Bharati Mukherjee : The American Dreamer

Zeynab,

Bharati Mukherjee belongs to the older generation of desi immigrants who had no confidence in their capabilities and were on a perpetual, unsuccessful mission to fit into American society. You see the confusing urge to go home one day while at the same time staying back and marrying a gora guy. The casual nature of her marriage process shows that it is a crude attempt to force herself into the American society. You can sense the desperate urge in her to be known as a American while trying to leverage her ethnic background for commercial benefit. The net result is someone who appears phony, pretentious, confused and basically a misfit in either society.

Today`s desi immigrants, the IIT/IIM guys for example, come to America and lead their life on their own terms. They have the confidence of knowing that they are good and they bring value to the table. Hence they do not neet validation from anyone. They have no conflicts on having divided loyalties to both India and America. They study in top institutions and get employed at top dollar by big companies or universities. In their careers, they do not mind keeping an international outlook and work elsewhere including in India. They do not feel any unusual pangs of cultural confusion doing all this. They get married on their own terms, socialize with whoever they feel like and lead life without worrying about what anyone thinks. I have noticed that Americans also tend to respect people who are real and unpretentious and who have the confidence about the value they bring to society.

Amit,

I will have to disagree with you. Bharati Mukherjee is entitled to think herself as an American and she may also dislike the hyphenation. But then why was she participating at an Asian-American Writer’s workshop when she disapproves of the term Asian-American.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re:nikki7777#3

Well said!! I totally agree with you.

Zeynab,

Thank you for the interview!

A lot of desi immigrants take for granted the work done by these first waves of Asian American writers. In my memory Mukherji was one of the first diasporic desi writers to look at class, labor, gender, immigration and Indo-Caribbeans in her novel Jasmine. The Middleman, her book of short stories lays down the tracks for writers like Gish Jen and Chang Rae Lee. In fact, some of the stories in the Middleman are filled with the early and uncomfortable negotiations of Afghanis, Indians, Phillipinas and even Anglo men with each other.

It seems Mukherjee is less interested in the comfort zones that many desis require when they pass thru Newark; bubble wrap for the mind, heart and soul. So it doesnt surprise me that most of the squeals on this board are from men, who probably wouldnt understand Nella Larsen`s Passing or Jean Toomer`s Cane if the Cliff Notes came attached.

Looking forward to more work from you!

Lovely picture, btw.

We could be more understanding. The world was a different place when Bharati Mukherjee came to the US.

Indians of earlier generations lived more isolated, uncertain lives than we do today. They were cut off from the homeland. They couldn`t find Indian food in their cities. They rarely had the pleasure of hearing a good word spoken about India. Many were repeatedly humiliated because ignorant, simple-minded, and often even the benevolently prejudiced semites couldn`t make head or tail of the `exotic` Indian religions.

Bharati Mukherjee was here in those days. Even if she did not want it to, the shingle hanging outside her doors clearly said `Indian.` All said and done, she was/is a path-breaker. We have benefitted from her. She deserves our respect.

Amit
``Bharati Mukherjee belongs to the older generation of desi immigrants who had no confidence in their capabilities and were on a perpetual, unsuccessful mission to fit into American society`` I thought she was a fairly successful writer apart from being Professor of English at the University of California-Berkeley.

So is it Bharti Mukherjee`s fault is that she is not from IIT (or other engineering/science background). Have you actually read her books? ``The casual nature of her marriage process `` Bhai sahib I am assuming that you are a family member and this was a hot topic at home. Incidentally the casual marriage in 1963 is now a 41 year old marriage.

``The net result is someone who appears phony, pretentious, confused and basically a misfit in either society`` how do you know that? Do you move in the same circles as her?

In addition to Subroto`s and Kaal`s comments, why does Mukherjee get this crap while Naipaul (who has written only two books I can read without need a shower for the slime of self loathing-Enigma of Arrival and House for Mr. Biswas) gets accolades?

Again, women writers are shams, disconnected, whores, transgressors, etc., while male desi writers are ``masterful``, ``witty`` and ``worldy``...

Subroto #9,

Nah, we don`t need to really know her socially to make personal remarks. The fact
that she didn`t go to an IIT is reason enough for disdain. And as for marrying a
gora - we all recognize that as a certain sign of cultural insecurity; only social climbers
do it.

Aap bhi....

Saminasha #6,

``So it doesnt surprise me that most of the squeals on this board are from men..``

Would you be willing to retract that statement if I can gather 5 women who squeal
just as hard (perhaps harder) ? I know it must give you a warm, fuzzy feeling to
take potshots at men in general, but you really need to work on constructing a logical
argument. Often, your arguments are not even wrong.

Re:subroto#9

Check out Nikki777`s response. He has grown up here and he knows exactly the attitude of earlier immigrants to the US. They thought they had won some kind of lottery to be able to get out of India and live with the goras. They looked down on everything desi, even as they tried desperately to fit in. When they failed to fit in, they came back to ``rediscover`` their roots with their tail between their legs.

The newer immigrants dont think it is such a big deal to live and work with goras and succeed here. If necessary, living in India is pretty good as well. We don`t mind keeping a foot in both places.

Amit #11,

Yes, we all agree that nikki is the modern day oracle of early desi immigrant
experience. However, taking a peek at secondary sources of information, like
the large body of desi immigrant literature by people not in nikki`s social circle,
may be valuable as well.

plats,

I beg your pardon? Could you point to anywhere in Mukherjee`s career where she needed her husband to ``social climb``? Was it when she was accepted into Iowa`s Writer`s Workshop? The publication of her short stories and Jasmine? Her various tenures?

What if she, like many desi women artists married someone not white or Muslim? Or from a less moneyed socio-eco background-and I can assure this happens all the time-more now.

What is it about desi women chosing whom they marry and being successful in their profs that is so galling for certain desi men?

As for your last ``comment``, go ahead and rustle up some new nicks...I`ll provide the hay-go to town...

Amit,

I`m thinking of two stories from The Middleman; one where an Indian woman in a sari attends a Mamet play with her Eastern European lover. The pivotal moment in that piece is where one of Mamet`s characters refers to Indian women as something the cat dragged in. The rest of the piece is unflinching.

The second piece I remember is told from an Italian American woman narrator`s pov. Her lover is an Afghani refugee. The setting is Thanksgiving with her family, the men who have no idea how to contextualize this man`s scars, the civil war in Afghanistan, the US`s role there, the family he left behind, his makeshift Afghani community, the fact that he was a prof in Afghanistan and now is employed in hard labor, what ``masculinity`` is.

Sure sounds like a lot of ``desi self hate``....

Re:Saminasha#14

Basically I feel that Bharati Mukherjee has an inferiority complex towards goras. On the other hand, I like Jhumpa Lahiri`s writing because it is fresh, contemporary and reflects US the way I know it.

Also I didn`t intend anything sexist in my remarks. Both VS Naipaul and Nirad Chaudhuri are anglophile writers who really worship the goras and look down on anything desi. VS Naipaul has his communal biases on top of it.

