The Middle Kingdom Wallas

re: Chinese inventions
There is no doubt that China is a great Civilizational country. Many of the discoveries and inventions of the distant past were done in china. These include use of paper, printing, gunpowder, Compass. China had a much better health system in place that India at the time. While India gave to the world Ayurveda (medical treatment based on herbs and nature cure), China gave Acupuncture. Kites were invented in China. I saw on CCTV beautiful kites being manufactured in present day China. These have intricate designs and seem to be popular even in present day China. China gave to the world its first calculator ie Abacus.
Few however know that China also had a system of state exam (much like the IAS exams today) in place for selecting candidates to government jobs even more than 10 centuries ago. This is incredible.
What else? Silk, Chinese Calligraphy, chopsticks. Fortune cookies! No, i am only kidding!
And the queen of all, papermoney, was also invented in China! Where would we be without this?
A good site to go: http://www.cnn.com/interactive/specials/9908/china.inventions.timeline/frameset.exclude.html
Sridhar

Romair #27

`` India is a good example of the first. It regularly changes govts. procedurely. However, it has not been able to achieve the second part. It has easily the highest poor population in the world. China is an example of the second. It still does not have a stable method of changing govts. But it is achieving massive economic growth.``

India`s poor population is more a function of heterogenity, stupid economic policies etc.

`` One cannot compare China with India or any other third world country. China is already in a different league. In 25 years, China`s economy may be the same size as that of the USA. At which time it will be a true superpower, rivaling the USA.``

Every country is unique. There are similarities and differences with India and China.

`` I have always felt Pakistan should throw its lot completely with China, while keeping good trade relations with India and USA. Pakistan`s future lies with Pakistanis themselves, and after that with China. China will always have a natural rivalry with India, for which it will need Pakistan as the main ally. Start teaching Mandarin and Cantonese in Pakistani schools etc. This may seem odd now, but it two decades everyone may be applying for Chinese H-1 visas.``

Given a couple of hundred million Chinese who will be seeking jobs why do they need Pakistanis who are from a different race and different religion ?

Romair #32

`` I have heard this statement a lot about Indians, by Indians. There is nothing to indicate that it is true, unless I am misunderstanding it. Chinese don`t have a laissez faire attitude about religion. They don`t have religion to begin with.

Indians, on the other hand, are amongst the more religious groups in the world. Following is a survey, from the Pew Research Center:``

Opinion polls are irrelevant. Hindu Indians have shed taboos after taboos.

dost-mittar #30,

``China and India are not permanent enemies``
While they are not enemies, they are going to remain competitors for a long time to come. Its natural too, because they are two large contries in the same neighbourhood and there can be only one major power in the region.

It makes sense for China to retain close relationship with Pakistan, but I think for Pakistan it makes more sense not to align completely with China, but retain close friendship with them. By doing they can extract the most for themselves from both India and China.

dost-mittar #30,

``China and India are not permanent enemies``
While they are not enemies, they are going to remain competitors for a long time to come. Its natural too, because they are two large contries in the same neighbourhood and there can be only one major power in the region.

It makes sense for China to retain close relationship with Pakistan, but I think for Pakistan it makes more sense not to align completely with China, but retain close friendship with them. By doing they can extract the most for themselves from both India and China.

nazarhayatkhan #9

`` The article is basically about the Chinese people & the society. Not really a comparison with others. ``

It is not like China is another planet. If China becomes a superpower it will have a profound impact on Muslim countries. It does not have to be negative. It will put more pressure on a lot of Muslim elites and Islamic intellectuals.

`` China was the most advanced civilizatuion between 7-14 century. I believe Quran says `seek knowledge even if you have to go to China`. The Arabs also had a good spell during this period.``

There is nothing wrong with Arabs being second during their golden ages. I doubt your garden variety Caliphate lover would ever acknowledge it.

`` But all is not hunky-dorey - presently it is running jumping towards Westernization - and historically, it has displayed a period urge to get back to its origin & culture; and shun foreign cultural influences.``

I think moderate dose of Westernization is healthy for China in the long run.

re: Kabuliwallah # 19

What fabulous information on Bodhi Dharma! How abysmal and lamentable our situation is today that we know almost nothing about such an interesting and important person.

I found a picture of Bodhi Dharma at this address:

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/chan.htm

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for opening an entirely new door of self-knowledge for me.

With all respect, however, parts of your post are not convincing. Are we being told that Brahmins and Kshatriyas consciously joined together in a violent destruction of Buddhists and Buddhism? Dr. Ambedkar`s words are worth gold to me. Still if the allegations actually quote his own words, then we should make sure that he was speaking literally and not rhetorically.

Also, claims like ``Brahmanism`s vegetarian lifestyle was a strategy adopted to counter Buddhism`s influence`` are full of such blind, self-righteous hatred and bias against Hindus that it`s ubelievable seeing so many Hindus passively accepting such distortions. We indeed have gotten used to welcoming any sh*t thrown upon us by the followers of other religions.

