The Middle Kingdom Wallas

Romair # 45

No. I do not agree. My pessimism needs to be defined as realism.

And your anti-India pre-fixated bias colours your objectivity. India is on a much surer ground than China in the long run. Once the Chinese get prosperous, they are going to ask for civil freedoms. That is when the big test for China is going to come. It may have been bypassing the Glasnost & Perestroika so far - but the day of reckening has to come. Then the outcome is anybody`s gues.

China may handle it well or lose it all - who knows?

A strong civil society is against the grain of the Chinese history & culture.

nhk

rsridar#34

Very good post!

I was struck by this:
[ ``....Great quantities of plunder were obtained, and the slaughter of the `shaven headed Brahmans`, that is to say the Buddhist monks...]
This shows what I always believed, at that time, Buddhism was a `panth` or a `marg` and buddhist monks were no more than brahmins, and maybe even brahmins by caste.
Buddha won`s people allegiance through sheer force of reasoning, and Adi Sankara won people back also by the same force of reasoning.
There is a modern tendency to equate Buddhism as a movement of the lower castes. It was nothing of the sort. The debates took place mostly among the intellectuals and the followers of Buddha -I wouldn`t call it conversion as we understand the word today- were also mostly brahmins and kshatriyas.
However, the view about buddhism influencing vegetarianism seems more `meaty` to me. There is ample evidence that brahmins and kshatriya ate meat in the pre-buddhist times.

Romair:

By laissez faire, I did not mean that the hindus are not religious, but that they are not particular about how anyone practices or does not practice their religion, although they are more ritualistic [so are the Chinese, btw].

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Romair #45,

India does not have to be a superpower. It is good enough if it lifts 300 million of its poorest above the $1 per day sustenance levels. Assume that happens in another 70 years. Isn`t it an amazing feat by itself for a democratic (chaotic), impoverished country? India cannot ever coerce another country by pushing it into a corner. What it can do is win the hearts and minds with its culture, popular music and movies (movies are a joke, though). We don`t need to be a superpower. All that we want is the next time an earthquake or a tsunami occurs, our government delivers swiftly. The next time a government does not act swift, we can change it without much bloodshed. All that we want is working relationships with the countries on all our borders. Don`t want any more land. Believe me, some Kashmiri youth recently protested for call centers to be setup in Kashmir. Economics is the key. Religion is good only when you are in the house. More and more Indians are realizing this, and its a good sign.

NHK, we wish Pakistan the best too. And, I am sure it will do well again like in the past once the religious fanaticism in your country is brought under check, and the rulers stop their international ventures.

The lack of any kind of dogma has done a great deal of good to the Chinese society in general. Also, did their pragmatism. But I have seen them go great lengths defending everything of their current political setup. It could be doing good to the hundreds of millions of them. But they do not seem to recognize that there are alternatives to just communist party elections. Having said that, subcontinentals have many pages to learn from their book; their hardworking nature, respect for elders, pragmatism, humility, and civility.

Too much of religion, too much of Bollywood, did so much of bad to the youth

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NHK #49: ``No. I do not agree. My pessimism needs to be defined as realism
And your anti-India pre-fixated bias colours your objectivity.``

This is a cheap shot. I never called you anti-Pakistan. Although I could conveniently state that, as well. I always debate your facts on merit and challenge them. You have taken the easy way out and instead of arguing my point and statistics, you have simply declared me, ``anti-something.``

So, if someone does not agree with your declaration that country A is a potential superpwoer, they become anti-country A!!!

I am not anti-India. Just like I don`t think you are anti-Pakistan. I have made more critiques of Pakistan, than of India. Does that make me anti-Pakistan? I have talked about the domination of Punjab. Does that make me anti-Punjabi? And I don`t have an anti-India bias. I back up every statement I make with statistics and surveys. Some of these will seem anti-India, some will seem pro-India. Some will seem pro-Pakistan, some will seem anti-Pakistan. One should not worry about that. One should just make sure the info one is providing is based on fact.

I am pro-fact, and anti-sensationalism. And I found some of your comments to be sensationalist, and highlighted them. You should counter my arguments with your facts, and prove them wrong. Rather than just conveniently declaring me to be, ``anti-India.``

At the same time, I don`t think your pessimism is realism. You need to back up your claims with statistics for it to be considered realism.

