Myths about the Golden Age of Islam

Learn some history first dude.

ylh about myth number 2...you are wrong..they were all elected in the same way..Hazrat Abu Bakr was chosen by the 10 close companions of the Holy Propthet(pbuh) who He said were `jannaty`...Then Hazrat Umer was not only chosen by Hazrat Abu Bakr but again by the companions...Hazrat Abu Bakr was just the first one to vote for him...Hazrat Usman was elected by the remaining close companions...and as for Hazrat Ali`s case i am not sure and do not wish to make a comment about something i am not sure on...but he was either elected by the remaining companions or because he was one of the closest companions of The Holy Prophet(pbuh) and some of the 10 companions had voted for him in the past he was elected...but i will re-check and let you know

Re: # 306
La-deenyat is Irriligiosity. Secularism is Zindiqyat or Mazdikiyat. One should always be suspicious about english words ending in -ism. Like the word ``synderome`` it is a fancy concept of saying `` I don`t really know what the hell I,m talking about`` and at the same time look very harvardish and ``respectable``

razijaffery: 305

you are a most welcome addition here. We need more & more proud and avowed muslims here to counter murtid, kaafirs, zindiques seeking respectability here.

In reply to 305

The urdu term for secularism is `la-deeniyat` which does not mean atheism. It simply means `non religious`.

I am curious to know if Mr. Hamdani is familiar with the cultural origins of secularism as a term and political construct. Where did this term come from? Just want to highight that in the three major Islamic languages, namely Arabic, Persian and Urdu the word secularism can either be just transliterated - as is done in the popular media- or if one intends to be more precise, would translate it as atheism. So either one is religious or one is atheist in the Islamic worldview (or it seems to be that way).

I think a defense of secularism or a case made for it need far more substance than what has been offered here.

ShoreSahib

The Hadees about blasphemy which I reproduced in my post at 13 is from the Compilation of Sunnan Abudawud which is included in `Suha Sitta`, the six authentic compilations of ahadees according to the Sunni sect and, I presume, is the main bases for the controversial Blasphemy Law in Pakistan. You believe only in Non-hadees macro here-say history but do not believe in Hadees which is recorded micro History and considered authentic by `Sawade Aazam`. For your information even Quran was compiled in a book form much later. You are least concerned with hadees like the one I quoted perhaps because you are not a Paky, subject to the BL, a sword hanging on the head of every Pakistani.

And now see what the Faqeeh say about killing of human beings for the sake of religion.

The Muslim apologist writers often quote a verse of Quran, as usual, out of context, to support their contention that Islam forbids terrorism involving killing of innocent human beings. I quote the full verse 5/32 below: -

“For that cause (murder of a son of Adam by his brother) We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being (Nafsa) for other than manslaughter (?) or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), but afterwards lo! Many of them became prodigals in the earth. (Translation by Pickthall).

In the first place, as is obvious from the above quotation, the decree was meant expressly for of the children Israel and as such why should the non-Israeli Muslims consider it binding on them. Secondly, for the Muslims the Quran does allow, albeit under certain conditions, the killing of human beings if they are considered to be ‘Kafirs, Blasphemers, Zideeq, etc.’ . And what about the sectarian ‘Fatwas’ galore according to which some sects declare members of some other sects as kafirs, murtad, wajibulqatl and what not. And if the poor human being escapes all these fatwas there is the all pervading fatwa of branding one a‘Zindeeq’ (a person who professes to be a Muslim but conceals his kufr). And my God! What name will you give to the killing of a human being in compliance with the fatwa of Imam Abu Hanifa who says, “A Zindeeq should be killed secretly whenever opportunity comes to hand as his ‘Toubah’ (repentance) is not acceptable. And Imam Malik says, Zindeeqs shall be killed and they would not be called upon to repent (to submit touba). (Ahkaamul Quran liljasas 286 J 2)

My dear ShoreSahib what will you call all these edicts exhorting killing of human beings if not religious terrorism. Terrorism may have no religion but sectarian religion does have terrorism as it is sin qua non-for its existence and struggle for dominance.

PM#302
That is a good manly answer. ``see if I care`` ... You will start caring very soon, I will promise you.

as far as quoting Jinnah out of context, feel free to quote Jinnah within context to counter my arguments (I doubt if you can). After Wolpert, YLH`s is your next expert!! So that is ``more than one book you read``. I am impressed.

Yes bandwidth is free and this is ciberspace. You may come quickly throw 8 posts in a sequence and than hide behind ``I have no time`` or read ``wolpert or YLH``...

re. friend: ``Kindly recognize that by making ``below the belt`` comments, you have opened your self to similar ``below the belt`` comments. I wont be surprised if you also start getting same differential treatment as our official CRIEP certifier is getting.``

See if I care. Jeez, it`s a freakin` cyber board. Take what you like of the arguments and posters themselves and ignore what you don`t.

Your point that I need to read more on Gandhi`s political influence is taken under advisement.

However, frankly, your quoting Jinnah out of context (read YLH`s many articles and explanations for something approaching a through contextualization of Jinnah`s statements) does nothing to better fit the moniker `megalomaniac` to Jinnah. But keep trying if you`d like to. Bandwidth is free.

mohar
hmm.. actually, you DO need to get a life.. I mean one in which you don`t have pretensions of being able to teach anybody ANYTHING!

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#298 by PM
//...Shall we get back to living our lives now?....//

Get BACK to live your life?? Sure!!! But why did you stop living your life in the first place ;) ?

Anyway - take note of the advices from Mr. ``friend``. He seems to be even a better educator than me - so do read his very informative posts. So that, next time you come to chowk - you don`t regurgitate your ridiculous theories about ``jinnah`s constitutional arguments`` and ``gandhi`s experiments with naked grand-daughters``?

Good bye.

PM # various
Kindly recognize that by making ``below the belt`` comments, you have opened your self to similar ``below the belt`` comments. I wont be surprised if you also start getting same differential treatment as our official CRIEP certifier is getting.

You may need to read few more book to know that Gandhi`s effect was ``politically readily visible`` in addition to being profound. Go search for ``punch Gandhi Africa`` on Google.

Let me take you to dictionary definition of Megalomania

meg·a·lo·ma·ni·a ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mg-l-mn-, -mny)
n.
1. A psychopathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence.
2. An obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions.

Now consider
1. A person making an absolute statement about incompatibility between two nations of hindus and muslims,
2. leading a mass movement for 7 years based on that statement,
3. On one fine day declaring that, sorry Hindus and Pakistai can live together, let us have a secullar state!
4. And after three days declaring again that Dear Muslims, it is your independence

Anyone playing with people`s psychology and believe that he will succeed has to be dilusional about his power.

Gee I`m touched, mohar!
Shall we get back to living our lives now?

PM
//....by the sheer bandwidth you devote to me...//

And you are worth it, believe me. I don`t accept just anybody as a student for re-education :) And the ``comic relief`` you are experiencing right now is part of the process - it makes re-education easier to go thru.

Friend
//...Patrick Massih, I thought you were old enough to stay away from ``experiments with his naked granddaughters``...//

Patrick Massih is a good boy. It`s just that he is a little mis-guided at this point. But if you consider the social, cultural and educational environment he grew-up in, that`s par the course. I mean - when you get a chance, just glance thru the textbooks that they teach in pakiland. You would perfectly understand why Patrick Massih says what he says.

But fortunately this condition is reversible to some extent. With rigorous re-education Patrick Massih can be made to grow up.

mohar #various:
I`m flattered, i must say, by the sheer bandwidth you devote to me. Gee, i must have you riled up real good!!

For the record, using the constitution and law (and appealing to the others` sense of jsutice) to argue for a sseperate state is not the same as fighthing for independence. But somthing tells me you`re not very big on even not-so-suble distinctions anyway.

But keep at it anyways.. you provide comic relief if nothing else. ;P

friend:
I agree ``experiment with naked granddaughters`` was below the belt.
But somtimes its the only way to rebut idiocy. I don`t think Gandhiji`s image can be soiled anyway.

friend:
P.S. I also am under no illusions as to Gandhi`s profound, if not politically readily visible, effect on the collective pysche of both Indians and non-Inidans alike. Take whatever I might have said here about the mahatama with a pinch of salt.

P.P.S... Whatever gave you the idea that my opinion on Nehru was formed from reading only ONE book by Wolpert? Also, the quotes you provide from the Jinnah papers lend themselves to the suggestion that Jinnah was dictatorial, but i don`t think megalomaniacal.

anilkv #289

The fortunes of a state should not tied to a single person. I hope Pakistan`s is not tied to Musharraf.