There are people in this world who have made the following charges against Hinduism. Do you think these allegations are not of the same nature?:

(1) Hindus craftily adopted the policy of non violence in order to discriminate against the interests of people who did not believe in non violence.

(2) Hindus cunningly adopted English education as a strategy against the interests of Indian Muslims.

(3) Hindu belief in respecting other religions is a deliberate ploy against people who believe in disrespecting other religions. Respecting other religions means destroying other religions.

Come on, my friend. There is a limit to our stupidity and lack of backbone.

Even so, if you can factually back up these assertions, I am duty-bound to give them full consideration. For me personally, the Truth is the greatest and the only Dharma in all matters of the mind. It is my humble hope that the Great Buddha would approve of that belief.

dost-mittar #30: ``China, if anything, has more cultural similarities with India than with Pakistan because of the laissez faire attitude of many hindus and chinese towards religion.``

I have heard this statement a lot about Indians, by Indians. There is nothing to indicate that it is true, unless I am misunderstanding it. Chinese don`t have a laissez faire attitude about religion. They don`t have religion to begin with.

Indians, on the other hand, are amongst the more religious groups in the world. Following is a survey, from the Pew Research Center:

``Results showing the balance of interest in secularism and religion were reported from 41 countries. The percentage of the public who considered religion important ranged from 97% in Senegal to 11% in both France and the Czech Republic. The Center reported that: ``Questions on the personal importance of religion were not permitted in China, and were deemed too sensitive to ask in Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon.`` http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_impo.htm

Country - % of adults for whom religion is important

Senegal - 97
Indonesia - 95
Nigeria - 92
India - 92
Pakistan - 91

Indians consider religion even more important than Pakistanis do..............

dost-mittar #30: ``While I admire the Chinese, the leader I really admire is Lee Kuan Yieu, whom the Chinese are trying to emulate.``

Yes, I am a great admirer of Lee Kuan Yu, also. He could be considered the greatest leader of this generation. And this is exactly the reason why I have always supported economy over democracy for poorer countries. As do most opinion polls.

From 1959 to 1988, Singapore has been ruled by one political party, PAP, for its history. It wins 80 out of 81 seats. There is no opposition. Not quite a democratic system. Yet, as long as it delivers economically, everyone is happy. Lee Kuan Yu and now his son, have ruled for almost every year, since Singapore`s independence.

``But I disagree with you wrt Pakistan and China. China and India are not permanent enemies and neither should necessarily be Pakistan and India.``

I don`t think China and India are permanent enemies. Or even enemies now. But they are permanent competitors. In fact, the competition is going to heat up in the coming decades. Russia, China and India, due to their size alone, if nothing else, are going to try to dominate the heartland of Asia. India is already trying to project itself as a mini-superpower. A neighborhood can only have one daadaa.......

India and Pakistan will become very close friends the day Kashmir is solved. Until then, the best that can be expected are open business relations and culture and stuff. The ball is in India`s court on this issue, as Pakistan has altered its atut-ang stance. However, at the moment, India doesn`t seem to feel any necessity for any solution that is not on its own terms.

India and China will open up on trade also. But competitors usually look for allies against each. Infact, Pakistan may end up in a state, where both India and China court it, against each other.

rahul_capri#26

So, the Chinese want to hide their warts. Who doesn`t? (and yes, I have seen that CBC documentary). China is certainly not a democracy, but it still doesn`t mean that their poor are not better off, generally speaking, than the Indian poor.

Romair:
While I admire the Chinese, the leader I really admire is Lee Kuan Yieu, whom the Chinese are trying to emulate. Earlier, whenever I pointed out to the success of Lee, my Indian friends pointed out that India couldn`t be compared to Singapore because of its size. Now the Chinese are opening up on the human rights front also but their model is still Singapore.

But I disagree with you wrt Pakistan and China. China and India are not permanent enemies and neither should necessarily be Pakistan and India. China and India seem to be burying their differences to go full speed ahead in other areas; if Pakistan wants -India seems to- the same can happen between India and Pakistan.

China, if anything, has more cultural similarities with India than with Pakistan because of the laissez faire attitude of many hindus and chinese towards religion. And Pakistanis have much greater affinity with Indians than with the Chinese [ever seen a Chinese on this site?], once the baggage of the partition is unloaded. While in the short term, the two countries are bound by mutual hostility, their long term strategic planning should be on the basis of a south asian partnership which itself becomes a strong pole instead of just checkmating each other with rival countries.

Romair #27 I would say the same to you.Read up about Henan Aids Epidemic and how information about it was gradually available to the rest of the world.

Vivek,
I have seen many Chinese convert to Christianity once they come to the US. And they do not convert due to poverty. They are well educated professionl types. But we dont see that happening with Hindus. The Hindus build temples and are one of the strongest cultural and religious proponents. There are hindus practising Hinduism amidst biggest of odds in Kenya, Zimbabwe, Caribben, Fiji etc.

