The Idea of Chowk

``I have never really like muzzles`` said Nawab.
``Neither do I`` replied wondering where this conservation was going to take us.
``Easy for you to say, you are not the one wearing them``.
I squirmed, clearly this was not going to be an easy conversation.
``Well you know that the Council does have certain restrictions on noise levels``
``So?``
``So when they receive a complaint they have to act upon it``.
``What`s that got to do with muzzling dogs``.
``Well they can fine dog owners on the spot, you know``.
``You could have asked me first`` and that hurt expression on the face again.
``I had and you said something about the freedom of expression``.
``Well considering freedom of expression is enshrined in your constitution I see no reason to curb it``.
``Yes but if it disturbs other people then you can be asked to tone it down``.
``And a muzzle is what `toning it down` means?``
I did not feel like getting into another dogfight so I walked towards my computer.
``So does the internet still permit free speech?``
``Of course it does, what a sily question``.
``So why are my interacts being filtered out? And who recommends that these interacts to be filtered out``
I knew just what the problem was.
``Don`t tell me you have got been filtered out``.
``Well that is to say..grrr..``
``So have you been `filterd out as per recommendation` or just `Filtered Out Forever`?``
``Hey its their loss not mine``
Thank you Chowk Staff - you fine ``keepers of morals`` and ``upholders of free speech as long as that free speech meets your recommendations``. Keep up the good work there is an extra bone coming...er sorry wrong reward.

Dear Chowk Admin:

I would like to extend a warm hug to you for the following new feature:

[*** Interact filterd out as per recommendation *** ]

Thank you for paying attention to your readership and their suggestions.

Take Care

Chowk staff,

some sane and serious suggestion. I think u should ban anyone that uses cussing or profanity or vulgarity. Besides that there should be no censorship or rating - NONE. Before u ban, an interactor may present his/her case. After the final decision, Tell them they are not welcome, and NO TRESSPASSING or u `ll shoot them in the rear....and get some guard dogs. he he.

Having said that,

I don`t know how long it takes to delete a person....or ban his ISP....but i am assuming it takes less time than for them to re register....they will finally get tired and give up.

Most of the rejected posts in my case were because someone did not like a critique of a political figure. or another political stance....this kind of censorship is wrong.

CHOWK-STAFF:
what do you say to this?

Please look into providing a `DELETE`` feature into the inter-acts. If an inter-act is not upto guide-lines then the interactor may please be requested to delete that post and repost it.

If that interactor repeatedly refuses to comply ( say three times) then it would be appropriate to suspend that interactor for a specific or indefinite period. You would, then, be justified to exercise your prerogative after such a `civilised` warning.

This would also help `remorse` situations.

Having done that, then you can get rid of this `filtered-out` system.

I strongly believe that `rating` `filtering` smacks of colonialism. Please act as a `speaker` of the house , rather than `crowd controller`.

It is the ones who have deep-seated convictions & beliefs who always have nuggets ensconced in their rants & raves. Sometimes they themselves are not aware of their own profoundness because they have a passion in them.

As much as I disagree with Freddy-Krueger types, I am not happy to see them `filtered`out.

How come whining is mostly by a particular gender (or their limp-wristed friends)

Re: # 250

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Re: # 249 ``or link all their known nicks in the back end so that whenever they post anything under one of their multi-nicks that interaction or post will appear under all their known nicks...this will render the `ignore` feature on unplugged truly useful ``
And how do we do this? You think people give the same details when registering?

ban ban ban
If chowk is starting to remind me of a catholic school with the apple polishers running amok ``miss miss he is saying bad words to me``
It is still a pretty good forum even with the colourful speech. The holier than thou saint is equally guilty of being rude and uncouth to other interactors.

Oh yes bring back Scout...

Q. What do you call a person with multiple nicks?
A. A schizophrenick.

Re: # 246

ditto!

Chowk Admin: Keeping that in mind, I recommend that you ban the ids in post # 229 and #230 for good. HP`s suggestion to have a subscription service introduced is something to look into. If you decide to take that route then please do care to create a poll and solicit input from the readers, writers and interactors to provide their favorite charities` names.

Thanks.

#248:

i asked you on the other thread where you repeated this post and am asking you here also...what do you mean by ...use of a single handle by multiple people....?

as for your other assertion...the original twelve head has been effectively banished...if it helps;)

Re: # 246


at the same time you should ban the use of a single handle by multiple people. This is happening on chowk. Semnatics, syntax, etc are dis-similar that sometimes its frightening. The reactions from the same nic are so varied you wonder if your talking to the same person.

However, I know for a fact you cannot ban multiple nics. I know of other boards where this has been gotten round. You just cant do it - even using cookies. This is the world of Window where the same machine can be used by many people so setting up n-accounts on one machine and getting n-nics is not impossible.

ps:

let me rephrase this:

...in the interest of further levelling the playing field i would suggest you ask folks here to select and stick to one nick only...and if they are found contravening this voluntary restriction than just de-register their multiple nicks...or link all their known nicks in the back end so that whenever they post anything under one of their multi-nicks that interaction or post will appear under all their known nicks...this will render the `ignore` feature on unplugged truly useful

attention chowk editors

...one more area that needs your attention is the use of more than one nick ...

...while this is not a major issue here on main page yet, this twelve-head syndrome is causing mayhem on unplugged...and i suspect those with multiple nicks try to out-muscle and overwhelm other unsuspecting interactors...

...in the interest of further levelling the playing field i would suggest you ask folks here to select and stick to one nick only...and if they are found contravening this voluntary restriction than just de-register their multiple nicks...

...this will make life a little easier for an overwhelming number of chowkies with only one registered nick...

rgds

t

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Chowk staff,

thanks for listening to the interactors,

my concern is, some interactors are being filtered out by `chowk filter`. is this a permanent thing? and why?

Re: # 242 i agree with him/her

Wow! so now ``chowk staff`` has come back to its senses.
SR`s (#241) suggestions are worth considering.
1. If there has to be a rating than all interactors should start from a common rating of ``unrated``.
2. Writer`s ratings should be kept separate from interactor`s ratings. Several good authors have shown themselves to be poor interactor. Many don`t even interact. Interactor`s rating should be based on peer review and that too based on a minimum quorum. Feedback from twleve-heads can be filtered through some logic.
3. Chowk should list all editorial members of its ``chowk staff``.