1. You had pointed out that India is an, ``up-coming super power.``

I have challenged you on that. Just like I would challenge someone who would say that Pakistan is an up and coming Islamic superpower. I don`t like jingoism that makes statements with no basis -be they anti or pro Pakistan or India.

What are you basing this statement on? If you state that India is an up and coming IT superpower, I would definitely agree. But how are stating that it is an up and coming overall superpower. Do you have any surveys to base your facts on? The only ones I have seen state that India is a potential huge consumer market. That is about it.

2. The second point I have challenged you on is that trade between India and Pakistan will not make any huge economic dents in either country. This is what I am stating. I have given examples of surrounding countries, with which India trades, to justify it.

3. ``India is on a much surer ground than China in the long run.```

Once again, what are you basing this on? Do you have some info to back this up? There are indices that gauge the stability of countries and organizations. Have you used any of those? One good way to judge the stability of a country is to see where the money is flowing. Money always flows to the most stable markets. This is why USA gets so much money flowing into it. Similarly China is getting a lot.

dost-mittar #50: ``By laissez faire, I did not mean that the hindus are not religious, but that they are not particular about how anyone practices or does not practice their religion, although they are more ritualistic [so are the Chinese, btw].``

Thanks for the clarification. I don`t know much about religion, inside India. So I cannot comment, much. I just have some statistics available to me and I was surprised to find that India was ranked fourth in the world, in terms of importance of religion. One would actually have to visit India to see how that works. But seeing the Indians around me, I would have to agree with you. They all seem to have a bit different interpretation of religion. At the same time, so do the Pakistanis who belong to the upper middle class and migrate here.

I don`t know how rigid the common man in India is, regarding religion. The common Pakistani is quite rigid on religion. But that is more due to cultural and social issues. For example, nearly all the women work in the villages. They work in the upper-middle class. But they don`t work in the urban lower-middle and middle class in large numbers.........

dost-mittar 30 I get your point. That incident in itself does not mean that poor are in a worse posiiton. But how exactly do we know about that? I dont think macro economic indicators are proof enough. The perspective that it is not just a simple ``wart`` but something which involved about a million people who got HIV through the callousness of officials and not a single bureaucratic head has rolled, is very terrifying.Some official tried to get rich quick by an unregulated business of blood selling, and destroyed innumerable lives. But he still is unharmed. No trials,no nothing. Peasants are being beaten up for protesting against lack of healthcare.Whistleblowers are being detained.I wonder how many of such ``warts`` are still waiting to be uncovered?

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resources:
3D-model of Zheng He`s Ship, by: PBS.org
As this striking animation shows, the ships of Zheng He would have dwarfed European vessels of the time. COPYRIGHT: PBS.org
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sultan/explorers.html

References:
In the Wake of the Admiral by: Time Magazine
Six centuries after Admiral Zheng He set sail, Adi Ignatius finds a China still struggling with its place in the world.
http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/journey2001/intro.html

When China Ruled the Seas by: Louise Levathes
China`s Naval History. Oxford University Press, 1994.

Archaeology and the Social History of Ships by: Richard A. Gould
Chinese``Junks``. Cambridge University Press, 2000.

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Zheng He, the Chinese Muslim Admiral

Little did the famous Muslim geographer, Ibn Battuta know, that about 22 years after his historic visit to China, the Mongol Dynasty (called the Yuan Dynasty in China) would be overthrown. The Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644) would begin. A Muslim boy would help a Chinese prince. That prince would become emperor and the boy would grow up to be the ``Admiral of the Chinese Fleet.``

His name... Zheng He. The ships that he would sail throughout the Indian Ocean would retrace some of the same routes taken by Ibn Battuta, but he would be in huge boats called ``junks``. He would go to East Africa, Makkah, Persian Gulf, and throughout the Indian Ocean.

Speak of the world`s first navigators and the names Christopher Columbus or Vasco da Gama flash through a Western mind. Little known are the remarkable feats that a Chinese Muslim Zheng He (1371-1433) had accomplished decades before the two European adventurers.

The Foundation for Science Technology and Civilisation (info@fstc.co.uk) retraces the route of China’s 15th century admiral, Zheng He, who ranks as perhaps the country’s foremost adventurer. A Muslim and a warrior, Zheng He helped transform China into the region’s, and perhaps the world’s, superpower of his time.

