Reforming Pakistan’s Universities -- II

Great article.

1. India and China have made it very clear that they want their unis to rival the US`s ivies.

2. Pakistan has lost many of its citizens due to an economy and culture that wouldnt hire professional women about 30 years ago..i.e. of a prof couple, the husband would get the job, while the wife`s doctorate was useless.

3. Many of those same people became American citizens after Pakistan`s violent treatment of Bangladesh.

I agree with Dr. Hoodbhoy. The problem of universities is not lack of funding. It is lack of sincere people with vision. HEC is experimenting by trying to bring back Pakistani scientists and engineer working abroad by offering them handsome salaries. Feel sorry to say that it will not help at all. LUMS (The prestigious Lahore University of Management Sciences) groomed its faculty of Computer Science with same misconception. Come here and you will find well qualified professionals with PhD degrees from eminent world universities and developed research labs with generous external funding from various unfortunate so called government R&D organizations. But it is no different place than any other government sector university with locally qualified teachers rather it is worse in the sense that here for same output as of public universities they are wasting far more money. Yes it is glamorous; this is absolutely right due to good marketing strategy. The people here with foreign qualifications are even more disinterested in doing research than their counter parts in public sector universities with limited funding. Point is foreign qualification does not change the dishonesty and selfish attitude that is deeply rooted in our blood. Politics, diplomacies and leg pulling is also as common here as any where else. LUMS is conducting special tests to enroll as much HEC scholars as possible just to make more money without enhancing facilities. Even foreigners with good qualification cannot change us without a culture change and this cannot be done with in days. Perhaps what ever Dr. Atta is doing is with good intentions but I will suggest him that this is the time to do some research on actual outcomes of his moves. A research is also needed on attitude of our society. This will definitely help to make focused plans that can bring real change. Thanks! fnahmad@gmail.com

Although Dr Hoodbhoy is a sincere to the cause but he is too much pessimistic. All is not that dark. Things are gradually improving.

I have strong reservations about Hoodbhoy`s point of view over suitabilty of GRE for sole criterion of selection of PhD students, allowance religious and political activities at university campuses in Pakistan and his tale of corruption at intermediate level as compared to university entrance tests.

I although agree that most important thing needed is to promote performance culture in the universities. and he failed to mention even a single strong point mentioning how this performance culture can be promoted if he suggests us so many ``don`ts``. He should come forward with a solid criteria to assess the performance of a researcher.

The foundations of education, whether Madarsah type or the western convent type, are based on honesty and trust in society. it is not about salaries. Even in US, China, India or europe, the academic gets paid far less than the industry standard. Oh yeah atleast in some part a love for the profession. Exceptions of course are always there. The rest will come gradually on it`s own. Putting money into salaries, when there is no trust, will attract the wrong kind and corrupt the system more.

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Great article, Hoodbhoy Sahib.
``It is time to decide whether we are serious about education being something more than merely giving out certificates. Do we want to build institutions for creating knowledge and helping students to be informed, critical, active citizens? Or not?``
I totally agree with you. I would also like to point out that as it is right now, most Pakistani students in US universities are averse to the idea of taking classes just for the sake of learning. I remember, when I was an undergraduate at Louisiana State, there was not even a single South Asian student except myself in the Philosophy and Religious Studies Department or South Asian Studies. The only SouthAsian students I saw in any classes were in introductory level Intro to Religion courses and even that to fulfill the General Education Requirements. All the Pakistani International students lived on one side of the campus near the mosque, and all the Indian International students lived on the opposite side of the campus. They never mingled much and each ethnicity stayed within their own group. Sometimes, I felt that these Pakistani and Indian students were leaving the university with BA`s, MA`s and even PhD`s but it seemed that they were still the same people with the same thought processes as they were when they first arrived in America. They had not broadened their mind, eschewed critical thinking. They had their degrees, an a means to an end of finding a job, but had they been educated ?, well that is unknown. I would like input of Chowk members on this issue.
Asim Khan