PM
//...am I possibly mistaking icons and history books here?...//

You are mistaking pretty much everything. You have NO clue whatsover :)

First of all - it was the great grand-nieces, not grand-daughters. Jeez man - get your facts right before you start fa@ting away on chowk. Because, here in chowk we are very particular about such things :)

Anyway - who told you that the fasting, praying half-naked faqir achieved the alleged independence for India? Anybody who claims that, is trying to brain-wash you. Stay away from such people - you got that Mian?

Now - british were already shamed to death in that big-a$$ war which was supposed to end all wars. They didn`t need any more shames - either by a jacka$$ lawyer`s ``constitutional arguments`` or by the prayers of half-naked faqir. They were tired and one fine morning in Aug 1947, they just left. And 12 million fools started killing each other - a million were masacred within a few days.

That`s the way you got your ``independence``. ``Shaming by argument`` or ``shaming by naked great grand-nieces`` has nothing to do with it.

PM

PostScript: Please read that piece on ``How Patrick Masih Got His Independece From British`` very carefully. That concludes the first lesson on your re-education process.

On your way out, please pay $375 [which includes a 25% premium, since you started completely clueless] at the front desk. If you don`t have the resources - you can apply to the CPEF [ Clueless Pakis re-Education Fund] - set up by the generous chowk staff for helping people like you to get a re-education on things that matter.

If you need deatails - contact YLH, Tahmed. They are the stars of the alumni. [Even though , Tahmed may need a few more classes. He has lapsed a bit lately.]

Good luck :)

PM #286
1. Impression based on only one book (it appears that too a cursory reading) can be misleading. References quoted by me are from Jinnah papers- Jinnah`s own output. You used a very specific derogatory term against Nehru, and spared Jinnah from that label. My objection is to that. Use same yardstick.


2. Coming to your another statement on Gandhi - What did he achieve in South Africa by his peaceful protests. Read ``punch`` and other British news papers (1909 and later).. If you do not have time than just look at editorial cartoons in papers of that time. They will indicate what impact Gandhi was making on policies in South Africa.

Patrick Massih,
I thought you were old enough to stay away from ``experiments with his naked granddaughters``..
I guess you are not, and you are inviting some interesting comments. Resorting to personal life of Gandhi is only option when people are not able to find flaws in his professional life.

#281 taqat-e-p

The lis of CSIS speakers typically includes, apart from US politico-economic leaders, leaders from sudan, georgia, slovakia, turkey, albania, kyrgyz, heads of some political parties in japan, south korea, bostwana, azerbaigan etc... all regions of active or semi-active US interventions.. so Iam not sure musharrafs speech ther eis a cause for pride.. it`s pure US interests.. I would rather Manmohan use his talents for india instead of wasting time in foriegn countries giving useless speeches...

``So Jinnah achieved independence for muslims by ``shaming and persuading`` the birtish with ``law and constitutional arguments``?

No, duh!! he got it not only for the Muslims but for all of India by shaming the British by fasting, praying, satyagraha and thru experiments with his naked granddaughters.

ummm.. or am I possibly mistaking icons and history books here? :-)

friend,
An answer to the questions in your @273 demands an amount of time I simply don`t have on my hands. The short answer, however, is that my impression of Nehru has been formed chiefly from Wolpert`s accounts. And don`t dimiss him either. The man has probably read more on Indian politics and history than any Indian!

Which is not to say i dislike Nehru. He was a socialist to the core-- impossible for someone like me to dislike!

#275 by Manto,

Nehru`s megalomania is apparent in all of his actions...Let us not forget that he jailed his friend Abdullah and then lied about it for many years...This is just one of the examples...

The last time Manto mentioned treatment of Abdullah by Nehru in the context of the terrorist maqbool butt, I replied with the trechery of Abdullah (reproduced below), in reply to which, Manto, without a single comment against it, diverted to my lack of ``basic english comprehension`` and zeroed in on one word ``eulogy of Busharraf``.

This matches up with Manto`s pattern of raising hue and cry over foul personalities and when presented with facts; ignore, divert or relegate to personal abuse.

What the below mentioned cleary highlights as opposed to what Manto wishes you to believe, is that Nehru treated Abdullah the way he deserved it, as any trator should be.

About Traitor Abdullah:
please do explain what prompted him to jail Shaikh Abdullah

Communalism of Sheikh Abdullah

Sheikh Abdullah was the product of that Aligarh Muslim University which had produced many leaders for assisting the Indian Muslim society in adopting the path of separatism. The founders of the ``isms`` of Muslim nationalism, Muslim fundamentalism and creation of Pakistan were produced from the same university. Sheikh Abdullah had received M.Sc. degree from the university and was appointed a science teacher in Government High School, Srinagar. From this very place he started his political activities.

In order to establish his political base in Kashmir the Sheikh decided to collect and incite Muslim youths against the Maharaja. He gave up his service to intensify his political activities. However, Dr. Gori Nath Rastogi has, in his book ``Our Kashmir``, written that the Sheikh was sacked because of immoral behaviour. He had already received, as a gift from the Aligarh Muslim University, the seeds of communalism in his mind and the sacking from the services further inflamed him. His mind was inflammed with hatred against the Maharaja and he started plans for promoting religious passions. The British diplomacy had the need for such a person in Jammu and Kashmir.

Sheikh Abdullah started encouraging communalism openly. He launched a movement on the basis of the demand for Government posts for the Muslims, their share in the administration and religious freedom. Inflammatory speeches from mosques began communalising the entire atmosphere. The Sheikh also succeeded in giving Islamic hue to the entire movement. How was this dye ? Gopinath Shrivastav has given information about this dye in his book ``Kashmir``.

.....

PM
//... he read the situation and knew exactly who he was dealing with-- an Empire on its knees, yet one capable of being shamed or persuaded to do things with an appeal to law and constitutional arguments...//

So Jinnah achieved independence for muslims by ``shaming and persuading`` the birtish with ``law and constitutional arguments``??? :))))

Boy, you are an one-man freak-show. Look - we all appreciate your belated effort to shore up Jinnah Defence - but you are not helping at all. In fact, you are making it worse. ``Shaming the british to give muslims independence`` sounds like a line straight out of Saturday Night Live :))

So leave Jinnah Defence to Manto - he can handle it alone. OK, big guy!!

taqat-e-parvaaz # 281

`` i love it when indians rant and rave about musharraf. it proves he`s got them by their tiny yoohoos. if musharrafs just a dismal general (a glaring indication this was written by a frustrated indian), whens the last time manmohan singh, or any PM of india, spoke at harvard?? or ISIS? ``

#280 was a LA Times editorial. I should have indicated it. My mistake.

I care less about Musharraf. In the beginning I thought he would be different from Zia or Ayub. Did he promise to step down in 3 years ??? 5 years ??? But he has gone down the same path as both of them.

In response to your question when was the last time Indian PM spoke at CSIS or Harvard ?
Personally I did not give a squat. I hope most of them don`t give a diddly squat about giving speeches at CSIS or Harvard :-) What is this slavish mentality towards Harvard and CSIS ? I have nothing against either of them.

#280

i love it when indians rant and rave about musharraf. it proves he`s got them by their tiny yoohoos. if musharrafs just a dismal general (a glaring indication this was written by a frustrated indian), whens the last time manmohan singh, or any PM of india, spoke at harvard?? or ISIS?

There were three great minds of that era: Ambedkar, Iqbal, and Gandhi.. These three had the most original and comprehensive theories of the futures they were trying to create.

re: # 257
The article that avenger has posted should be an eyeopener for most Indians who think they can be friends with Pakis.
Sridhar

Just Another General

January 9, 2005

On Sept. 11, 2001, the main protector of the Taliban — and Al Qaeda — outside Afghanistan was the government of next-door Pakistan. But by the next day, President Pervez Musharraf had responded to Washington`s ``with us or against us`` ultimatum by throwing in with the United States. Sort of.

Musharraf then had been running Pakistan for two years, having seized power in a coup. After the 9/11 attacks he promised to step down as army chief of staff while keeping his presidential post, a promise he repeated as each year dawned. But when 2005 arrived, there was the president on television, telling the nation he just couldn`t take off the uniform yet: He needed to keep his army post so he could continue fighting terrorism.

That argument is not totally specious — Musharraf has twice survived assassination attempts by Islamic fundamentalists — but unless he does a far better job of using his combined civilian and military posts to improve Pakistan`s economy, educational system and political institutions, he`ll be just the latest in the country`s dismal list of generals who seized power and refused to let go.

Musharraf has rigged elections, proclaimed himself president and constantly insisted to Washington that it`s him or terrorism. After turning to hard-line Islamic parties for support, he is now trying to use the secular Pakistan People`s Party to undercut the Islamists.

The best thing for Pakistan now would be for him to let the PPP`s leader, Benazir Bhutto, back into the country and let her party and the rival but also secular Pakistan Muslim League choose their own candidates in elections.