In 1405, Zheng was chosen to lead the biggest naval expedition in history up to that time. Over the next 28 years (1405-1433), he commanded seven fleets that visited 37 countries, through Southeast Asia to faraway Africa and Arabia. In those years, China had by far the biggest ships of the time. In 1420 the Ming navy dwarfed the combined navies of Europe.

Ma He, as he was originally known, was born in 1371 to a poor ethnic Hui (Chinese Muslims) family inYunnan Province, Southwest China. The boy`s grandfather and father once made an overland pilgrimage to Makkah. Their travels contributed much to young Ma`s education. He grew up speaking Arabic and Chinese, leaming much about the world to the west and its geography and customs.

Recruited as a promising servant for the Imperial household at the age of ten, Ma was assigned two years later to the retinue of the then Duke Yan, who would later usurp the throne as the emperor Yong Le. Ma accompanied the Duke on a series of successful military campaigns and played a crucial role in the capture of Nanjing, then the capital. Ma was thus awarded the supreme command of the Imperial Household Agency and was given the surname Zheng.

Emperor Yong Le tried to boost his damaged prestige as a usurper by a display of China`s might abroad, sending spectacular fleets on great voyages and by bringing foreign ambassadors to his court. He also put foreign trade under a strict Imperial monopoly by taking control from overseas Chinese merchants. Command of the fleet was given to his favorite Zheng He, an impressive figure said to be over eight feet tall.

A great fleet of big ships, with nine masts and manned by 500 men, each set sail in July 1405, half a century before Columbus`s voyage to America. There were great treasure ships over 300-feet long and 150-feet wide, the biggest being 440-feet long and 186-across, capable of carrying 1,000 passengers. Most of the ships were built at the Dragon Bay shipyard near Nanjing, the remains of which can still be seen today.

Zheng He`s first fleet included 27,870 men on 317 ships, including sailors, clerks, interpreters, soldiers, artisans, medical men and meteorologists. On board were large quantities of cargo including silk goods, porcelain, gold and silverware, copper utensils, iron implements and cotton goods. The fleet sailed along China`s coast to Champa close to Vietnam and, after crossing the South China Sea, visited Java, Sumatra and reached Sri Lanka by passing through the Strait of Malacca. On the way back it sailed along the west coast of India and returned home in 1407. Envoys from Calicut in India and several countries in Asia and the Middle East also boarded the ships to pay visits to China. Zheng He`s second and third voyages taken shortly after, followed roughly the same route.

In the fall of 1413, Zheng He set out with 30,000 men to Arabia on his fourth and most ambitious voyage. From Hormuz he coasted around the Arabian boot to Aden at the mouth of the Red Sea. The arrival of the fleet caused a sensation in the region, and 19 countries sent ambassadors to board Zheng He`s ships with gifts for Emperor Yong Le.

In 1417, after two years in Nanjing and touring other cities, the foreign envoys were escorted home by Zheng He. On this trip, he sailed down the east coast of Africa, stopping at Mogadishu, Matindi, Mombassa and Zanzibar and may have reached Mozambique. The sixth voyage in 1421 also went to the African coast.

Emperor Yong Le died in 1424 shortly after Zheng He`s return. Yet, in 1430 the admiral was sent on a final seventh voyage. Now 60 years old, Zheng He revisited the Persian Gulf, the Red Sea and Africa and died on his way back in 1433 in India.

Zheng He`s flag ``treasure ship`` was four hundred feet long - much larger than Columbus`s. In this drawing, the two flagships are superimposed to give a clear idea of the relative size of these two ships. Columbus`s ship St. Maria was only 85 feet long whilst Zheng He`s flag ship was an astonishing 400 feet.

Imagine six centuries ago, a mighty armada of Zheng He`s ships crossing the China Sea, then venturing west to Ceylon, Arabia, and East Africa. The fleet consisting of giant nine-masted junks, escorted by dozens of supply ships, water tankers, transports for cavalry horses, and patrol boats. The armada`s crew totaling more than 27,000 sailors and soldiers.

Loaded with Chinese silk and porcelain, the junks visited ports around the Indian Ocean. Here, Arab and African merchants exchanged the spices, ivory, medicines, rare woods, and pearls so eagerly sought by the Chinese imperial court.

Seven times, from 1405 to 1433, the treasure fleets set off for the unknown. These seven great expeditions brought a vast web of trading links -- from Taiwan to the Persian Gulf -- under Zheng He`s imperial control. This took place half a century before the first Europeans, rounding the tip of Africa in frail Portuguese caravels, `discovered` the Indian Ocean.