Chowk staff, what do you mean by filtered out indefinitely and filtered out forever? In the latter case, Scout has only responded in cases of extreme provocation. Are there different rules for men and women on chowk?
About Sameer, I do not have to tell you what an intelligent contributor he has been. On what grounds has he been filtered out?
Why do this when in the past you did nothing about individuals like Honorable Syed and took such tardy action against a certain multi-nicked individual? Why these double standards that replicate our society`s double standards?

O dear, Oh Dear Me, the scores are all gone... what happened?

Just as I was beginning to bask in the glory of my above mediocre score, it was gone again and all interact responses were again uncategorized.

First, to all those who make noises about democracy, awami raj, and rights on Chowk (or any other website) forget The Golden Rule

The golden Rule, of course, says: He who has the gold, makes the Rules. PERIOD...

Second, the rating idea is a good one in its core, but hard as hell to impliment in a rational and effective manner.

I cannot pretend to have the best solution but here are some ideas that may have been useful to apply.

1) Let the rating system be based on the concept of ``Peer Review``...

2) Let only verified registered users cast a ballot... ie, give a rating score.

3) Start every one with an uncategorized rating or some initial rating based on the editors` initial assessment. So thus many, many will be uncategorized and aome will have an initial score...

4) The starting score does not start changing with the first cast ballot. No. It should have a minimum quorum requirment of, say, ten or 15 ``click`` votes before an aggregate acore appears. Only one registered user could make one click per message.

5) There should be two numbers running before each message. A ``general score`` for the interactor giving his/her overall score as computed by the system at large, and a second, for the particular message, IF that message has been scored by a required number of readers.

This scoring system will be slow to evolve but will reflect the collective prejudices of the general readership somewhat more accurately. The scale should be from ``uncalassified``, to 0 to 10...

Most will remain ``unclassified`` for a long time. That is better than being a zero or -1...

...SR

Re: # 236

``I agree that i could have been more refined in my criticisms...i will try to do in future.``

I believe that`s all Chowk Staff is asking from its interactors.

TEHREEK-I-UNPLUGGISTAAN

faisaluno:
cc. Saima Shah/Safwan Shah!


Thank you.

Some new measures have been taken by the Martial-Law authorities at Front-page but they have still not relinquished power.

The power MUST come through the Public, the awaam, the common-people, the riff-ruff--you & me!

After posting the guide-lines, there are two options left to those who run their business. Either to let the offending/offended interacts battle it out or ignore each other OR the OFFENDER ( like me) must be banned ( The business owner reserves the right NOT to do business with some one). This way at least some risk is taken.

What they cannot do is to ``tolerate`` someone like me, increase traffic at the business site [thus use me] AND at the same time beat me up like the Muttavaas in Saudi Arabia.

If the number & the volubility of certain interactors is a crowd-puller and
thus an advertisement, then it is dishonest to announce such lofty and bombastic a claim as ``unflinching idealism`` .

Baigaani shaadi meiN abdullah deevaana is not bad if it is Abdullah`s decision, but to arrange one`s wedding and insist thet the city`s deevaana Abdullahs be brought to the `show` BUT kept in line, is kind of ``westernism & ``colonialism`` which the Unpluggistaanis, the unadulterated Desis, have spurned and look down upon.

If you think it is a good idea then please copy it and bring it back on top as a refresher & reiminder. Others please do it as well.

P.S: Saima Shah* & Safwan shah are excellent people, but I am extremely stingy in my praise to anyone DEsi because such behaviour has become our national pastime. It has robbed us of our sting and instead the whole society operates on sifaarish, phony-politeness, and perverted networkings.

I do not particularly like to be `lovey-dovey` on an anonymous website which in this day and age of the ``Oppression by Freedom`` is the last refuge left where one CAN ( & allowed by default to) speak one`s mind and heard--even for a flickering second.

Sad, so sad but true.

*: hope you`ll smile a tad!

tehreek-e UnplUggistaan

Re: # 232 by ZahraJ

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re:#235 by godot
May be you confuse my hatred of some of the ideals that Pakistani rulers espouse (religious extremism, support of jehad in Kashmir etc) with hatred of Pakistanis. There is a difference. Individual attacks on some people on chowk do not constitute an attack on the whole nation. I agree that i could have been more refined in my criticisms on some occasions, which i will try to do in future.
Sridhar

Re: # 233

Sridhar

Yes, those ``ugly`` replies were selective, and contrary to what you say some of them were explicit ``personal`` attacks in a manner not befitting an intelligent being.

Those selective qoutes from your posts tell a reader that you are full of hate against Pakistan and Pakistanis (and anyone who dares to criticize India, perhaps reflecting your insecurity) and you don`t shy away from sinking low in your hatred.

re:#212 by nazarhayatkhan
Thanks for the kind words.
I was no doubt angry but now i am back. I congratulate the Chowk Staff on a good decision (getting rid of the scoring system).
Sridhar

re: Godot`s reply to my post
I am happy the scoring system is out. I am not sure how this filter system is going to work but this again is an unwarranted attempt to modify people`s behavior.
Godot,
You saw fit to post some of my ``ugly`` replies but not the one i talked about. In the other forum about ``Middle Kingdom wallahs``, i had interesting discussion on Buddhism with Kabuliwallah and DM.
Anyway, since the scoring system is out, i feel this discussion is irrelevant.
I hope people do not forget that abuse can be gross or subtle. Both can hurt. I have called some interactors names but this related to the interacts but was never personal. I am proud to say i have never ever abused anybody`s religion or race. I make no secret about the fact that i do not like military dictators. If there are some interactors out there who are offended by this, i would say: tough luck.
Paki is a short version of Pakistani. Why should one be offended by this?
Anyway, Chowk will lose fun if it becomes a newer version of Catholic day school.
Sridhar

[This is from the ``reading options`` to Chowk Admin :) ]

~ Kee Mae`rae Qatl Kae Baa`d...Us Nae... Jafaa Sae Tau`baa

Hayae...
Hayae.......

Hayae Uss Zood Pushaemaa`n Kaa.....Pushae`maaN.Hona. (Simply Beautiful)

This filtering system is utterly hopeless.