I have always wondered why so many desi writers write about their desi-ness, their journey from one culture to another, their straddling of two worlds, etc. etc. One can understand that migration has an affect on people, but is that the only thing that has had an affect on all of them. Is that the only issue they can intellectualize about?

It cannot just be a coincidence. They write about it because it sells. It puts them in a unique position, where they don`t have to compete with other gora writers, and they can tickle the imagination of a mostly gora audience with their exageration of, ``differences between two cultures.``

It is very difficult to attract a gora audience with a book on migrating from New Hampshire to Rhode Island. One would have to be an superbly good writer to pull it off. And one could not exagerate since everyone has seen N.H. and R.I. But one can pull off the above, if one writes about migrating from Delhi to Rhode Island. One can make it seem as the most exotic experience in the world, since very few goras have experienced it.

There is a new addition to this now. Religion; specifically Islam. If you can write good English and create controversy around Islam, you have got a publishing contract in your hand. Especially if you are a Muslim woman. But even Muslim men have been able to pull it off.

Then there are those, who can write well, and concentrate on the exotic migratory desi experience and go after religion (specifically Islam). They have got it made like none other. The two that come to mind are Naipaul and Rushdie. So much so that Rushdie, not only gets invited to talk on literature and the migratory experience, he has become some sort of a symbol of Islamic rennaissance in some intellectual circles as well!!........

One has to respect the desi writers, though, who don`t rely completely on their desi migratory experience and religious controversy to compete in the literary field. To me they are the best, because writing about N.H. to R.I. and doing it well, for an audience that understands both states, is far harder than writing about desi experiences to a gora audience that will believe anything one tells them..............

Re:Romair#16

The entire genre of desi immigrant experience in the US has become very cliched. How many times do you have to read about people coming to the US and looking at everything as if they are in Disneyland? Especially in today`s environment, where every Tom, Dick and Harry middle class desi family has someone or the other living in the states.

plats8

i`m sure it must warm the cockles of your desi heart to say that bharati mukherjee married clark blaise just to ``socially climb`` but no ji, you cannot criticize samina for taking potshots at men and then generalize about desis marrying goras as a sign of cultural insecurity and referring to ms. mukherjee as a social climber.

ms. mukherjee is considered by more than a few desi readers to be more assimilationist. . . and we can agree or disagree or agree to disagree on that. one can read other interviews that bharati ji has given and glean what she says from those and find contradictory statements. but to make such comments such as to her reasons for marrying clark blaise. . . khair. . .

i`d like to think you were being sarcastically tongue-in-cheek about the desis marrying goras part, but then again, i can`t make such assumptions about who you are now, can i?

Amit,

Is this notion of Mukherjee`s inferiority complex based on your interpretation of her work, or is it a reaction to her critique of the caste system in India?

It must be the latter, because if you had read her work, you would never make such claims.
Lahiri`s Gogol/Nikhil, sister and girlfriend are visiting the territory Mukherjee first imagined.

It being impossible to read Ms. Mukherjee and remain unaware of her background (in fact, the same goes for any writer) there wasnt much in this article that came as a suprise. What was surprising was the reaction of so many who apparently believe that she is some kind of Chaudhuri offspring, which she most assuredly is not! But I`d be willing to take their word for it - if they`ve actually bothered to read her work.

Otherwise, there`s really no difference between them and the people who believe Naipaul is a Hindu fundamentalist (!) because he dislikes Islam.

Oh, and btw - when she went to the US, the IITs were anything but the great institutions they are today. In fact they were considered a huge risk and a lot of kids were hesitant to join.

Samina #14 I think Plats` made a tongue-in-cheek remark.

Amit can you clarify the ``casual nature of her marriage`` comment?

Nobody is free of prejudices (including me the biggest prejudiced pig of all). But what`s so wrong in marrying outside your culture? A whole lot of young men from the subcontinent do it all the time to get foreign citizenship, get a quickie divorce and walk away - but a woman who got married over 40 years ago to a Canadian (and is still married to him), has two sons by him is condemned for her ``inferiority complex towards goras``. So what would be the reaction if she had married a muslim? Would she then have an ``inferiority complex towards muslims`` or ``superiority complex towards hindus``?

The fresh, contemporary Jhumpa Lahiri married Time journalist Alberto Vourvoulias-Bush around 4 years ago. Any comments? Or women are now allowed that choice so denied to the older ones?

(And no offense intended here - just seeking clarification on comments).

Amrita,

Let me add Miguel Street to the list of Naipaul books I like. But I thought Bend in the River and Among the Believers as poorly written and unimaginative.

Subroto/Ana,

``I think Plats` made a tongue-in-cheek remark.``..and

``i`d like to think you were being sarcastically tongue-in-cheek about the desis marrying goras``

And both of you would`ve thought right. Aap dono salamat rahe, but shame on you
for taking away Samina`s desi-man bulls-eye. It would`ve been fun to see another
display of presumptuous arrogance.

Saminasha #14,

``As for your last ``comment``, go ahead and rustle up some new nicks...I`ll provide
the hay-go to town...``

I`m afraid I don`t even get this. Why would I need to assume new nicks ? Neither
do I get the hay reference. In the meantime, hang your ideology on any peg that
comes to mind. I do find it astonishing that you don`t see the gaping logical holes in
your statements. Oh well, it must be my ``hard science bias``, eh ?

Saminasha - There are a number of Naipaul books that I love and there are a number of Naipaul books that offend me even as they manage to impress me with their craft. And I`d have to agree with you on your choices. But what one frequently forgets about him is the fact that he loves to be A Sensation. So he`ll write controversial things that get him written up but when he has to explain himself, he`ll exhibit a depth of thinking that all too often stand whatever he has written directly on its head. Reading Naipaul is a good way to find out how much you believe in free speech. And - dare I say it? - I`m a fan.

BM on the other hand is a much more uncomplicated read - she kind of straddles the commercial with the literary, according to me. I could read her, have a fun time doing so, keep her on my shelf and will buy a new book when I come across it (btw, she`s coming out with a sequel/prequel to Desirable Daughters, if you`re interested). Naipaul will be read, re-read, discussed, emailed, and hauled out at every party.

Re:saminasha#19

I hate the caste system in India but I am a proud nationalist who loves Indian civilization. Anyway, lets agree to disagree.

As far as Jhumpa Lahiri`s Namesake is concerned, I found Gogol`s character to be quite fascinating. In fact, not only Gogol but his girlfriend/wife Moushumi and his sister, seemed to be realistic protrayals of today`s second generation Indian-Americans. They have unconventional lifestyles, unconventional relationships and they value their individuality. The contrast with their parent`s generation is quite striking. Their parent`s generation is trying to assimilate all the time without any success, while the kids do not really care and do whatever they choose. Ironically, it is the kids who end up being more assimiliated into the American melting pot. In fact, the book illustrates the dramatic differences in the two generations, which is probably also a reflection of the differences between Mukherjee and Lahiri.

