Let the People Meet

amit #58

`` Precisely!! We can influence them to change their ideology by increasing people to people contact. The more Pakistanis get to visit India, meet Indians and see things for themselves, the more likely they are to change their own system as well. Already it is having an impact. Check out the hawkish Pakistani newspapers like Nation. These papers are full of editorials and op-eds about why Pakistan should restrict or stop the people to people contact. They can see that the people`s viewpoints are changing which is a direct challenge to the existing ideology of the Pakistani establishment. ``

Over the long run the Pakistani establishment cannot be out of sync with the Pakistani populace. If the Pakistani people desire friendship with Indians the establishment will move in that direction. People to people contacts is not a decisive factor. It may influence the pace of the changes.

#58 by amit

I think that people to people contact thing is overblown. Not That I don’t support the p2p contacts. In fact, I am all for opening all borders for people to freely travel within the legal requirements/ boundaries placed by both governments. P2P would mostly benefit divided Muslim and Sindhi families and that is good as there are plenty of them. There may be some upsurge in traffic initially, but sooner than later fascination would wear off, as there is not a whole lot difference in economic living standards in both countries. The lifestyle in Punjab is so similar that tourist may not have much interest in that and tourist type of traffic would go down very quickly.
The important part is to increase cultural exchanges and both countries should agree to bring their rhetoric down. Once people have time to think with their heads not blown away by constant propaganda, they would take a rational approach.
People that would change perception would be travelers who bring some thing to the common folks. The wild eye tourists would only visit some areas and soon they will be just a source to make money.
The emphasis should be on cultural exchanges including students’ travels to educational institutions.

I am not aware of how Sindhi living in India feel about visiting Sindh. By nature they are a non-vocal group but I doubt their love for Sindh has diminished at all. I think Sindhi would love to see them back even though it may be for tourist type visits.

Re:rshridhar#56

Precisely!! We can influence them to change their ideology by increasing people to people contact. The more Pakistanis get to visit India, meet Indians and see things for themselves, the more likely they are to change their own system as well. Already it is having an impact. Check out the hawkish Pakistani newspapers like Nation. These papers are full of editorials and op-eds about why Pakistan should restrict or stop the people to people contact. They can see that the people`s viewpoints are changing which is a direct challenge to the existing ideology of the Pakistani establishment.

There are almost 150 visitors from Pakistan due into Pune today under the auspices of the ``World Foundation for Reverence`` (ideology strict vegetarianism . . .).

re:#50 by amit
``France, Germany and England fought brutal wars for centuries and have many commonalities including religion and race. Yet they are all friends today``
France, England (with allied forces) had to defeat the Nazis before they became friends with Germans.
Pak is not a problem. It is the ideology that it espouses that is the problem. If it becomes secular and democratic, India and Pak could be friends.
Gosh! Some people just don`t get it.
Sridhar

arjun_m #36
``
Says Manzoor, who spent several months making the BBC programme: ``Many of the young Hindu women I spoke to said they saw no reason to be lumped with the rioters.````

The guy was prob. too chicken to relate what the Pakistani Muslim `rioters` demographic thought of young Hindu women. Now that would have been illuminating, and would have put the issue beyond help of spin and interpretation.

Re:nikki7777#52

I agree with you to the extent that desis are a very emotional people, which leads to temporary insanity as in 1947 or temporary euphoria, as is the present state of Indo-Pak relations. If you step back and look at things from a historical perspective, the people in the regions of India and Pakistan were never rivals, even though they lived under different political dispensations. No one from the Indian side, except for the Sikhs, ruled anyone in Pakistan. Similarly no one from the Pakistani side ever ruled anyone in India. All our muslims rulers were from Central Asia, Middle East etc. Pakistanis have been muslims for 1000 years without any conflict with rest of North India. Now we do have an ideological battle going on since 1947 about whether we can live with each other or not. The reality is that we have always coexisted peacefully. Given that we Indians are in a position of strength with our economic and military muscle, we should deal with Pakistanis with confidence and do what it is necessary for our national interest.

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Re:nikki7777#46

You are getting carried away. Why should India break up just because of good relations with Pakistan? France, Germany and England fought brutal wars for centuries and have many commonalities including religion and race. Yet they are all friends today and are part of the EU. They did not break up just because they patched up!! We are neighbors with Pakistan and we have to live with them in peace, for there is no other option. Why do we desis always have to be 200 years behind the goras?

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Hamid M

Yes the Mirpuris and the Bangladeshis have become the new ghetto dwellers, no doubt about it, all you need to do is look at east London!

However Punjabi Pakistanis or the ones i know are just as successful as the Sikh Punjabis, and the KHI vallahs are almost always in `educated` jobs and usually well to do. The distinction is moving not so much towards religion but more towards ethnicity.