The scoring system was good because it put the interactors in his/her place without infringing upon their right to say whatever they wanted to say and in whichever manner. The intelligent interactors would have gotten the message and had made sure that their posts are written intelligently so they don’t score low. Those who are not very bright would have been stuck with a low score. It’s all in “how” one says it. Decency scores high, foul-mouthed and idiocy scores low. It’s simple as that. Neither is prevented from posting as their heart desire. Intelligent people abhor low scores. Hence, the good weeds out the bad.

The scoring system would have forced interactors to be more thoughtful when posting.
The Chowk filter makes no sense when it passes a “chutya” (#204)

Re: # 226

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#223: Who cares if someone is on your list or not ? You never know how many may have you on their list. How foolish and silly of you! I am glad that you disappeared for a while. I hope you took care of your ``perpetual perversions``.

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Let me be the first one to participate in this latest Chowk Jihad to share my list of interactors blocked by me before I leave again for unspecified period.

succubus (for provocative username),
catchy and several of his nicks (for 24/7 on the chowk, mean-spirited and promoter of religion),
ali_1 (for invectives-filled language),
atif2 (promoter of religion and until recently the patron of one, barachota and his various nicks),
lifta, mbz Isphani, zeena (boring and hard to decipher language),
nangaparbat, queen_cut&paste, ThothoEwing, ..., saleem and 10 other usernames (for 24/7 flooding the chowk, wasting bandwidth and disturbing the peaceful interactive atmosphere on chowk unplugged),
ZahraJ (for perpetual whining)
echoboom/ farangi_kush/ hamzad afaqui/ chusni (for senselessly promoting religion and hate agaisnt the west)
aasif (for wasting other`s time in reading his 10% arabic, 20% persian, 30% urdu and 40% supposedly English mix and senseless posts with occasional invectives)

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Re: # 219

``2. Use the Chowk filter – this will mark out select interacts which are abusive``

Okay, Chowk Staff, tell me why the post #204 is not filtered out by Chowk filter for using the word ``chutya`` in it (which is curse word), but post #214 was filtered although it had no curse word in it (and more troubling is scout`s deletion)? How do you decide what`s ``decent`` and what`s ``abusive``? What makes you pass post #204 but not post #214?

Re: # 219

Omigod Chowk Staff... did you say we are all unemployed aunties and uncles on UP??

We are indeed not. We just...have cyber addiction problems. There at least I admit it...

The intention behind the system of scoring each reply was to push up content for higher visibility however based on the feedback here it seems scoring was such a huge distraction that it was doomed to be ineffective. So without further ado it has been removed but it is now replaced by a filtering system which will continue to push down interacts that are abusive, off-topic, long cut-n-pastes and flamebaits. The way it works is that you have 3 choices

1) no filter - see all replies

2) use chowk filter - it does not show replies that have been marked down

3) use your own filter - it does not show interacts posted by people on your ignore list which can be set from the edit profile page.

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We want to apologize there was a software glitch yesterday afternoon which caused some replies to be set with score zero. This has now been fixed.

CHOWK STAFF,

please get rid of this scoring system or are you guys bent upon committing chowk suicide?

Feedback to Chowk`s Administration

Despite the spellbinding efforts to improve the interact features on Chowk, there is something completely missing here. It goes back to Samina`s point on making the interactors (women, in particular) feel comfortable in sharing their opinions on any subject.

In addition to that, creating an environment in which women are able to express their ideas, views and perspectives without any backlash is crucial for this ezine to survive. I am positive that none of the women frequent this place to exchange kicks and jabs . At times, it can become very annoying and you may lose your train of thought, while telling someone to ``shut up & get lost``. It`s extremely distracting when each and every subject is hijacked by the orthodox clergy on board. I have no issues with the ones who offer their views and do not try to impose them on others. I do have issues with those who try to act like party-poopers.

Apparently, there is a fear amongst some that if vocal and strong headed women started sharing their heartfelt sentiments and ideologues that may end up influencing the direction of their society. Obviously, women have a lot of power whether they realize it or not. All the more reason, some men can easily be intimidated by their natural awe.

In order for Chowk to bloom and flourish, women ought to be encouraged to contribute. By the way, there is a difference between girls and women. Just like boys and men do not fall in the same category.

Chowk should NOT represent or emulate the environment prevalent in the traditional eastern societies. That direction will do nothing but create a regressive cyber society.

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Re: # 210

Sridhar, if I may...

I checked some of your most recent posts and here are the excerpts. What value do they add to discussion at hand? What do they tell us about the interactor posting them? [Also, read back your posts and see how many times you have called Pakistan “Pak” and Pakistanis “Pakis.”]

If you were to assign a score to the interactor who posted the following remarks, what score would you assign him?


#1 The Idea of Chowk on January 27, 2005
re: the scoring system
I see that rats like Romair, Urstruly (a hindu hater) are getting good scores.
Chowk has just gotten rotten now. This place is now only infested with rats.


#2 The Middle Kingdom Wallas on January 24, 2005
re: more about this scoring system
I think this scoring system tells us a lot about the Paki mentality…Typical Paki style.
I personally say fukc the Chowk.


#3 The Idea of Chowk on January 24, 2005
re:#51 by tahmed32
Perhaps nature (or call it God) weeded out the worst elements from India in 1947 (when Pak was formed) so India can progress. I can see why this was good for India today.


#38 Let’s talk to Mallika Sherawat’s Breasts on January 10, 2005
re:#21 by bts
You are an idiot. This author has no class. That is why she seeks to shock by cheap innuendos.


#39 Let’s talk to Mallika Sherawat’s Breasts on January 10, 2005
re: this article
Cheap mindset begets cheap talk. With peanut sized brains, it is not surprising she makes such cheap statements. She has shown that she can only wallow in jealousy and self-pity.


#42 Let the People Meet on January 10, 2005
re: travel across the border
I can understand Indian muslims (some of them at least) travelling to Pak to see their relatives or just to see how things are across the border but any hindu travelling to that country ought to have his head examined by a psychiatrist.


#45 Point of View, 1971 Through Now on January 8, 2005
re:#78 by Romair
Ursltruly has made an A$$ of himself about this UN business… Urstruly, who someone in this forum said was an A-hole, goes to prove that he indeed is.