Zheng He (1371-1433), or Cheng Ho, is arguably China`s most famous navigator. Starting from the beginning of the 15th Century, he traveled to the West seven times. For 28 years, he traveled more than 50,000 km and visited over 37 countries. Zheng He died in the tenth year of the reign of the Ming emperor Xuande (1433) and was buried in the southern outskirts of Bull`s Head Hill (Niushou) in Nanjing.

In 1983, during the 580th anniversary of Zheng He`s voyage, his tomb was restored. The new tomb was built on the site of the original tomb and reconstructed according to the customs of Islamic teachings.

At the entrance to the tomb is a Ming-style structure, which houses the memorial hall. Inside are paintings of the man himself and his navigation maps. To get to the tomb, there are newly laid stone platforms and steps. The stairway consists of 28 stone steps divided into four sections with each section having seven steps. This represents Zheng He`s seven journeys to the West. Inscribed on top of the tomb are the Arabic words ``Allahu Akbar (God is Great)``.

Related Articles:

A review of Muslim Geography by: FSTC Limited
Muslim geography opened up a vast knowledge of the world. Islam urged people to open their minds and horizons, and know about the wonders of God’s creation and thus Muslim geographers ventured across the known and unknown world.

Mapping the World by: Datuk Dr. Syed Othman Al-Habshi

Dr.Alhabshi discusses some of the great contributions to geography by early Muslims who were driven by an intense interest not only to gain knowledge but also to serve others rather than greed or fame - a genuine Islamic outlook.

Piri Reis maps America by: FSTC Limited

In 1513 Piri Reis presented his famous map of the New World to the Sultan, giving the Ottomans, well before many European rulers, an accurate description of the American discoveries as well as details about the circumnavigation of Africa.

Thought provoking article and debate.

Some of my thoughts. The new world order that is emerging, ironically religionalist and fundamentalist will be responsible to make religion less important through war of words and weapons; moderates in all societies will gain more space and power; to ensure economic health - nation-states will weaken and emergence of continental size economies will create multi-polar society.

Recent CIA report is a clear pointer to the future where emerging power of India and China is mentioned for debate and understanding, while reducing influence of the U.S. power is also in the forecast.

Another important impact of this world reorder driven by economic priorities will be the recognition of world assets - Oil, Internet Infrastructure, Monetary System, etc. belonging to the world and not to a single nation-state. For the Arab and Islamic world it will mean lesser control over the oil. And good news for skill-surplus regions of the world, means more economic prosperity.

Iraq war, will prove that economic might is more important than the military might. The world best economy will solve the problem in Iraq, rather than the world`s best miltary might. In fact the world`s best economies will solve the problem in Iraq that the world`s most powerful miltary might would leave there.

For Pakistan, choices will be to become the eastern frontier of declining Arab world, or the western frontier of emerging Asian economic powers. With Turkey aligning itself with EU, the Islam as a power block will wither, therefore, the claim of Pakistan being the Islamic superpower is more Quixotic than reality.

In modern day trade, access to warm water ports is not important as air links and Internet links. This means modern technology, modern skills, modern manufacturing and capital are more important (currently neither Pakistan nor Islam has any of of these) than nuclear weapons or conventional army. Pakistan`s visionary leaders do recognize this, from my discussions with the few whom I know quite well.

For some Pakistanis obssessed with satistics and facts, and buried in this jungle, I only want to remind that vision happens first to create statistics and facts. Please give up obsession with facts and statistics, besides these can be interpreted in more than one way. Please remember Pakistani dilemma is not Kashmir, Kashmir is the obsession of its ruling Punjabis.

For them there is a message coming form even the China and Chinese who have learnt to co-exist with Taiwan and Taiwanese. Pakistan and Pakistanis and India and Indians will learn to coexist too. Despite Kashmir.

Like Chinese, and Taiwanese periodically call for the destruction of Taiwan to the independence of Taiwan, I believe, there will be a time for Indians and Paksitanis to call each other names in the name of Kashmir. As longs as the match is reduced to name calling the world around, will accept.

