Myths about the Golden Age of Islam

HP/159 - lighten up.

I know people who`ve been beaten up with sticks when they were kids who seem to even then appreciate that others can have a life, even if they don`t.

This is a free society, and you need to appreciate that I do have a claim over commenting about Pakistan as well as having a claim over Pakistan without having to live there if I don`t want to. Just like a fairly large number of other ex-pats.

In other words, sorry, but you are just going to have to R-E-A-D M-Y L-I-N-E-S.

HP Mian:
``I can accept your being anti Pakistan as it is political but you have no claim over Pakistan. It is non sense and snap out of it.``

Your children will be US citizens of Pakistani origin but still have a moral and ethical claim to go back to Pakistan because they were not consulted before you decided to give them birth here.

The creation of Pakistan did not give Pakistan any right to expel minorities, who had lived there for thousands of years. There was no agreement to exchange minority populations. Not only Pakistan failed to live by the express promise to provide equal rights and protection to all its citizens, it never provided the compensation for 10000 square miles of private lands owned by Sikh and Hindu Pakistanis. Just because you say so does not negate Veeresh`s claim to own his ancesstoral land.

About 5 million Hindu and Sikhs were thrown out of Pakistan in less than six months. How many Muslims ended up in Pakistan after Gujrat? What did Jinah do that Modi failed to emulate? Killing 2000 per year will take about 4000 years to cleanse Gujrat. Do you recommend anything?

Re:bbabu#147

Your list of reasons for the backward state of Indian muslims is a familiar one. But frankly speaking, it is going out of date. Partition happened nearly 60 years back. Are we still going to talk about pre-partition conditions of muslims and departure of muslim elites in 2004? Was there so much difference in IQ of the muslim elites versus the masses? I don`t think so. I think the only reason for the backwardness of Indian muslims, especially in the north, is the foolish policies of successive Congress governments that mixed religion with politics while dealing with Indian muslims. Instead of adopting a true secular outlook, the Congress governments have wrongly kept pandering to the mullahs in the Indian muslim commuinity. Indian muslims have been encouraged to think of their identity only in terms of religion and religious symbols. It is a mindset of ``they are different from us, they only care about religion``. Just keep their mullahs happy who can control the ordinary muslims and also deliver votes en masse. This pandering has not occured in south India, and the situation is a lot different there.

While we all control our indivdiual destinies, government policies do matter. If the government keeps supporting religious or quasi-religious organizations, how can the ordinary muslim change his state of mind to think progressively? It is high time that the government actively encourages secular education for all Indian muslims. That may involve opening more schools, colleges, providing scholarship money, women`s education etc. All madrassahs should be completely upgraded as proper schools or closed down. In addition, the government can actively provide loans and credit programs to encourage enterpreneurship among muslims and reduce unemployment. Some of this is happening on its own, we just need to accelearte it and completely bring muslims into the national mainstream.

bbabu #158 As I just wrote to anilkv, I agree that state governments - even ones with blood on its hands, like the Modi government - should not be too easily dismissed. They are after all the elected representatives of the people (however misguided the state electorate may be). In Pakistan, we have had democracy subverted throughtout the 1990`s as a result of the ease with which the President was able to dismiss elected governments.

However, in order to ensure certain minimum rights to the individual (including the right to be not killed by mobs!!), the federal government should be able to bring in criminal charges against individuals (modi and his henchmen in this case). I am sure you will join me in hoping that respect for the rights of the individual will one day be considered the Supreme National Interest (to use musharaff`s favorite words to describe what is really his Supreme Personal Interest) in both India and Pakistan.

anilkv #156 Your point is well taken. And I think it makes sense to require parliamentary approval for dismissing a state government. However, the federal government can take steps within the constitution to promote the safety of ordinary people within Gujerat. I wonder, for example, if there are laws that make it a federal crime to promote communal hatreds (similar to the hate laws in the US, for example, but broader in scope given the broader nature of such crimes in India) - the federal government could then use those laws to bring criminal charges even against elected officials.

rsridhar #145 After struggling with Gandiv, it is refreshing to read your acknowledgement of the problems in Gujerat. Despite Gujerat, I am sure that democracy will continue to gain strength over time in India, and will thus serve as a strong positive influence (through example) in the political development of Pakistan as well.

It is good to see the Supreme Court taking the case of the Gujerat killings out of Gujerat state courts, although I agree that one should not hold too much hope that justice will be done in any timely manner (and as they say, justice delayed is justice denied). But at least, things moved in the right direction.

This is actually a somewhat similar situation in the US back in 1957: The Arizona government refused to implement a Supreme Court order for school desegregation (in the landmark Brown vs. Topeka Board of Education decision of 1954), and the state government called in the Arizona National Guard to prevent black students from attending school. In response, President Eisenhower sent in the 101st airborne troops who faced of the state troops and escorted the black students to school.

While the situation in Gujerat is basically much worse - people have been killed in the thousands for the crime of being of the wrong religion - I think the principle is the same: where the state government oppresses minorities, the national government must step is - with national armed forces if necessary.

Gandiv: You have chosen to ignore what I said, and to simply repeat what I have already shown to be absurd. I have nothing more to add.