#47 Reforming Pakistan`s Universities -- II on January 6, 2005
re: another stupid article from our Paki friend


#70 Khamosh Pani Crosses the Border Noisily on December 26, 2004
re:#239 by Pakshaer
I pasted the news items from International media. What else u want?
Frikking morons like u continue to believe what your dictator tells u.

Re: # 210 Rsridher

I think you should not worry about this scoring business. I have not even tried to understand it. I am on Chowk for my own personal interest. It does not bother me who thinks what of me.

You are a very valuable member of Chowk - highly balanced and very knowledgable. And a big contributer.

So dump you anger - and take this in a much lighter vein.

nhk

Well, too many interesting features have been implemented in one go.

A few thoughts/feedback on the ``reading options``:

1. The idea of setting reading options by selecting different levels can be a useful tool to filter posts. How are the levels assigned? I think the scoring is tied to the levels. Correct me if I am wrong? That`s why I see 106 interacts with level = 2. If your numbering convention is based on the interactor vs. his or her interacts then that is an issue. The scoring should be based on the substance of the interactor`s posts vs. the interactor`s history and contributions to Chowk. I understand that will be quite cumbersome since you cannot automate it unless you are incorporating some features of artificial intelligence here. And, interestingly the scoring will vary when you go by the content of a post only. Something to look into!

2. The nested layout/threaded feature is a useful option to sift through the pertinent thread of a discussion.

3. I would recommend an update to the following:

- order = newest first and order = oldest first should be revised to ``ascending order`` and ``descending order``. The current terms seem to address the needs of those who have never used the basic features of a newsgroup, outlook email and other basics. That`s just a suggestion to make the rectangular box with a drop-down look better.

re: the scoring system
I am quite fed up with Chowk, so this may be my last post ever here. I feel sad after being here for more than 2 years and having posted more than 2000 posts.

``If an interactor is constantly at 0 or 1 (or worse, at –1), we can safely conclude that that interactor has nothing of value to say.``
I am saying that the scoring system is biased. You can go to my posts in the forum ``The middle kingdom wallahs`` and tell me if ihave nothing to say in the posts there. Even Dost Mittar agreed that the scores of 1 that i and another interactor got was unwarranted.
So, it seems scoring system has been brought in mainly to make some people bad. I see that rats like Romair, Urstruly (a hindu hater) are getting good scores.
Chowk has just gotten rotten now. I am not surprised so may good interactors have already left. This place is now only infested with rats.
So long, then.
Keep up this tamasha and let us see how long this forum lasts.
Sridhar

i miss the simple old chowk, please get rid of all the changes, including the unplugged section and return to the format and formula before, you`re going to detract new visitors because of this confusion

the best websites on the internet are the simple, user friendly ones

what the hell is this

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SameerJB ji

Nice to see you back.

SameerJB SameerJB
where have u been
you went to heaven
to look at all the asinines ?

Regards

Re: # 202
viz a viz your post-
1.
Prisoners and detainees are not held because they are `unsuitable` people. They are there because of the retributive elements of their actions. Afterall, they do get out and mingle within society while being `unsuitable`.
Saima`s point still remains that people are quarantined in real world.This happens in social unions as well, maybe less explicitly.The basis may be retribution or anything else.
This does not follow necesarily that chowk should be that way, and I will come to that later.
There are convicted sex offenders whose rights to be anonymous are being championed by civil rights organization. kaka is championing the rights of arjun and echoboom in the same way. ESPECIALLY, SINCE NOW YOU CAN USE `IGNORE` AND ` THRESHOLD` BUTTONS TO KEEP THE NEIGHBORHOODS OF YOUR COMPUTER SANCTIFIED.
This analogy cannot stand by itself because their is one additional parameter, the objective of chowk. The rights of arjuns and echobooms should not interfere with objective of chowk and how chowk sees itself. We cant assume that there is no objective of chowk.
2. Do not put too much hope in the efforts of `tax-collectors` such as the government etc to make good use of your tax-dollars and wishes. There is the Patriot Act and a sleuth of irelevant and harmful measures taken up by governments on your behalf. You need to be less trustful and demand more accountibility. Refer to post 169 to know what is at stake here.
I agree that the government`s role is debatable and besides the analogy to non cyber(i am refraining from the word real) world can only work to a certain extent.
3. You share cyberspace and indeed chowk.com with several people. Jostling with the `ignore` and `threshold` buttons will enable you to customize your view of reality as far as chowk is concerned. Empower yourself on your profile page without having to appeal to authority to ban certain interactor or remove certain posts.
4. You can create a parallel civilization for the positive sides of chowkies by going to your profile page. Nobody should leave just because arjun is insulting Mohammad and echoboom is typing angry invectives against Muslim atheists like kaka. Just type the words `arjun` and `echoboom` in the ignore space and watch their bakbak poof away.
5. You can maintain that `critical balance` by taking a chance on some interactors and letting them froth while putting others on the `ignore` cruise mood or whatever. Others shouls also have the right to keep their own `critical balances` by toggling with profile pages. The point is, there doesn`t need to be a comprehensice chowk control about it.

The threshold system depends largely on the felicity of chowk staff of rating interactors. So the god like shadow of chowk staff is always there. Chowk staff have made a very stupid beginning by rating interactors based on the articles submitted. If I had written a few articles on my pre pubescent love affair with a bespectacled girl and chowk would have published them(which is not a long shot), I would be having an interactor rating of five . Interactor rating is more of a subjective and debatable activity than screening posts containing expletives and personal attacks. The default threshold rating which lurkers see also depends on this. Currently you are rated at 1 and the lurkers would probably see all your posts.
As per the ignore button and the interactor rating as well, one can get into practical problems in a three way discussion where there is no data transfer among all the three sides of the triangle.So, this system is not as perfect as it looks.