Re:subroto#20

Just read the article to which we are all interacting here. In case you missed it here is the paragaraph -

``While she did not give in to her impulsive urge to go back home upon arrival, two years later she did on impulse marry a fellow student and writer Clark Blaise during a lunch break in a lawyer`s office above a coffee shop, only a few weeks after she had met him. She fell in love with him, she says, possibly because he was ‘someone so totally outside the Brahmanic pale of civilization’ but mostly because he had blue eyes. ‘I hadn`t really seen blue eyes before that and he was also a nice guy’, she explains. Her questionable but resolute fancy for blue eyes consequently cut her off forever from the rules and ways of upper-middle-class life in Bengal, hurling her into ‘a new life of scary improvisations and heady explorations’. ‘Until my lunch-break wedding, I had seen myself as an Indian foreign student who intended to return to India to live. The five-minute ceremony in the lawyer`s office suddenly changed me into a transient with conflicting loyalties to two very different cultures,’ she says. ``

Did you notice that she married someone after knowing him for a few weeks because he is outside the Brahmanic pale of civilization and he had blue eyes, that too in a five minute ceremony!! In other words, it is a blue eyed gora guy, so fall at his feet and marry him as soon as possible before he changes his mind and at the same time score a point against one`s own civilization. What a disgusting, slavish attitude!! It is very similar to Nirad Chaudhuri`s fawning over the Brits and hatred of anything desi.

I dont know about Jhumpa Lahiri`s personal life except that she married her long-term boyfriend. Heck, I dont care who marries whom and from what race. Hope it is for love or at least some other personal reason. I can even understand the motivation to get a green card. But who gets married just to score a point against Brahmanic civilization? Someone with a very low self-esteem and a hatred against one`s own culture. Of course, she thought she would become a gora by association. As the saying goes - ``Kaua chala hans ki chaal (Crow tries to be a swan)``. Once she didnt get that, she went back to her roots.

Plats,

Do you see the dif between your, Amit`sm Romair`s and Nikki`s and Amrita and Subroto`s remarks? Reading is ``good`` for you.... that way you have something concrete to contribute...

Amit,

Oh I dont know...Gogol and Moushumi could be characters out of a Mukherjee short story...they are both questioning identity...why do both end up hooking up with goray folk?

In fact, doesnt Gogol/Nikhil date one of his girlfriends to have access to a world (you know, the one with the parents and the townhouse?) his parents could never give him? Doesnt he feel that alienation that the Indian woman in Mukherjee`s short story I had mentioned feel? Actually, Nikhil has several Anglo girlfriends...why isnt he accused to ``hating himself`` and ``dating`` up?

Have you read Mukherjee, btw?

Amrita,

Those three books are the only ones by Naipaul that I have any use for. And only in very specific areas...otherwise I think a great deal of more exciting work is being written and published by the women writers Romair dismisses as ``sensationalist`` or ``marketable``...

The theme of writing about the desi experience (and for some religion also) is a theme far too common in so many desi writers` writing, that I don`t see how anyone can ignore it. One can understand writing one book on this experience. But when a majority of one`s books are on this experience, and on no other experience, then one really has to start wondering, whether these people are intellectualizing or just trying to make money.

I am not talking about the current author, since I haven`t read her. But I have read quite a few other desi authors. Though, I really find it hard to believe that an educated person in India has ever seen blue eyes.

Let us take the king of all writers: Salman Rushdie. He is literally worshipped in the literary circles. His Midnight`s Children won the Booker and the Booker of Bookers, i.e. the best book written in 25 years. What are his biggest claims to fame: Midnight`s Children, Shame and Satanic Verses. He is apparently still experiencing immigration, as he lives in England and the USA.

Others are the same.

Don`t they experience anything else in their lives, other than immigration. What about love? Or war? Or taxes? Or the American experience? A birth of a child? etc. etc. What about writing about something other than their own experience, immigration or otherwise? Obviously, they have written every single book on these issues. But invariably, immigration is the most common one. Why?

Probably because one can make such writings as exotic as one wants and the gora audience will eat it up, if it is coming from someone who doesn`t look like them. Specially if it has religious customs built into it; specifically those based on stereotypes.

It would be nice to see a first book on the immigration experience. And then remaining books on other experiences. I have started reading the Pakistani-American Zulfiqar Ghose. He has apparently written a lot of his stuff on South America, which should be interesting...........

Romair,

The best ``hyphen`` books are experimentations on the ``immigrant`` experience...and they address all the issues you bring up and more. Once again, I point to Chang Rae Lee`s A Gesture Life as a profound mediation on America, assimilation and Korean-Japanese history. And there are some Pakistani Americans who are doing similar work...they tend to be multi media...

In Jasmine, Mukherjee foregrounds the narrative of a young working class Guyanese woman who works as a domestic worker and child caretaker for an American couple. I find it interesting that she chose that particular perspective rather than one that more obviously reflective of her experience. I say obviously because it may be that there are specific kinds of dissonance that are universal.

Romair,

Methinks you are loading too many of your own understanding of the world onto authors. There is a rather interesting essay called The Hedgehog and the fox. Might interest you in understanding this entire phenomenon of why some authors belabour as you woudl see it, one issue, while others move from one theme to another.

Amrita/Saminasha,

I think Naipaul too is a soft target for thoerising because of a difficult mal-adjusted personality he possesses. That said, if any of you have any doubts about the man`s integrity, I suggest you read a book he has written in, but claims will never read. ``Letters from father abnd son.`` It is a rather compelling portrait od a man who ``wrote for a living, and has pursued no other interests.``...or something similar.

This is another article that is being caught in the winds of uninformed opinion, and some freely tossed prejudices. Much l;ike Veeresh`s.

That said, I would think Amit might benefit from a more informed study of the development of immigrant literature. There is a body of poetry about the early immigrants from India in English, that actually is the most important English poetry work post-independence.

Atr least Indians on this board would remember Nissim Ezekiel, and G parthasarthy etc. The Oxford Anthology of Ten Indian Poets.

If one starts from there, this experience passes through Raja Rao, and Mulk Raj Anand Niraj Chowdhury et all. By that time, a lot of themes were tackled...which seems to be made more accessible by the new lot....Mukherhjee, Lahiri et all.

Rushdie wrote the breakthrough one...I love to privately imagine that Rushdie was the peaking of Mulk Raj Anand`s Indianisation of English...and Raj Rao`s meditation of identity on the east-west crossroads...as in The serpent and the rope. Anand was rather stodgily Indian...while Rao was esoterically Indian....and Rushdie peaaked in merging both in his fiction...and then clarifying in his non-fiction.