#159 by HP

If Indians in general are more corrupt as per your figures, why is India (90th) rated higher than Pakistan (129th) (the highest ranked country is the least corrupt) on the Corruption Perception Index (CPI) 2004?

#159 by HP

[95% of Indian politicians are corrupt.
95% of the judiciary is corrupt.
95% of the police and other Law enforcements are corrupt to the core.
95% of the population is communal.
95% District Administrations are corrupt.
70% of the country is extremely poor.
70% of the population still lives in villages with out basic civic amenities.
80% of the population still uses animal driven mode of transportation]

Just where do you get your figures from? The cardinal rule when you toss about figures is to at least cite a source. Otherwise, where is the credibility?

HP is talking out of his ar$e as usual. 23% of Indians live in extreme poverty...not 70%. Also , poverty in India decreases by 1% every year since the economy was opened up in 1991. So we have already seen a reduction in below poverty line population in India from as high as 41% of the population in 1990 to the present 23%.

Which is particularly amazing as the population has increased by 20% in the same period - so reduction in poverty is happeing in INdia inspite of corresponding increase in population.. And at this rate this should go down further to 10% by 2015. This is a fascinating story that the likes of HP have missed in their hatred for India - 20 million people in India rising out of poverty every year. This is unprecented in the history of the world.

HP should be more concerned about Pakistan where 36% of the population lives below poverty line and increasing every year.

The measure of how far India has come can be gathered by the sale of mobile phones in India. India has the world`s fastest growing market for mobile phones. 55 million mobile phones have been sold in India already - which is extraordinary given that mobile phones were introduced in India only in the year 2000. And it is estimated that 50 million more willl be sold in the next 2-3 years.

#153 ,

Taqat-e-Parvez...

Obviously simple sarcasm is wasted on a deluded fool like you....

Regarding your assertion that India spends more in a day on Siachen than Pakistan spends in a month , even if true , that really is no big deal. India is lot richer than Pakistan. India has 11 times the economy of Pakistan and only spends 2.5% of its GDP on defence - unlike Pakistan which spends 8-9% of its GDP on defence.....

Regarding your comment about poverty in India , it is nothing like what it is in Pakistan. According to the UNDP and the World Bank , 36% of Pakistan`s population lives in extreme poverty , i.e. , below the poverty line. So concentration of poverty is much higher in Pakistan than in India - where 23% of the population lives below poverty.

Veeresh...

Now you`ve completely lost your mind.

Just apologize for your bad behavior instead of coming up with excuses....

#157 by taqat-e-parvaaz on January 5, 2005 11:27pm PT

[the fact on siachen is that its an issue that could have been resolved many years ago, but india refuses to solve it, for some odd reason.]

Funny how you say Pakistan controls Siachen and then expect India to solve it. Hahaha!

FYI, Kargil belonged to Pakiland till 1971, so Pakistan holding a few peaks means diddly squat. But then, Pakis have always been satisfied with the few crumbs India allows them to get away with, because they know they cannot ask for more.

[its been a nightmare for india to even consider solving this issue, despite the fact that millions of indians go naked on the streets of calcutta and in other cities (`india shining` huh).]

Millions of Indians going naked isn`t exactly Pakistan`s problem and Pakiland isn`t exactly prospering, so why are you bothered about us? If anything, you must worry about the fate of Pakis whose every move is being watched by the FBI and CIA. Every year, more and more Pakis are slipping underthe poverty line, so very soon Karachi may best Kolkata.

[if anything, indian policy has backfired strategically.]

Not exactly, India`s economy is booming and growing by leaps and bounds. If anything, it is Pakistan`s policies, every single one of them, that has backfired. First, illusions of strategic depth were shattered. Next, the Taliban U-turn. Then, the Kashmir Jihad was wound up. So much for Paki strategy!

[india spends the same amount in one day that pakistan spends in one month in siachen.]

The only difference is, India can easily afford to spend the amount that Pakiland spends in 1 month, while Pakiland struggles to spend 1/30th of what India does.

[so back off it.]

Why don`t you ask your brave SSG Commandos to try and take back Siachen? Oh wait, Pakistan already controls Siachen. Hahahaha!!!!!

Re:avenger

Cool down, man!! You will pop an artery on chowk. Our Kashmir policies have been a joke for the past 60 years. Except for stationing huge number of troops, we have done didley squat to integrate Kashmir with India. The whole jihad thing started in 1989. Before that, we had ample opportunity to completely integrate Kashmir just like any other state in India and our record was a miserable failure. Forget about industrialization, we have not even managed to lay out a railway line that goes into Kashmir valley. Even today it is easier to access Kashmir from Pakistan side rather than India!! The borders including the LOC were unprotected until this year!! It was only a couple of years back that we held the first free elections. How many Kashmiris ever leave Kashmir to live, study or work outside Kashmir? Isn`t it quite pathetic if you compare with other parts of India?

Our enemy in Kashmir is not the Kashmir muslims but the jehadis who form a small fraction of the population. The jehadis have terrorised the pandits and the muslims as well. Hence, they should be shown no mercy. But we got to win over the ordinary Kashmiris and make them stakeholders in India.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts