Myths about the Golden Age of Islam

avenger....

You can twist and turn words whichever way you like.... but I am afraid only a delusional idiot would accuse a man like Jinnah of what you do...

You are welcome to quote 1000 different bigoted websites... I have on the other hand have quoted your own High commissioner to Pakistan... and some of your leading writers.

Avenger, you seem to be more mis-guided than I could have ever imagined.

Are you not aware of how the Congress betrayed the League? The Congress is responsible for pushing the League into a corner and betraying it. The Cabint Mission, Cripps Mission, they were all sabotaged by Congress. It was more of a personal rivarly between Mr. Jinnah and Mr. Nehru/. Nehru was very well aware that if there would have been an United India, it would have been Jinnah and not Nehru who would be the Prime Minister. Therefore, Nehru was always beating around the bush trying to always sabatoge relations between the two parties. History it self bares testatement to the horrible statements by Nehru, such as the one where he said that the Congress might alter it`s agreements and could even back out of some. That gave Jinnah and the League a wake up call. Also, Congress and League had made a deal that the Congress would would build coalitions with the Muslim LEague. In the elections in the late 1930`s, the league did not fare that well but technically the League and COngress had made a contract. Nehru once again jumped to the seen as tried alienate the league by giving it an ultimatum in which the league would self-destruct. He proposed that the League cease to exist and all current League members would become members of the congress party.

You`re own leaders did actions, some itmes unintentionally, which led to the creation of Pakistan.

Also, Jinnah and Nehru were worlds apart. Jinnah was a man of secular ideals and his communication skills were leagues ahead of Nehru. Also, Jinnah was a strickler of constitionalism and did not believe in the mass religios politics of Gandhi propargated by that sly nehru.

Now please go back into that dark closet of yours and cry, since mama doesnt love you enough! haha

manny

my parents were very lucky to abandon the now pakistan with ease. they had no ``property``, they were immigrant labor, renting. so the only thing they lost was a trunk, charpoy and some pot and pans (my however talks about it even now ;-) ). they were not ``driven out`` but left (thinking its for a short time) sensing trouble. if events had turned out differently, who knows, i would be valiantly defending lahore here against veeru!

..continue..so i dont need any apology. a charpoy will be nice to get.

Mr. Jinnah in a statement issued from Bombay on September 11, 1946 offered to the Hindus the choice between creating Pakistan and forcing a Civil War in the country.


Replying to a question seeking suggestions for the restoration of peace in India, he said:”


“In view of the horrible slaughter in various parts of India, I am of the opinion that the authorities, both Central and Provincial, should take up immediately the question of exchange of population to avoid brutal recurrence of that which had taken place where small minorities have been butchered by the overwhelming majorities.”


Thus, scouting any suggestion that there could be peace and amity in the country, he advocated exchange of population-the uprooting of millions-and as it later turned out to be, of over twelve millions, and the butchering of about a million. This was the direction in which the Muslim League was inevitably leading the country.


What shocked the conscience of India even more than Calcutta, was the large-scale murder, loot, arson, rape, abduction and forced marriage of Hindu women in the Noakhali District of Eastern Bengal. This time the trouble came about in the October of 1946. It appears the League enthusiasts were on the look-out for an area of operation where they could be sure of very little resistance and where they could demonstrate to the Hindus in action as to what was in store for them in case they did not accept the Muslim League demand of Pakistan. In Calcutta the Hindus-although on the first two days they were completely surprised, and reeled under the sudden blow, and lost more than a thousand in killed-yet on the subsequent days they rallied and gave the Muslims as good as they got. The Muslim League perhaps realized the folly of having tried out Calcutta. A better spot should be selected, and this time it was Noakhali and the adjoining area of Eastern Bengal.


The district of Noakhali is almost at the extreme end of Eastern Bengal, surrounded by heavy Muslim majority areas. This district itself has perhaps the lowest percentage of non-Muslim population-the Muslim percentage being as high as 81.35. So, while it was particularly dastardly of the Muslims of this area to have chosen to fall upon the Hindus of this area, it was, from the point of their own scheme, a fit choice; for its very sparse Hindu population could offer little resistance to their onslaught. Attacks on a scale as large as Noakhali also occurred in the district of Tipperah, neighbouring on Noakhali, and with a Muslim population of 77.09%.