6. Chowk does not have to be a mirror for everyone. It could be a plyground for others too.

Agreed.But chowk has to decide what it is.It cant be everything to everybody, though it may try to be.If it wants to be a playground for some, it is sure to scare off the diverse variety of people that it attracts.When it is a free for all, everyone is bound to cuss and swear from time to time.I have a feeling it will go towards having more bohemian rhapsodic people discussing some abstract issues, who are beyond any sense of id or ego and the normal people who want to discuss more mundane things like the h in shalwar would fall by the wayside.
7. The question is, do you want to work towards an ideal which limits Freedom of Expression? Do you want to work towards a Draconian ideal or an Islamic Ideal or whatever ideal? Sure the ideal probably cannot be achieved, but if you are looking for a homogenized, monolithic that everyone has to subscribe to, then kaka is going to keep writing against that ideal.
Again I support your right to write and fight and cuss(and you do not have to explain your urge,I also have that from time to time), but instead of such big ideals and big words, I think just posts using cuss words directred towards an interactor should be screened, and this is the most sensible way of attracting people from most diverse backgrounds and standings on the bohemian scale. The example is unplugged.You can easily guess what percentage of people visiting front page go to unplugged.If you call this homogenized,monolitic, maybe it is so.But it is sure to attract more different people as far as I can see. Finally, it all boils down to what chowk wants to see itelf as.Personally, I am all for insulting such figures, who are revered to such an extent that everything that they have uttered are taken to be true and immutable. Popes, prophets,saints.But I know that not many people will be able to debate anything here then.
Again, what chowk wishes to see itself as.

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Re: # 200

Saima

1 Prisons and detention centers are for the criminals not for those who hurl abusive language.

2 The real world has not been successful in preventing rapes, murders and genocide. Those are the real culprits in an uncivilized world. Abusive language does not even figure in the agenda of the institutions you cited.

3 A world where everyone is caring, well-behaved, civilized, intelligent, thoughtful, and well-read is a world beyond reality. Even in a “civilized” world not every single individual is bestowed with those characteristics.

4 Chowk, just as any self-respecting society or community, needs to set rules of conduct for its interactors, which it most certainly did in its guidelines. My take in this article is that it’s fine to screen and reject posts but not to ban interactors. I liked the idea of letting everyone have his/her say but score the interactor. If an interactor is constantly at 0 or 1 (or worse, at –1), we can safely conclude that that interactor has nothing of value to say. The real world is full of folks like that. If the Chowk interactor does not mind being in the rut with a very low score that reflects his/her inner being, then that’s fine too. It’s his/her prerogative. Others would just laugh, curl their lips in disgust, and move on. The smart ones won’t read or respond to a 0 or a 1. The point is, just like the reader who is empowered to choose which posts to read or not to read, an interactor is also empowered to say whatever he/she wants to say. No intelligent person has ever suggested banning Howard Stern, but we all know how much he is respected and paid attention to as compared to, lets say, Jim Lehrer. In the real world both exist side by side. Lehrer is happy with his dignity, Stern is happy with his stink. That’s the natural world order.

5 The problem is who decides that “critical balance”? Who’s watching the police? What’s the guarantee that the police responsible for maintaining the “critical balance” is impeccably neutral and objective? [Scoring an interactor has the same issue but is perhaps less biased than rejecting a post or banning a person.]

6 If Chowk is going to be a true mirror then it must reflect the reality of those who interact at Chowk.

Chowk will not lose authenticity by becoming civilized. The scoring system is driving towards that goal without infringing on the right of the interactor to say with complete freedom as to “how” the interactor chooses to say it. If “good” people want to leave Chowk because of the “negativity” the freedon would bring, then they should do that because they are paying too much attention to 0s and 1s. In that case, Chowk is not the only problem they have. They have major issue with the real world they inhabit.

`#200 by SaimaShah on January 26, 2005 12:52pm PT Score=4

1. The real world has a structure where unsuitable people are banned from ordinary interaction with others. Prisons and detention centers are created to keep society safe.

2. The real world is constantly being adjusted by Government, Society and Associations, to be a more fulfilling place for all of humanity. UNO, UNICEF, Charitable associations, medical doctors, newspapers, religious institutions and myraid other places contribute to this grand ideal.

3. Is the nebulous ideal of civilization as an ideal good? I believe Yes... and that I`d love to go into with you over a cup of coffee--perhaps several would be needed. In a nutshell we the people need civilization to survive.

4. Civilization with some of its contraints or actually `standards` is what Chowk needs to survive. Otherwise it will not be a safe place for people to exist as a community because it is too biased towards the negative side of humans.

5. A critical balance needs to be maintained, between throat strangling civility/suppression on the one hand and freedom.

6. Chowk is a mirror. Yes. But its reflection is powerful too.

Now the other concern that I felt you had in the sub-text..

Will Chowk lose authenticity by becoming civilized?

7. Since 1 is an ideal, it is never achieved, it is a constant process, and human nature will always fight it, I am not afraid that Chowk will become a less authentic place--there is a healthy mix of the bold and the outrageous.`


1. Prisoners and detainees are not held because they are `unsuitable` people. They are there because of the retributive elements of their actions. Afterall, they do get out and mingle within society while being `unsuitable`.

There are convicted sex offenders whose rights to be anonymous are being championed by civil rights organization. kaka is championing the rights of arjun and echoboom in the same way. ESPECIALLY, SINCE NOW YOU CAN USE `IGNORE` AND ` THRESHOLD` BUTTONS TO KEEP THE NEIGHBORHOODS OF YOUR COMPUTER SANCTIFIED.

2. Do not put too much hope in the efforts of `tax-collectors` such as the government etc to make good use of your tax-dollars and wishes. There is the Patriot Act and a sleuth of irelevant and harmful measures taken up by governments on your behalf. You need to be less trustful and demand more accountibility. Refer to post 169 to know what is at stake here.

3. You share cyberspace and indeed chowk.com with several people. Jostling with the `ignore` and `threshold` buttons will enable you to customize your view of reality as far as chowk is concerned. Empower yourself on your profile page without having to appeal to authority to ban certain interactor or remove certain posts.

4. You can create a parallel civilization for the positive sides of chowkies by going to your profile page. Nobody should leave just because arjun is insulting Mohammad and echoboom is typing angry invectives against Muslim atheists like kaka. Just type the words `arjun` and `echoboom` in the ignore space and watch their bakbak poof away.

5. You can maintain that `critical balance` by taking a chance on some interactors and letting them froth while putting others on the `ignore` cruise mood or whatever. Others shouls also have the right to keep their own `critical balances` by toggling with profile pages. The point is, there doesn`t need to be a comprehensice chowk control about it.