I think it is the same process from the woman`s point of view. What Chitra Divakuruni writes, and Mukherjee writes is not less profound...just less easily accessible. Lahiri made it accessible, and I might say at some cost to the complexities of the issue. It is rather a worthless cottage industry to psycho-analise their personalities or to dilineate their generation`s charcteristics on the basis of such insignificant pieces of biography as a impulsive marriage. Just as, the longevity of the marriage is no argument against Amit`s version of the marriage being a sham.

Amit, ok, I apologise I missed that context.
But while you interpret her ``‘someone so totally outside the Brahmanic pale of civilization’ `` statement as ``it is a blue eyed gora guy, so fall at his feet and marry him as soon as possible before he changes his mind and at the same time score a point against one`s own civilization.``, I`d focus on what came next ``and he was also a nice guy``. The other point is that she is not condemning Brahmins, merely stating that she met someone outside her family`s social circle and married him. I see that in a lot of marriages that I have seen. It doesn`t have to be a brahmin and gora it could be any other combination.
Anyway love and marriage are complex issues - I`d leave it to one`s personal choice.

HN,

Indeed. Look at some of the Asian authors in Eat A Bowl Of Tea....there are so many different approaches-from sociological to complete post modernism...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

nikki,

what of mukherjee`s have you read? Please demonstrate your actual knowledge of the text being discussed.

Has Amit ever cared to read Bharati Mukherjee? Doesn`t seem so.
Personally I don`t care for her later writing, Jasmine and after, but found her earlier work very interesting. And truthful. Nor do I agree that she can call herself simply an American writer on the lines of Saul Bellow and others - hers is very much a South Asian voice in the US. She`s said she finds Anita Desai`s English too ``Indian`` (in a derogatory sense.) No-one can agree with all her ideas and attitudes. But I can understand why she wants to be thought of as a non-hyphenated American - who would like any hyphens in their identities?

urbashi,

well identity itself is never fixed...hyphen or no hyphen, she is both desi and American...hyphens signify a newer wave of political identity. Mukherjee is in the same group that poet Kimiko Hahn is. Hahn is biracial-Japanese and Anglo parentage. But she calls herself American in the same way Amiri Baraka does-to force Americans to see all people of color as not other....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Saminashah

Have you read Jasmine by Bharati Mukhejee yourself? That novel is about a displaced Hindu Punjabi lady who escaped the violence in 1980`s Punjab. I dont remember any Guyanese woman in that. Unless she is from a sub plot which I have forgotten. I read it ten years ago.

Certainly Chitra Banerji Divakaruni`s novels are easy reading, but I feel much more superficial than Bharati Mukherjee`s.
And I don`t think Naipaul is a fair comparison to either, nor, for quite different reasons, Nirad Chaudhuri.

Blasphemer,

I am really remembering an Indo-Carribean narrator...its been a while for me as well, but certain details stick out for me...and am far away from my books...

Urbashi,

My point about Naipaul is that if people are going to accuse Mukherjee of ``race hate``, Naipaul himself, whom these interactors laud, is as guilty, if not more....

I meant ``Amrita admires Naipaul`s craft`` when I wrote Urbashi....apologies.

Saminasha #27/#43,

You seriously believe that you are making concrete contributions here ?

By the way, share your ``reading is good`` wisdom with wide-eyed undergrads, and
spare me the sanctimony. My remarks are different from Amrita`s and Subroto`s
because they are discussing the author and her work, whereas I am not. You
brought in the issue of desi men and their reaction to Mukherjee and made it fair
game to call you on it.

In the meantime, you are yet to respond to my questions, and I repeat them here:

1) Had Mukherjee been a man and held forth the same views on India/America/
immigrant experience and married a gori, would it elicit a different reaction from
Amit or nikki ?

2) If n number of desi women berate her for the same reasons that Amit or nikki
does, are you willing to retract your statement that this is just about insecure
desi men ?

Since you have put forward a hypothesis/claim, let`s see how well it holds up.

``...Naipaul himself, whom these interactors laud...``

Please show me which interactor has lauded Naipaul here (other than Urbashi
for his technical brilliance, and quite rightly so). Or is this another straw-man
that needs demolishing ?

Amit #23,

Mukherjee and Nirad Chaudhuri are quite different in their worldview. Conflating the
two would be incorrect, even if you disagree with both.

First - the reason why so many immigrant writers write about their immigration or the country they left behind or their assimilation or lack thereof into their new countries is not because of a paucity of imagination. It is rather because the genre of literary fiction demands an increased amount of personal investment in their work and immigration, especially in the days before people were jetting back and forth once a year, was a wrenching experience.

Second - There are a number of authors who write about the less `exotic` migration as you call it. However, exoticism seeps through when the author is faced with an alien experience. A woman from Ohio transplanted into NYC will find it exotic and write it as such. Readers impart a limited sense of exoticism to the books they read. Authors convey most of it. Whether they write from Bhatinda or Boston. Your home can be exotic if viewed correctly.

HN - as a matter of fact, I was thinking of this other anthology edited by Rushdie called the Best of Indian Writing, I think. It was a delightful read and of course controversial because it left out vernaculars (Rushdie being a snob about it) but it did illustrate the shift from coloniial to postcolonial in Indian writing and therefore a lot of immigrant lit was included. As for Letters, you`re preaching to the converted.
And there is one name that few people include but I have to drag in here willy nilly - GV Desani. Here is a novel that takes the South Asian immigrant experience and does something different.

HN/Saminashah/Amit: I have not read the works you have mentioned, hence I cannot comment. Having said that, I have read desi works (I tend to concentrate on those) and see the immigration theme, over and over again. And I cannot imagine that this is the only thing all the authors have experienced. So, one tends to believe they have other motives than simple intellecualization, in mind when they repeatedly write about their desi experience.

Have you ever seen blue eyes in Pakistan? I certainly have. I am sure you must have, as well. TV, magazines, running into tourists, etc. Surely this writer must have, as well. She is a daughter of an Indian Doctor, which implies an upper-middle class upbringing. If nothing else, she must have seen blue eyes, when she went to the US Immigration counter at the Embassy in India.

This is not to say that desi writers aren`t talented. They are amongst the most talented out there. And their experience in two societies gives them a clear edge over other writers. However, people tend to forget the fact that writing and publishing, at its core, is a business. Barring writers like Iqbal and Faiz etc. who are trying to bring about revolutions through their words, the rest are basically earning a living, or supplementing their income, or trying to gain recognition. And the publishing companies are basically trying to raise their stock price.

So when someone says in an interview, or writes in a book, things like they had never seen blue eyes and it had a huge impact on them (not specific to this writer, but just generally), are they saying it a) because it is true b) because they are trying to interrogate the subliminal affects of multi-ethnic physical distinctions across socio-economic and gender-based undiscovered fault-lines c) they are trying to give a good interview and make money by selling exotic ideas in a niche market they have found for themselves.

Amit seems to be implying a) and/or c). Saminashah seems to be implying b). My guess is, in most cases, it isn`t a). For their first book, it maybe b). After that, it is c).