As the trouble broke out, for some time the country did not know about it. Noakhali is a far-away part of Bengal, and the Muslim League Ministry of Bengal did not allow the news of the carnage to trickle though as long as they could help it. So, the assailants had it all their own way for several days, unchecked.


The horror and the underlying conspiracy of this occurrence can best be described in the words of Shri S. L. Ghosh of the A. B. Patrika, quoted above. Says Shri S. L. Ghosh:


“The four days’ delay in receiving the news indicates at once the magnitude of preparations of the lawless elements as well as the criminal inefficiency of the administration machinery.2 It took ten days, fraught with horror, disgrace and torture for nearly two lakhs of Hindus for the Army to reach the neighbourhood of disaster, another ten days for them to move into the inner fringe of the disturbed area, and over a month to comb the interior of the devastated countryside.


“The horror of the Noakhali outrage is unique in modern history in that it was not a simple case of turbulent members of the majority community killing off helpless members of the minority community, but was one whose chief aim was mass conversion, accompanied by loot, arson and wholesale devastation……… No section of the people has been spared, the wealthier classes being dealt with more drastically. Murder also was part of the plan, but it was mainly reserved for those who were highly influential or who resisted. Abduction and outrage on women and forcible marriages were also resorted to; but their number cannot be easily determined. The slogans used and the methods employed indicate that it was all part of a plan for the simultaneous establishment of Pakistan. The demand for subscriptions for the Muslim League and for other purposes, including conversion ceremonies, showed that mass attackers, and their leaders were inspired by the League ideology.


“Apparently, the strategy of terrorisation adopted in Calcutta had failed to achieve the objective of recognition of Pakistan. The zealots of Pakistan in Noakhali and the southern portion of Tepperah, therefore, sought to make that muslim-majority area exclusive to a certain community, and thus convert it into the fortress of Eastern Pakistan, by forcible mass conversion of the other community…… (The League) leaders tried to minimize the enormity of the crimes…… they tended to confirm the impression that they were in close sympathy with the attackers and their nefarious policy and that this was the second phase of the direct action plan of the Muslim League to achieve Pakistan.


“It is false to suggest that the perpetrators were a gang of hooligans or that they mostly consisted of outsiders. The local people were the perpetrators in many cases and there was a general mass sympathy for what happened.


“The total number of evacuees, those, that is, who could leave the area of the disturbance alive, will be somewhere between 50 to 75 thousands including men, women and children of all conditions and castes.


“Over and above these persons, there will be another 50,000 or even more who are still living within the danger zone in what may be called the no man’s land. Theirs is the most tragic fate. They have all been subjected to conversion and are still3 under the clutches of their oppressors. Most of them have lost everything, and they suffer from both physical and mental collapse. Their humiliation and torture know - no limitations. Their names have been changed; their womenfolk insulted; their properties looted; they are being compelled to dress, to eat and to live like their so-called new brothers in faith. The male members have to attend the mosques, Maulvies come and train them at home; they are at the mercy of their captors for their daily food and indeed for their very existence. . . .”

mannyd #202 I have wasted enough time with your gibberish. Go bow to your Great Monkey God Modi and be proud of the way in which he put those muslim women and children in their place.

#79, Inquirer: This is a follow-up, Yasser.

I still standby my original summary comment but now I have had the opportunity to consider your total article.

I agree with your objective approach to eradicate the false premises and impressions that the Mullah brigade invokes to keep the Muslim population in Pakistan as backward as it has been for centuries.

Among the conflicts that you adduced you should also have mentioned the internecine conflict that existed among the Muslim population of India. That conflict led to half of the Muslims of Indian subcontinent to remain within India`s fold while the deluded other half rushed to an ill-conceived nation. Consistent with the fate of seventy five percent of the pious caliphs the first caliph of the twentieth century Pakistan, M. A. Jinnah, has been rumored to have been tortured to death and Fatima poisoned and tortured to death in their homes.