6. Chowk does not have to be a mirror for everyone. It could be a plyground for others too.

7. The question is, do you want to work towards an ideal which limits Freedom of Expression? Do you want to work towards a Draconian ideal or an Islamic Ideal or whatever ideal? Sure the ideal probably cannot be achieved, but if you are looking for a homogenized, monolithic that everyone has to subscribe to, then kaka is going to keep writing against that ideal.

Stop whining about the rating system. It`s been used successfully on slashdot...and slashdot has a thousand times as many users as chowk...and 10K times as many whiners..


And people complaining about their ``freedom of speech`` being violated, you don`t know what you`re talking about....

Wow.

Very thought provoking. After seven years at Chowk, I have a few thoughts on these issues.

1. The real world has a structure where unsuitable people are banned from ordinary interaction with others. Prisons and detention centers are created to keep society safe.
2. The real world is constantly being adjusted by Government, Society and Associations, to be a more fulfilling place for all of humanity. UNO, UNICEF, Charitable associations, medical doctors, newspapers, religious institutions and myraid other places contribute to this grand ideal.
3. Is the nebulous ideal of civilization as an ideal good? I believe Yes... and that I`d love to go into with you over a cup of coffee--perhaps several would be needed. In a nutshell we the people need civilization to survive.
4. Civilization with some of its contraints or actually `standards` is what Chowk needs to survive. Otherwise it will not be a safe place for people to exist as a community because it is too biased towards the negative side of humans.
5. A critical balance needs to be maintained, between throat strangling civility/suppression on the one hand and freedom.
6. Chowk is a mirror. Yes. But its reflection is powerful too.

Now the other concern that I felt you had in the sub-text..

1. Will Chowk lose authenticity by becoming civilized?
A. Since 1 is an ideal, it is never achieved, it is a constant process, and human nature will always fight it, I am not afraid that Chowk will become a less authentic place--there is a healthy mix of the bold and the outrageous.

If you want a metric, you could count & display the number of times any response was viewed.
It would be like -
veeresh (155) read--omar_quereshi (53) read-- veeresh (20)read

---

tahmed32 (39) read-- veeresh (15) read-- tahmed32 (8)read
soysauce(3) read-- harimau(3) read-- soysauce(3) read-- harimau(3)read--, etc.

The bold parts are the links that allow you to read the response in the current window or a new, popup window.
You get the idea.

..hehe.......echoboom got hit by a bolt of lightening from a representative of ba ba black sheep herd....now put a balm on the wounds made from the translation of Iqbal`s poetry, however the translation of Noon Meem Rashid`s random mix of short and long lines would be more soothing and possibly rewarding in the future......

abey oh ehmaq, aqal say paidal insaan
maghrib ki karamaat ki qadar pehchan
nehmat darazi-e-umr ammi-o-abba jan
nahi ba taur-e-wajdan-o-hadis-o-quran
bunyadon mein khirad kay qadar daan
azad khyali-e-falsafian-o-tehqeeq daan
kyun nadani peh makhmoor aye nadan
chal phoot ja kha sada ilachi wala paan

Oh and, there`s no longer any need for the preview panel under the new system. It also screws up author attribution.

chowk-staff,
I`m a cheerleader for your new system. I also agree that you have to start somewhere as far as scoring interactors goes. However, may I suggest that a good starting point is one where everyone starts out at the same point and evolve from there?
Another option would be where you show the names of the posters only without displaying the contents. A link on the side would then take you to the contents associated with that particular interactor. This would be as if we set the threshold at level=5 except that you don`t have to change anything globally to see what any particular individual has said. The advantage of this method is it would be self-governing with no human intervention, no moderation and no formulas. What do you think?
A more elaborate system would thread the interactions but that might be a huge undertaking for an established site like this one. Blog sites automatically incorporate threading feature.

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unkil veeresh: ``e) Omar will continue to try to attract my attention``


yawn -- u wish unkil -- btw i wonder if india airline meal reviews are rated this way too

#192 by Saminasha on January 25, 2005 5:25pm PT Score=2
Re: # 189

1. I mean just because Urs has a fetish for painted feet doesnt make chowk a repository of foot cleavage.

2. we`re just trying to get some justice and equality over here,


1. saminah, don`t you have the ignore button and the threshold controls? How can you claim chowk exclusively for non-kaka behaviour? Why can`t echoboom call kaka gora-goo-chaater? Why can`t he spew hatred against the llikes of kaka? If you don`t like, please please please please use the ignore button. kaka likes to read all this stuff just as he likes to watch Fox News. kaka just wants to see what the crazies are saying..

2. Does kaka have the right to ignore justice-loving people while spreading his hate messages and encouraging echoboom to hate? Would it be too much for you to put both of us on your ignore button and threshold your monitor to exclude us? kaka like to hate and incite and stuff, thankyouverymuch.

Re: # 189

Kaka,

If Kaka fancies himself the multifaceted sport, he should take his man eating, sock sniffing, pyromaniac, porn dog self to all the various sites all his Ivy League foodchain college friends frequent...I mean just because Urs has a fetish for painted feet doesnt make chowk a repository of foot cleavage. Kaka should understand that women never liked it when grown men baby talk them nor are they amused by big butt and rubber protusion jokes that seem to typify the range of Kaka and Raka and their contemporaries...we`re just trying to get some justice and equality over here, and frankly all those fart cushion jokes are kind of third grade.

Nor is Saminasha amused by Kaka`s thinly disguised attempted at dragging her female sistas into his little teapot tempest...Saminasha knows Kaka likes nothing better than to set the sistas in jello so that he can sit back and chortle to his buds how women will never get anywhere in the world because they just cant get along, but as Sadna, Farzana and Saminasha have proven time and time again, sistahood is more powerful than maxim jokes.

Finally, if it behooves Kaka to be compared with Depends Sahib, heres just another instance in which Kaka will have to learn how to share with the other kids at juice and snack time. If both Echoboom and Kaka had the idea to play with the bouncy yellow ball, then they`ll just have to learn how to get along, wont they?

And going back to the main topic......