There are desis who have had huge impacts on their lives due to migrations to the West, which dominate their whole psyche and being. They are mostly from villages and would be lost in Lahore, much less New York. They realistically probably never saw blue eyes before. However, they cannot write or read English well enough to publish a book. One could understand if they kept repeating this theme again and again........

plats,

enough with the yang...you havent read her work...I`m not interested in discussing anything further...

Amrita,

Indeed. One could analyse ``western`` culture as an anthropologist...

Amrita #44,

Rushdie`s ``Book of Indian Writing`` was a pleasant read. I never understood why he
included Manto there - perhaps Bashan Singh was the ultimate immigrant.

As for Rushdie being a snob about vernacular literature, I doubt he knows much
about it to make any informed judgment. There`s quite a bit of work in Bengali
(the language that I know) that can hold it`s own against this anthology. Certainly
there would be comparable work in others as well.

Saminasha #48,

Of course you wouldn`t want to continue this, since that would actually mean
substantiating your comments. So much for intellectual integrity. But then, what
else is expected ?

By the way, you haven`t a clue about what I`ve read (since I have never talked
about it). So, stop assuming things.

Plats,

No, I gain absolutely nothing in arguing over these ridiculous claims. I believe Subroto has taken the time to walk Amit thru this...for me its all short hand...and I have yet to see any legitimately female nicks come on and corroborate ``nikki`s`` or Amit`s notions...

am lazily enjoying the interacts between sammi, harish and amrita

did someone say g v desani?;)

cyber hugs

now, where is zeynab?

Saminasha,

Very well, then desist from making ridiculous claims in the future.

By the way, I never claimed that the women agreeing with nikki or Amit are chowk
visitors - but I assure you that they do exist, and they`re quite vocal about this
in personal settings.

By the way, who exactly lauded Naipaul here ?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Romair # 47
I got the impression that you think that people who write for a living do not write as well as those who want to bring in a revolution. If that`s what you meant, than I will have to disagree with you. I think the 20th century produced some of the best Indian writers, like the examples you gave but also let`s not forget R.K. Narayanan. I think for most people from India, the first Indian english they ever read would likely be one by R.K. Narayanan, who wrote it also for a living, but nonetheless easily absorbed and inspirational.

My apologies if I wrongly assumed what you meant.

Plats,

Do you deny that there is a double standard for desi women and men writers? Explain.

Vivek #54: ``I got the impression that you think that people who write for a living do not write as well as those who want to bring in a revolution.``

No, not at all. As I stated, I think many, if not most, of the writers who write about the desi experience are excellent writers. As good or as bad as the revolutionary writers. I have nothing against their, ``writing`` skills.

What I was highlighting is that writing is a business, and they write about the desi migratory experience, over and over again, to create exotic stories, to sell to a foreign audience. The stories are well-written from a writing point of view. However, I think much of the material is exagerated and I really don`t think the imigration experience has had that much of an impact on each and every one of them, as they try to portray.

Going from Dhok Khaba village to New York can be a life-changing and psychologically transforming experience. But going form an upper-middle classe English-medium schooled Lahore (and I assume Delhi also) to New York cannot be that huge of a change that one repeats it again and again............

People do this in other professions, as well. Because it creates exoticism and sells. In fact, if I ever hit it big as an entrprenuere, I have my story all planned:

``I learnt how to take risks while swimming across the Chenab river, to attend school as a kid. We didn`t have electricity in the neighborhood I lived in. When I first saw a tube light in San Francisco, I almost cried. That is when I fell in love with the USA.

I learnt how to negotiate and make deals, while accompanying my mother as she haggled with the local vegetable vendors (in the morning, right before I was getting ready to swim across the Chenab for Math class).....That is how I was able to sell my company to Microsoft for 1 billion dollars``

Romair #58
You have a nice story planned, make sure that you give a discount to chowk subscribers.

I understant what you are trying to say. Writing is a profession like any other, and people are going to write what`s going to help them make the most out of it. There`s nothing wrong with that. Writing is as noble a profession as anything else, and trying to make money does not degrade it. Ofcourse writers have to make sure that they do not overdo it.

Saminasha,

Seldom are two writers evaluated using the same standards, but that is not the point
here. Gender plays a role on occasion. Often times it is a host of other reasons.

But I wonder what that has to do with anything here....

T -

C`mon!!! ``Hatterr`` was a great read!

:)

``Book of Indian Writing``! That`s what it was called. Thanks. Vernacular writing is something that seems to touch off sparks in certain company. I`m surprised no one has yet asked why are we wasting time on Mukherjee, the angrezi writer because the fact she writes in English automatically paints her a traitor. The bigger langugaes, such as Bengali, Tamil, Hindi, Malayalam et al that underwent a kind of renaissance during the independence struggle and the years that followed have a strong and flourishing literary and printing habit. But i read somewhere (The Economist, I think) that languages are dying around the world at the rate of one a day. That is a wrench even if it`s not my langugae thats dying. As for Rushdie - hmm. I have a feeling (completely unsubstantiated, so dont call me on it! :) ) that he is just PO`d at the vernacular writers and their champions who constantly berate him for making money because of his Western market while they live in quiet poverty.

As for the immigrant experience - let me say this again. Back then, in the 60s, immigration was considerably more poignant than it is today. Just moving from Delhi to say, Madras took four days by a very slow and dusty train. No one spoke as much English and therefore communication was at a premium (I`m talking of inside India). America wasnt the desi heartland it is today. The exodus to the Gulf countries hadnt begun. The bourgeousie were all headed to England. So yes, there was a lot of material. Then as the next waves of immigration took place and these writers came in contact with the newcomers, a new lot of stories emerged. My immigrant experience is vastly different from my father`s under Nehru. And no, there is no dearth of interest in these stories and will not be as long as world demographics continue to change.

What Rushdie said was that there were no good literature in the languages, or if there were, they were ill serviced by bad to poor translations into English. That caveat, actually has some merit. Now that sub-continental writing has/is reached/ing critical mass, I believe that would one area that publisher`s might want to attck.

There are some brilliant writings in the languages. And, some later translations make Mahashweta Devi, O V Vijayan, Tendulkar, karnad, etc look like vertical invaders with their power, and freshness of perspective/theme etc. There is also the rising instances of bi-lingual writers like Vilas sarang/ Kiran Nagarkar / Paul Zakaria / et all. Methinks, its time to role out the Linda Ashers and Gregory Rabassas of the sub continent.

Re:Romair#58

Yaar, you are a natural :-)!! Just get in line behind Rushdie, Naipaul, Mukherjee, Lahiri etc.

Anyway, the way things are shaping up in the US, especially on the east coast, pretty soon the American goras will be writing about their exotic immigrant experience as they visit Jackson Heights and Edison, NJ :-). Man, those places are packed with desis. Just check out Menlo Park Mall in NJ over the weekends - only desis and chaptas all over.