Thats why I would say the Hindus are probably the only kind with that kind of passion towards their culture and religion. It is not easy to be a Hindu anywhere in the world coz all semitic religions equate satanic worship with Hinduism. It shows their closed and ignorant mindset. But what is more imporatnt is how the Hindus have managed to beat such high odds in alien environment and even have the 2nd and 3rd generation Indians to be Hindus.
I doubt the Chinese would have pulled it off even though they dont have to face such huge odds.

Thanks.

dost-mittar #24: ``Still, I think that the Chinese did the right thing in Tinanenmen Square, although my full admiration is for those who defied the Chinese authorities there. Why? Because, I believe in the Pareto`s Law of optimising the societal welfare,``

I have a Chinese friend here, who, along with his wife, was in Tianeman Square as a graduate student, protesting. I asked him if he was unhappy at what happened. He basically said the same thing you have said. He is now glad that Tianeman never took off. And I agree with both.

In the end, the basic human desire is a higher standard of living and personal security. It outweighs everything. Democracy and other ideas are just the means to achieve that desire. They are means in fashion, at the moment. However, centuries from now, democracy may be replaced by something else. But the desire for a higher living standard and personal security will never change.

Democracy, itself, has two parts. The first part is the regular and procedural change of rulers, based on the desires of the populace. The second is the ability of the changed rulers to raise the economic standard of the populace. They are not mutually inclusive. As India and China have shown.

India is a good example of the first. It regularly changes govts. procedurely. However, it has not been able to achieve the second part. It has easily the highest poor population in the world. China is an example of the second. It still does not have a stable method of changing govts. But it is achieving massive economic growth.

I think for third world countries, the second system is the best one to follow, i.e. try for democracy and economic growth at the same time. But if that is not possible, then prefer economic growth first, until you get to a point where everyone is economically free to vote independently without influence of powerful forces.

One cannot compare China with India or any other third world country. China is already in a different league. In 25 years, China`s economy may be the same size as that of the USA. At which time it will be a true superpower, rivaling the USA.

I have always felt Pakistan should throw its lot completely with China, while keeping good trade relations with India and USA. Pakistan`s future lies with Pakistanis themselves, and after that with China. China will always have a natural rivalry with India, for which it will need Pakistan as the main ally. Start teaching Mandarin and Cantonese in Pakistani schools etc. This may seem odd now, but it two decades everyone may be applying for Chinese H-1 visas.

`` Equity is good, but aren`t the Chinese poor better off than the Indian poor?``
dost-mittar- Please read my link about the Henan Aids epidemic.There is quite a lot of information available elsewhere on the net. There was a heartwrenching documentary shown on CBC on it.Such a horrific thing cannot happen in India. After reading about Henan, I would not be surprised for anything else to happen. I was responding to your post and trying to make the point that religion or no religion, totalitararian regime of any kind is not good for the poor.
``I would rather be a Shanghai poor bulldozed by the Chinese bureaucrats``
How can we be so sure that the bureaucrats and politician are not acting in their own benefit when there is no check at all?

A word to the wise from china:

1. Man`s schemes are inferior to those made by heaven.
english equivalent: man proposes, God disposes.

2. Tens of thousands of bones will become ashes when one general achieves his fame.

3. If you are in a hurry you will never get there.
english: make haste slowly

4. Do not be concerned about others not appreciating you.
Be concerned with your not appreciating others.

5. Nowadays, to provide for parents is considered filial piety.
But dogs and horses are so provided. Without respect, what
is the difference?

6. The gentleman encompasses all and is not partial.
The petty man is partial and does not encompass all.

7. Yu, I shall instruct you about knowledge. To acknowledge what
is known as known, and what is not known as not known is knowledge.

and finally proof that even the chinese sages didnt get it right all the time:

8. There is no wave without wind.

(obviously never heard of the tsunami).

rahul_capri:

``dost-mittar Going well for the chinese, I dont know if we can call it that in the first place. I really dont buy this GDP HDI data, neither in case of India nor China.There has to be more equity of wealth, and I dont mean through the leftist policies, but through an equal opportunity democracy.``

I suspect you were responding to someone else`s post.
Still, I think that the Chinese did the right thing in Tinanenmen Square, although my full admiration is for those who defied the Chinese authorities there. Why? Because, I believe in the Pareto`s Law of optimising the societal welfare, even if a few have to lose their freedom of speech in the process. If they had not snuffed that trouble in the bud, China today would be where Russia is, anarchy, robber barons, lawlessness. Equity is good, but aren`t the Chinese poor better off than the Indian poor? I would rather be a Shanghai poor bulldozed by the Chinese bureaucrats and moved to a healthier abode, than a Dharavi resident who is blocking the progress of the whole city by bribing policemen and paying mafia to stay where I am.

kabuliwallah:

Thanks for an informative post.