When Pakistan promised to help hunt Osama bin Laden and block Al Qaeda fighters from fleeing across the border with Afghanistan, Washington rewarded it by ending sanctions and ordering an aid package of up to $3 billion. But the U.S. should insist on value for the money. The Bush administration should demand that Pakistan establish secular public primary schools to compete with fundamentalist madrasas that preach hatred of all religions except Islam.

Musharraf also has stiff-armed Washington in its attempts to talk with Abdul Qadeer Khan, who helped North Korea, Iran and Libya pursue nuclear weapons. The general claimed Khan was a ``rogue scientist`` and then pardoned him. Musharraf`s claim that Khan acted without the knowledge of top generals and civilian leaders is laughable.

Pakistan has alternated for most of its 57 years of independence between rule by corrupt civilian governments and by army generals. If Musharraf does nothing to improve his country, Washington should call him to account. The U.S. has billions of dollars worth of leverage; leaving it idle does no one any good.

yaseer,
Who knew what Jinnah would have done had he remained alive. A very simple test can be to compare what they did till 1948 when they were contemporaries...

PM applied this badge selectively, I need to know why he left Jinnah without that honor.

friend...

Nehru`s megalomania is apparent in all of his actions...Let us not forget that he jailed his friend Abdullah and then lied about it for many years...This is just one of the examples...

Mantolives #254

I am not a fan of Gandhi or his philosophy. Like it or not he had the ability to influence or inspire others in a way I and you cannot. Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King are people who were directly inspired by Gandhi. Both Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King are historic personalities in their own right.

re. #272 by arjun_m on January 9, 2005 10:11am PT

``That`s right...Wadia, like Azim Premji, only made it in India because he had a rich dad and a hindu last name....if the wadias are big shots in India, there is no way any of this can be attributed to their hard work and opportunity they got in India... ``

No. duh! i`m saing Wadia`s can`t-- unless you count colonial India as India.

--And I`m not really impressed with your conflation of names either. We weren`t debating the viability of India`s economy, duh!

PM #258-265
You write
``Don`t get me wrong, Gandhi was, as he will always be known, a Great Soul and all, but the need for the hour was a great mind. And that was Jinnah, or even the megalomanical Nehru, but not Gandhi. ``

I guess you just got access to a public internet connection and had to quickly release your gems of wisdom for us mortals.
Let me bring to your kind attention, Patrick Massih sir, some references
W. C. Smith; Islam in Modern History; p. 273
``Mr. Jinnah is usually regarded, by Pakistanis at least, as a brilliant leader. That he was a clever dialectician and lawyer seems clear. Yet is it not perhaps time to bring into question his statesmanship, his political sagacity, in view of his apparent failure to foresee - apparently even to try to foresee - the concrete working out of his proposals... If he is to be credited with all of Pakistan`s achievements, as is customary, should he be exempted from responsibility for its problems?``


Following is quoted from A G NOORANI.

The first volume of Sardar Patel`s Correspondence 1945-50 appeared in 1971, containing Lord Mountbatten`s detailed account of his meeting with Mohammed Ali Jinnah in Lahore on November 1, 1947, including the text of an offer he made in writing to his host — plebiscite in Kashmir, Hyderabad and Junagadh. Jinnah rejected it. A quarter century later, on November 27, 1972, President Z.A. Bhutto told a tribal jirga at Landikotal that Patel had, at one stage, offered Kashmir to Pakistan in exchange for Junagadh and Hyderabad; but, ``unfortunately`` Pakistan (read: Jinnah) did not accept the offer with the result that it lost not only all the three princely states but East Pakistan as well


Hasan Zaheer rendered high service to historical truth by revealing (page 120) a cryptic entry, dated November 30, Jinnah had made in the Notebook which reads: ``Kashmir - no commitment should be made without my approval of terms of settlement. Mr. Liaquat has agreed and promised to abide by this understanding`` (emphasis as in original).

Zaheer recorded: ``The Cabinet had decided on 30 December 1947 that no question of policy or principle would be decided except at a Cabinet meeting presided over by the Quaid-I-Azam and that in the event of any difference of opinion between him and the Cabinet the decision of the Quaid would be final and binding`` (page 121). This not only undermined the authority of the Cabinet; it destroyed parliamentary democracy.

So PM saheb, do you still say that Jinnah was a staunch democrat and Nehru was megalomanic? Read more below

Jinnah`s speech on March 21 1948 in Dacca
Let me tell you in the clearest language that there is no truth that your normal life is going to be touched or disturbed so far as your Bengali language is concerned. But ultimately it is for you, the people of this province, to decide what shall be the language of your Province. But let me make it very clear to you that the state language of Pakistan is going to be Urdu and no other language. Any one who tries to mislead you is really the enemy of Pakistan. Without one state language, no nation can remain tied up solidly together and function. Look at the history of other countries. Therefore, so far as the state language is concerned, Pakistan`s language shall be Urdu. But as I have said, it will come in time.

Does it tell you who was possessed megalomania!! Another example follow below

June 14th, speech to offices to staff college, Quetta
``I want you to remember, and if you have time enough, you should study the Government of India Act, as adapted for use in Pakistan, who is the Governor-General and, therefore, any command or orders that may come to you cannot come without the sanction of the Executive Head. This is the legal position.`` He overlooked the fact that he had to act on the advice of Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan. But in Pakistan the roles were reversed by Jinnah.

Do not forget to comeback with quotes from Nehru to prove your labelling his as megalomaniac. Nehru was in public life for more than 60 years and you will certainly find some if there is any. I look forward to your quotes

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* 268 this inquiry
How movie Mr. Gandhi did in western countries on commercial basis ?( did white people went to see or all Indians only)
Was it shown in commercial theaters or just in activist univ auditorium?
I have heard here in Karachi that Govt of India supported movie financially? and spend money to get those prizes ? It is said here byeducated people even mandela `` was induced`` to write about Gandhi in Time magzine as man of scentury. Is it true?
I have interest in seeing that movie but indian movies are not liked by govt as a cultural invasion but pakistanis ALL agree in doing one thing is watch Indian movies. Even my exbosses wife is addicted to Indian movies.
I have seen Jinnah here , It was not movie more documentary, not much drama. For movie to be successful one needs drama and Gandhi was all drama and dramatic actions. Jinnah movie had no drama except may be for historians.
Two different men, one was founder of pakistan, no less no more. Other was a men of century, a visionary a revolutionary made change in ideas about revolution. That is reason Gandhiji is revered for his even child like obssession for all overworld. Times fades all, mao, lenin stalin etc great leaders slowly fading even in their countries. Gandh will vanish from India surely but will remain as an idol for young people for his ferorisity and child like compassion and all life activities.

with my feelings about Gandhiji tell me honestly did english or europeans did go to Gandhi by paying ``money``? Give honest answer. May be american went as negro leader king considerd him mental teacher but do white regular people went to see movie ?
I have no comment about subject of article.

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``Still many many years later... Jinnah manages to stir up controversy and wins the title of ``greatest ever south asian leader`` despite emphatic APPEALS by Indian TV to vote for Gandhiji... ``

What does that suggest Manto ? What sort of people would vote in a `BBC.CO.UK GREATEST SOUTH-ASIAN LEADER` internet poll ? Indians and Pakistanis obviously. And Indians outnumber Pakistanis 7 to 1. Jinnah still got most of the votes that were cast.What does that tell you ? More Pakistanis voted than Indians , perhaps ? And that only Pakistanis are stupid enough to take these things seriously , maybe...

Inspite of `emphatic appeals by Indian TV to vote for Gandhiji` (your words) , not many Indians bothered to do so....and many of those who did take the trouble of voting just for the heck of it (like me) voted for Subhash Chandra Bose. Indians have moved on. Our heroes and our leaders are not Gandhis or Nehrus - but people like Ambani , Premji , Murthy , Tata , Kalam etc.

You are a fool to go ballistic with such frivolous internet polls. As far as I remember , in a similar internet poll conducted by BBC a few years back , Amitabh Bachchan was voted as the `Greatest Actor of the Milleneum` ....beating quite easily other nominees like Marlon Brando , Al Pacino , Charlton Heston , Gregory Peck and so on. Again - what does that tell you ? Obviously only yhr sub-continental types take the trouble of participating in these polls. And Jinnah`s elevation as the `Greatest South Asian etc. etc. ` only proves that the Indians have finally grown up and found other hobbies. Thank god for that.

So much for the authenticity of these internet polls !! Atleast Gandhi got a major Hollywood movie made in his name - which I think went on to win many Oscars. The whole world (North Amrica /Europe / Australia) has atleast heard of Gandhi. Jinnah who ?