well once again what a nice topic to read......absoulotly great........you discribed the present situation of pakistani education all over no matter it relates to upper education or just lower level either........(upper level=about post graduation or more and lower level=under graduate)Now i got one thing by your article that you ain`t happy with the present situtaion so no one here niether me.......but now what do you say..........the HEC board should transfer to AGHA KHAN and there shouldn`t be the name of punjab uni as in graduation level or post graduation...........no i will never wish for that neither you nor anyone else here........so what can we do if we don`t want this happen.......we only can ask the GOVT. to choose the best men by test as for any work no matters it relates to any board office,faculty,accountant or even to poen........they should heigher the qualified the staff because they deserve.I don`t vote for punjab uni neither for HEC board because they are the cause to ruin the life of many people i give you some real example which happened with many of my friend in both cases inter level and graduation level......
First one of my friend decided to took the private exams as he couldn`t bear the expenditure of college studies either private or govt..because there is no scholarship for any poor student.They think that we are die to print the currency.........anyway its other topic now come back where i was...........so he just bought the forms and submitted that before month .......But he made some mistakes during filling the forms but loot at the condition of board they didn`t even bother theirself to send any notification and when my friend listened by someone examz are after 2 days and when he went to the board office he was just ruined every corner of that shity place....but he didn`t mind at all because he was willing to get further education so he did all what they said.......and after all stupids formalities when he got rollnumber slip in his hand he was shocked that he wrote of forms for economics paper and it was written civics on it.....and the paper had done 2 days back he made them confess but they said like this........(ab damag na kha or yahan say chalta ban) english translation
don`t be headache get the hell outta here.........and now what he could he do..........nothing alas!
now listen about the punjab uni......He didn`t send the roll number slip of many friends and unfortunately one of my friend was there too.........so he went there and he asked them what hell are you doing you didn`t send me roll number slip and they said after checking his name by slip which he gave to him that you didn`t pay the money for exams.....now you guys see how the hell it can happen?can any pakistani do any work without taking money or anything response nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo........never...........
But still i am in favor of HEC and now its govt. responsibility to change the system,change the people heighered the educated people for the post because they deserve that .........
now one more example i give you...I might be wrong with this but for me i am right.......
I went to take the admission exam for MBA program for punjab uni......and i passed the exams........and my matriculation marks are not bad my inter level number are not bad and same to graduation and do mind it that i did icom from punjab college and bcom aswell........so when i went to check the result i was shocked to see that my name isn`t in for the interview and the person who wasn`t got that good number like i did for any stage nor in inter nor in graduation and neither in admission test but he got the admission because he had the experience for 40 years.Now you guys got to analyze it...............average of pakistani is almost 50 to 55 does this man deserve to get admission or me............
but still i favour for PU and HEC but what can i say except make request to people who have access to govt. please tell them to change all the system

Interesting article.

The previous head of the HEC, Dr. Shams Lakha (head of Aga Khan) was on Canadian TV the other day. Seemed like a very competent person. Certainly running a very good university. I met Dr. Ata once in San Jose. Seemed very competent also.

Perhaps as a first step to reforming our education system, we should have a rule that any professor who writes an article on this site, takes the trouble to answer the replies from various interactors. Our universities aren`t going to get any better if its, ``activist professors`` cannot find the time to interact with repliers.............

The author mentioned ``an intense and growing controversy`` in the first paragraph, but never elaborated on what the controversy actually was. Was it just fake degrees, or was there more to it?

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re:#22 by ShoreSahib
This article is about the state of University education in Pakistan. Let us just discuss that.
If Pak govt (or shall i say the dictator of Pak) recruits Indians to teach in Pak universities, response (especially from the North) may be good provided the payscale is good. I am not sure if quality of teachers would be as good as in the west. It is my belief (based on personal experience) that critical thinking is lacking among Indian teachers in India.
If pak wants to create good world class universities, it should try and replicate the MIT or the Harvard model. IIT s in India were initially modelled after MIT. Such universities need to be autnonomous ie have their own dedicated cadre of technocrats and bureaucrats who are not on the govt payroll and who do not take orders from the govt (in Pak`s case, it would be the Army brass and the feudals). Such intitutions should also have financial freedom.
India did manage to create some institutions which have excelled because they are autonomous. eg IITs, IIMs, II Science, PGI Chandigarh, AIIMS. Most of the rest are rotting away due to interference by the politicians and bureaucrats.
can Pak create such institutions then? I am not sure i know the answer.
Sridhar

Hoodbhoy

Agree.