Pak Punjabis joke about Sikha dey bara bajjay and am sure the Sikhs have their p*ss takes about us, however when it comes to taking the p*ss out of Gujeratis/KHI Urdu vallahs/ South Indians etc Sikh and Pak Punjabis come together in their jokes and abuse to these ethnicities.

The KHI people are different from the Punjabis who are in turn different from the Kashmiris, even though they all fall under the fold of Pakistan. Pak Punjabis have a lot more affinity and a lot more in common with Indian Punjabis than they do with KHI vallahs or Kashmiris, or Indian Muslim Gujeratis or any other Indian group. Punjabis wherever they go have the same kind of outlook and work ethic, and desire to succeed and do well, so regardless of whether they are Indian or Pakistani their success rates and way of living are similar.

The people from Kashmir (who do not describe themselves as Pakistani) come mainly from Mangla, when the dam was being built whole villages were transported to North England, those who are neighbours in Mangla are also neighbours in Bradistan aka Bradford. They never intermingled as they didn`t really have to.

You should watch the film called `Yasmin` if you can understand the english it is a good film with a good insight into their lives.

You will see in the future these demographics become more detailed as more people become educated on the different kinds of people with the grouping `Pakistani` & `Indian`. Also within Pakistani people, those people who are `Indian Heritage Pakistanis` i.e. Punjabi and UP mohajirs.

stuka,

...... i envy you - contrary to what herr vereesah says, lahore is the bestest city in the subcontinent ........now, it is possible i think so because i spent the best five years of my life there and in those days pindi/islamabad was a quite little village compared to lahore ............. they have the best food and, according to my father`s generation, heera mandi used to be the best cabaret in the subcontinent - unfortunately it has been ravaged by the mullahs but there are still some first-class kothas open for business and music from pakeeza is still `in`........... and i hear that kukoo`s is the place to eat - have ylh take you there for pjhaja`s paye ..........

............. the only problem with lahore is that you still have to drink kingfiser and mcdowell unless you want to splurge 5-7 thousand for a fifth of black label ......... have fun and drop a few bucks into the collection box at the rs for the jihad in kashmir .....................

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I was there for the candlelight vigil at the Wagah-attari border last year on Independence day. I went there with relatives, Dr Sandhu of the Punjab Folklore Manch and his wife Manveen Sandhu who run a school in Amritsar. The children of their school were collaborating on a play with children who had come from across the border for an exchange programme. The play was to be performed in Delhi, later Lahore and then for SAARC. Madeeha of the “Ajuka”theatre group from Lahore was also there with the children. It was exhilarating to see the camaraderie among the kids who were staying over at the Indian kid’s houses. We all set off the border in the school minibus. As we reached the border, we could see men lining the roads and people heading towards the border, mostly ambling along. Later we could see the kiosks that had been set up seeling eatables to other stuff as people tried to cash in on the event. We were surprised to see so many people. There were literally hundreds of them, mostly men and some in the true Punjabi tradition inebriated, but some women and children too. At the Border, a stage had been set up and there were speeches interspersed with music. That then was one of the reasons for the crowds. There were three to four prominent Punjabi singers performing tonight and as the night built up, the groups had the crowds clamouring for more of their favourite numbers.
The children performed a song “Aao khelein border border”. Kuldip Nayyar of the Hindi Pak Dosti Manch was there and I met a family form Pakistna Punjab, the Khokhars sitting on the cramped stage as well. Mr Khokhar was a politician and gave a well received impassioned speech for peace and unity. Sitaram Yechuri of the communist party was there as well. I gave a short speech too on behalf of the missing defence persons association and briefly mentioned how I hoped the issue would reach some conclusion. I pointed out how people with my surname were more likely to be found across the border and it indicated our common past( though all indicators point to a common past for all humans everywhere specially now with our common African ancestors) and how I hoped that both governments would look into their inhumane policies of incarcerating people from across the border without adequate grounds for years.
Dr Sandhu told me how in1999 their group who along with the Hindi Pak Dosti manch had been organizing the vigil for years went ahead with only 500 people attending as that was the year of the Kargil conflict and the Kuldip Nayyar group had backed out of the vigil. They hadn’t wanted the chain to break and had held the vigil at a site slightly away from the one today. I don’t know whether the crowds were there for the free musical concert but there was an air of peace and harmony but that was Wagah and not Kashmir or Gujarat but those are another story. But the movement is a significant one. All movements initially seem incredulous to people around. Who would have believed the communist countries would crash the way they did, like a house of ninepins. Who would have thought the Berlin wall would break, certainly not the Berliners themselves.

Re:stuka#42

Way to go, man!! I heard Basant in Lahore is really wild and the chicks are gorgeous. These fundamentalist Pakistanis sure know how to party :-). People have said that the Basant festivities in Lahore dwarf the Diwali celebrations in Delhi. Have a good time!!