Veeresh,

I have no problems with Nusli Wadia`s place of residence or his nationality. I only have a problem with people like you. You keep trying to project your bigotry on to me. I am merely responding to your lies.

rsidhar...

I have no qualms with you holding that view... Jinnah himself said that ``maybe this view is correct, maybe it is not``. I am merely responding to what mohar11 was writing.

Mentality of somebody like Urstruly is described best in the below article...

---

Mindset of Pakistanis favouring 1971 Genocide

By Abul Kasem

This re-count starts when I was in Thailand in 1973 to do my post graduate studies in Engineering. The Institution was AIT and being an international institution for post graduate study there were students from many parts of the world, though the majority were from the Asian countries. There was sizable number of Bangladeshi as well as Pakistani and Indian students. Bangladesh was just liberated and most of us still had the fresh memories of the holocaust and never expected the Pakistanis to be friendly with us. But to our surprise, we found that most Pakistanis were quite nice a bunch of friendly helpful people. They were extremely curious about what had happened in Bangladesh during that turbulent nine-month period.

Many a time we used to have lengthy chat sessions with them. These Pakistanis were extremely religious. And they used to preach on us on all aspects of the last revelations of God, that is Islam. They used to think that our knowledge of Islam was incomplete, erroneous and filled with Hindu practices. They used to preach on us like a priest gives sermons on the followers. Their devotion to Islam was so strong that they forced the canteen manager to open counter for Muslim students so that they (the Muslims) can eat the food sanctioned by Islam. Naturally, many Bangalees who are religious minded were greatly impressed by their words and practices. But a sinner like me was very skeptical about their words and actions right from the very beginning.

Then came the topic of creation of Bangladesh. Naturally, they sided with the Pak army although they expressed sorrow for the lives lost. When they heard that 3 million people were massacred and that the action of Pak army cannot be dismissed simply as an act of restoration of peace and order they simply laughed. The reason was that they did not believe what had happened to our people in occupied Bangladesh. When we asked them how many Bangalees were killed, they quoted a figure of 3,000 or to that order. They also insisted that those killed were mostly Hindus so we should not bother too much about the massacre. That was to say that the killing of Hindus was all right. We pointed out that the figure of 3 million was not invented by the Government of Bangladesh but the figure was from reliable foreign sources such as AFP, Reuters, Time magazine, etc. We also told them that a Pakistani journalist by the name of Anthony Mascarenhas has written a book titled ‘The Rape of Bangladesh’ where he had quoted a similar figure. The Pakistanis simply dismissed those facts and said that the foreign journalists were bribed by India to write these figures. When we asked them how did they get the figure of 3,000, they said that that figure was released by the military authorities. And how about the 200, 000 rape cases? They were adamant that not a single woman was raped. Such is the power of Pak oligarchy and Pak military to condition peoples’ mind.

Now, the interesting point was that whenever the atrocities of the Pak army were mentioned to them, they were all adamant that we (the Bangalees) are to blame for that. Why? Simply because we were not good Muslims. How? If we were good Muslims, we should not have voted for the Awami League. They told us that the right parties to vote were Pakistan Muslim League or Jamat-i-Islami. It was no secret to guess that most Pakistanis considered us (Bangalees) as non Muslims as almost all of us voted for Awami League. Therefore they opined that the genocide was not really a genocide! It was getting rid of the non-Muslims. After all, they (the non-Muslims) were not really human beings.

Everyone knows that Thailand and especially Bangkok has plenty of seedy joints to have fun and frolic with young women. I shall admit that I went to one of those joints along with a couple of friends of mine. Being a sinner I did not have serious problem with those things. However, one day we got the shock of our lives when we found these Pakistani Islamists sitting comfortably and blithely at the massage parlour and ogling at the scantily dressed amorous Thai sex kittens. Then they saw us. To our surprise, they expressed no shame or they even did not try to hide their faces. They openly welcomed us and shook hands with us as per Islamic style. We were simply stunned and lost for any word. The Pakistanis even told us which girls were good and sexually attractive, etc. etc. They were not ashamed or afraid to admit that they visited those joints quite frequently. Most of them had their favourite girls with whom they had plenty of erotic fun. Those things were unbelievable to me and I thought that I must have been in Mars or another planet or that God has changed his mind on sins and virtues.

After a few weeks, an opportunity came for me to ask one of these Islamists as to what would happen to them since they have committed the sin of zina. They were very surprised at me for this impertinence. He told me that they have committed no sin. What? No sin! My brain must have failed to work! I simply could not hold my breath any longer to listen to what they had to say. He told me that Thais were not Muslims; so having fun with their girls were all right. In fact, he told me that that had been the practice in Islam for centuries. Whenever the Muslims defeated the non-Muslims, they could do whatever they (the Muslims) wanted with the non-Muslims. The Muslims can use the non-Muslim women as sex slaves and please themselves as they wished. A Muslim even had the right to kill the women if he wished. In simple language the non-Muslims were not really human beings. They (the non-Muslims) were inferior even to cattle and animals. Moreover, the Pakistani told me that the Prophet had allowed to have sex if a man is living overseas. I could not believe of what I was hearing! He then quoted me from his memory many verses from Koran and Hadith to support his views. Then I reminded my Pakistani friend that there was quite a small minority of Muslims in Thailand. So, if by accident he had sex with one of the Thai Muslim prostitutes what will befall him. He answered glibly, “No problem.” When I return to Pakistan I shall have a Milad Mehfil and ask for forgiveness. Finally, the Hajj is there for him to receive the forgiveness. But he said that that might not be necessary because he was very sure that none of the girls he had sex with were Muslims.

If a Pakistani reads this re-count he/she may be greatly offended, no doubt about it. Many Pakistanis will defend that the view by one person does not mean any thing. No apology will be sought. Any Pakistani can form whatever opinion he thinks is suitable. It is up to him/her. Let us look at the wider implications of what my Pakistani Islamists had said. Was it an individual’s wrong interpretations of the holy books of Islam? Was it the mindset of a mentally sick person? Do not be fooled by these thoughts. For when we look back, we see that that was the mindset of Pakistani army recruits who unleashed a reign of terror leading into massacring millions of Bangalees. Pakistanis may differ on many matters but when the question of Islamic superiority comes, they are unanimous. This was the work of the Oligarchy, the army and the clerics of Pakistan. These groups have rigidly programmed the vast majority of Pakistanis with the thought that they (the Pakistanis) have the absolute superiority in Islamic matters. And this thinking got a further boost with the detonation of Islamic bomb in 1998. We Bangalees have no problem with their superior thinking. The only trouble is that these dangerous thoughts have cost 3 million dear lives of Bangalees.

So, to put everything in a simple language, the Pakistani army did not kill any human being in Bangladesh. They only cleared the field from pest; just like a farmer spreads insecticide to free his crops from devastation. So, is the case of the Pak army. They simply eliminated the non-Muslims and the not so good Muslims to protect the good Muslims those who would follow them. The question of remorse or guilt feeling does not arise at all. You see, the Pak army did not rape any women. They simply enjoyed the flesh of non-Muslims. Even if there were some excessive force being applied, there is no need to feel guilty about that. The ubiquitous Milad is there; the Hajj is there too to remove even the slightest trace of culpability. A serial killer is a psychologically sick person. He gets pleasure in seeing the suffering of a dying person in his hands. But deep down, the serial killer knows that what he is doing is wrong. He is surely aware of the eventual punishment if he is caught. That is why, most serial killers readily admit their crime and on many occasions regret of their actions when he recovers from his sickness. How about the perpetrators of a genocide? They are perfectly normal. Most of them are really very nice, polite, and soft spoken (like the Islamic Circle of North America’s leader Ashrafuzzaman Khan). But there is one trait that separates them from the rest of us and that is, the uncompromising faith in the supremacy of what they belief and their inability to accept the existence of others if they do not follow them. Any means is justified to advance their belief even if that means the annihilation of an entire race. That is why no Pakistani has ever condemned the genocide of the Bangalees. That is why they will do that again if an opportunity lends itself. Since no crime has been committed, the question of trial of the perpetrators of genocide does not arise at all. Isn’t it so?

This is the mindset of the planners and executioners of Bangladesh genocide.

re. mohar11 #249:
``Don`t want to upset you [Yasser], but a small question:- if you claim to be fighting for the masses, shouldn`t you atleast speak their language??? How would Mr Arafat fight for Palis if refused to speak in arabic (or whatever language the palis speak)? ... So there is one example right there. A case of ivory-tower-freedom-fighting, also known as type-writer-freedom-fighting. But the good thing is - it worked. Demagoguery usually works, for a short time atleast. ``

This has got to be the dumbest bit of sophistry I`ve seen in long time! Forget the fact that in this case (Jinnah`s) the ``masses`` were not nearly as culturally homogenous as the Palestinians, and so had nothing approaching a common language (in fact, if anything English might have been the nearest thing to that) -- but this dimwit misses the point of Jinnah`s genius: he achieved for the Muslims (and would have possibly achieved for all of India, given the opportunity) an independendence without having to go to war, coz he read the situation and knew exactly who he was dealing with-- an Empire on its knees, yet one capable of being shamed or persuaded to do things with an appeal to law and constitutional arguments.

Ironically, this seems to piss Indians off the most-- I mean the fact that, like Gandhiji, he never spent a single day behind bars or emaciated himself through fasts. ( Yeah, lots of good that did the cause of Independence! ..... hello? Anyone remember S. Africa, 1919??)

Don`t get me wrong, Gandhi was, as he will always be known, a Great Soul and all, but the need for the hour was a great mind. And that was Jinnah, or even the megalomanical Nehru, but not Gandhi.

Saadat Hassan Manto, who was at best neutral to the Pakistan idea and not a fan of the Muslim League, wrote a most wonderful piece called ``Mera Sahab`` about Mahomed Ali Jinnah.

Translated here by Godot...

---

An English translation of Saadat Hasan Manto’s ‘Mera Sahib’





“It happened in 1937. The Muslim League was in its juvenility. I, too, was a young man. I wanted to do something. Anything. Besides, I was healthy and strong, and wanted to engage in a rumble. I wanted to look for trouble and pick fights. I was at an age when one longs to do something. By something, I mean to say, if not a great adventure than something!

“After this brief intro I return to the time when Ghalib was young. Don’t know if he ever participated in any political movements or not, but Yours Truly was a very active member of the Muslim League. Ghazi Corps was comprised of youths like me, and I was a sincere member of it. I stress ‘sincere’ because in those days I had nothing else.

“It was in those times that Mohammad Ali Jinnah came to Delhi. The Muslims took out a huge and a wonderful procession in his honor. Obviously, Ghazi Corps participated in this procession with full vigor. Our leader was Anwar Qureshi sahib. He was a strong young man who has been given an honor of, and is now known as, ‘Poet of Pakistan’. Our Corps’ youths were singing an anthem written by him. I don’t know if we sang in tune with each other or not, the only thing I remember is nobody cared about singing in synch.

“This historical procession started from Delhi’s historical Jamia Masjid and, roaring, passed through Chandni Chowk, Lal Kewan, Hoz Qazi, and Chawri Bazar and ended at its destination, meaning at the Muslim League office. In this historical procession people yelled “Qaid-e-Azam,” which was considered illegal, for Mohammad Ali Jinnah. A six-horse coach was provided for him. All members of Muslim League were there in this procession. There were lots of cars, motorcycles, bi-cycles and camels. But it was exceedingly well organized. Qaid-e-Azam, who by nature was a very civil and organized person, seemed very pleased to see such civility.

“I caught many of his glimpses. I don’t know my reaction the first time I saw him. Now, when I think about it and analyze it I conclude that, because sincerity is colorless, my reaction too was colorless. At that time if someone had pointed me to any man and had said ‘there is your Qaid-e-Azam,’ my adoration would have believed him. But when I saw him many times there in that crowd of people and cars, my ego was hurt: my Leader and so skinny…such a weakling! Ghalib has said: He comes to my house God blesses / Sometimes I look at him and sometimes I look at my house.

“It was his kindness and God’s blessing that he came to our house. I swear to God when I saw him and his frail body and then my strong physique, I wished either I contract or he expands. In the heart of my heart, to keep him safe from evil eye, I had prayed for him and his feeble body. The wounds he had inflicted were a common topic among his enemies.

“Circumstances change. Situation arose such that the art bug that was sleeping in me started to crawl. I felt like testing my kismet in Bombay in that field. I was attracted to drama ever since I was a kid. I figured maybe there I could show off my skills. Now, on one hand a desire to work for the nation and on the other, acting! A man is weirdly contradictory!

“I arrived in Bombay. In those days Imperial Film Company was at the top. It was difficult to get in, but somehow I got in. I worked as an extra for eight anas a day, and used to dream that I will be a top movie star one day. With God’s blessings, I am very talkative. I am not a very pleasant talker, but I am not that unpleasant either. Urdu is my mother tongue, a language the stars of Imperial Films did not know. Urdu helped me out more so in Bombay than it did in Delhi. Almost all the stars there had me read and write letters in response to those that came to them in Urdu. All this reading and writing for them did not help me, though. I was an extra and remained an extra.

“During this time I became friends with Buddhan, the very special driver of Saith Ardesher Irani, the owner of Imperial Film Company. Buddhan paid back my friendship with him by teaching me to drive a car in his free time. But his free times were brief, and I was always scared of the Saith lest he finds it out. I never really became a skillful driver. Without Buddhan I could drive the Buick on an alif-like straight road. My knowledge about the parts of the car, however, remained zero.

“I was obsessed with acting. But that was in my head. My heart still belonged to the Muslim League and Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. At Imperial Film Company, on the Kennedy Bridge, in the Bhindi Bazar, on the Mohammad Ali Road, and at the Play House, we used to have a discussion, with groups of mostly Muslims, about the behavior of the Congress. Everyone at Imperial knew that I was a Muslim Leaguey and adored Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. But it was a time when Hindus did not try to kill anyone who uttered the word “Qaid-e-Azam.” Pakistan was not yet on the horizon. I think when people at Imperial Film Company heard me praise Qaid-e-Azam they thought he was a film star and I was a fan of his. That is why one day the biggest film hero D. Blemoria said to me, ‘hey, here’s your Jinnah sahib,’ while moving Times of India towards me. I thought there was a picture of him in the newspaper. But I didn’t see it. So I said, ‘why, bhaiya, where is his picture?’ Blemoria’s John Gilbert style thin mustache expanded with a grin, ‘no photo woto, this is an advertisement.’ I asked, ‘Advertisement? What kind of advertisement?’ Blemoria took the paper back and showed me a long column and said, ‘Mr. Jinnah needs a motor mechanic who can take charge of his garage.’ I saw the ad where Blemoria finger was resting and said ‘Oh!’ as if I read the whole ad. The truth is I knew as much English as Blemoria knew Urdu.

“As I already told you, my driving was limited to driving a car on an alif-like straight road. I knew nothing about the mechanism of the car. Why does the engine start when you press the self, if some had asked me that question I would have said that because it is the law of motors; and why it sometimes doesn’t start, then I would have said that is also the law of motors and human intelligence has nothing to do with it!

“You’d be surprised to know that I noted down the address of Jinnah sahib I took from Blemoria and decided to go there the next morning. I neither thought nor expected to get the job. I just wanted to see him in his residence from up close. Therefore, taking my sincerity as a diploma, I arrived at his beautiful mansion, located near the Pleasant Road, on the Malabar Hill. Outside was a Pathan guard. He was wearing an enormous shalwar and a silk turban, was very clean, strong, and intimidating. His appearance made me very happy. I felt strangely satisfied that there was not much difference in his and my biceps, maybe of half-an-inch or so.

“There were many candidates. They were all standing with their credentials under their arms. I joined them. The funny thing was, forget about the credentials, I didn’t even have a simple driving license. My heart was beating hard just thinking I am about to meet Qaid-e-Azam any moment. I was still thinking about my heartbeat when Qaid-e-Azam appeared in the porch. Everybody turned attention. I moved to the side. With him was his tall and skinny sister whose pictures I had seen in many newspapers and magazines. On the side was his respectful assistant.

“Jinnah sahib fitted his one-glass round eyeglass on his eye and started to scrutinize the candidates. When his eye turned to me, I moved back further. Immediately his piercing voice was loudly heard, but I only heard “You.” I knew that much English. It meant “Tum.” But who was that “Tum” that he addressed? I thought it was the guy next to me, so nudging him I said, ‘I think he’s calling you.’ The guy asked hopefully, ‘me, sahib?’ Qaid-e-Azam said again, ‘No. Tum.’ His skinny but iron-like strong finger was pointing at me. My whole body trembled, ‘Ji, ji, me?’ ‘Yes.’ This three-knot-three bullet ripped through my heart and brain. My throat, which used to yell “Qaid-e-Azam,” was completely dry. I couldn’t say anything. But when he took off his monocle and said “All right,” I felt I might have said something that he heard, or he understood my feelings and said “All right” just to save me from further torture. He turned around and said something to his very handsome and healthy secretary and went inside with his sister. Totally confused, as I hurried to get out of there his assistant called me and said that the Sahib wants me present at ten o’clock tomorrow morning. I couldn’t ask the assistant why the Sahib wanted me; I couldn’t tell him that I was not at all capable and not qualified for the job for which Qaid-e-Azam put out an ad. The assistant went inside and I returned home.