But the real silver lining is the debate that rages on in the country on almost every fundamental issue. There is an internal energy to stand up to taboos & status quo. This chaos and an unashamed acceptance is good for the system.

nhk

mirror to the blind.....!!!!

No offense, but I am not sure to how many indian regional universities you are exposed to. Not every one in a country needs to study at the level of MITs. I am not sure if India or for that matter USA can afford that. Apart from what ever research they do, one of the main missions of the top universities is to train the national educational man-power i.e. most importantly manpower to run other univ.s whose graduates far outnumber those from IITs and IIScs, and who are the backbone for the indian industry. It is similar in US too. Most of the faculty in the mid-lvel univ have done their higher education at the tier-1 univ like harvard, standford, MIT, etc. In india, most of the faculty in tier-2 univ have their phds from IISc and IITs, and also some foriegn univ.

The tier-2 regional univ, like univ of bombay, anna, kolkata, hyderabad, banglore RRC etc are not that bad either, and most importantly they stay and help run the system. And also some of the local univ have some surprising niche areas. For example mysore univ has close affiliation with the central food research inst. and the central sericulture inst. And due to the large collaboration of japanese with central sericulture (silk worms) inst, there is some good research going on, and the only place in india where this research is taking place as far as i know. I am sure the geniuses at IITs have better things to do than worry about silk worms.

Also, It`s all a system of top-down percolation. The second level univ will not become better, until the first level univ become even better. Otherwise I do not where you are going to get the high-quality manpower that is needed to run them, and where all the good students are going to come from for these univs. Even in the US, the number of good research univ are about 20-30, and this mainly is because of the good manpower coming into the US as foriegn students. Otherwise even US on it`s own doesn`t have the manpower to run good research at about half its top univ. And for all the broohaha, there is a large section of indian populace that is completely inward looking and unaware of the national scene, and all this software and high tech doesn`t exist for them. i am from a brahmin family from hyderabad with parents and uncles who went to schools and colleges in the 1950s-60s, and until my 12th class, I didn`t even know such a thing as IITs existed. And this was in the late 1980s. Can you imagine what the situation would be in the interior districts and towns. For all those people, You don`t need more IIT standards, what you need there are institutions which will give reasonable education and skills to think rationally to solve life`s problems.

Top univ require three imprtant things, highly qualified tachers, high caliber students, and loads of money. I think if pakistan can develop a couple of top rung univ, and focus more on mid-level regional univ. by tapping into the graduates from top univs that would be a great achievement. But for this, dedication over atleast a decade or two is required.

And can we please stop this cr*p about all the IIT stuff. It would be a shame on the millions of talented and the nameless hardworking billion indians to say that our lives would be worth less without these inst. half of whose grads are anyway mostly settled in the west. Sure these are good places, and they have many really good students and teachers, and they have done some good stuff but there is more to india and our lives than these institutes. Let`s not blow the tops and let`s learn to keep some proportion. Again rsridhar no offence intended in writing this.

``...............we should have a rule that any professor who writes an article on this site, takes the trouble to answer the replies from various interactors. Our universities aren`t going to get any better if its, ``activist professors`` cannot find the time to interact with repliers............. ````

lolz Romair...cat on a hot tin roof...loz

Nazarhayatkhan:

#28 by nazarhayatkhan on January 5, 2005 8:01pm PT

``But the real silver lining is the debate that rages on in the country on almost every fundamental issue. There is an internal energy to stand up to taboos & status quo. This chaos and an unashamed acceptance is good for the system. ``

A leadership that facilitates such debates in a country.... has to be a good and sincere leadearship...which will make the difference. May be Pakistan is finally arriving too.

Anil