What Chowk did is childish.... BTW i notice that FP now works like UP...... Is Chowk-Staff a bunch of slackers....... they don`t want to read peoples post and have created a system that will do their job for them....... ;)

They started this ignore feature on UP and guess what.... it backfired on those that had requested/dreamt for it. The very people that complained are the ones that have been ignored the most......

Rahul...... agreed..... read 187 for a response.

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Re: # 183
Yeah doublec, read that again.echoboom did not write that, he just bolded and underlined a few words here and there.

Re: # 185

Does not matter Echo..... how can you preach Islam and then use such language...... it sounds hypocritical......
She spoke her mind you do the same without insulting a women.......
Islam does not teach such things and you know that.

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doublec:183
Did you read #174? Do you really READ!
Please check out #169 first!

You cannot erase your post now. a few words would be fine!

There you go again. Another opinion poll?!! Another scoring scale?!!

Who came up with this negative marking system? What`s wrong with a scale from zero to ten? Or better yet, make hamidm happy and have score inflation... start with zero and go up in increments of ten: 20, 30, 40... 100 Its a lot nicer to be a 20 than a 0, or a 100 than a 5. I`m sure all reasonable people will agree.

Moreover, can this system also be manipulated? Also?? What do you mean also? I mean like the star system for articles: faded stars to bright stars. Its democratic right? People power, voting rights and all that... right? Yes, right. But then Adolf Hitler and George W were also voted in were they not?

#174 by echoboom on January 25, 2005 3:40pm PT Score=1
Boombox wrote: saminah chutya aurat,


Boombox...... good job buddy.... great job...... what a hypocrite... you talk about Islam and all the bad things that are happening to it by the west and then you use such language..... dumb bloke..... go read the Koran and you`ll be shocked to know that you are not in the ``in crowd`` that you think you are part off.

You need help dude......

Re: # 178
My objection against attacking people is not ethical, just utilitarian. There are some people who feel comfortable talking without gali galoch and some who feel uncomfortable talking without gali galoch.So, in a free for all exchange of ideas, if personal gali galoch is allowed, only the latter will prevail.So, now we talk about a mirror of real world and the norms,in interest of exchange of ideas between the largest majority of people.And we are not talking about screening of posts here, but screening of interactors.One can never know when an interactor will start doing gali galoch.Everybody can do that sometime or the other,even those who do not do it everytime they disagree with someone.
While your right of gali galoch is valid in itself, it does not work out well at a place where ideas are supposed to be discussed. And about debating your statement, I thought you meant it as some form of axiomatic truth,so I asked for precedents.My bad. Now I see that it was just your opinion.Most of the discussion on that statement would follow from the above,but I may comment more on it later.

Depends Sahib,

Dont laugh too hard...diapers cost money...

Re: # 174

Re: # 173

ana,

didnt know all these factors. However, I do hope you stick around as well.

Kaka Uloo

Re: # 176

``unbridled expression and unpcness...`` ``because I have to be respectable in my real life``...yes, Kaka, Saminasha understands..and she wishes you actually had to spend at least three days as a woman, gay, progressive, person of color, or intelligent person so that you`d have something to REALLY complain about...I mean, desi, what fetters are keeping YOU from being Master of your Universe...and I mean this in the way you hate-as an entitled Desi Het Male in North America...unless your brown backside is sitting in Gitmo or in certain sections of Pakistan, you need to deal...and if your backside is in Gitmo, aint no free market gonna liberate your tired, terrorist ass, it`ll be one of those crunchy granola pc lawyers Depends Sahib is constantly expectorating about...

So unless you can explain why we have to put up with your cyber sublimation- and I mean really...I cannot believe you are WHINING about having your life...because you have some misguided notion of what ``freedom of speech`` is -which ironically something your diaper bud would outlaw The Very Second he was made Ayatollah, you need to scrape together some legitimate ideas before you get the gasface...


Note to Echoboom Sahib: Do not try Urban Slang at home without Adult Supervision.

#177 by rahul_capri on January 25, 2005 4:08pm PT Score=2

1. `You dont seem to want to realize the difference between attacking ideas and attacking people. But that actually figures. Most of your cheerleaders are because of your gali galoch.`

2. ``The `freedom of expression` is EXACTLY FOR THE PEOPLE who might be seen to violate the normative standards of respectful conduct.``
Can you give some examples from history?`

1. kaka realizes the difference and he wants to admit both attacks to be free from editorial/technological based removals. Why should the cheerleaders not enjoy kaka`s amazing facility in gaalum galoch. O mairay bhy, you have the `ignore` and `set your own threshholds` controls now. Using those controls, what the fukk do you care if a tree fell under the chowk thicket and YOU DID NOT HEAR IT? Why do you care? kaka`s awesome fluidity with gaaliyaaN and insights delights and educates a certain audience. What is saminah`s problem if she can use the controls on her profile page NOT TO SEE IT? Yay kyaa nosy maa-zoori hay k, you have to read every friggin` thing that kaka posts.

2. There are exactly zero point zero examples of what kaka is talking about. Or maybe there are some... Why does kaka have to quote Quran, hadeeth, history and Nehru`s speeches to support a great idea which on the face of it seems good. What kind of intellectual maazoori drives you to look for precedents. It is a good idea because because.. let kaka see you argue against it..

maazoori = handicap

Re: # 169
You dont seem to want to realize the difference between attacking ideas and attacking people. But that actually figures. Most of your cheerleaders are because of your gali galoch.
``The `freedom of expression` is EXACTLY FOR THE PEOPLE who might be seen to violate the normative standards of respectful conduct.``
Can you give some examples from history?

`1. I would certainly wish you the experience of being treated the way you think can treat other self respecting interactors...


2. ...here`s my question-where else in society do the pervs run the system?

3. I mean, if the pedophiles are actually restricted from children so that they cant assault them, why on earth do you think you should be given run of the children`s hospital corridor?

4. Reading your posts is like watching a really bad Law and Order Suv episode...`



1. kaka knows it can be bad. Maybe kaka has gone through it, maybe not BUT BUT BUT BUT the Freedom of Expression overrides all such hurts.. Your agenda of womanhood and respect is great and wahwah but do not champion or explain away the Freedom of Expression cause, because you are not worthy. kaka is ready to concede that he fails on championing the women`s rights too. Not that you have to reciprocate.. but just know your auqaat in the intellectual discourse..