“I was there again at ten the next morning. When informed I was there, the handsome and very well dressed secretary came out and, to my surprise, told me that the Sahib had selected me and wants me to take charge of the garage immediately. When I heard this I felt like spilling my guts and tell him that Qaid-e-Azam had misunderstood Yours Truly, and that I showed-up just to have a little fun; why are you putting this garage responsibility on these incompetent shoulders. But I don’t know why I couldn’t say all that. As a result, I was immediately given that responsibility and the keys were handed to me. There were four cars of different makes, and I only knew how to drive Saith Ardesher Irani’s Buick, and on an alif-like straight road at that. There were many turns to get to Malabar Hill, and Azad was going to carry not only his own self in the car. God knows how many different places for important work he had to carry this Leader to whom belonged lakhs of Muslims lives.

“I thought of dropping the keys and running away; run straight to my house, pick up my stuff, and catch the first train to Delhi. But I didn’t think this was the right thing to do. I figured tell the truth to Jinnah sahib, apologize to him, and return to the place where I really belonged. But trust me, sir, I did not get a chance to do this for the next six months.”

“How so?” I asked.

Mohammad Hanif Azad continued, “Listen to this now. The very next day I was ordered to bring the car. Those things that fly at times like these, almost flew. I decided that the moment the Sahib comes, I’d say salam to him, return the keys, and fall at his feet. But it couldn’t happen. When he came to the porch, I was so intimidated by him that the incompetent me couldn’t utter a word. Besides, Fatima sahiba was with him. To fall into someone’s feet in the presence of a woman, Manto sahib, was too much.”

I saw bashfulness in Azad’s big eyes and smiled, “khair, what happened then?”

“What happened then, Manto sahib, is that Yours Truly had to start the car. It was a new Packard. I started the car with the name of Allah, and took it out of the mansion very cleanly. When I got to the bottom of the Malabar Hill near the red light at the corner...you know what a red light is, right?”

“Yes, yes,” I shook my head affirmatively.

“Well, sahib, that became a problem. Master Buddhan had told me to just press the breaks and everything should be alright. In confusion I hit the break with such clumsiness that the car stopped with a sudden jolt. The cigar fell off Qaid-e-Azam’s hands. Fatima Jinnah jumped forward two balisht and started cursing at me. A deep fear seeped through my entire body. My whole body started to tremble. I felt dizzy. Qaid-e-Azam picked up his cigar and said something in English, which probably meant ‘lets go back.’ I obeyed the order. He asked for a new car and a driver and left for where ever he had to go. I did not get to serve him for the next six months after that incident.”

“To serve him like that?” I asked, grinning.

Azad also smiled. “Yes. You figure the Sahib would not give me another chance. There were other drivers. They served him. The assistant told the drivers the night before the car and the driver that were needed the next day. If I’d asked him about me he couldn’t give me a satisfactory answer. I found out later what was in Sahib’s mind. No one could say anything about him with any certainty, nor could ask him about such matters. He spoke only when he had to, and listened only when he needed to. That’s why, although being so close to him, I could not find out why he kept me like a useless car part.”

“It’s possible that he forgot about you,” I said to Azad.

A huge laughter came out of Azad’s throat, “No, sir, no. The Sahib never forgot anything even if he wanted to. He knew very well that Azad is breaking free bread. And, Manto sahib, when Azad breaks bread they are not little bread. Look at this built.”

I looked at Azad. I don’t know what he was like in ‘37 or ’38, but I saw a well built and a strong man sitting in front of me. You must have known him as an actor. Before the Division he worked in many films in Bombay. With his other actor friends he is barely making a living in Lahore these days. I found out last year from a friend of mine that this big-eyes, dark-skinned, well-built actor was a driver to Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah for some time. I had been, therefore, eyeing him ever since. Whenever I met him, I brought up the topic of his Master and collected his stories in my head.

With an intention to write this essay, when I listened to his stories yesterday, I saw a very interesting angle to Qaid-e-Azam’s life. What had struck Mohammad Hanif Azad most was that his Master liked physical strength. Just as Allama Iqbal liked those things that were tall and majestic, Qaid-e-Azam liked strong things. That’s why when he picked his servants, their health and physical strength was the first thing he noticed.

In those days, of which Mohammad Hanif Azad talked about, Qaid-e-Azam’s secretary was a very handsome man. All of his drivers had exemplary physical built. The guards for his mansion were also selected based on physical strength. What could be an explanation for this other than that, psychologically, although Late Jinnah was physically very weak but extremely strong from inside, he did not want to associate himself that was weak and feeble. When a person really likes something, he takes care of it real well. Qaid-e-Azam made sure all his well-built servants dressed very well. His Pathan chowkidar was ordered to dress his ethnic dress. Azad was not a Punjabi, but was at times asked to wear a Punjabi turban. This headgear is quite impressive and one looks very impressive in it. Qaid-e-Azam seemed very pleased by it and used to award Azad whenever he put one on. If one thinks about it, Jinnah being so conscious of his own frail body was his very strength of his strong and powerful life. That was evident in the way he walked, talked, ate, and thought.

Mohammad Hanif Azad told me that Qaid-e-Azam ate very little. “He ate so little I wondered how he is alive. If I were forced to eat that little my fat would’ve started to melt the next day. Despite him eating so little, four or five chickens were cooked every day. But he used to eat only a very small cup of a chick’s soup. Fruits were delivered everyday, and lots of it; but all of it used to wind up in the servants’ bellies. Every night after the dinner, the Sahib would check the list of grocery and give me a one-hundred-rupee bill for the next day’s dinner.”

“One hundred rupees everyday?” I asked Azad.

“Yes, sir, exactly one hundred rupees. And the Sahib never asked what happened to it. Whatever remained of it got divided among the servants. Sometimes thirty rupees remained, sometimes forty, and sometimes even sixty or seventy. He must have known that we kept the remainder, but he never asked for it. However, Miss Jinnah was very clever. She used to get mad at us and say we all are thieves. But the way the Sahib treated us we used to think of his things as our own. So we kept quiet when she would lose her temper at us. At times like that the Sahib would say to her sister, ‘It is all right, it is all right,’ and that would be the end of it. But once “It is all right” did not end it. Miss Jinnah kicked the cooks out, not one but both cooks. Qaid-e-Azam had two cooks at the same time, one was an expert in Hindustani food and the other in English food. Usually the Hindustani cook was a waste and did not do anything. He got to cook maybe once in months. Once in a blue moon he would get an order to cook, but Qaid-e-Azam did not really care about that food.

“When both cooks got kicked out,” said Azad, “the Sahib did not say anything. He did not interfere in his sister’s affairs. So he started eating out in restaurants. During this time we had a ball. We would take the car out for hours, hang out, come back and tell them we could not find a cook. Finally, both cooked were asked to come back by Miss Jinnah.”

If a man does not eat much, he either hates those who eat a lot, or feels very happy to see others eat a lot. Qaid-e-Azam ate very little but he was very happy to see others eat a lot. That’s the reason he used to hand out one hundred rupees everyday and forget about it. It doesn’t mean he was a spendthrift. Mohammad Hanif Azad recounts an interesting incident.

“One evening in 1939, by the Warli Beach, I was driving the white Packard very slowly with the Sahib in it. The low waves were touching the shore gently. It was a beautiful but slightly chilly evening. The Sahib was in a really good mood. I took advantage of it and started talking about Eid. He knew immediately what I was after. I saw in the rear view mirror he took his never-separating cigar out of his mouth and, his thin lips smiling, said in a broken Urdu, ‘Well, well, you suddenly have become a Muslim, try to be a little bit Hindu also.” Four days earlier Qaid-e-Azam had turned Azad into a Muslim, meaning that he had given him two hundred rupees as an award. That‘s why he advised Azad to become a little bit Hindu. But that did not affect Azad. In this Eid Azad came to the film producer Syed Murtaza Jilani to affirm his Musalmani when I saw him and further interviewed him for this story.

Qaid-e-Azam’s private life is a mystery and will remain so forever. That is the general feeling. But I think his private life was so mixed-up with his political life that he had practically no private life left. His wife had passed away long time ago and his daughter married a Parsi against his wishes. Mohammad Hanif Azad told me, “The Sahib was in a great shock because of it. He wished his daughter had married a Muslim; the skin color or the ethnic background did not matter to him. His daughter argued that if he could marry to whom ever he wanted, how come he does not grant her the same freedom.”