I am afraid I may not be able to respond to comments that might arise due to my observation as I am planning to go to India for one month but I do intend to answer if there are any questions.

Ultimate operative point is that the Muslims need to recognize and understand what is the appropriate role of religion. Islam, inspite of its later obsessions, did infact bring secular issues in the fields of consideration and the objective and thinking Muslims MUST save Islam from the Mullahs and Masjid. This is not as contradictory as it sounds. At the bottom is WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND RELIGION IS!

Mannyd ...

You can continue to regurgitate your nationalist myths or you could look at the facts

1) Despite having no money in the treasury, and no infrastructure, Jinnah and his Governor of Punjab Francis Mudie are universally praised for bringing law and order situation under control by not only people like H V Hodson but also India own first High commissioner Sri Prikasa who calls Jinnah the ``protector general of Hindus`` in Pakistan.

2) While all communities lost their lives ... the historical fact is that the great majority of those 587000 who were lost were actually Muslims killed in East Punjab. Whose watch was it in East Punjab.

3) The governor general of India disbanded the ``boundary force`` which was supposed to keep peace. As Kuldip Nayyar says , Mountbatten deliberately allowed things to go into disarray... my feeling is that he was egged on by some high officials of the congress Party who wanted Pakistan to collapse at inception.

-YLH

Tahmed32 197:

You claimed an IQ of 125 (or was it 135?) at one time. That would make you a Pakstani Einstein almost but your offer of tutoring me is not worth my money. No offense, but I am challenging your asinine statements on a public forum. You want to defend it in a logical manner, fine, but do not expect a wooden nickel from me for your `time`.

Let us start again. You said:

``I dont have two sets of principles - one for Pakistan, one for India.``

Did you mean to say ````I dont have two sets of principles - one for Congress India, one for BJP India.`` ?

If that is what you meant to say, I can see your logic of comparing Nehru, Modi or Sonia Gandhi only and leaving Jinnah in the Somnath of a shrine that Latifas are building to him.

You did not say that though, did you? NOw you are saying:

``Modi actually had his ``police`` stand around while families in Gujerat were being butchered by mobs of cowardly little hindu men (supporters of Modi`s hindu chauvinism``

Muslim Leauge ministry before August 14, 1947 and Jinnah after that date had his ``police`` stand around while families in Pakistan were being butchered by mobs of cowardly little muslim men(Supporters of Jinnah`s Muslim Chauvinism). He also had his Firemen ignore the frantic calls from burning Hindus. When Hindus of Lahore bought their own Fire engine, it was confiscated and water supply shut off to the HIndu localities. The Hindu and Sikh Pakistanies fleeing Jinnah`s secularism were systematically robbed at the bordeer of their petty little belongings by his Blauch army.


However you are saying that if I paid you enough tution for your time, you will convince me that none of this happened.

Veeresh #199 :

``mannyd/194 - the biggest property boom Pakistan ever saw is right now being fuelled by overseas NRI interests. Ask around near Sheikhupura/Nankana Sahib, especially. ``

Thanks for that info. I am sure it is Kaura_Such and Stuka behind the boom. LOL.

As our very own Bush said `` We have a saying in Texas, maybe it is Virginia, fool me once shame on me..could be in Georgia too.er ..er you can not fool me twice``

The exception to the rule are obvious too.)

Veeresh,

So far I resisted myself barely from responding to your utter stupidity...

But your latest comment about the property boom is indicative of the condition you suffer from which I have outlined in #29.

The property boom in Pakistan has been caused by a cut in interest rates and the so called
``feel good`` factor ... which is not so feel good anyway. The prices have been going up in Lahore at astronomical levels... because of investment in land. The prices in Nankana Sahab have grown by 1/10th of the rate of the prices in Lahore, and all the investment in Lahore has been by locals. According to an estimate 93% of all property bought in Lahore over the last 6 months has been by investors which has driven the prices rocketing.

You are a delusional human being... we had no doubt about that ... many of your Indian friends have no doubts about that... but this just out does anything... because one could excuse you for your view of Lahore to your natural biases... but this statement as usual is indicative of utter stupidity.

-YLH

#185 by taqat-e-parvaaz

[wow, you must have studied at harvard!! you`re so bright!]