Plats,

Look at the interacts on this particular board and tell me what the ``genre`` of critique was based on. Secondly, google and read the essay ``Guarded Tongues``; I`d be interested in reading your response.

Amrita,

And of course there are Indian and other desi writers who point out that English was the language of their home community-in India.

#32 Harish talking of Raja Rao have you read his Kanthapura? I know everybody talks about ``The Serpent & The Rope`` as his magnum opus but to my mind Kanthapur holds its own as a book of great lyrical beauty.
Nissim Ezekiel now thats a name not heard so frequently these days. We had this one in our syllabus -

Night of the Scorpion - Nissim Ezekiel
``I remember the night my mother was stung by a scorpion. Ten hours
of steady rain had driven him to crawl beneath a sack of rice.
Parting with his poison -- flash of diabolic tail in the dark room --
he risked the rain again. The peasants came like swarms of flies
and buzzed the Name of God a hundred times to paralyse the Evil One.
With candles and with lanterns throwing giant scorpion shadows
on the sun-baked walls they searched for him; he was not found.
They clicked their tongues. With every movement the scorpion made
his poison moved in Mother`s blood, they said. May he sit still,
they said. May the sum of evil balanced in this unreal world
against the sum of good become diminished by your pain.
May the poison purify your flesh of desire, and your spirit of ambition,
they said, and they sat around on the floor with my mother in the centre.
the peace of understanding on each face. More candles, more lanterns,
more neighbours, more insects and the endless rain.
My mother twisted through and through groaning on a mat.
My father, sceptic, rationalist, trying every curse and blessing,
powder, mixture, herb, and hybrid. He even poured a little paraffin
upon the bitten toes and put a match to it.
I watched the flame feeding on my mother. I watched the holy man
perform his rites to tame the poison with incantation.
After twenty hours it lost its sting.``

``My mother only said:
Thank God the scorpion picked on me and spared my children.``

I totally missed this board. HN, His Salmanness is a SNOB with a capital S, when it comes to vernacular writing. He commented about the quality of vernacular writing and when questioned said where are the names internationally? I mean, if there arent the names, how can you conclude the quality of the writing from this? He is not a first year college student, so he should me a bit more responsible in his comments.There can be other reasons why the names aint famous internationally and one of them can very well be lack of translation.
But yeah, as Amrita says, he may very well have made this comment due to pot shots taken on him and others .Here is an excellent lecture by the great Vikram Chandra (His REPR and LOLIB both are superb) . I have posted this article before but this is well worth posting again.
http://www.bostonreview.net/BR25.1/chandra.html very very interesting read.
plats8, Samina does sometimes intrapolate her real world experience, but that doesnt mean she is a phony.
Now, since we are talking about vernacular writing, do we read them? When did you guys read the last vernacular book and which was it? Just curious, not trying to prove any point.

Rahul #66 His Salmanness may be a snob as far as vernacular literature but nobody can pick on an accent like him. The marathi character in ``The Ground Beneath Her Feet`` and I swear I could hear him talk eyela!

#63 Harish on vernacular writers..sir me..sir me (jumping up and down like excited schoolboy)..I hate to hijack this board away from the topic of immigrant writers but there is whole world of Indian - sorry guys apart from Ms Sidhwa not read any Pakistani writers and Manto was humara Indian writer ;-)
But your point is valid ``There are some brilliant writings in the languages``
Pather Panchali (Song of the Road) By Bibhutibhusan Bandopadhyay this is a novel of rare beauty (if thats not cliched enough I am sorry). A must (as compared to Mast) read.
Chemmeen by Thakazhi Sivasankara Pillai Stories/plays by Jaywant Dalvi particularly Sandhya Chayya. Works by Ismat Chugtai. Punjabi writers like Amrita Pritam, Bedi.
Vaikom Basheer - the one availabe is ``Me grandad `ad an elephant``
The sahitya academy has done a good job in providing translations of works by the sahitya academu award winners (at very affordable prices may I add) -> http://www.sahitya-akademi.org/

In fact the book fair in Delhi was one of my great pleasures in life especially in getting translations of Indian fiction - my first date with my wife to be and I dragged her through the book fair for 3.5 hours :-)

Subroto, I too like His Salmanness.Praising Midnights Children is passe so I will let it go. Talking about ``The ground beneath her feet ``, I did not enjoy the novel as much as I did Pankaj Mishras criticism of it.Here it is.This stuff is like Tendulkar blasting Henry Olonga though otherwise the roles may be reversed.
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=19990322&fname=booksb&sid=1
You might have to register on outlook for this, but it is well worth it.
Incidentally, because of this article, I read Mishra`s the Romantics and I thought that he has tried to go consciously into the opposite direction of Rushdie. He ie a better critic than a writer.
Also, I dont think we even need to give examples from vernacular literature to prove any point, though we may as well do it to show our appreciation . I have been reading Bangla books in Hindi translation and Hindi prose and poetry, and in neither, there is any shortage of world class writing. Even Bangla pulp fiction like Bimal Mitra and Sunil Gangopadhyay is superb. Hindi poets like Muktibodh and Nagarjun are on par with the greatest in the world. I personally would rate Muktibodh along someone like Auden,but thats just me.
Incidentally, not all immigrant writing can be classified as such. Amitava Ghosh, who is for all pratical purposes,a Bengali writer in English, free of mostly any immigrant angst and is to my mind one of the finest.

why picture of woman look like kind of chinese type. anybody noted.
white is ok and right. no wrong.
it is desire of every man and women in pakistan to marry white if not real white then atleast wheatish, its ok sir, nothing wrong. MQM dark indians of KHI dream of maarying wheatisjh jat man and woman and work on farm sindhi and punjabi etc
(free verse) not poetry but verse

i am going to be glorious white
i will die but beautiful
after dieing i will white after judgement day
jesus, muhammad ( pbuh) both
were dark like coal
but we think they must be milk white.
punjab lion GM khar kalu his heram white
bb milk white asif mqm kalu
general mqm kalu but sahiba blond hair
EXpak marry milk white fat buffolow
Expak prey allah for milk white Grandchildren
KIll me but has milk white grandchildren
Imran bada Khan marry white
Femine of good milkwhite woman in PK
Rajubhayya Kalu Soniya milkwhite
KiaserE hind Mrs Ghandhiji milk white
Follow the leader, RajuBhayya and Badakhan
white advantage Indi paki
breed white white is better
if darky Mrs gandhiji hay get out
Milky soniyaji be my empress
They say hum hay kale fir bhi dilwale
get out diwale , get out kale.
If kalu beauty why not put coal powder
Real sacrafice man to marry more dark
dark man women more than ugly bad
curse to be kalu, blessing gora
arab african kalu
called habshi kalu
white khomani but go Abadan
dark irani hated by white aryan Irani
dark hindus called gypsy in europa land of
H (human right) and justice.
Ugly is white is good
ugly is bad
Ugly dark is worst
Hari is bad
Ugly hari is bad
Ugly dark hari is slave.
wear whit Goggles
genetic problemo for expak
marry white bufflow pray lot
But baby is bufflow dark like expak
blame himself being Kalu

