, does not mean that we should glorify the rape of Kashmiri women, as some posters have done. The rape of women anywhere is a very serious crime and we should be ashamed of it. On top of it, Kashmiris are our fellow citizens. We must never condone such acts against any civilians, let alone our own citizens.

veeresh...

www.pakistanchristiancongress.com

Actually it is quite common to find christians in Lahore`s colleges and universities... the percentage might be higher than 15%... An aside My current boss is a Pakistani christian woman... and really I can`t tell the difference. To my amazement and surprise in the last election, I was only Muslim name on the page...

Now... grow up .

After years of propagating hatred of Islam via his mullah (who he claims hold absolute power in Pakistan) bashing articles, he has now written about the ``myths`` of Golden Age of Islam. Basically, he is telling us that we don`t have anything to be proud of. Our religion sucks, our civilization sucks, our history sucks.

Next he will debunk another myth - that Islam is a religion. He will claim, from historical evidence that Islam is really a cult. And sooner we leave it, the better off we all will be.

He supports those who have broken another ``myth`` in Islam - that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the last prophet.

Irshad Manji - who has been universally ridiculed for her extremely anti-Islam book, gets a letter of support from Mantolives. Its on her webpage. She has been ridiculed by not just Muslims for propogating hatred towards Muslims, and thus putting their lives in danger in West, but by christians and some jewish organizations as well. But she has Manto`s support.

In Manto`s Pakistan, hijab wearing women are flogged, the bearded men are executed, Salman Rushdie, Irshad Manji and Taslima Nasreen become the ministers of Religious affairs.

He hates the unification of Muslims in any sense (economic, political or even a coordinated foreign policy), yet he drools with glee at the unification of europeans in EU.

Manto, it may be a little off topic but after reading your other postings for some time now, a questions is popping up in my mind and have not been able to find the answer on my own. You are obviously the right person to ask it.

You say Jinnah layed out the plan for a democratic Pakistan where religion is a personal matter. You and others have repreatedly posted his speech given a day ro two before Aug14/1947 where Jinnah says that religion will be a matter of personal faith and people can go to temples, mosques or churches as they wish.

Since you are probably the most well read person on Jinnah, can you point me to any open, unambigious promise/claim/covenant made by Jinnah publically during the Pakistan movement before Agust 11th where he says that Pakistan will be a democratic state where minorities are free to live and practice this religion as they wish? I am talking about a political covenant as in a manifesto. Afterall there were discussion about the shape and future of Pakistan since 1930`s, did Jinnah in any document/manifesto promise that earlier what he declared on August 11th? The third person narratives of Jinnah promising Sikhs or other minorities this and that does not count. thanks.