The Middle Kingdom Wallas

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Dost Mittar

Can you check the thread in your name on Unplugged.

Thanks

I was there in China with my family as lot of Pakistani families are now living in Beijing and Shanghai and my ( Uncle , Mamuu ) is one of them .. .. China has changed .. there culture there mindsets -

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I was there once in 97 , 99 and 01 - strange people Chinese are - they think the number `4` is bad and unlucky - so when you are living in a building block they don`t have number `4` flat or 4th storey - or 4 anywhere - - Muslims are quite poor in China - they do get more attention from Chinese Government one reason for that is Pakistan`s Support to tackle one of there muslim province issue - .... Chinese does love Pakistan they call us ` Bachistanis ` - Red is there lucky colour - from pizza hut to mcdonalds everything closes at 7pm - Ex- Chinese President Xing Ze Min - had a close relationship with Pakistan as he worked in Pakistan for 3 years - and I was lucky enough to meet Chinese Pres. at Pakistani Embassy - he spoke good urdu . The new Chinese Leadership is business minded but somehow Chinese Intrest lies in Pakistan because what I felt in China is that they ( Chinese ) somehow hate India .

`` China remained the most advanced civilization between the 7th and 14th century and its decay began in 17th century.``

If China was the most advanced civilization between the 7th and 14th century where does this leave the Caliphs and golden age of Islam ?

`` In a nutshell, the Middle Kingdom is unique in three aspects to the other ancient civilizations. It did not produce any God. It has been the longest continuous civilization. And it has yet to have the bitter-sweet taste of democracy. ``

If the Chinese can prosper without a strong religious alliegance where does that leave Islamic Pakistanis ? I can see Islamic fundamentalists having goose bumps trying to figure out China ande Chinese.

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Nazar Khan and Other Members,
China and India are the only 2 civilizational nations with 6000 years of continuous history. The rest have come and gone, including the Romans, British et all. There is another potentially 3rd great civilization, American Civilization,separate from European root,waiting to join the two Asian greats.

If You analyze the Indian and Chinese civilizations they have been historically the most peaceful civilizations with so much dedication given to Knowledge and education. Indian ideas influenced China more than the reverse. But India gained more practical inventions from China in return. It is like the Indians are good at ideas but not so good at using that idea into a product. Amazingly today both have returned to their civilizational roots, India being good at software which is all about mental ideas. And Chinese good at manufacturing. Like the way it was in the past.

The reason why these two and nobody stands for 6000 years is coz both celebrate knowledge and it is easy to transfer knowledge to the next generation than to transfer physical power to next generation. That is the failure of the western and islamic empires. Both failed to see that knowledge will in the end beat physical power.

India had withstood 600 years of never ending islamic invations and stood and faught the barbaric invaders to standstill. Arab and Turkish historians have infact written in their diaries that they never faced so much resistance anywhere else. And then they faught 250 years of British barbarism and came out on top of them too,which finished off the British empire in Africa and elsewhere. Chinese have been isolated and never had to face such constant threat to its civilization. They lost to the Mongol invaders but had time to regroup. I am not sure if they had faced the regular hordes of muslim invaders they would have sustained like the Indians did.

Please keep all the comments WITHOUT any emotional outpourings and keep it rational and relevant.

Also please note when I say India, it includes Pakistan too, coz most Pakistanis have Hindu DNA and not ARAB DNA as they would like to imagine.

Military expenditure 60 billiion? Thats a real understatement you know. Thats what China claims it spends. Most articles I`ve read on China in Time, Newsweek, Economist always hint a 100-120 billion figure .

I have travelled to China several times and lived in Hongkong for couple of months. What I found their good points were :

1. Very pragmatic wrt business.
2. Extremely hard working.
3. Due to lack of democracy, implementation of ideas does not face any hurdles such as court cases to get a stay.
4. More equality amongst women as compared to the sub continent.
5. No religious baggage.

The aspects which I did not like about them are

1. Strong concept of their being a superior race. They tend to look down upon all foreigners including whites. This is very strong in Hongkong. Much less in China.
2. Inability to face the truth in certain cases. Believing in statements such as `There is no homosexuality amongst Chinese etc.`
3. Police state and lack of civil rights.

I remember asking a snior economist in Shanghai, as to what is communist about the Communist Republic of China, and he started laughing syaing that he could not answer this question.

They have had a horrible experience with Britain, when Britain destroyed the people of China by making them opuim addicts and destroyed any opposition. The japanese brutality during WW2 and the period before that is very well remembered. The Japanese used to look down upon the Chinese as the inferior race.