Qaid-e-Azam had married the daughter of a very influential Parsi man. Everyone knows that. But very few people know the Parsi man was very unhappy about it and sought revenge. Some think he conspired to have Qaid-e-Azam’s daughter marry a Parsi. When I talked to Azad about it he said, “Only Allah knows. I only know that this was the second biggest shock to him after his wife’s death. He was greatly affected when he found out that his daughter married a Parsi. His face was a mirror of his feelings, and reaction to even a simple event could be seen on his face. A simple furrow in his eyebrow could become very scary. What must have gone through his heart, only the Late One could tell. What I found out from the outside sources is that he was very disturbed. He did not meet anyone for fifteen days. He must have smoked hundreds of cigars, and must have paced hundreds of miles in his own room.

“He walked a lot when he was in deep thoughts. In the dead of the night he would pace back and forth on the hard and spotless floor for hours. In calculated steps, from here to there, and there to here, in the measured distance, his white and black, black and white, or white and brown shoes used to make a strange tick tick sound as if a clock is telling the news about its life in a consistent manner. Qaid-e-Azam loved his shoes, perhaps because they were always at his feet and moved according to him.

“After fifteen days of constant mental and spiritual disturbance, he suddenly re-emerged. There was no sign of shock on his face any longer, although the sadness had left a slight wound in his neck. But it was still straight and stiff. It did not mean, however, that he had forgotten the shock.”

When Azad started to talk about this aspect of Qaid-e-Azam’s life a second time, I asked, “How do you know he had not forgotten that shock?”

Azad answered, “Nothing in a house can be hidden from the servants. Sometimes the Sahib would order to open a trunk. In this ship-like trunk were many clothes, of his late wife and of that disobedient daughter when she was a little girl. When those clothes were taken out, the Sahib would look at them with an intense quietness. Then a sudden sadness would cover his thin and very clean face. He would quietly say ‘It is all right, it is all right,’ take off his monocle and, wiping it, would walk away.

According to Mohammad Hanif Azad, “Qaid-e-Azam had three sisters: Fatima Jinnah, Rehmat Jinnah, and I don’t remember the name of the third one who lived in Dongri. At Jopati Corner, near Chinnai Motor Works, lived Rehmat Jinnah. Her husband was employed somewhere. Their income was very modest. Every month the Sahib would give me a sealed envelope that had money in it. He would also give me a parcel that perhaps contained clothes and things. I used to deliver these to Rehmat Jinnah. Miss Fatima Jinnah and the Sahib would pay visit there every once in a while. The sister who lived at Dongri was married. All I know about her is that she was well off and did not need anyone’s help. He had a brother. The Sahib would help him out routinely, but he was not allowed in the Sahib’s house.

“I had seen this brother of Qaid-e-Azam in Bombay. One evening, in a bar, I saw a man, who looked like Qaid-e-Azam, ordering half rum. The same feature, the same backcombed hair, almost the same white striped hair. When I inquired about him I found out that he is the brother of Mr Mohammad Ali Jinnah, Ahmed Ali. I kept looking at him. Sipping it slowly, he finished that half a glass of rum in a royal manner. It cost one rupee, which he paid as if he is paying a huge amount. From his attitude it appeared as if he is sitting at a bar in Taj Mehal Hotel, not in a flimsy and a cheap one. There was a gathering of Muslims just before the historic meeting between Gandhi and Jinnah. I had a number of friends at that gathering. They told me that Jinnah was on the platform giving a speech in his typical style, and far, at a distance, his brother Ahmed Ali, wearing his monocle, was standing in such a way as if he was chewing his brother’s words.

“Billiards was the only indoor game Qaid-e-Azam liked. He would order to open the billiards room when sometimes he felt like playing the game. Although every room was cleaned every day, the servants made sure the special room he ordered to open was very clean and everything in it was set properly before he walked in. Because I played the game a little, I was allowed in that room. Twelve balls would be presented to him, he would select and the game would begin. Miss Fatima Jinnah would stand nearby. The Sahib would light up a cigar, press it between his lips, and would analyze the position of the ball he was going to hit. He would spend many minutes in his analysis. With this angle. With that angle. He would weigh the cue in his hands and move his bony fingers on it as if it were a sarangi, mumble something, and take a position; but if another angle come to his mind, he would stop, think, make sure, hit the ball with the cue, and if successful, would look at his sister with a conquering smile.

“In the game of politics, Qaid-e-Azam was as careful. He would never decide immediately. He would analyze and scrutinize each problem as if it were a billiard ball. He would move his cue to hit only if he was certain. Before he struck, he would weigh his prey with his eyes carefully. He would consider all angles. He would select the weapon according to the size of his opponent. He was not a hunter who would pick up a gun and just shoot. He would make sure not to miss. He would know his prey’s every possible weakness before he aimed.”

According to Azad, “Qaid-e-Azam stayed away from the people who came by just to meet him. He hated useless and senseless talk; but only those talks that mattered, and even that had to be very precise and concise, in both what he had to say and hear. That’s why only a few people were allowed in his special room. There was only one sofa inside the room with a small side table on which he would drop the ashes of his cigar. Across the sofa were two showcases. He kept those Qurans in them that were given to him by his fans. That room contained his personal papers as well, where they were kept safely. He would spend most of his time in that room. There was no table there. If a person was asked in that room, he would stay at the door, listen, and walk out backwards. The empty side of the sofa had his papers all over it. If he wanted to write a letter, he would have the steno come in and take dictation. His tone had certain harshness. When he spoke one felt as if he was putting emphasis on those words that did not need emphasis.”

Judging from Azad’s testimonies, it seems the psychological reason for his harshness was his physical weakness. His life was more like a smooth pond, but he lived a life of a storm. Some people say that it was his inner strength that had him live for that long, that is, his awareness of his own physical weakness.

According to Azad, the Late Bahadur Yar Jung was among Qaid-e-Azam’s best friends. “It was only him with whom he was so frank. Whenever he came to visit, both men would talk about the country and politics like true best friends. At that time, Qaid-e-Azam would separate his outer shell from his inner self. He was the only one with whom the Sahib was so frank and open. One felt as if they were childhood buddies. When they talked to each other, one could hear the loud laughter coming out of the closed doors. Other than Bahadur Yar Jung, other Muslim League leaders, such as Raja Mahmud Abad, I. I. Chundrigarh, Maulana Zahid Husain, Nawabzadah Liaquat Ali Khan, Nawab Ismail, and Ali Imam sahib used to pay visit. But the Sahib dealt with them in a professional manner, not in a frank way reserved for Bahadur Yar Jung.”

“Khan Liaquat Ali Khan must have visited quite often,” I said to Azad.

Said Azad, “Yes, the Sahib treated him as if he were Sahib’s best student. And the Khan sahib listened to him very carefully, obeyed, and carried his orders. When he was asked to pay visit, sometimes he would ask me, ‘Hey, Azad, how’s Sahib’s mood today?’ I would tell him how his mood was. If the Sahib were not in his good mood, every wall in the mansion would know it.

“Qaid-e-Azam took great care in his servants’ character and personal behavior. Just as he hated bodily dirt and smell, he hated bad behavior and character. He liked his assistant very much, but was very irritated when he found out that the assistant was having an affair with an employed girl. He could not tolerate this irritation for long. The assistant was asked to see him, and was fired. But after firing him, the Sahib started treating him as a friend.”

Tells Azad, “Once I came home at two in the morning after having some fun. Those were the days when young blood feels certain pleasure for doing bad things. I thought the Sahib would not know about me coming in so late. But somehow he did. He called me in the next day and said in English, ‘You are developing a bad character.’ Then he said in a broken Urdu, ‘Well, we’ll have you married.’ So, when he went to Bombay from Delhi for a conference, I was married per his instructions. Although I am just a Shaikh, I am fortunate that only because of him I was married in a Sadat Family. The girl’s family accepted me because Azad was a servant of Qaid-e-Azam.”

I suddenly asked Azad a question, “Ever heard Qaid-e-Azam say I am sorry?”

Azad moved his fat neck in negation, “No. Never.” Then he smiled, “If by an accident he uttered the words “I am Sorry,” I’m certain he would’ve erased those words from the dictionary forever.”

I think this spontaneous response of Azad sums up the entire character of Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah.

Mohammad Hanif Azad is alive, in this Pakistan given to him by his Qaid-e-Azam. And now, on the map of this world, this Pakistan is struggling to stay alive with the leadership of Jinnah’s best student, Khan Liaquat Ali Khan. In this free country, outside the doors of Punjab Art Pictures, near the paan store, Azad sits on a broken cot and waits for his Master. He also prays for a better time when he would get his salary in time. He is even ready to be a Hindu, as his Master once told him, provided he gets that chance back.

He was very worried when I talked to him about Qaid-e-Azam’s life. He did not have money even for a paan. When I started to make small talks to relieve him from his worries, he sighed and said, “Sahib has died. I wish I had gone on that journey with him. It would be his open white Packard. I would be at the wheel. I would drive the car very slowly to his final destination. His frail body could not tolerate jolts, you know. I’ve heard, Allah knows right or wrong, that when the airplane with him on landed in Karachi, the engine of the ambulance that took him to the Government House was not in good condition. It stopped after going only a short distance. My Sahib must have been so annoyed.”