2. Why does the discourse on a website have to mirror the society? It could easily be worse or better. The appeal to correspondence to society is an intellectually negligent AKA `first thoughs.. best thoughts` argument. You have trained yourself to be intellectually negligent and scraped up some pride in it.

3. `Why on earth, you ask?` BECAUSE BECAUSE BECAUSE BECAUSE, this is a marketplace of ideas. Of unbridled, non-PC discourse. Of words and pictures. Not real life of tsunamis and theaters with compromising fire exits. Echoboom needs the freedom. kaka`s crazed head needs freedom. kaka is too respectable in real life to mouth off his kakaness. kaka has great ideas which nobody in real life listens too cos kaka is just too cute to be taken seriously. etc.

4. You need to grow up and quit deriving moral lessons from TV, chile! Keep on reading what kaka has to say and uneducate yourself.

all of echoboom`s posts are cases in point as to how the front page will continue to be polluted, and people will just leave him be. is everyone going to ignore the great boomblast according to this system. . . i suspect the answer will be no.

and kaka. . . you really do need to grow up. heckling and harassing to the point of verbally assaulting certain women as if you were standing on the streetcorner of sharah-e-quaid-e-azam next to a coca-cola stall really is asinine and infantile. obviously decorum and discipline are completely lost upon you. but one needs a mind for that, doesn`t one?

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samina,

keep wondering. :)

even the loveliest and cleanest of parks have people who are a dangerous menace to women. and i make my choices who to avoid and who not to, which park to go to and which one not to. some people do pick up after their doggies, and yanni is not godforsaken to everyone. . .

i have been on the verge of being assaulted in a park, heck in my own lawn, and i turned around and hightailed it out of there. it wasn`t for wearing a burqa or jeans. if you are in any way suggesting that i would be supporting assault by objecting to this silly scoring system, i would suggest that you think again. . . i don`t like what a lot of people particularly the men have to say here on chowk in regards to women, in regards to races and cultures. and i have made that known. but i am not going to support a system here that will judge an interactor`s opinions to be valid or invalid by keeping numerical score.

one of these very abled staff people of chowk told me once when i complained about a certain interactor, that he had the right and the freedom to express his opinion here. i don`t see this current implementation as supporting such a stance. it isn`t just about weeding out the assaulters who should have action taken against them. i think some people here see that.

of course feel free to arrive at what conclusions you may about my response, just as i have about this system. i, however, will not be around to respond to your wonderings any longer. thanks.

Hello Everybody:

I came on Chowk after a long time and decided to see if I have not been kicked out. It seems that all is well.

And Chowk looks great. It is showing lot of creativity.

Although I agree with the writer, I also hope that this scientific methodology of scoring works. This methodology bodes well for the future. If successful, it can be applied to determine the scores of political and religious leaders, journalists and what have you, bringing in income for the Chowk staff who designed the system.

However, I have a question for Chowk staff: Is this scoring subjectivly done by say 1 person or 2 or a group of your staff or do you have a business intelligence (or comparable) tool supporting the methodology? :-)

For the rest of us posters, I suggest that we be ourselves and forget all about the scores. For example, if this writer Godot had written an article claiming every thing is wrong with Pakistan (which I distinctly recall he once did a year or so ago), I would have forgotten all about the scores in a jiffy hahaha.

Btw, compared to Australia, the weather in the northern USA and Canada stinks. I feel aweful for Americans living in the New England states and those living anywhere in Canada. I wish you all a very happy shoveling of snow ;-)

Re: # 169

Kaka,

I would certainly wish you the experience of being treated the way you think can treat other self respecting interactors...but you get off on it, and thats the trouble...here`s my question-where else in society do the pervs run the system? I mean, if the pedophiles are actually restricted from children so that they cant assault them, why on earth do you think you should be given run of the children`s hospital corridor?

Reading your posts is like watching a really bad Law and Order Suv episode...

Re: # 167
O khotay!
Just hang around. The fun has just started.
You won`t be disappointed by the new gali gloch.

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Re: # 164

Ana,

In which park do you prefer to walk?

One where you will be assaulted for wearing your jeans and/or burqa or one where it doesnt matter and you are respected? Are your parks du jour filled with ``representatives`` of ``authentic`` nations, or people who are just hoping to go for a run, feed the birds, exit a quick dash, or smell the flowers? Is your park filled with people who throw trash everywhere, refuse to pick up after their dogs or insist on playing their godforsaken Yanni all day? Do you have a position for or against the teenagers smoking weed by the bench near the trees, or do you think the bird droppings on the park founder`s statue should be left on it for ``reality``?

Just wondering, here...

rodents. code coolies, carpet weavers and ayatollahs ..........

......now that everyone has vented and the code coolies who dwell with the rodents in the subterranean sewers that lie beneath the chowk have had their fun, let`s all get on with the usual mudslinging, muckraking, baiting, jugglery, pedantic sophistry, intellectual chicanery and plain old name-calling ............

....... and echoboom, you can keep up your rant against the gora-goo-chaaters (white shit lickers, for the convent educated) but you need to come up with some new invective (gali, for the madrassa educated), vituperation (galoch) and terms of endearing approbrium (laanat malaamat) for the baa baa black sheep ......... your usual tirades do not seem to bother dheet (shameless, for the convent educated) farangi-parasts (whiteman worshippers) ........... actually i kind of like the name abdoolamreeka and am seriously thinking of adopting it as my nick on chowk .......

........ as for the chowk code coolies - guys, you are doing a great job, but just don`t get carried away ......... i know you little men with thick glasses and bad hair are always striving for perfection with your little jars of java beans, but like the carpet makers of qum, who deliberately weave in a flaw, don`t forget that only god is perfect ........ don`t be like the ayatollahs who live on the other side of the tracks and who think they know everything ................ they don`t know goo ..........

Deleting posts is one thing, but kicking people out all together is different. So yea, this makes chowk suck quite a bit. It`s almost like an on-line totalitarian government :) But anyways there is no real purpose for this post, I jsut wanted to see how this new rating feature works.

This article must be a real record setter, 165 posts on an article that`s been up for only two days.

CHOWK-STAFF:
If you are sincere and truly believe not be an oppresor (like western THUGS) then:

Get rid of your Vardee. Let the inter-actors wrest from yo