The idea which has tremendous appeal is that of a coalation of China, Russia and India to form a strong common market. This will constitute 35-40 % of the world population, and will be a very strong entity if this idea gets implemented.

singularity # 4, Bbabu # 6

The article is basically about the Chinese people & the society. Not really a comparison with others.

There has been a deep one China ethos - and this civilization has been reuniting again and again after break ups. This has not happened in the case of the Greeks, Persians, Romans, Arabs, Indians.

China was the most advanced civilizatuion between 7-14 century. I believe Quran says `seek knowledge even if you have to go to China`. The Arabs also had a good spell during this period.

Other unique aspect is obviously its not having come up with any cosmic ideology.

But all is not hunky-dorey - presently it is running jumping towards Westernization - and historically, it has displayed a period urge to get back to its origin & culture; and shun foreign cultural influences.

Similarly, ther is another big question mark on its democratization - something that is alien to its history & society - and if democracy can ever be introduced. It is place where the civil society is replaced by the civil service.

So despite its economic growth, one still has to keep one`s fingers crossed. (India is better placed in this respect)

nhk

re:#1 by nikki7777
I am not even sure if u ever went to school or perhaps u were not a serious student of history.
India did not ditch Buddhism. It assimilated it into its own folds, so that Buddha is one of the pantheon of Gods albeit not a very popular one among Hindus today. Buddha Jayanti is celebrated in India even today.
Buddhism is an atheistic religion. India was a buddhist country for a 1000 years, good enough time to know which is better.
As somebody rightly said: Buddhism is like a castle without a well: u will feel great but will go thirsty!
Sridhar

Nazar Khan,
The chinese are ethnically united coz they are all Han chinese majority. That is their unifying factor. The Indians are more culturally and religiously stronger. And the Indians who are majority hindus have seen the worst of times and come out more or less united. The chinese have never really been tested that much. So we still dont know how much adversity the chinese can take, especially the religious onslaught of the christian and Islamic variety. The Hindus are inherently freedom loving and so democracy comes naturally to them. India cant be anything other than a democracy.

The chinese are pragmatic, so i would bet my money that they would evolve their own working version of a democracy , eventually.

Well, today there is only 2 modern nations,China and India, which represents the historical entities of China and Bharat. So in that sense they both have gotten back to their civilizational roots. There is no other modern examples with dynamic link and continuity to their historical entities. Not Egypt or Persia or Greece or any other modern nations.

I haven`t been to Mainland China lately, but from what I see and read and observe and hear, there are a few ``new`` Chinas arriving, with demographic changes occuring in notably:-

China - Southern Star (Australia)
China - Japanese Maruta (Taiwan)
China - Northern Voids Inhabit (The border areas with Russia)
China - Metro Edition (HK, Singapore, Macao)
China - Ocean Rulers (Merchant Navy)
China - Teak and Poppy (Myanmar)

I have always admired the way the Chinese community makes the business of supporting demographic movements so clinically perfect. Just the right amounts of sentiment, family and business.

One generation more at the most before they acquire good English skills, and then?

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Nazar Khan

Thank you for an informative article.


labyrinth1

Could you figure out why they feel like that toward the Indians? Were these only political reasons, or did people also offer some cultural reasons?

Passage to China

by Amartya Sen

The intellectual links between China and India, stretching over two thousand years, have had far-reaching effects on the history of both countries, yet they are hardly remembered today. What little notice they get tends to come from writers interested in religious history, particularly the history of Buddhism, which began its spread from India to China in the first century. In China Buddhism became a powerful force until it was largely displaced by Confucianism and Taoism approximately a thousand years later. But religion is only one part of the much bigger story of Sino-Indian connections during the first millennium. A broader understanding of these relations is greatly needed, not only for us to appreciate more fully the history of a third of the world`s population, but also because the connections between the two countries are important for political and social issues today.

Certainly religion has been a major source of contact between China and India, and Buddhism was central to the movement of people and ideas between the two countries. But the wider influence of Buddhism was not confined to religion. Its secular impact stretched into science, mathematics, literature, linguistics, architecture, medicine, and music. We know from the elaborate accounts left by a number of Chinese visitors to India, such as Faxian in the fifth century and Xuanzang and Yi Jing in the seventh,[1] that their interest was by no means restricted to religious theory and practices. Similarly, the Indian scholars who went to China, especially in the seventh and eighth centuries, included not only religious experts but also other professionals such as astronomers and mathematicians. In the eighth century an Indian astronomer named Gautama Siddhartha became the president of the Board of Astronomy in China.

The full text of the article is at here

Isphahani # 15

These CIA facts are just some of the indicators for general information and are not the basis of the thrust of the arguements.

The main thrust of the article is about the historical perspective and some of the factors that affected the society and culture.

nhk

Kaalchakra

Thanks. -:)