Conclusion in PK it is best to be white, better to be wheatish than black even though black complexion is connected with honesty and other good deshi qualities. Marry little better little whiter.

rahul:

good point you raised on ``immigrant angst``...it relates to the writer`s persona...personally i think it is unfair to attribute this angst to all witers...desi or otherwise...

subroto:

re: the vernacular...aag ka darya ..qurratul ain haider`s is a masterpiee...and if you own manto we will take munshi prem chand...fair?

another point i raised on another board...when judging writer`s in english i do not box them into desi or african or asian...believe any writer writing in english should be judged on a level playing field...comments?

anyone read zulfikar ghose?

rgds

t

ps: amrita: good luck with the block...just keep plugging and before you realise you`ll be out of the woods;)

Saminasha #65,

I don`t know how to label the criticism of Mukherjee`s interview here. Some interactors
thought that she was unduly overplaying her immigrant angst of the 60`s to create
a literary space for herself. I have read and re-read the interacts several times, and not
once did I find any desi male take a dig at her gender. Their critique would be equally
valid (or invalid) even if they were desi females, or the target was a desi man. Basically,
one cannot see a gender bias or insecurity of desi men here, unless one assigns that
motive preemptively.

Similarly you mentioned praise of Naipaul by desi men to say that he is far more guilty
of ``race hate``. The fact is, there`s not one desi man who`s lauded Naipaul here. How
is this not a straw-man argument ?

Will take a look at the essay when I have some time - thanks for the suggestion.

Rahul_capri #66,

I happen to routinely read Bengali novels and short stories - most of it pulp. Not trying
to prove a point, just that it is the language I`m most comfortable in. By the way, Sunil
Gangopadhyay`s major claim to fame is/was as a poet; some of his poetry is really
superb. Don`t know how well they translate.

By the way, I never claimed Samina was a phoney. I do feel that her ideology looks
for non-existent contests in some cases. Please take a look at my response above.

Subroto,

Sahitya academy brought to translations about the same hardiness that Bata brand brought to school shoes!

The bad translations available are all Sahitya Academy`s. Try Katha, the hot mid-term publishing stock I would recommend! They have already translated the most important contemporary language writers, they have already exhumed Basheer``s genius...personally...he is the Sub-continent`s Borges...and some extrordinary material from the languages.

Now, this board is really getting exciting...high time tooo!

Rahul/Subroto..(Pahadi):) and other old musafirs of this board.

I have no fear about Salman. The man has made a deserving name for himself, has run out of steam fictionally from the Moor`s Last Sigh, and the only thing he still holds my interest is through his non-fiction. That is a strictly personal assessment.

As far as his assessment of regional writing goes, it is rather sad for a global literary star to have to cede so much to publishing demands that he actually thought that the readers might NOT notice. As in enough readers might NOT notice. It is ridiculously stupid assessment of the English speaking junta in the diaspora to think that there is nobody other than people-like-us who read in English. That was true perhaps some ten years back.

Rushdie, IMO did not challenge himself as a writer, or worse, did not attempt to keep himself in writerly shape, like, say, Marquez did. If one sees Marquez, the man kept leavening his fictions with constant non-fictions. So did Kundera, with more esoteric essays perhaps. But Rushdie`s essays were more newscolumns than meditations, unlike Kundera`s. And his non-fiction is pure fiction...I guess.

Vikram Seth is the only writer of some reput who is challenging himself, other than Amitav Ghosh.

Oh, I think vernacular and immigrant lit have a lot of meeting ground. It`s interesting you bring up Pak vern lit - Inds hear a lot about the death of the reading habit in Pak and the decline in publishing and so on and so forth. Is that only in Eng or is it in vern as well? In fact, is it true in the first place?

Eng as vern is something dear to my heart, Samina. Because it`s true for me as it is for millions of other urbanites in South Asia I`m sure. However, I can see why it drives defenders of vern up the wall - there are languages out there which have a proud lit tradition and a lot of emerging writers who are doing exciting stuff but dont belong to the big language with pots of money and committed readership category unlike say Malayalam or Bengali. Manipuri for example, is one of these I believe. Small presses are the answer but you need backing for it in most cases and such backing usually comes at the tail end of political movements. Had there been no freedom struggle in Bengal, lit there would have been on shakier ground, Had there been no communism in Kerala, Mal lit would have largely vanished.

The majority of vern lit was read in school and most of it was chosen like medicine - it was good for us! what a terrible way to introduce kids to lit. But sometimes they slipped in a couple of writers with whom I`ve kept the faith. I dont read my own native language (I read Hindi instead) but my mother has a habit of reading it aloud to me. Very pleasant and great stuff. I make an effort to read poetry however - but again, I dont read Urdu or Persian (the kind of poetry I adore) and therefore hunt around for transliterations. Person whose name I cant remember - he wrote the translation of Kabhi Kabhi on this site - recommended Urdupoetry.com. Blessings on his house forever more!

Nissim Ezekiel is wonderful but Dom Moraes I love. Bi-lingual writers are again amazing creatures. I can write in Hindi but it`s a lot more commercial sounding (no, not Bollywood - more street patois) than the beautifully crafted peices I habitually read that make a virtue of verbosity a la The Wasteland. It`s too frustrating. Poor translations are going to be around for a long time until established writers choose to undertake that task themselves. For example Beowulf pre and post Heaney are two differnt texts.

In closing, the snobbish Mr Rushdie. If you were Salman Rushdie - wouldnt you be a snob?

Vivek/Amit #: ``You have a nice story planned, make sure that you give a discount to chowk subscribers.``

The story is all planned out. Now the events just have to occur. I think I will add the, ``hadn`t seen blue eyes before,`` to my story. That is a good one. I am always on the lookout for such comments.

The first part of the story is mine. But the second part actually belongs to Sabir Bhatia, the young Indian entreprenuer who started Hotmail and sold it to Microsoft for hundreds of millions. Microsoft is known for intimidating small company owners with lawyers etc. during buyout negotiations. Bhatia`s negotiations with them have landed legendary status. Since he was able to get an excellent deal. I read an interview, in which, when asked, how he was able to negotiate the deal so cooly and profitably he replied that, as a child, he accompanied his mother when she haggled with vegetable sellers in India. That is where he learnt the art.

``Anyway, the way things are shaping up in the US, especially on the east coast, pretty soon the American goras will be writing about their exotic immigrant experience``

I was listening to a discussion, on the table behind me, during lunch. They were debating the problems the West (specifically the USA) is facing and how it should handle them. In the end, one guy commented, ``I don`t know why we are worried about all this, in a hundred years the whole world with be Chinese and Indians, anyways.``

If you want to see the next den of desis, then forget USA. Come to Canada. The ex-governor of B.C was an Indian. He is now the most important federal minister. In my neighborhood, there are eight federal constituences. Five of them are in direct control of desis. Three by Sikhs and two bu Pakistanis. Even the candidates that lose are desis. The Pakistani candidate that won from our constituency had two desis opposing him from the other two main parties. If you are not a Sikh, then forget about getting elected from Brampton. The potential leader of the opposition, a non-Sikh, lost from Sikh land.