And you, I’m sure, must have studied at a Madarssa (Binori?). That pretty much explains your upside-down way of looking at things.

[tell me where, oh wise one, i stated that pakistan controlled siachen? my only contention, albeit implied, was that it was a disputed territory, and i never refuted that certain parts of it are held by india.]

Nice try mate, but won’t work. Now tell me, what you mean by this in # 140:

“you can think what you want about siachen. the pak army will never let that go. i dare you to find one partial source that says that siachen is under direct control of the indian army.”

And this one is an even bigger gem:

“plus, we already have control of kargil, so you know what little boy, if it makes you happier and more proud to be an indian then go ahead, you can have siachen!!”

Any non-Madarssa educated guy will think what I thought. But I guess that’s the way it works for you guys. It’s a strange world.

[funny how you belittled the strategic point of kargil under pakistani control as diddly squat. why then is there a hue and cry about it in the indian press? scared to admit the truth?]

That is a Paki specialty. Indians come nowhere as close. To this day, you guys believe that the Indians were outdone in Kargil, and it was only the ‘cowardly’ Nawaz Sharif (as the Paki Army put it) who rushed to Washington and turned a victory into a defeat.

[pakistan out strategized india in kargil, and it was hardly indian army pressure that forced pakistan to withdraw. it was only american intervention that saved indias rear from an even nastier whooping. now go stare at your latest issue of playboy.]

Nawz Sharif would never have begged Clinton to ask Indian forces to stop attacking Paki forces if they were winning. Your soldiers ate grass because they ran out of food supplies. Their bodies were abandoned by their fleeing brothers-in-arms and had to be buried by Indian soldiers, because accepting them would have blown the cover off from what was touted as an ‘indigenous’ (you Pakis seem to love that word, your missiles are indigenous, your bomb is indigenous, etc.) operation by Kashmiri ‘freedom fighters’ (another word Pakis love). And yet, it was American intervention that saved India! You are more deluded than I thought.

#192 Romair
The percentage of christians in india is sligthly higher in India, may be 3-5%. Reason is a significant number of lower castes are converted to christianity, but continue to register as hindus as otherwise they loose the reservations. Welcome to the world of affirmative action.

#196 rahul
One of the strange things happening is that a large number of s.c/s.t candidates from villages towns and even cities, many of whom are 1or2 generation ``literates`` are too eager to grab the alloted govt. class IV jobs which are too easy to get after 8th standard or highschool. They do not realise that a large number of better paid reserved jobs are for their taking if they can finish their graduation. Culturally many of them are not willing to spend that much of time/effort on education. But in the last 10 years a lot has been chaning and we see a very aware generation.

veeresh #199 ``Ofcourse, like anything else, the religious angle needs to be brought in here too. ``
First of all, religious angle was not brought in everything,if you had read and understood my
full post.
Secondly, the article was about the experience of a journalist,and the article was not about the general problems faced by tenants. No need to be condescending here.

Romair/193 - on Parsis, yes, you are correct. And if anybody wants to know the hidden secrets behind England`s walkout from John Company and subsequent handover to assorted Kangressees and WOGs, sit with elderly Parsees (non-media, non-Hoodbhoy . . .) and listen.

RahulCapri/196 - renting a house in Bombay is difficult, period, because tenants never need to give the house back to the landlord. Or hadn`t you heard? Ofcourse, like anything else, the religious angle needs to be brought in here too.

mannyd/194 - the biggest property boom Pakistan ever saw is right now being fuelled by overseas NRI interests. Ask around near Sheikhupura/Nankana Sahib, especially.

Romair/192 - perception over fact.

mannyd #195 First, to be fair, for 1947 you ignore that muslims were massacred in India as much as hindus/sikhs in Pakistan.

Second, by no stretch of imagination can Nehru (whom you conveniently ignore) or Jinnah be compared to Modi - Modi actually had his ``police`` stand around while families in Gujerat were being butchered by mobs of cowardly little hindu men (supporters of Modi`s hindu chauvinism). In case of 1947, it was a totally different situation, and if you need some lessons in history to understand why, then send me the tuition for my time and I will educate you.