Azad’s big eyes were full of tears.

re. veeresh: #256:
``Yasser, please answer this question to the best of your abilities:- what would be the likely country code for the telephone number of Jinnah`s direct descendants?``

You mean the ones who have a granddady who was among the top ten richest Bombayittes?!? hmmm... lemme hazard a guess... some of them actually chose to come back and live in Grandpa`s castles, and can be reached, when on vacation from NYC, Paris and Monaco on 91-XX-XXX XXXX !

No? Oh well, I know it`s something I wouldn`ve done if I had a granddaddy with al that moolah in Mumbai!

re. avenger #whatever
``and [we are expected to accpet Jinnah as] a secular saint at that. Why ? Because Wolpert, HV Hodson , Raj Mohan Gandhi , Ajeet Javed and Ayesha Jalal said so. (Now who are these people ? ) Okay we get it. Great logic. ``

umm.. forget applying logic, buddy. That would be titlting at windmills as far as you;`re concerned. But maybe a little bit of ``who`s who`` kinda knowledge, if not history itself?? C`mon... I`m sure you don`t REALLY believe that all of us here are going to completely accept the megalomaniacal, demogogic image of Jinnah-- even if it is you trying to convince us of it.

But okay, we`ll be nice and try! :)

re. mohar11 @242:
Interesting observations. I think I might have misjudged you.
Hope it`s not too late for a stomach flush? :)

re. mannyd #244: ``Mantolives : Testimonials, even unsolicitred ones, are not facts. What Jahila Ayyash, Pandit Tattopadhya or Sri Andheroo Ram had to say about Jinnah is not important to me and is not a `fact`.

True. Now, pray tell what facts any of his detractors here have brought to the table. Thanks!

re. arjun_m:
``All that matters is that most of the world has a positive image of gandhi...gandhi has an oscar winning movie and hardly anyone outside pakistan knows jinnah.``

Jeez, all those years in college and still no sign of shedding the slave mentality!?
umm.. then again, maybe that`s what they teach you to be in college.

Manto!
I envy you, man!! I wish I had the time to explain my position as passionately and at such length to a few irrelevant Indians who don`t share my views. :-)

Don`t get me wrong... I`m indebted to you big time for an increase in my knowledge on history and politics, particularly of details and nuances that i might never have come upon... Keep that up, man.. but there is a limit to how much energies one must spend playing the game of the opposition. Some of them obviously get off on just this kind of cyber warfare. I would imagine you`ve got better stuff in your life to get off on :)

manto
///...Jinnah never gave in to the ``popular whims``....//

Good for him[he wasn`t fishing for votes, anyway]. But Speaking language of masses is a necessity for any proclaimed leader of the said masses - it`s not just a ``popular whim``. If you don`t even speak tha language the masses understand - your claim to leadership over them is goes against common sense. That`s what I meant.

+++

///....Whether or not there is a positive image... Gandhi`s actions in my opinion are far more indicative of demagoguery....///

Exactly. Just because gandhi was praised to high heavens by all and sundry doesn`t mean he didn`t commit worst kind of chicanery. Similarly, Just because some commentators/ historians didn`t talk about Jinnah`s demagoguery, doesn`t mean it wasn`t there. I just showed you one. There are several such examples easily discernible [to an un-biased eye] in Mr Jinnah`s life story.

Of course you don`t see it. Because you worship him. But that`s OK. I want you to worship Jinnah, despite everything. Just like I want Indians to respect gandhi, despite his faults.

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Yasser, please answer this question to the best of your abilities:- what would be the likely country code for the telephone number of Jinnah`s direct descendants?

And what does that have, if anything, to do with whatever Jinnah may or may not have said?

Reflect, chew on it, and then respond.

And then realise that your Biggest Hero was also an Indian!!

But what is wrong with that, anyway?

mohar11...

Jinnah never gave in to the ``popular whims``.... when the crowd put pressure on him to use the word ``Mahatma`` Jinnah still used Mr. Gandhi ... This is what I mean.


Mannyd...

I have quoted historians writing about the fact. You are welcome to stick to your narrowminded biases...


Arjunm

Whether or not there is a positive image... Gandhi`s actions in my opinion are far more indicative of demagoguery if indeed that is the road we want to send our founding fathers down.

As for Jinnah... since he was no demagogue, he didn`t crave publicity. He did what he thought was right... and he didn`t rule out the possibility that he could be wrong. This made him human... he never laid any claims to being a ``Mahatma``. That makes him stand out and stand above others. Still many many years later... Jinnah manages to stir up controversy and wins the title of ``greatest ever south asian leader`` despite emphatic APPEALS by Indian TV to vote for Gandhiji...

They say dust settles and demagoguery settles with dust... well have you thought about why there is so much devotion to Mr. Jinnah amongst his people even today though they may not follow his ideas... why Gandhiji`s own people have rejected Gandhi?

I don`t wish to make a comparison... but let us learn to be fair.

-YLH

mohar11...

Jinnah never gave in to the ``popular whims``.... when the crowd put pressure on him to use the word ``Mahatma`` Jinnah still used Mr. Gandhi ... This is what I mean.


Mannyd...

I have quoted historians writing about the fact. You are welcome to stick to your narrowminded biases...


Arjunm

Whether or not there is a positive image... Gandhi`s actions in my opinion are far more indicative of demagoguery if indeed that is the road we want to send our founding fathers down.

As for Jinnah... since he was no demagogue, he didn`t crave publicity. He did what he thought was right... and he didn`t rule out the possibility that he could be wrong. This made him human... he never laid any claims to being a ``Mahatma``. That makes him stand out and stand above others. Still many many years later... Jinnah manages to stir up controversy and wins the title of ``greatest ever south asian leader`` despite emphatic APPEALS by Indian TV to vote for Gandhiji...

They say dust settles and demagoguery settles with dust... well have you thought about why there is so much devotion to Mr. Jinnah amongst his people even today though they may not follow his ideas... why Gandhiji`s own people have rejected Gandhi?

I don`t wish to make a comparison... but let us learn to be fair.

-YLH

#238 by Mantolives
I am impressed by your faith in Jinnah and your defense of that faith in various forums. I only wish much of what u say were also true.
Jinnah was no doubt incorruptible but his ideas of what is good for muslims was plain wrong. We know he was wrong today but at that time (when he was fighting for a muslim homeland) it appeared to be the only right thing to do.
Jinnah gave up his ideal of hindu-muslim unity and the passion with which he worked for that cause when he saw Congress turn from an elitist movement (with with he was confortable) to a grassroots popular movement spearheaded by Gandhi (all of which horrified Jinnah). Jinnah`s disenchantment with India began with Gandhi`s ascendance on the political scene. He clearly despised Gandhi`s mixing of religion with politics. Gandhi`s brand of politics has done much damage to India of today when ``kaam roko``, ``hartals``, ``gheraos`` have all become very common. But Gandhi did something that Jinnah could not. He mobilized the common man into a force that the British started to respect and fear. Jinnah was to use religion in politics later in his life when he gave order for Direct Action, realizing by then that nothing stirs the common man in India more than the call of religion.
In the end, people will judge leaders depending on the kind of legacy they have left behind. I am not sure that Jinnah would recognize the Pakistan he helped create. Pak has also today become a terrorist haven, a nuclear prolierator and much reviled and closely watched by much of the world. I am sure Jinnah would not have liked this either.
Sridhar

Tahmed #235:

Please do not read the following. It is going to be a strain on your heart and mind. Could be fatal.

``..the cowardly little men who jump to Monkey King Modi`s bidding when he tells them to attack defenseless families living in his state``

Provide a source for that allegation. You read it in Farzana`s article, a newspaper article or just dreamed it up? Do you take mind bending drugs, drop acid or have you always been like this since birth?

Where did Mr. Modi bid cowardly little men to attack defenceless families? What was Mr. Modi`s exact quip? Let us compare that with Jinnah`s call for `Direct Action`. Unlike Jinnah, who never had to ask for Hindu or Sikh votes, Modi is not a king and depends on Muslim votes also to stay in power.

There was a lawsuit filed by Paki and Gujrati Muslims against Mr. Modi in an English court of law. It was thrown out for lack of evidence. If you have uncovered any tangible proof, bring it out and give it to Farzana. She will run with it.

No money for your `time` though from me.

Tahmed: PLEASE DO NOT READ THE FOLLOWING SERIOUS QUESTION:

When you took the self administered IQ test and scored 115(or was it 125), did you cheat? Did your ten year old daughter help you with the `Logic` part of the test?