I also want to remind Romair, the stastitics and facts obssessed person, that nations have interests and people have friends. Therefore, India and Pakistan do not have to become friends to do business. I am confident that India and Pakistan will have interests while Indians and Pakistanis will have friends. When India and Paksitan have more common interest, Kashmir will look very different, once the muslim colored glasses are removed, as the fundamentalist religionalists fight and reduce the importance religion and people accept and retire it to their personal space.

India and China have naturally lived and co-existed for centuries. Panchsheel principles of peaceful co-existance were not invented by Nehru and Chau En Lai. They indeed were the basis of spreading buddha`s message to Asia. Please note that chop-stick culture suddenly stops at eastern gates of India. This has peacefully co-existed for most of the 5,000 years except for 50 years. Indochina has been, and so is Nepal, a peaceful buffer between two Asian powers. They had paddled their influence and will continue to do so.

Interestingly, there are very few good written words about Indian civilization by the Arab visitors, but the Chinese visitors wrote eloquently about Indian civilization, thoughts and technologies moved freely between these two Asian giants.

Anil Kapuria

Sometimes, when I read about China and India, as the emerging superpowers, I wonder what either of the counties has to offer to the rest of the world. Neither of them have any ideology nor any values, and not even principles that can address the contemporary problems in the world. Being a good shopkeeper is not equivalent to being a leader and a guide. So what, if they start selling and buying most of the stuff produced in the world – then what?

China has a political system that is probably working very well for now for them but it is not an exemplary system that the rest of the world is looking at with awe; and same thing goes for their economic system. Similarly, in India, they have a political system that they borrowed from West, and that is the best they could do. The inherent weaknesses that come with a capitalist system in a country, which doesn’t have capital, are apparent. The system may not collapse in the short term, but this is just the beginning. As people, Indians act like the mirasi whose eldest son have just returned from Dubai. The fact of the matter is that they do not have defence or manufacturing related capital industry that forms the backbone of superpower infrastructure – even the medium-tech equipment in this category is bought from outside. The infrastructure for research is non-existent; investment in research and development of technology is archaic and belongs to the level of 19th century; all they have is consumer industry, which is meant to meet the demands of the consumer and not for interplanetary domination. Let’s be honest here, that India and China both are low to medium tech labour pools- no more no less. Could someone please explain to me how with all these basic shortcomings they are going to dominate or for that matter lead the world? ….. what are they gonna do for political leverage? … stop sewing shoes for the rest of the world?…or they will threaten to make only one legged pants?

The truth of the matter is that world is clamouring out for political and economic equity. It already has one too many superpowers. It doesn’t need more – thank you very much. Lets all please get out of 19th century, which ended a hundred years ago. Now this world has shrunken to the size of a village and at the same time capitalists are becoming more vicious and more aggressive in response – because that is the only option they are left with. What happened in the aftermath of Tsunami is an eye opener; Capitalists were forced to open the coffers, which they did grudgingly; all to avert a global sedition, which now seems so inevitable.

re: #62 by Urstruly
``The infrastructure for research is non-existent; investment in research and development of technology is archaic and belongs to the level of 19th century``
Are u talking about Pakistan?
A lot of research happen in some premier institutions in India. Perhaps u do not notice because u, like Romair, have blinkers on. You need to step out of your Jehadi shoes, smell coffee (instead of whatever it is that u smell regularly peddled near the Afghan border) and think for a change.
China is leapfrogging in research. I recently attended a conference in my area of specialization. There were a number of international attendees but the only international paper from Asia was by China!
China and India are civilzational countries and will regain their lost prestige in years to come. Perhaps nature (or call it God) weeded out the worst elements from India in 1947 (when Pak was formed) so India can progress. I can see why this was good for India today.
Sridhar

re:#62 by Urstruly
Economists in the 60s used to write off India as a basket case. India imported food grain from outside. They must all be running for cover today.
India not only produces enough for itself but has been exporting food grain.
During this Tsunami, India showed it can sustain itself.
No doubt, India needs to do a great deal more but then it is on the right path. India is generating growth through its knowledge based industries (outsourcing almost everything; recently, i heard even the school tutions from USA, lawyer`s accounts are being outsourced!). This will generate prosperity in the years to come.
IT, ITES are a big thing in India. India is also making a name in Biotechnology, Pharmaceuticals.
There is tremendous potential but it is too soon to say that India could be a superpower. The bigger question is: does one have to be a superpower? If India can take its masses out of poverty in the next 50 years, that will in itself be a great leap for humanity.
Sridhar