And all of these areas are not ghettos. They have amongst the higher, per capita incomes, in Canada. Microsoft, Oralce, and Nortel, amongst other companies have their headquarters in these areas...........

temporal #72: ``anyone read zulfikar ghose? ``

I have started on him. His South American stuff. He is the latest addition into my planned ``largest library of Pakistani English literature.`` It fits into a bookcase and is divided into four shelves: 1) Very good 2) Average 3) Below Average 4) Would not have gotten published had she did not have a rich dad or husband.

So far, there is one book in shelf 4. Nearly all the others are on shelf 3. Let`s see where Zulfiqar fits in. He certainly has written a lot of books. There is even a writer who has written a book about the writing of Zulfiqar...........He seems to be one guy who actually hasn`t exploited the immgratory experience as his main thrust of writing..........

Amrita #75
``In closing, the snobbish Mr Rushdie. If you were Salman Rushdie - wouldnt you be a snob?``
I dont know what exactly do you mean by that, but if PadmaLakshmi comes with the package, I would certainly be snobbish.
Your points about the vern are well noted. I would like to make one more point. Vern is sometimes part of a social movement, and that has to be in vern only. There is a lot of Marathi dalit literature, for them English is an eltist language. Can I imagine Nagarjun writing his poorbi marxist poetry in English? I cant. And this is not to preclude the English writers from writing that way, only it is less likely. So, vern lieterature represents a very important social canon of sub continental literature. Without that the picture is incomplete.
plats8 #73 , I have always had a very warm corner for Bangla lit.I think saratchandra was a writer way way ahead of his tiime. And my ``Not to prove a point`` was about my question itself. Not towards the answer. as regards Sunil , I have loved some of his novels.Bimal Mitra, though very good, became quite predictable in the end. All his novels were similar,
Temporal #72 About your English question, I suggest you read the Vikram Chandra article posted earlier. Some desi english writers have done funny stuff with english.They say it is their English and they are free to do whatever they choose with it.
HN #76 Please tell me something about Basheer , as a great fan of Borges I would like to know about him. I think that Sahitya Academy has done some service at least, many writers have been better known because of them, like thakazi shivshankar pillay.
About Manto, please dont argue over the person who wrote toba tek singh :-)
I remember reading an anecdote though. Manto was being referred to as ``hamara manto`` by some pakistani delegates in a literary conference. This irked Ismat no end and she rose and roared ``Manto hamara hai!!! Who wants to argue with me over that? ``
And since vern plugging is going on, anyone who reads Hindi should read Rahi Masoom raza`s novels. Topi Shukla, Aadha Gaon ....I rate them with the bests I have ever read.
Also, since the talk about translation is going on, I think it is fair to mention transliteration..Hindi and Urdu are basically the same languages.There is so much stuff that we are denied just because of the chasm of scripts. I think Hindi lit in Nastaliq should have a decent enough market in Pakistan and vice versa.

paging bina, shandy, jawahara

rahul:

will read the 16 page p/o of vikram later...maybe... am expecting company...and i hope it covers the `angst` query i posed;)

...i`d rather have the outpourings from the `fire in the belly`...that certain enigma ..that `passion` that drives...rather than `angst` ...but yes, let me read vikram...

romair:

good luck with zulfikar...he is under-rated...and shuns the scratch-me-back crowd...

re: shelving...shelve it:)

...we`ve exchanged posts over this many times...to wit...i do not catalogue english writers based on their desi origins...

rgds

t

Re:HN#75

Since you mention Marquez, I was wondering if you have read his book - ``Love in the time of Cholera``? It is definitely the most amazing book I have ever read about human relationships.

plats8 #73 About Samina , as I already mentioned, she does intrapolate her real life experieneces into chowk. It will make more sense to you if you regard this as a coffee table discussion rather than a court case.

Rahul,

Careful....not everyone`s sarcasm meter is so finely tuned....


Plats,

Have you read the essay Guarded Tongues? Yes or no? Its quite accessible.

Hmm... As far as judging writers on a level field goes - there is a difference between The English Novel and A Novel in English. Since we are talking imm lit and angst, has anyone read Trainspotting? There`s an English Novel about characters stuck in a British sub culture. On the other hand Amitav Ghosh writes Novels in English. But yes, in the end you turn pages because you like what you`ve read so far, unless you`re one of those people who like to prominently display bookshelfs full of authors one ought to read because the New York Times tells you so. And since Marquez has already popped up, Isabel Allende is an education in writing without angst about imm in both, her novels as well as her wonderful nonfiction.

And yes, vern lit does form a very imp weave in the subcontinental social fabric. Problem is, fresh blood is a necessity if it is to survive and there are few writers today who can afford to write full time for the peanuts a lot of vern lit pays you. Not all , but a lot. That said, Melville among others tried the part time route and came out okay. And generations of women did it too. BTW, still waiting to find out if the decline of vern is emerging on both sides of the border. Or is it something Indian? Too bad there arent any Chinese on this board. UNless one of you reads Mandarin or Cantonese in your free time?

As for SR, there has to be some compensation for being hunted down, banned, reviled and even dissed by Naipaul in print. Money could be it but I think snobbery is much better. And I`ll read his new book when it comes out later this year - but I`ll get it from the library! :)

temporal#80
Vikram`s article, among many other things, is more about the second part of your post #72 . The language, metaphors and subjects used by desi writers, and the attempt of their classification thereby.
As far as ``immigrant angst`` is concerned,or for that matter any other criteria, I hold this view , that writings can and should be classified according to their subject matter, but not according to the writers origins, and it certainly doesnt fit in a group as globally pervasive and hetereogenous as Indian Writing in English.In that case, sooner or later, some of the writers who found themselves as de facto members of such groups ,feel uncomfortable and rightly so. Thats why I mentioned Amitava Ghosh, who made his resentment towards this type of classfication pretty clear when he withdrew his book from the commonwealth writers prize.
Nevertheless,there is a distinct trend of an Indian English peppered with many Indian terms and phrases that was seen among others in Rushdie.This type of analysis may be useful from some angles,such as the recognition of a formal flavour of language and the official inclusion of some words and phrases into contemporary lexicon.

#76 Harish ``Sahitya academy brought to translations about the same hardiness that Bata brand brought to school shoes!``
But the fact still remains that they were still good for your sole. The academy translations remain good for the soul. True not the sole arbiter but still an exposure to a world that while so near was so far away. There are other publishing houses that are publishing translations of vernacular lit. Penguin India had published apart from Manto, Basheer, Verma (hindi) etc. Then there is Rupa, Kali for women. Alas most of my books are still in my